Using "boys" to speak to everyone really needs to stop, and this is why.

[DestroyerOfWorlds]

Many languages, including English (English to a lesser extent than other languages like Spanish), use masculine variants of words to refer to a group of males, or many mixed groups. This is generally considered grammatically correct. The opposite is not considered correct.

So, plural terms like guys or boys can correctly refer to a group of just male people, a mixed group that includes males, or in the case of an unknown group. You would be incorrect to use those terms to refer to a group that includes no males, though.

I do grasp how this could bother some people, but in order for this to truly change, you'd have to change what is considered grammatically correct for many languages throughout the world. Suggesting people are being cruel by using their language as currently designed seems misguided.

If you really want to expend massive amounts of energy and time to try to change the accepted grammatical structure of the world's languages.... well good luck, and I wish you well. Otherwise, you may be better off working on not allowing other people's choice of words to have such a serious impact.

 

[Deleted member 12186]

I use the word guys to refer to a group of girls sometimes.

Like "hey you guys, what's up".

and boy doesn't technically refer to men right? because boy typically implies they are younger.

Anyways, all I ask is if someone says it, explain your preference and problem with it and go from there. If they continue to ignore it, then they crossed the "I don't care what you ask of me" line, which means devaluation and disrespect. I only say this because things that are "typical" and "normal" had to be internalized and a frequent occurrence. To navigate the modern world, we have become more enlightened and as a result has to go back and attempt to modify many things, which does require tolerance.

 

[BanetteAndBaguette]

And do you really feel that the momentary embarrassment of getting something wrong is on the same level as what people like OP feel on a day to day basis?

Click to shrink...

I never said that it was wrong to ask to someone to stop using a term when it offended you, just that it ruined the mood which is a fact for myself at least, and NO it is not something bad as it is needed to stop this harassment.
It's like you're thinking that I'm some kind of dick that hates the op because it makes people like me uncomfortable sometimes, but you are indeed wrong. The OP is offended, I'm embarassed, but the OP has a bigger problem so the awkward moment needs to happen. End of the story.

 

[Aztechnology]

I love you Citizens ready lol

 

[so1337]

I guess I can see the point as an abstract, but intent matters. Do you think people say boys or guys as a way to push a male agenda for some reason? Because I feel that I can confidently say that the majority of people that use those terms aren't meaning it the way you're taking it.

The other thing I don't understand with things like this is why people feel their own comfort is paramount and that other people MUST conform to their ideals so they feel comfort while other people need to learn to change common vernacular. I understand if there is a one on one personal conversation and you state how you prefer to be referred, but in a group where a catch-all term is used without intent of hate that a vast majority of people would consider benign, stuff like this seems like splitting hairs and looking for something to feel an affront about.

Click to shrink...

I think you got it backwards. People aren't saying "my comfort is paramount," they're saying "this word is causing me discomfort." There is a huge difference.

"Guys" began just as masculine and male driven as boys. You're fine with it, because nobody really nitpicked it and it naturally became a catch all that wasn't necessarily gender-driven. Same to a lesser extent for "dudes".

Now, that is not to say that if you were in a random lobby on my team and expressed concern, I wouldn't accommodate - if you objected, I would explain that I meant no offense, but would try to be more conscientious. But I gather that if I slipped unintentionally, you would be just as mad, even knowing my intent was pure.

I really think this is much ado about nothing, to be honest. And I think you know in your heart that the vast majority of people you hear saying boys aren't being insidious and saying "Yeah, you're a boy and you'll like it" - so why treat it as such?

Click to shrink...

The problem with this is that I can't tell what your intent is. I can't tell wether you're using a word innocently or with ill intent. Because words can elicit a response regardless of intent.

I do agree with this instance - saying BOYS in a forum where there is a larger chance of a diverse audience is probably inappropriate, even if the intent is not to be exclusive.

Click to shrink...

Right. It comes across as ill-conceived.

