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Using "boys" to speak to everyone really needs to stop, and this is why.
- Thread starter astro
- Start date
"Using "boys" to speak to everyone really needs to stop, and this is why."
There is no real reason why except there is a new generation of people that get easily offended by words, pure and simple.
I'm not trying to do a driveby post, I actually had a couple of paragraphs written out but decided to delete them as this is the gaming section. I still haven't worked out if it was posted here by mistake or if the OP just wants the world to know that people get offended by specific words, and in this topic it's "boy".
There is no real reason why except there is a new generation of people that get easily offended by words, pure and simple.
I'm not trying to do a driveby post, I actually had a couple of paragraphs written out but decided to delete them as this is the gaming section. I still haven't worked out if it was posted here by mistake or if the OP just wants the world to know that people get offended by specific words, and in this topic it's "boy".
User Banned (1 Week): Condescending and Antagonistic Rhetoric over Multiple Posts
I think being different is ok and obviously should be respected and given the same dignity as anyone else.
I think you, OP and anyone else that is offended and insecure about generic terminology that has been, will be, and continue to be used based on gender roles, Male and female need to look at things objectively.
Your insecurities and sensitivities are based on the fact that you know your different. In no way any less of a person in my eyes, but your smart enough to know you dont fit in with the overwhelming majority of people who are comfortable in their own skin and gender.
This is why your having issues with labels and words. Work on self confidence and understanding that acceptance works both ways. You wanting nouns, pronouns and societies way of speaking to change does not make sense, just like anyone telling you to change wont make sense either. Words are simply that. Words. Understand yourself, understand society and be tolerant enough to let things go.
No one is out to intentionally hurt you, if they are it would be direct, obvious and unquestionable. Twisting words to further fuel your insecurities isn't something that is fair or acceptable to anyone.
I think you, OP and anyone else that is offended and insecure about generic terminology that has been, will be, and continue to be used based on gender roles, Male and female need to look at things objectively.
Your insecurities and sensitivities are based on the fact that you know your different. In no way any less of a person in my eyes, but your smart enough to know you dont fit in with the overwhelming majority of people who are comfortable in their own skin and gender.
This is why your having issues with labels and words. Work on self confidence and understanding that acceptance works both ways. You wanting nouns, pronouns and societies way of speaking to change does not make sense, just like anyone telling you to change wont make sense either. Words are simply that. Words. Understand yourself, understand society and be tolerant enough to let things go.
No one is out to intentionally hurt you, if they are it would be direct, obvious and unquestionable. Twisting words to further fuel your insecurities isn't something that is fair or acceptable to anyone.
Thank you for articulating my thoughts in a way I can't. Very thoughtful response.
I wouldn't use boys/guys to address the room at large unless I was familiar with the people there and knew it was fine.
Where do we fall on 'dude'?
Where do we fall on 'dude'?
Though there's usually a joking tone with it, and I get the cultural history behind phrases addressed to the "boys" in some kind of "let's" or "we" form, I still would prefer if we didn't do it.
I was a little disappointed that some of the first posts on this forum were "we in this boys" posts.
I get that most dont mean to be malicious or exclusive with it, and it's somewhat referential of the type of stuff that a non-com or an officer in some old military movie might say to their squad, but we really don't have to say it, and it'd be a better place if we used it exclusively to single out males, rather than act like everyone is a male.
So I hear you, OP. This crosses my mind occasionally, but I haven't said anything about it. You definitely have a great point.
I use y'all half the time anyway, and it gets the same job done.
To those who don't like y'all for some inevitably bad reason: Go use Ye (like yeet without the t, but not like kanye).
I was a little disappointed that some of the first posts on this forum were "we in this boys" posts.
I get that most dont mean to be malicious or exclusive with it, and it's somewhat referential of the type of stuff that a non-com or an officer in some old military movie might say to their squad, but we really don't have to say it, and it'd be a better place if we used it exclusively to single out males, rather than act like everyone is a male.
So I hear you, OP. This crosses my mind occasionally, but I haven't said anything about it. You definitely have a great point.
I use y'all half the time anyway, and it gets the same job done.
To those who don't like y'all for some inevitably bad reason: Go use Ye (like yeet without the t, but not like kanye).
I don't see how anyone is fucking with with anyone else's language, but okay? I was just explaining why male gendered nouns and pronouns are usually seem as the default when you don't know someone's gender, and how that shouldn't be used as an excuse to continue with behavior that can be seem as exclusionary by some, when an alternative is easily known.
They are free to continue speaking as such, and I expect them to, but others will be also free to keep criticizing them (as the OP is doing) for feeling excluded.
Sorry, but this bs. Not having the intention to hurt someone doesn't make anyone safe from actually hurting someone.
