Using "boys" to speak to everyone really needs to stop, and this is why.

[deftones r cool]

I commonly refer to my gf and her friend(s) as "guys" when they're over, all women.

Like, "hey guys, check this out" or something

My group of dude friends and I constantly refer to our weekly hangout as "boys night" and say things like "let's go boys", "you boys ready?"

However, if a woman or non-binary person were in the group (say one of our girlfriends), I guess I'd still say "guys" but not "boys"

Not sure why that's different.

 

[AugmentedDivine]

 

[Sub Boss]

I thought everyone mostly used 'guys' not boys 🤔

 

[astro]

What about someone's race? Again, you're trying to say that someone's identity is just tied to their gender, when their identity could be other things. Are you gonna tell a male POC that they've never felt under represented?

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Why are you applying this much pressure? It stands to reason that a person belonging to a group who has had massive representation all their lives would not immediately feel threatened if we suggest we refer to everyone as girls.

If we actually DID that, though, you KNOW there would be push back. Look at things like Captain Marvel having a female lead, with an actress who speaks up for female representation...

 

[Detail]

I use the word everyone when playing online, so for example I would say "where does everyone want to drop?" Or if playing with one person I will say "Where would you like to drop?"

I tend to just avoid gender terms altogether that way I will avoid upsetting people, it wouldn't upset me personally but I don't want to upset someone else because that doesn't seem fair.

 

[Mhj]

It's pretty common because of the loss as you as a second person plural pronoun in early modern English.

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Didn't know that it once existed. I remember having great difficulties wrapping my head around not having that pronoun when learning English.

 

[Lyrick]

Some of these replies are pretty privileged. I work in a customer facing service job and the very first time I misgendered someone using "guys" I was massively embarassed. I could see the look on their face when it happened and I promised from then on I'd try my absolute best to remove the plural "guys" from my speech and start using "folks" or "everyone" instead. I'm not perfect and still do it on occasion but I make the effort every day in all interactions, in person or otherwise.

Saying it has grown to become non-gendered is deflecting especially in the light that there are some in this very thread who are saying that it is hurtful, embarassing, or uncomfortable when it is said to them.

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You should have had an oxford English dictionary at your disposal, then you could have educated the recipient of your address that the term is non-gendered and saved yourself a ton of completely unwarranted embarrassment.

 

[Clickypen Champion]

I've only heard females use the word 'boys' when assuming everyone near them is male, as a way to draw attention to themselves as female...

I say the word "guys" or "folks" or "friends". Not trying to antagonize anyone non-binary, it's just the vernacular to quickly, efficiently, discuss what to do next and grab everyone's attention in a group. I've only ever said 'my boi' ironically when referring to silly NPC's "My Boi Kalameet" etc.

 

[HotHamBoy]

But what about "guys"? Is that the same?

While i'm sure there are people that would take issue with it, everyone i know of all stripes and gender-identification uses "guys" as a general term for the people in the room.

You should have had an oxford English dictionary at your disposal, then you could have educated the recipient of your address that the term is non-gendered and saved yourself a ton of completely unwarranted embarrassment.

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Oxford English Dictionary defines "Guy" as "a man" tho...

 

[Tawpgun]

I thought everyone mostly used 'guys' not boys 🤔

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"boys" is used a lot in team based gaming, because it is used a lot in sports as well. Coaches and captains will address a team as boys.

Where we droppin boys became a sort of meme phrase.

Thats why.

In every day life, most people use guys.

 

[ArrogantBastard]

Not sure if addressed...I have a few times used, boi and or lets go bois. Is that problematic? I don't even mean it as a gendered term, more of a general.

 

[L Thammy]

I think it's a valid complaint. It might get less attention because it's not as clearly offensive or aggressive as some other phrases that needlessly exclude people.

It might be a challenge, but a lot of us who grew up on the playground in the nineties and earlier have put in effort to remove "gay" from our speech, so I don't think this is any harder.

 

[astro]

Okay, I'm out for a while as I actually wanted to play some Division 2 tonight...

If anyone has a question they really want me to answer, please PM me. I won't be working back through all the replies ITT.

 

[BossLackey]

Yeh, quick test:

How many of you defending the use of Boys would be happy if we replaced it with Girls? Be honest.

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You know how many times I've been in a group of males and someone referred to us as "girls"? Probably dozens of times in my life. Not that these are the same thing, because clearly the people doing so are intentionally flipping it to try to be funny (whether they are or aren't). In fact, in that case, it's meant to be offensive (or ribbing, whatever). Again, I'm not comparing the two situations at all, but it is a fact.

In the cases you state, it is in no way shape or form intended to be hurtful. That's the big problem I have with this.