 

[BiggStankDogg]

See the threadmarked post, we've covered this already. Just because someone doesn't intend for something to have an impact, doesn't mean it can't have an impact.


Asking someone for some basic respect is not imposing your will on people, people are free to say "No, I DON'T want to call you by what you want me to call you" if they really want to. Literally what issue is there with asking people this?


That's a fabricated scenario that you just made up and is in no shape or form the norm. When's the last time you used the word guy and someone got mad at you for saying it? Nobodies attacking you, you're not a victim.

Click to shrink...

I didn't say I was a victim, nor would I even remotely feel that way. That's my point.

And just because someone gave their opinion, doesn't mean that that's the end-all-be-all of the discussion.

As far as basic respect goes, how about taking someone for face value when they say they mean no intent to injure? Should that basic respect also not be afforded without insinuations that an agenda is being pushed? I'm not sure how is it disrespect to assume that someone using a phrase like guys / boys is meant as a group, not as an exclusionary term. Nobody is saying "EXCEPT YOU, FEEL OUR PATRIARCHY" - they are saying "Hey, as part of the collective, this is of interest". To twist it as otherwise when otherwise is not implied or intended is over-inflating the matter.

As far as fabricating a scenario - is that not what people do as part of a thought exercise? Are we now not allowed hypotheticals when dealing with social issues? What exactly is YOUR problem?

 

[Master Alucard]

i mean i do use Boy if they're all men

 

[Okabe]

Let's go Shlooters



Where we landing Chlooters ?

You ready looters ?

 

[BanetteAndBaguette]

Let's go Shlooters



Where we landing Chlooters ?

You ready looters ?

Click to shrink...

Letsa go monkeys
Y'all ready chimps?

 

[Cilla]

Thank you! As a woman it is so annoying seeing "boys boys boys" everywhere. It doesn't feel very inclusive. It's like there's no second thought and gaming is still a "boys club". I am less likely to click on and participate in a thread that has that title. It's not just here though it's EVERYWHERE.
In my FFXIV raid and we're about to go "Let's do it boys!" Ugh.

 

[BiggStankDogg]

I think you got it backwards. People aren't saying "my comfort is paramount," they're saying "this word is causing me discomfort." There is a huge difference.


The problem with this is that I can't tell what your intent is. I can't tell whether you're using a word innocently or with ill intent. Because words can elicit a response regardless of intent.

Right. It comes across as ill-conceived.

Click to shrink...

But to say what you're saying is to lead off with the assumption of mal-intent. When you hear someone say "LET'S GO, GUYS!" is it generally conveying a message of menace or joy? I honestly can't think of an organic encounter where someone is saying that phrase or a like phrase with a hidden addendum insinuating "EXCEPT YOU" - that's the point. A statement of camaraderie is being conveyed as one that is sinister, and I just don't believe that's the case.

And yes, I do believe saying "We have to stop saying the thing that most people are comfortable saying because I myself am uncomfortable" is making your comfort paramount. I understand concessions being made on a local level, like "Hey, I'm not a guy - would you mind not" and even then, it sounds nit-picky, at least in my opinion (which, I concede is not necessarily correct).

But to say "It must not be said" is a bit of an over-reach, I think.

 

[Droidian]

Many girls play the same games, they hear "where are we landing boys?"
Yet they don't make multiple threads to demand people quit using boys.
I know that doesn't mean they don't think it but I guess their are some things guys say and things girls say.

 

[iswasdoes]

I've been eliminating the use of "guys" out of my vocabulary for like 2 years now. It still rears it's head from time to time as I'm putting a sentence together. You just think about it, pause, pick a replacement and move on. If it comes out before you think about it, then either just keep that in mind for the next time, or frame up a different way to say your plural group and hit the mark this time.

It's not natural at first, but like everything, it gets easier the more you do it. You've just got to make a concerted effort to start doing it.

