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Using "boys" to speak to everyone really needs to stop, and this is why.
- Thread starter astro
- Start date
Of course, specific people may still find specific language use questionable, but with "dude" (and "guy") they would definitely be outliers and would have to keep their expectations in check.
I know.
That's why I have no problem admitting it, because I'm very insensitive by nature so I couldn't care less what random strangers on the internet think. I find it hilarious if someone criticizes people just for being lifelong TEXANs, so I'm straightforward about it
I've made the change within the past year to use folks or y'all or everyone when addressing a group. really isn't tough. 'guys' is really my only exception.
I don't want to sound like a furry who's into young-looking dudes.
I take it back. Orks use 'Boyz' in Warhammer. It's a place I know of consistently using boys.
This is also a universe where Ork technology works because they think it works. which is straight up Tom and Jerry weird.
This is also a universe where Ork technology works because they think it works. which is straight up Tom and Jerry weird.
Honestly, working with a Texan changed my life. Everything is ya'll now. Also glad people are getting over their archaic hangups of they not having to be plural.
given your user name, I assume you're TEXAN like me so we're just used to it
but I have plenty of cousins/aunts/uncles in the North-East and California, who find "yall" weird and don't ever use it
I only play multiplayer games with a full party these days, but I can honestly say it wouldn't bother me to be called girls, ladies, boys, guys, whatever.
Its obvious the Texan didn't teach you how to spell it. Y'all ;)
It's probably not well expressed, but I believe astro means that you don't feel underrepresented in that specific way. You can experience opression as a POC, and still fail to grasp the specific trials that transgender people go through, or viceversa. In the context of this discussion, being a POC probably doesn't particularly give you much more of an insight of what a nonbinary / transgender / woman feels when being addressed as a "boy". To fully empathize you'd have to perform some pretty surreal thought experiments like there being a word that meant "group of white people" and how that'd make you feel when used to adress you (although I can't imagine a context where the existence of such a word wouldn't be racist... which is perhaps part of the point).
Anyway, in Spanish this is at the same time better and worse. Worse because there's very few gender-neutral words:"kid" doesn't exist, you have pretty much several equivalents of "boy" and "girl" only; even adjectives are gendered, with no gender-neutral form. "Better" because (probably because of this), it's grammatically correct to refer to a group of people of mixed genders with the male plural form (yeah, there's a lot of controversy about that, especially recently). So "niños" or "chicos" would not necessarily mean "group of male kids" and depending on context can be assumed to refer to a mixed group too.
"Guys" being versatile is not an opinion. People in general tend to default to it a lot. How many times one calls the workers in the IT sector the "IT guys" regardless of the gender of the people that work there? This goes to any profession, really, especially those with more obscure or complicated names. Just put an appropriate adjective there followed by "guys".
I don't disagree about changing to a more appropriate word in a particular situation, but it IS too much to ask for the word to be dropped in pop language altogether, when it's usage has been growing more and more as time passes.
To the point even girls use it for other girls, as pointed out before.
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Misspelling y'all is as Texan as saying y'all. You still have it. Use it with pride. :D
If you wish to do 2 lines with each of those members, how could you call them kindly to make it? "here the non-binary people and here the gender-fluid people"?
Guys and dude being an accepted gender neutral way to address a group or person is 100% not an opinion at this point, it's common vernacular.
That is actually a separate issue, which is that when a group of male teenagers or men call each other "ladies", it's always in an humorously ribbing manner. The connotations are... not very nice if you stop to think about them. :/
I understand that the terms "guys" and sometimes "boys" are accepted as gender neutral. There are plenty of words and phrases that are considered common use that can be hurtful to people. I do my best to educate myself, accommodate where I can, and self reflect when I see that something I have said or done is hurtful to someone. Assuming that one has the high ground of common usage is short sighted. History reflects this as does the English Oxford Dictionary when history deems colloquial usage outdated, improper, or offensive. "Guys" and "Boys" may forever and always be widely accepted as gender neutral and maybe not. Doesn't change the fact that some people are hurt when they are misgendered. Following some of these replies I can see that some people are like "whoa, never thought of it that way" and some are like "nah, don't care". That's fine, and is part of the discussion. Just thought I would chime in with an anecdotal story of a time I said something that made someone upset and didn't realize it in the hope that it might spur some folks to reflect a little.
I'm from SoCal and use "y'all" liberally. No one ever bats an eye. I think it's only weird to non-Southern ears when the accent comes into play.
Or everyone thinks I'm nuts and no one has said anything... *shrug*
Or everyone thinks I'm nuts and no one has said anything... *shrug*
Well yeah it would be weird if you took it literally. I often take it like they're saying something like "alright kids ..." I don't think it's intended to be a simple replacement for "you guys" at all, I think it has a slight air of superiority, like you're leading the people you're addressing. That might be part of why people don't like getting told not to say it. Like if someone yells "alright fuccbois" or greets with "what's up bitches" they're really not expecting a serious reply like "excuse me, I'm not a fuccboi/bitch, I'm a ____, please call me that next time" because they're using the word to express a certain tone with no regard to descriptive accuracy.