When I was a kid, I said "that's gay" allllll the time. I called people "fags" allllll the time. Not because I disliked homosexuals. I never really gave them much thought one way or another. It was because at the time, those words meant "bad". I stopped saying those things because I realized it wasn't right. Those words are hate speech derived from decades of homophobia and the hating of homosexuals. I didn't and don't hate homosexuals, so I stopped saying those things. I broke the habit. I realized I most likely said it within earshot of a gay man or woman several times, and I felt awful thinking about that.

There have been many times in my life where I have been in a group of people, and knew someone in that group that was homosexual, and someone from outside the group would say "that's gay" and I would feel really embarrassed, even if I didn't know either person that well. I knew it struck a negative chord with that person. Even if it wasn't meant to be harmful. It struck the chord all the same.

The problem I have with this whole "boys" thing, is that it simply doesn't have the history that those other words do. It doesn't have the hate behind it that they do.

If someone in my group told me to stop saying boys (as I said in other post, I don't actually say "boys" very often, but "guys") because it made them feel uncomfortable, then I would absolutely do so.

The difference is, this is a message board with thousands of people.

 

[Einchy]

Why are you applying this much pressure? It stands to reason that a person belonging to a group who has had massive representation all their lives would not immediately feel threatened if we suggest we refer to everyone as girls.

If we actually DID that, though, you KNOW there would be push back. Look at things like Captain Marvel having a female lead, with an actress who speaks up for female representation...

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I'm talking directly to you saying this:

" When you're not part of a group of people who has been under represented/denied, the idea of it won't really hurt you. You have so much representation and affirmation of your identity that you're bullet proof here."

You imply "identity" is just gender and if you're a male then you've not felt under represented. Again, would you say that males who are POC have not felt under represented since they're males?

 

[Nax]

This is why y'all is such a great word.

 

[astro]

I'm talking directly to you saying this:

" When you're not part of a group of people who has been under represented/denied, the idea of it won't really hurt you. You have so much representation and affirmation of your identity that you're bullet proof here."

You imply "identity" is just gender and if you're a male then you've not felt under represented. Again, would you say that males who are POC have not felt under represented since they're males?

Click to shrink...

I don't imply that, in context we're talking about this one aspect of identity. That's the context of this thread.

 

[pleaseinsertdisctwo]

Literally no one I know uses boys, everyone uses guys.

This is why y'all is such a great word.

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It is. I just refrain from using it so I don't sound like a hillbilly

 

[marrec]

"boys" is used a lot in team based gaming, because it is used a lot in sports as well. Coaches and captains will address a team as boys.

Where we droppin boys became a sort of meme phrase.

Thats why.

In every day life, most people use guys.

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Ya this is very much driven by memey culture.

 

[Velezcora]

If someone specfically asks me to not use it around them then I'm happy to oblige.
I also use "dude" and "man" in the same way. I don't like the word "folks". I know a lot of people use it and it bugs me. Just because it sounds weird. Like "folks" sounds old time-y to me.

 

[Einchy]

I don't imply that, in context we're talking about this one aspect of identity.

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Then why say they've not felt that feeling before?

 

[DrDeckard]

I have lots of girls that are friends that use the term "guys" when speaking to their friends of different genders.

I do get what your saying OP. It would be great if people just try to use different words. Like what's up peeps. Hey all. Let's go people etc.

 

[Velezcora]

Yeh, quick test:

How many of you defending the use of Boys would be happy if we replaced it with Girls? Be honest.

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I already do this sometimes.

You girls are slow. Get with the times!

 

[Angst]

That's because these people have never had to question/defend their identity in the same way.

Look, this is not an attack on people. This is a polite request to listen to those of us this affects. I don't understand why so many are dismissive here.

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Would it be fine with you if someone continued to keep it in their lexicon but was careful to not use it around people it directly hurt?

 

[TheMissingLink]

I use "gang."

"Alright gang, let's gooooo!" or whatnot.

It's actually way more fun to say.

 

[Deleted member 33412]

What about the impact on telling people not to use the term "boys", isnt this all just a bit excessive? Like at least at first glance my first reaction is negative, to this sort of thing but I am probably not as informed as I should be. I feel this is the zeitgeist pendulum just moving too far in the one direction. I feel there IS a difference between calling people the n word, Fgt word or delibrately misgendering someone versus saying "Lets go wreck some shit boys." I mean its generally used ironically...

 

[Sub Boss]

"boys" is used a lot in team based gaming, because it is used a lot in sports as well. Coaches and captains will address a team as boys.

Where we droppin boys became a sort of meme phrase.

Thats why.

In every day life, most people use guys.

Click to shrink...