Click to shrink...

Yeah I'm gonna try to do that. It definitely felt a bit weird in this instance cos I was acutely aware I was addressing three senior female leaders of the company as 'you guys' and I didn't want them to feel for a second that I was using some patriarchal term

But at the same time, all the words you've suggested I think would have been contextually odd and at worst even made an issue that made people uncomfortable when there needn't be (like some sketch from the office or something)

Basically I think we either need a new word or need to de-gender guys. I get what you're saying that if you just keep doing it then it will become a norm but if that creates loads of discomfort along the way is it worth it?

For what it's worth I think 'guys' served me well in this situation

 

[BiggStankDogg]

I also, don't think that BOYS is used as much as GUYS, but I will admit that might be a blind spot for me. I just don't see how one is acceptable and not the other.

 

[BiggStankDogg]

Basically I think we either need a new word or need to de-gender guys. I get what you're saying that if you just keep doing it then it will become a norm but if that creates loads of discomfort along the way is it worth it?

Click to shrink...

I would argue that it already is at the point of being de-gendered, or nearly so.

 

[milkyway]

I would consider myself non-binary gendered - I've always felt my personality/identity was fundamentally different than other males (and females). Regardless, the last thing I've ever been concerned about is pronouns. I guess by virtue of my literal sex being male, it doesn't concern me to be referred to by male-gendered terms (nor female terms, as is frequent on the phone). It seems a pretty low bar to reaching for acceptance by simply convincing people to use more gender-neutral terms. Guess I don't really give a fuck what random people see me as, just that people who want to know me understand me as I am. I'd rather people use the words that come naturally to them unless they're being intentionally exclusive/offensive. That's just my individual perspective on the matter and I can understand why others would feel more validated with gender-neutral terms being used in common language.

 

[BanetteAndBaguette]

https://youtu.be/_7XW05a8C8E
Don't take this too seriously ok, now time for me to leave this thread forever

 

[FTF]

I'm definitely guilty of using "guys" as a gender-neutral catchall even when it's technically gendered.

"Boys" sounds fuckin weird to me, though. In any context.

Click to shrink...

Yeah I do this too. Like in a group text I'll go see you guys there. But yeah boys is more odd.

 

[Zornack]

Yeah I do this too. Like in a group text I'll go see you guys there. But yeah boys is more odd.

Click to shrink...

But guys is gender neutral.

 

[TaterTots]

I'm in the south. We say, "ya'll" to address people. Only time I've seen someone say, "boys" is when I watch Trailer Park Boys.

 

[iswasdoes]

I would argue that it already is at the point of being de-gendered, or nearly so.

Click to shrink...

Well I think so too, but I'm also conscious that other people might not think that, and I guess at least on some level it's still a gendered term. I'm saying would like an alternative

 

[Ushay]

Personally I've always used the term 'guys' even when there are other genders present. Never actually physically heard the word 'boys' used, I can see how it addresses a specific group though.

Unless it exclusively is said to offend you, I can't really see the issue?

 

[Deleted member 41520]

You're thinking about this in terms of intention instead of impact.

People say and do all kinds of things and not intend to hurt someone else. That doesn't mean they don't. Probably in your lifetime you have known people who used homophobic language or derogatory terms for differently-abled people to describe things they don't like. But people have largely stopped using language like this because, regardless of how it is intended, it has a negative impact on the people around them. We now have a different and healthier expectation from others as a result.

The request in this thread is not as severe of a case. This situation is more about courtesy, visibility, and respect. But it's the same idea that people use language they are accustomed without always thinking about how it is perceived. You probably don't mean to be disrespectful. You probably don't mean to exclude women or non-binary people from your conversation. But this is often a side-effect of the language you use whether you intend it to or not.

So if you don't want to do that, why not make the small, free change to make sure you don't?