No one that assumes I'm straight is intentionally trying to offend me. That doesn't mean I don't get bothered by that.
Why is this is the gaming section? I hear this a lot IRL but the only 'gaming' case of this I hear is "where we dropping bois?"
Would this not be better suited in EtcetEra or is this more frequent in gaming than I hear?
Would this not be better suited in EtcetEra or is this more frequent in gaming than I hear?
Worded it far better than I ever could. Asking even a small portion of a large group of people to change their wording of what is to them such basic and thoughtless terminology isn't realistic. And when I say thoughtless, I mean that it doesn't and shouldn't require thought. It's like used the word "boys" when referring to a group that was entirely or partially made up of women. Pretty sure 99.9% of the time the women aren't going to care because the word isn't being used to discriminate or make anyone uncomfortable. It's simply a basic catch-all word that the majority are comfortable with. Harsh as it sounds, majority are always going to win in situations like this.
So then what exactly is the point of the rest of your post?
If you think people's preferences should be respected and if you are willing to do it then what exactly is the problem? Just respect those preferences, what reason do you have to do otherwise?
Yeah, as someone who is not an American (I'm a Swede), I always found it strange how Americans keep saying 'guys' like that. In Sweden, we would never use the equivalent word in Swedish ("grabbar" or "killar") when there are women in the group, would be absurd. Also, a pet peeve of mine is how some people assume everyone on forums like these are guys. I guess it's not as common on Era as other places, but still.
Unless you start calling shopping carts as buggys and refer every soda no matter the flaver as a coke you'll be fine. like I said earlier since moving to the south, y'all is the only thing I've adopted into my everyday lexicon for this very reason.
Also some good reading
https://slate.com/human-interest/20...is-the-best-second-person-plural-pronoun.html
You're misinterpreting Guys as gendered. It's not a gendered word.
Just wanted to give a shout out to the OP and say in spite of the blowback I think this thread has been worthwhile.
Given the majority of posters seem posting in this thread seem to think this is overblown it deserves to be here. And the fact people keep talking about "guys" which is generally seen as gender neutral rather than "boys" which is generally not and acting as if they're both on the same level is just another way to brush off the topic at hand without actually engaging in a meaningful way.
Yes.
Given the majority of posters seem posting in this thread seem to think this is overblown it deserves to be here. And the fact people keep talking about "guys" which is generally seen as gender neutral rather than "boys" which is generally not and acting as if they're both on the same level is just another way to brush off the topic at hand without actually engaging in a meaningful way.
"It's too hard for me to change one word so you need to self esteem yourself out of feeling excluded by my choice to not include you."
My post made perfect sense.
If I was asked by one person to call them a him, or a her because it's their preference I would.
I dont need to change my entire outlook on genders to fit select people.
In person I only use boys when talking to exclusively men/boys. In mixed company I use guys. If someone expressed discomfort with that term I'd try to stop using it around them but probably not altogether.
But I'll admit I've probably used boys way too often on message boards just because I naturally picture every other person on the board to be like me unless I give it any thought.
But I'll admit I've probably used boys way too often on message boards just because I naturally picture every other person on the board to be like me unless I give it any thought.
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This has always slightly irked and put me off too and I've wondered if maybe I'm just too stuck up or something? So hearing those concerns from women/non-binary people (I'm male myself) is a valuable perspective to have. I'll definitely try to take this into account with how I speak on the internet going forward.
Pretty sure guys isn't gender neutral no matter how much you try to spin it.
Just use the singular form in a sentence and you can see how clearly it's not. "I went out with a cute guy last night"
Edit: Even in a more nuetral way it still paints the same picture. "That guy over there bought apples."
Just use the singular form in a sentence and you can see how clearly it's not. "I went out with a cute guy last night"
Edit: Even in a more nuetral way it still paints the same picture. "That guy over there bought apples."
"This is gaming related because most of the posters disagree with the OP"
I'm not sure I follow. Surely people could disagree with the OP over on the proper forum.
I've seen just as many women use the term 'guys' to refer to a group at large as men. Guys was certainly gendered, but as far back as the 90's this was changing. Nearly 30 years later I never see 'guys' used as a gendered term intentionally (that is, used to target men in a group of both men and women).
There are plenty of words in the English language that had a base meaning and have changed over time.
Good, if you can do it then literally anyone can do it. There is absolutely nothing wrong with asking people for that basic respect.
Does it mean EVERYONE is going to do it? Of course not just like how there's no way EVERYONE is going to not say racist things and how there's no way EVERYONE is going to teach their children how to pay a bill.
That doesn't mean you should stop asking people for that basic respect, that doesn't mean you should stop encouraging that people respect others choices. You entire philosophy is based on the idea that if you believe people aren't going to do something then it shouldn't be encouraged and you should instead just find a way to deal with it.