I'm just saying I don't generally care how people refer to me. Back when I used to do lobby chat I heard way worse than where we dropping boys? People in public lobbies are generally total assholes and always have been. Good luck changing them the best option is to play in party chat and have a good time.
Guys is not accepted as gender neutral it is Gender neutral.
Feeling hurt because one chooses to misunderstand what a word means is not a problem of the masses, but one of the individual.
I use "dawg(s)", "homie(s)", and "squad" a majority of the time if I'm not talking directly to a particular person.
I use guys as a gender neutral word. I hate 'boys' and 'girls' being applied to anyone who isn't a small child. I'd be open to using a different word, but the suggested "y'all" just sounds too friendly to me.
It's only gender neutral due to the fact we live in a patriarchal society, for the most part. Same reason the male plural pronoun ("eles") is considered gender neutral in Portuguese (and the same for its equivalent in other Latin languages), because the man is considered the most important part of society. I don't understand why English speakers can't take the smallest of steps to reduce this, when they have lots of neutral words, while we Latin speakers don't, so we are kinda stuck.
Do gay communities have a problem with inclusion? Cause that's kind of the issue here; gaming culture being extremely male-centered in both action and verbeage.
Bear is slang for dumbass in Portugal, possibly other portuguese-speaking countries. Denied!
"Boys" is used in gaming to refer to a team, the same way "guys" can be used in real life to refer to a group of people. It's inoffensive and inclusive and in that context does not refer to a person's gender. Obviously I wouldn't use it for a singular person who I knew wasn't male.
That's completely different, as the connotation of that in the gay male community has never been intended to suggest the person is actually a woman, nor that the typical member of that community is a woman.
When people in gaming say "let's go boys" it's because young men are generally perceived to be the typical or rightful members of gamer culture. It serves to normalize that perception, even where no offense or malice was intended.
User Banned (1 Day): Trolling; Accumulated Infractions
Long Story Short:
Fucking with ones language is fucking with their culture.
Attacking a culture is a huge fucking no no on these boards isn't it?
Those are completely different things. You're comparing the femininity in gay culture to being misgendered by other people. It's not nearly the same at all.
I've heard so many homophonic slurs from the gaming community. But I let is pass. Doesn't do me much.
Calling someone a "f*g" is much worse than calling someone a "boy"
But I guess everyone has different levels of being offended.
Lol yeah I call everyone dude.
But idk about " boys " I'll never call anyone boy or boys it's just degrading to anyone that's not a kid.
Part of a western PA dialect called "Pittsburghese"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_Pennsylvania_English
The truth is, and I just want to say this directly, I have no idea how the people around you feel. I don't know what the expectations of your friends and coworkers are. I have no idea what's going through the heads of people you interact with on a daily basis. I could not possibly tell you whether these people are or are not uncomfortable. So don't think I'm saying I know better than you because I don't.
You are correct that different parts of the world and different cultures have different priorities when it comes to things like this. Different places and people also have different expectations of where its appropriate to object to something like this. People can be uncomfortable quietly. If somebody is uncomfortable with terms like "you guys", it may be less uncomfortable than confronting somebody about it at work or in front of friends. Many people simply tolerate and internalize their discomfort (especially women) because the consequences of speaking up might be even more distressing or embarrassing than just keeping quiet. This doesn't mean they aren't uncomfortable in the meantime.
But these kinds of movements and requests don't come from nowhere. The push for gender-neutral language comes from all kinds of people. It comes from women, it comes from trans people, it comes from non-binary people, and others. It comes from people in professional environments who feel invisible at work, or going to school, or while hanging out with their friends. These people talk to each other, then talk to their friends, and the request spreads far and wide to the point where you are reading about it on a gaming forum. These people come from all over the world, even Texas.
When people hear something like this for the first time, it's easy to think "nobody actually cares about this, I've never heard this before." But people do care. It takes time and it takes courage for people who feel marginalized to speak up about how they feel. So even though I don't know how the people around you feel, I know that people who care about this are everywhere, and chances are you know them without even knowing. There are women everywhere. There are non-binary people everywhere. Maybe they're the cashier at the grocery store or maybe they're somebody new on the job site. Just because you don't hear from them about it doesn't mean they don't care. And if only one person in a group of five cares, and the other four don't have an opinion one way or another, why not be respectful to the one person who does?
So you have a choice. You can either decide the people who do care aren't important enough for you to change your behavior or you can make an small effort to be accommodating. You don't have to make it everywhere, either. You talk about how it doesn't seem like people you know personally care, so maybe they don't. Maybe you know your peers well enough to know they don't care. But you have a public online presence too. You post on this forum, maybe you play multiplayer games, and maybe you have a wide net on social media. When you express yourself on these platforms, you aren't just talking to people just like you that you've spent 40 years with. You're talking to people who might feel differently too. So why not just say y'all and folks instead? You have nothing to lose, you know?