I'll give you another example that may be more relatable. I used to work with a guy whose older brother was very popular. Everybody called the older brother "Mappy." When the younger brother started getting older and making friends, everybody called him "Mappy Jr". People meant this as a lighthearted joke about him being a popular guy's little brother. But he really hated this nickname because it put him in his older brother's shadow at all times. People wouldn't see him or greet him without implicitly acknowledging that he was somebody else's sibling. It made him feel like people didn't care about who he was, or what he liked, because everybody liked his brother more. He asked people to stop calling him that after a few years, and people felt bad, so they stopped.

What you say and what you do has consequences you may not intend. Something that feels normal and harmless to you might be disrespectful to somebody else. Chances are if someone you knew and liked asked you to stop calling them something, you would. It's not hard to show that same courtesy to others too. You lose nothing by doing it, so why wouldn't you?

Click to shrink...

Don't really want to get into this thread heavily, but bravo for this post

The rhetorical device of isolating "intention" and "impact" in this way is very profound and persuasive. Did you get it from any particular literature?>

 

[kittens]

Many girls play the same games, they hear "where are we landing boys?"
Yet they don't make multiple threads to demand people quit using boys.
I know that doesn't mean they don't think it but I guess their are some things guys say and things girls say.

Click to shrink...

and there's things non-binary people say, for example: stop misgendering us

 

[Deleted member 41520]

Personally I've always used the term 'guys' even when there are other genders present. Never actually physically heard the word 'boys' used, I can see how it addresses a specific group though.

Unless it exclusively is said to offend you, I can't really see the issue?

Click to shrink...

I know women and trans people who use the phrase "guys" as a gender-neutral plural noun (and I use it a lot).

BUT as Finale Fireworker's post points out, that just means our intention probably doesn't match the impact the language might have on other people

 

[Deleted member 9330]

Guys is of course gendered. Use "gals" instead for groups of men or mixed-genders and see how it feels.

 

[Zornack]

Guys is of course gendered. Use "gals" instead for groups of men or mixed-genders and see how it feels.

Click to shrink...

That's the point, gals isn't. The reason no one bays an eye at calling a group of women or a mixed gender group "guys," but does for "gals," is because guys is gender neutral.

 

[BiggStankDogg]

I know women and trans people who use the phrase "guys" as a gender-neutral plural noun (and I use it a lot).

BUT as Finale Fireworker's post points out, that just means our intention probably doesn't match the impact the language might have on other people

Click to shrink...

I understand this argument, but why is it only incumbent to re-calibrate how we perceive the intention but not how we perceive the impact?

For instance, if I'm lactose intolerant and feel a certain way about dairy products because I feel excluded from eating cheese sandwiches, or putting milk on my cereal - should I expect stores not to stock milk and butter and cheese because it impacts me a certain way?

OR

Should I look at the situation in a way that I understand many other people enjoy dairy, and are not adversely effected by dairy, and that they're consuming of these products in or around me is in no way an assault on my feelings, nor is it meant to exclude me from the supermarket and that asking for dairy products to be removed may be a few steps to far when I can just understand that people feel and physically react differently than me in a completely neutral and non-harmful way?

 

[Emmert]

I'm surprised at people saying "boys" is gender neutral. If I referred to my coworkers as "boys" they'd be confused.

 

[Robotoboy]

I agree. It drives me nuts and comes off as an evolution of bro culture. It is incredibly "boys club" to constantly say "let's go boys" etc.

It can't hurt to just remove it, or only use it when speaking with your own group. The matter that boys club mentality and its effects still exist is problematic in and of itself.

 

[Deleted member 41520]

I understand this argument, but why is it only incumbent to re-calibrate how we perceive the intention but not how we perceive the impact?

Click to shrink...

I'm confused.

The core issue of the thread is that people calibrate there to be 0 impact because they have 0 intention.

The "re-calibration" you're talking about is to realise that, even if you have 0 intention, there can still be n impact (where n > 0).