Oh, yeah im not into sport/multiplayer gamming, sounds annoying if its overused like that

 

[astro]

Then why say they've not felt that feeling before?

Click to shrink...

It's about this specific aspect of identity, which they have not felt before.

That doesn't mean other aspects of their identity they have felt might not help them empathize here.

 

[HotHamBoy]

"boys" is used a lot in team based gaming, because it is used a lot in sports as well. Coaches and captains will address a team as boys.

Where we droppin boys became a sort of meme phrase.

Thats why.

In every day life, most people use guys.

Click to shrink...

Ah, good thing i avoid all organized gaming of any kind

 

[Neiteio]

I've gone from relative indifference to thinking, yeah, I could see how this would wear on someone who is sensitive about their gender identity, since the way they see themselves isn't how society immediately perceives them. That would wear on anyone after awhile. Everyone just wants to feel accepted, which is why I always say we should just value each other for the kindness in our hearts.

These words are a tough habit to break, though. And sometimes one may assume that someone who looks like a biological male/female is also cisgender and/or heterosexual. Or one may assume that a word said with no ill intent or aggression wouldn't be taken hurtfully.

It's worth trying to be more thoughtful about one's words and assumptions, then. But it will take patient communication from those affected.

Kudos to the OP for making this thread and expanding some minds.

 

[L Thammy]

It is. I just refrain from using it so I don't sound like a hillbilly

Click to shrink...

In my experience, y'all is also common among old Indian ladies. So maybe you could sound like one of those instead.

 

[astro]

Last reply... (then I block the thread for the evening! - as I said, PM me if you really want your question answered)

Would it be fine with you if someone continued to keep it in their lexicon but was careful to not use it around people it directly hurt?

Click to shrink...

There is nothing wrong using the word boys to refer to a group of actual boys. If you and your mates are all male, and all identify that way, of course that's ok!

 

[Lyrick]

But what about "guys"? Is that the same?

While i'm sure there are people that would take issue with it, everyone i know of all stripes and gender-identification uses "guys" as a general term for the people in the room.



Oxford English Dictionary defines "Guy" as "a man" tho...

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And it defines Guys as "People of either sex"

 

[HotHamBoy]

In retrospect, i think "guys" and "dude" have been unofficially made gender-neutral by popular, contemporary usage.

Last reply... (then I block the thread for the evening! - as I said, PM me if you really want your question answered)



There is nothing wrong using the word boys to refer to a group of actual boys. If you and your mates are all male, and all identify that way, of course that's ok!

Click to shrink...

Why are you blocking the thread you made is my question

And it defines Guys as "People of either sex"

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The plural being gender neutral while the singular is gender-specific is quite odd and confusing.

 

[jontin]

I think referring to groups of adults as boys or girls is weird. I use 'guys' as a catch all, and would be fine if it was replaced with 'ladies.' As long as I know I'm being addressed

 

[The Fabled Englishman]

I don't imply that, in context we're talking about this one aspect of identity. That's the context of this thread.

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What you did was insinuate that the people who didn't have a problem with being referred to by female pronouns couldn't possibly be members of minority groups in their own right.

The gendered pronouns issue is a tricky one - and not just in the case of the typically-cited case of trans people. For instance, female-gendered pronouns ('girls' or 'queens') are pretty commonplace in the queer community when a person is obviously referring to males and the basis of the practice is both cultural and political. It's a way of reclaiming the historical bases of abuse and oppression which the gay community has faced.

 

[Neiteio]

Since I've already made my thoughtful and sincere replies, please indulge me a moment's goofiness as I suggest we just call everyone Neiteios.

I am the ultimate lifeform, after all. Incredibly humble too.

 

[astro]

What you did was insinuate that the people who didn't have a problem with being referred to by female pronouns couldn't possibly be members of minority groups in their own right.

Click to shrink...

I can accept that, and even though it wasn't my intent I can understand the impact. I'll be sure to correct that in future.

 

[denpanosekai]

Edit: I will try to do better/say something else, I think saying "humans" would be a fun alternative.

Click to shrink...

I'm in software engineering (actually postgresql stuff) and I definitely use "humans" all the time: human-input, human-in-the-loop, etc. It started as a means to differentiate from "background processes", "business logic", etc, but now it's just "humans" all the time instead of Users, Customers, Clients, etc ;)

Also, in the mining industry "men" is used a lot to refer to the workforce. Obviously man-hours, man-month, etc as a unit of time, but also man-down and missing-man alarms.

 

[hikarutilmitt]

Here's the thing on what you said above though --

As I mentioned before, I'm a lifelong TEXAN and have never lived outside this state. In my over 40 years on earth, I have *never* once heard or witnessed in real life someone objecting to "you guys". So doesn't that depend on where you grew up and who you're around?