And you GENUINELY don't seem to understand what an incredibly stagnant way of thinking that is.
I stopped myself using "guys" in a forum post here yesterday and used "folks" instead. 'Guys' in my mind does mean everyone, even though I know it's gendered male language. Funny thing is, it's only a written thing, I would never say "guys" irl, it would sound pretentious to me as a Brit!
The intent vs impact post is so, so spot on. This is exactly the same issue people have had for years about the "that's so gay" type of language. I felt like I was being reminded I was considered lesser than or excluded every time I heard that because it impacts me. Every time someone argued their use of such phrases, they always said their intentions were innocent, but even if they were, the impact was still real to me and others.
Using the term "guys" doesn't impact me because I am a guy, and my intent isn't to make others feel excluded, but I am aware that it can do, so regardless of intent, it's important to make those small changes because of their impact. And they are small changes, does it really make a big difference to use words like "folks" or "everybody" instead of "boys" or "guys" - it's a change that has no negative impact on the speaker, but could have a real positive impact on your message being received by more people because you're not shutting them out of the conversation.
The intent vs impact post is so, so spot on. This is exactly the same issue people have had for years about the "that's so gay" type of language. I felt like I was being reminded I was considered lesser than or excluded every time I heard that because it impacts me. Every time someone argued their use of such phrases, they always said their intentions were innocent, but even if they were, the impact was still real to me and others.
Using the term "guys" doesn't impact me because I am a guy, and my intent isn't to make others feel excluded, but I am aware that it can do, so regardless of intent, it's important to make those small changes because of their impact. And they are small changes, does it really make a big difference to use words like "folks" or "everybody" instead of "boys" or "guys" - it's a change that has no negative impact on the speaker, but could have a real positive impact on your message being received by more people because you're not shutting them out of the conversation.
lol, this is my favourite, but don't assume I don't believe in reincarnation, you don't know me like that! :p
I don't identify as a girl, but my gay friends call me "girl".
It's a term of endearment. If someone addresses you in general terms, it's the opposite of being excluded. It means you're part of a group that's in the conversation.
It's a term of endearment. If someone addresses you in general terms, it's the opposite of being excluded. It means you're part of a group that's in the conversation.
If someone said, "alright lets go ladies" I wouldn't feel inclined to say "actually I'm a male" nor feel offended/excluded. Actually I don't think I'd say anything and I would just play the game.
Where does the feeling of exclusion come into play when the group is still being addressed as a whole or does it only matter for those who identify as non-male?
This is absolutely a problem that exists outside of gaming and as part of culture at large, but think about this through the lens of gaming. In real life you're probably at least somewhat acquainted with the people you're talking to. You either know them or can easily ask them/they can tell you their preferences. If you call your all male group of friends boys that's fine. If everyone's fine with it you can do the same whether it's mixed male, female, non-binary, etc.
However online we interact with a dizzyingly large number of people with whom we have no real connection. In team based games people are grouped by a matchmaking algorithm and in a single night you might play with dozens of people. What's more, you can't necessarily make an educated guess about someone's gender based on their screen name or avatar.
Gaming has been and largely still is viewed as a male dominated, male centric hobby. I saw someone early in this thread say they only hear male voices through chat, but that ignores women who often don't use voice chat due to harassment or those with voices that don't sound typically masculine/feminine. Calling everyone in your randomly assembled squad "boy" not only can misgender people, but also reinforces the idea that they're an outsider. One instance may not mean much, but having it happen again and again for months or years wears on people. It's not that much of an ask to request people use ya'll, everyone, folks, squad, mercs, or some other game specific gender neutral term. If you don't think using gendered terms causes harm, try to look at it as being accomodating of the random people you meet. A small change can make their day better.
While deliberating over the subject here won't change the culture at large, we can at least try to change the culture on this site and the in game communities born here.
That's not really how that works. It's considering you part of the group so long as they ignore the things that make you different. That's like saying "I see no skin colour"
Couldn't agree more, OP. It feels incredibly exclusionary and I don't understand how it got as much traction as it did. When I see topics like "DMC hype check boys" it makes my eyes roll a little bit. Video games have enough of a problem with inclusiveness as is.
This is the proper forum. Stop trying to shut down the discussion. I remember seeing several instances of the word "boys" being used in thread titles on the video game side (Here's one example. ) I've not seen the term used over on Etcetera, at least not in the way it is described in the OP.
I guess I can see the point as an abstract, but intent matters. Do you think people say boys or guys as a way to push a male agenda for some reason? Because I feel that I can confidently say that the majority of people that use those terms aren't meaning it the way you're taking it.