 

[Trigonometrize]

I'm surprised at people saying "boys" is gender neutral. If I referred to my coworkers as "boys" they'd be confused.

Click to shrink...

Gender neutral in certain contexts. Doing a rallying cry with friends before a video game is s way different "boys" than referring to coworkers.

 

[BiggStankDogg]

I'm confused.

The core issue of the thread is that people calibrate there to be 0 impact because they have 0 intention.

The "re-calibration" you're talking about is to realise that, even if you have 0 intention, there can still be n impact (where n > 0).

Click to shrink...

For instance, if I'm lactose intolerant and feel a certain way about dairy products because I feel excluded from eating cheese sandwiches, or putting milk on my cereal - should I expect stores not to stock milk and butter and cheese because it impacts me a certain way?

OR

Should I look at the situation in a way that I understand many other people enjoy dairy, and are not adversely effected by dairy, and that they're consuming of these products in or around me is in no way an assault on my feelings, nor is it meant to exclude me from the supermarket and that asking for dairy products to be removed may be a few steps to far when I can just understand that people feel and physically react differently than me in a completely neutral and non-harmful way?

 

[BeatnikGunso]

we can't get non black people to stop saying niggas (or nigger) when talking about a group of people and you think/want people will/to stop saying boys???

 

[Deleted member 9330]

That's the point, gals isn't. The reason no one bays an eye at calling a group of women or a mixed gender group "guys," but does for "gals," is because guys is gender neutral.

Click to shrink...

Just because people use it as if it were gender-neutral doesn't mean it is. If it were gender-neutral it wouldn't have an opposite, "gals" wouldn't exist as there would be no need. The word "Latino" is used for both groups of guys and mixed-gender groups , and "Latinas" exclusively for groups of women. Thus, Latinx was made as an actually neutral term.

 

[astro]

Checking back in while I eat some food, some of the support given ITT is really great. If you're one of those people, thank you for it. <3

That's the point, gals isn't. The reason no one bays an eye at calling a group of women or a mixed gender group "guys," but does for "gals," is because guys is gender neutral.

Click to shrink...

Guys was originally a gendered term meaning Men. The only reason it became non-gendred (and this is to most, not ALL people - some still find it gendered due to its roots) was because of male dominance in society, male gender being dominant and men being dominant in so many aspects of life that a male term crept in to mean "everyone".

And while language evolves, which is fine, it's telling when male dominated terms grow into ubiquitous terms to mean "all". The word "boys" is fully gendered. It literally means "male adolescent". The fact so many men are cool with it becoming ubiquitous as "all" shows to me we still have a very logn way to go till we approach true gender equality.

 

[BiggStankDogg]

Just because people use it as if it were gender-neutral doesn't mean it is. If it were gender-neutral it wouldn't have an opposite, "gals" wouldn't exist as there would be no need. The word "Latino" is used for both groups of guys and mixed-gender groups , and "Latinas" exclusively for groups of women. Thus, Latinx was made as an actually neutral term.

Click to shrink...

But if people can understand that a term is being used in a non-gendered way, why insist that it IS?

 

[Deleted member 1273]

I did this and started to call all people 'lass' 'hun' 'gal' 'girl' when they were a mix group of both men and women and haven't got a complaint, so yeah it's something that is deeply rooted but so far, in my experience, can change as simple as that

 

[Miles]

As long as I can use dude i'm solid.

Not even sure when's the last time i've said "Boys" when referring to a group of people.

 

[BiggStankDogg]

Checking back in while I eat some food, some of the support given ITT is really great. If you're one of those people, thank you for it. <3



Guys was originally a gendered term meaning Men. The only reason it became non-gendred (and this is to most, not ALL people - some still find it gendered due to its roots) was because of male dominance in society, male gender being dominant and men being dominant in so many aspects of life that a male term crept in to mean "everyone".

And while language evolves, which is fine, it's telling when male dominated terms grow into ubiquitous terms to mean "all". It proves we still have a long way to go in terms of gender equality and understanding.