Different states, different countries, different religions, across the world, can all react differently with varying cultures & behaviors. That term is definitely not objectionable around here.

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No! Don't admit you're Texan! Every time we admit that we get labeled as awful automatically!

 

[Einchy]

What you did was insinuate that the people who didn't have a problem with being referred to by female pronouns couldn't possibly be members of minority groups in their own right.

Click to shrink...

Exactly.

Like, people's identity and their feelings of being under represented or denied anything isn't just tied to their gender.

 

[marrec]

Since I've already made my thoughtful and sincere replies, please indulge me a moment's goofiness as I suggest we just call everyone Neiteios.

I am the ultimate lifeform, after all. Incredibly humble too.

Click to shrink...

It doesn't exactly roll off the tongue, sorry to say.

 

[Neiteio]

No! Don't admit you're Texan! Every time we admit that we get labeled as awful automatically!

Click to shrink...

You Texans have cowboy hats and like barbecues, what's not to love

 

[Aniki]

I use "peeps" most of the time to address everyone. It's gender neutral and fits in most cases.

 

[astro]

Exactly.

Like, people's identity and their feelings of being under represented or denied anything isn't just tied to their gender.

Click to shrink...

Again, that was not my intent and I think you know that.

However, this is also about intent vs impact so I have rightly conceded and updated the specific post with the word gender for precision.

If you're happy with this conclusion let me know, this is the last thing I wanted to clear up ITT before I bail for the night.

 

[Deleted member 49535]

Comparing using "hey guys" to saying something like "this is retarded/gay" as if they were equally harmful is certainly something.

 

[Deleted member 9479]

I've found myself using "people" instead of either "boys" which I've never used really as a catchall, and "guys" which I've definitely used as a catchall. Not really out of trying, but it's been happening with my vocab for quite a while I think.

 

[How About No]

Do not worry, dude is super neutral at this point.

Click to shrink...

eh, but not universally.

I'm in some female/trans/enby spaces and the use of "dude" does make some uncomfortable

You're thinking about this in terms of intention instead of impact.

People say and do all kinds of things and not intend to hurt someone else. That doesn't mean they don't. Probably in your lifetime you have known people who used homophobic language or derogatory terms for differently-abled people to describe things they don't like. But people have largely stopped using language like this because, regardless of how it is intended, it has a negative impact on the people around them. We now have a different and healthier expectation from others as a result.

The request in this thread is not as severe of a case. This situation is more about courtesy, visibility, and respect. But it's the same idea that people use language they are accustomed without always thinking about how it is perceived. You probably don't mean to be disrespectful. You probably don't mean to exclude women or non-binary people from your conversation. But this is often a side-effect of the language you use whether you intend it to or not.

So if you don't want to do that, why not make the small, free change to make sure you don't?


I'll give you another example that may be more relatable. I used to work with a guy whose older brother was very popular. Everybody called the older brother "Mappy." When the younger brother started getting older and making friends, everybody called him "Mappy Jr". People meant this as a lighthearted joke about him being a popular guy's little brother. But he really hated this nickname because it put him in his older brother's shadow at all times. People wouldn't see him or greet him without implicitly acknowledging that he was somebody else's sibling. It made him feel like people didn't care about who he was, or what he liked, because everybody liked his brother more. He asked people to stop calling him that after a few years, and people felt bad, so they stopped.

What you say and what you do has consequences you may not intend. Something that feels normal and harmless to you might be disrespectful to somebody else. Chances are if someone you knew and liked asked you to stop calling them something, you would. It's not hard to show that same courtesy to others too. You lose nothing by doing it, so why wouldn't you?

Click to shrink...

I just wanna say you're the fucking bomb FF <3

 

[Gacha Santa Alter]

The context of their word choice would be interesting here.

Generally men use "girls" or "ladies" as a joke, to playfully denigrate a group by comparing them to the "weaker" gender, even if the person using "girls" or "ladies" doesn't believe the gender is weaker themselves.

However, with the way gendered language is changing these days I would not at all be surprised to find people using all kinds of previously gendered terms in completely non-gendered ways.

Click to shrink...

I really have no idea but I'm aware it's a complicated matter and quite possibly, a minefield of sorts for some people. But like I mentioned before my advice is to simply try and pay it no mind unless it's obvious the speaker is singling you or someone else out. Otherwise just assume it's an attempt at informal speech and move on.

Unless, of course, a slur or a flat-out insult is used. It wasn't directed at me but someone I know once tried to be hip and went "ni**as". This was outside and I shit you not it's like a square km of town went silent and for an instant you could hear a pin drop in that sidewalk.

 

[Truant]

I just use "guys" or "motherfuckers".