The other thing I don't understand with things like this is why people feel their own comfort is paramount and that other people MUST conform to their ideals so they feel comfort while other people need to learn to change common vernacular. I understand if there is a one on one personal conversation and you state how you prefer to be referred, but in a group where a catch-all term is used without intent of hate that a vast majority of people would consider benign, stuff like this seems like splitting hairs and looking for something to feel an affront about.
"Guys" began just as masculine and male driven as boys. You're fine with it, because nobody really nitpicked it and it naturally became a catch all that wasn't necessarily gender-driven. Same to a lesser extent for "dudes".
Now, that is not to say that if you were in a random lobby on my team and expressed concern, I wouldn't accommodate - if you objected, I would explain that I meant no offense, but would try to be more conscientious. But I gather that if I slipped unintentionally, you would be just as mad, even knowing my intent was pure.
I really think this is much ado about nothing, to be honest. And I think you know in your heart that the vast majority of people you hear saying boys aren't being insidious and saying "Yeah, you're a boy and you'll like it" - so why treat it as such?
The other thing I don't understand with things like this is why people feel their own comfort is paramount and that other people MUST conform to their ideals so they feel comfort while other people need to learn to change common vernacular. I understand if there is a one on one personal conversation and you state how you prefer to be referred, but in a group where a catch-all term is used without intent of hate that a vast majority of people would consider benign, stuff like this seems like splitting hairs and looking for something to feel an affront about.
"Guys" began just as masculine and male driven as boys. You're fine with it, because nobody really nitpicked it and it naturally became a catch all that wasn't necessarily gender-driven. Same to a lesser extent for "dudes".
Now, that is not to say that if you were in a random lobby on my team and expressed concern, I wouldn't accommodate - if you objected, I would explain that I meant no offense, but would try to be more conscientious. But I gather that if I slipped unintentionally, you would be just as mad, even knowing my intent was pure.
I really think this is much ado about nothing, to be honest. And I think you know in your heart that the vast majority of people you hear saying boys aren't being insidious and saying "Yeah, you're a boy and you'll like it" - so why treat it as such?
Yeah, that's true. It is something that will definately change over time.
I do agree with this instance - saying BOYS in a forum where there is a larger chance of a diverse audience is probably inappropriate, even if the intent is not to be exclusive.
When I'm playing Apex with my friends I'll regularly refer to the group as "boys". But I know them fairly well and they are all cis men.
I don't really ever use "boys" in a real life setting. Probably since my real life friends/family consist of a lot of LGBTQ and women.
I do say "guys" a whole lot. That will be a hard one to break.
I don't really ever use "boys" in a real life setting. Probably since my real life friends/family consist of a lot of LGBTQ and women.
I do say "guys" a whole lot. That will be a hard one to break.
I think it's easy to say that when that never actually happens. Imagine it happened frequently; and that until you mentioned being a man everyone assumed you were a woman. It's the tone of the thing, really. Speaking to group of people in a way that assumes they are all one thing makes people who aren't feel excluded.
I always catch myself saying "guys" like "what are you 'guys' doing?" Even when its not men/males. And I always pause after just thinking to myself how odd it seems. I tell myself not to do it, but I still do. Im not sure why I still say it. I think just because of how common it has been. I guess maybe "boys" is similar for the younger crowd. idk.
See the threadmarked post, we've covered this already. Just because someone doesn't intend for something to have an impact, doesn't mean it can't have an impact.
Asking someone for some basic respect is not imposing your will on people, people are free to say "No, I DON'T want to call you by what you want me to call you" if they really want to. Literally what issue is there with asking people this?
That's a fabricated scenario that you just made up and is in no shape or form the norm. When's the last time you used the word guy and someone got mad at you for saying it? Nobodies attacking you, you're not a victim.
Dude is technically gendered it means "a man or guy"
That said, living in Southern California you'd never guess it as such. Dude is the catch all term for pretty much anything and everything, I've said, "look at those dudes over there." when referring to a bunch of cute dogs on the beach.
It's also a term of expression, a quick "dude" can mean everything from, "I'm sorry to hear that" to "I'm very cross with you right now" depending on inflection.
Being Australian I actually rarely use the word boys and instead very much opt for mate as it is a universal pronoun that isn't gendered in any significant way at all. Obviously each state, country, town etc. are all going to have different colloquiums with how they structure sentences that encapsulate a group of people but for me it's always been "come on mate let's go" or "alright mates let's do this leeeeeerrooooooy" to that effect.
my mother tongue is spanish, and it doesnt happen here, for a group of people always use the word... people "hey people", spanish by itselff (unlike english) defines the gender in the adjetives/subjects so its incorrect to say for example "Hey Boys" to a group of people were there is even one female. I actually got pretty confused at first when I came to the internet forums and read everyone using "guys" to call a group of people of any gender.
Yes? The gay community is just as prone to racism and transphobia as the straight community.