The word "boys" is fully gendered. It literally means "male adolescent". The fact so many men are cool with it becoming ubiquitous as "all" shows to me we still have a very logn way to go till we approach true gender equality.

Click to shrink...

That's my point, isn't de-gendering a word designed to be male an equalization? Your taking a thing meant to describe MEN and making it EVERYONE. Is that not a net win?

 

[astro]

That's my point, isn't de-gendering a word designed to be male an equalization? Your taking a thing meant to describe MEN and making it EVERYONE. Is that not a net win?

Click to shrink...

No it's not... it's dominating. It's pushing back actually encompassing language and pushing Male definitions onto everyone.

 

[Finale Fireworker]

If it's a miniscule percentage, let's say 1%, then it's not realistic to force the other 99% of people to change how they live. But if it's a topic where it's 49%/51%, then the 49% will be taken much more seriously. (Of course I'm not saying for this specific topic it's 1% of people, I'm just using examples.)

Click to shrink...

I unfortunately don't have a lot of time so I just want to hone in on this part specifically. This isn't to say the rest of your post doesn't matter. Normally I prefer not to selectively quote but I hope you'll forgive me in the interest of time.

I think that this mathematical approach to compassion is self-defeating. Somebody shouldn't have to be a majority (or near-majority) population for their feelings to matter.

Consider how many places you go to with handicap accessible parking spaces, bathrooms, and access ramps. These accommodations make it so people with difficulty walking can go to the same places you can, feel welcome in their own society, and not be rendered invisible by those without disabilities. This ensures the 30.6 million Americans with permanent mobility disabilities are able to live more comfortably alongside everyone else. These are all good things, no?

These 30.6 million people in wheelchairs or with walkers matter. They have worth and feelings and value. They also make up less than 1% of the United States. (EDIT: I missed a decimal point here. It is 10%, not 1%. This is my error. I believe the intent of this passage is still clear, however.)

So if we let statistics decide how compassionate we are or aren't, we would decide these people don't matter. We would decide it's not worth it to make minor concessions to accommodate them. We would decide it wasn't fair for the other 99% of the population to have to give up some parking spaces or use a ramp instead of steps.

Motivation to be kind and respectful to others shouldn't be extrinsic. You shouldn't seek external justification to be considerate. It's a personal decision you have to make for yourself.

I think accepting other people for who they are and how they want to be seen and addressed has innate value that doesn't need to be rationalized. Using ungendered language is a free, easy thing you can do to be kind and respectful to other people. It contributes to an environment where male identity is not the societal default and benefits gender equality. It supports self-expression and recognition of identity. It lets the people who care about these things know you see them and you think their feelings matter.

Maybe for you it feels foreign and strange at first to have to say "everyone" or "folks" instead or "you guys." But think of how foreign and strange gendered language can make some people feel all the time. If you could do something to change that, why wouldn't you?

 

[LordQuas]

I've only really seen weirdos on twitch saying this but I agree it's lame.

 

[Flipyap]

Guys is of course gendered. Use "gals" instead for groups of men or mixed-genders and see how it feels.

Click to shrink...

It feels just fine, though I'd prefer "girls" or "ladies" just because I don't like the sound of "gals" (but hey, at least it's not "lasses")

 

[Deleted member 41520]

For instance, if I'm lactose intolerant and feel a certain way about dairy products because I feel excluded from eating cheese sandwiches, or putting milk on my cereal - should I expect stores not to stock milk and butter and cheese because it impacts me a certain way?

OR

Should I look at the situation in a way that I understand many other people enjoy dairy, and are not adversely effected by dairy, and that they're consuming of these products in or around me is in no way an assault on my feelings, nor is it meant to exclude me from the supermarket and that asking for dairy products to be removed may be a few steps to far when I can just understand that people feel and physically react differently than me in a completely neutral and non-harmful way?

Click to shrink...

So to put it more simply - the people who would be offended by such language, should just empathise that the other people mean no harm and move past it?

If that's what you mean, then it's well-intended but there's a fine, hard-to-discern argument against it.

The gist of the argument is much easier to understand in terms of full-bodied slurs and derogatory terms, for instance the n-word or f-word. Many people might use them with 0 harmful intention but the terms are culturally loaded and may well be linked to previous traumas or abuse a listener might have experienced. Which is why western culture is quickly and heavy-handedly moving away from them. Which is great!

This case is far fuzzier: the word "boys" isn't loaded, but using it as a catch-all like this implies not considering it important. In that "the gender of who you're referring to doesn't matter". It's marginalising in a different way, through irreverence/inconsideration. Sort of whitewashing, if you get me. Ridiculous example, but it's like if you made light of cancer when someone in the group had lost a family member (maybe a long time ago) to cancer. It's more like you aren't being considerate/empathetic to your audience and might be offending them.

It's... pretty extreme I'd say and there are so many different cultural contexts and dialects that impact it differently, but it's worth bearing in mind on some level.

 

[astro]

I unfortunately don't have a lot of time so I just want to hone in on this part specifically. This isn't to say the rest of your post doesn't matter. Normally I prefer not to selectively quote but I hope you'll forgive me in the interest of time.

I think that this mathematical approach to compassion is self-defeating. Somebody shouldn't have to be a majority (or near-majority) population for their feelings to matter.

Consider how many places you go to with handicap accessible parking spaces, bathrooms, and access ramps. These accommodations make it so people with difficulty walking can go to the same places you can, feel welcome in their own society, and not be rendered invisible by those without disabilities. This ensures the 30.6 million Americans with permanent mobility disabilities are able to live more comfortably alongside everyone else. These are all good things, no?

These 30.6 million people in wheelchairs or with walkers matter. They have worth and feelings and value. They also make up less than 1% of the United States.

So if we let statistics decide how compassionate we are or aren't, we would decide these people don't matter. We would decide it's not worth it to make minor concessions to accommodate them. We would decide it wasn't fair for the other 99% of the population to have to give up some parking spaces or use a ramp instead of steps.

Motivation to be kind and respectful to others shouldn't be extrinsic. You shouldn't seek external justification to be considerate. It's a personal decision you have to make for yourself.

I think accepting other people for who they are and how they want to be seen and addressed has innate value that doesn't need to be rationalized. Using ungendered language is a free, easy thing you can do to be kind and respectful to other people. It contributes to an environment where male identity is not the societal default and benefits gender equality. It supports self-expression and recognition of identity. It lets the people who care about these things know you see them and you think their feelings matter.

Maybe for you it feels foreign and strange at first to have to say "everyone" or "folks" instead or "you guys." But think of how foreign and strange gendered language can make some people feel all the time. If you could do something to change that, why wouldn't you?

Click to shrink...

Thank you, once again, for a very well articulated post.

Added to OP.

 

[Bradbatross]

It feels just fine, though I'd prefer "girls" or "ladies" just because I don't like the sound of "gals" (but hey, at least it's not "lasses")

Click to shrink...

Yea, ladies works well.

 

[brainchild]

I try to do my best to be more inclusive with the language that I use and I can only hope that everyone else tries to do the same. Nobody wants to feel like their identities are being erased and all of us should be more considerate of that.

 

[How About No]

Many girls play the same games, they hear "where are we landing boys?"
Yet they don't make multiple threads to demand people quit using boys.
I know that doesn't mean they don't think it but I guess their are some things guys say and things girls say.

Click to shrink...

there are plenty of women and non-males in this thread saying the use of "boys" irks them

 

[N.Domixis]

Words are always evolving, to me guys is now a gender neutral word. Boys is still boys only. Never heard anyone use It to refer to group of people unless it's all boys.