Using "boys" to speak to everyone really needs to stop, and this is why.

[Littlefang]

That's not my point. My point is if you're not okay with BOYS you shouldn't be okay with GUYS. And if someone asked, I wouldn't be opposed. In this thread I haven't assumed anybody's gender. Nor have I mis-gendered anyone in this conversation.

Click to shrink...

Alright so I don't know why you are equating guys and boys as equally gender neutral terms when they're not. If I went up to a group of women and said "Hey guys" it's not strange. If I went up to a group of women and said "Hey boys" it would be very weird. Guys is typically accepted as a gender neutral term. Boys is not.

(Using women here as an example since I am one.)

 

[DyslexicAlucard]

Is your question referring to acting around real-life strangers? If so, then no I'm not going to change how I speak in real-life around people I don't know, who have not specifically said or indicated that they object to "you guys".

If I ever meet someone in real-life who specifically mentions that objection, then I may consider changing the term, but only when speaking with that person.

Click to shrink...

I don't understand this stance. You know there are a plethora of people here who have related feeling excluded due to language. It stands to reason that these people exist in decent numbers in the "real world." Let's be extremely generous and say only 1% of people feel excluded. So, knowing this, you have two choices when addressing a random group in the future:

1) Take a risk (however small) of hurting someone each time you choose to stay the course, and put the onus on them to start an awkward conversation with someone they may not even know (after the "damage is done") to let you know their feelings, or:

2) Just use a different word. Like, that's it. Zero risk, no one gets hurt, as close to zero effort possible required. You neither risk nor lose anything.

Literally, what is the point of choosing 1? Because it might not hurt anyone? Because the onus is on the (already feeling marginalized) person to approach you about it, which they may never have the chance to, or feel comfortable with? Because, despite being told it's an issue by many others, they should know you don't "intend" to exclude anyone (despite knowing it might)? I just don't understand the logic here.

 

[BiggStankDogg]

If I need to refer to them specifically relative to their gender, I will check their profile.
If you feel like you're more female one day, change your setting. Easy.

Click to shrink...

And why do you need to refer to someone by their gender? I thought that was a no-no.

And I don't have to check a box to solely stop you from assuming my gender. Or do I?

 

[Clov]

That's not my point. My point is if you're not okay with BOYS you shouldn't be okay with GUYS. And if someone asked, I wouldn't be opposed. In this thread I haven't assumed anybody's gender. Nor have I mis-gendered anyone in this conversation.

Click to shrink...

Speaking only for myself, I'm not okay with "guys". But that doesn't mean that people who are okay with it are invalid. As others have pointed out, the connotations are different.

 

[astro]

That's not my point. My point is if you're not okay with BOYS you shouldn't be okay with GUYS. And if someone asked, I wouldn't be opposed. In this thread I haven't assumed anybody's gender. Nor have I mis-gendered anyone in this conversation.

Click to shrink...

I m not 100% okay with guys. I have explained this ITT. It feels like a lost battle to me at this point, we're not changing that word now. (even though DyslexicAlucard has made a good case for keeping that fight going.... so I will have to think about it).

But we can prevent "boys" from going any further.

 

[BiggStankDogg]

Alright so I don't know why you are equating guys and boys as equally gender neutral terms when they're not. If I went up to a group of women and said "Hey guys" it's not strange. If I went up to a group of women and said "Hey boys" it would be very weird. Guys is typically accepted as a gender neutral term. Boys is not.

Click to shrink...

Now take that thought one step further. Why is it that way?

 

[astro]

And why do you need to refer to someone by their gender? I thought that was a no-no.

And I don't have to check a box to solely stop you from assuming my gender. Or do I?

Click to shrink...

Neither of these things have been suggested....

What the hell.

 

[BiggStankDogg]

Speaking only for myself, I'm not okay with "guys". But that doesn't mean that people who are okay with it are invalid. As others have pointed out, the connotations are different.

Click to shrink...

YES! Now why is that?

 

[BiggStankDogg]

Neither of these things have been suggested....

What the hell.

Click to shrink...

I merely quoted what you said. What the hell were my thoughts exactly when you wrote them in response to me.

 

[?oe?oe]

I find "guys" offensive. Please stop validating it.

Also "y'all" lol.

 

[DyslexicAlucard]

So you're saying, unless otherwise specified, it's okay to assume gender. Correct? And what if I feel female today and just forgot to check a box you monitor. Is it still okay to assume?

Click to shrink...

 

[scare_crow]

That's not my point. My point is if you're not okay with BOYS you shouldn't be okay with GUYS. And if someone asked, I wouldn't be opposed. In this thread I haven't assumed anybody's gender. Nor have I mis-gendered anyone in this conversation.

Click to shrink...

I can see the point about the "boys" language (and am all for inclusivity), but I don't know a single person who would be offended by someone approaching people and greeting them with, "hey guys." That seems like a very widely accepted term for just a group of people. Any gender seems to have been stripped from it.

 

[Vire]

Hey gang.

That's what my nana would always say.

 

[astro]

I merely quoted what you said. What the hell were my thoughts exactly when you wrote them in response to me.

Click to shrink...

No you didn't.

It's perfectly okay to refer to people by their gender once you know their gender.

The profile setting is there to TELL the forum members what your gender is, so they don't HAVE to assume.

 

[Cynn]

This is founded in a lot of prejudice regarding southern people. There's nothing inherent to "y'all" that sounds "stupid"; it only does to some because it is associated with the south, and those people believe (whether consciously or unconsciously) negative stereotypes about southern people.

I hope you don't take that as an attack, but as something to consider. I know it is something I have been guilty of in the past as well, so there's nothing to be ashamed about! Just consider why, exactly, you feel the way you do about that accent.

Click to shrink...

Like I said, I'm from the south. Born and raised. When older folk say y'all I find it quaint, even cute. We all have the aunt that makes amazing sweet tea and calls everyone sugar. (So to speak) We expect that type of slang there.

When younger people use the term it makes them sound dumb though. Excessive use of y'all is almost always paired with the other stereotypes of the region.

My intent wasn't to offend anyone and I apologize if I did. It's just how I feel and what I've observed in life. I've traveled across the country and outside of it. I know what people *think* the south is like and what it's actually like.

There's a lot of flavors of southerner too. I'm in the "hillbilly" branch as I'm from the Appalachians. lol We have terms like "Yeet?" (have you ate yet?) "Nuss" (to nurse) and "Ain't no count" (they/it's no good).

My observation is that y'all is used by three types of people: Old folks, Ignorant people and those who embrace the culture enough to use slang terms purposefully for heritage sake.

 

[astro]

Click to shrink...

It's been clear to me what's happening here for a while now, but I'm continuing to respond to highlight it for anyone reading.

I don't blame you if you cba any more! xD

 

[Clov]

And why do you need to refer to someone by their gender? I thought that was a no-no.

And I don't have to check a box to solely stop you from assuming my gender. Or do I?

Click to shrink...

This is an incredibly rude comment to make given the context, but I think you know that already.

YES! Now why is that?

Click to shrink...

Because growing up, being told "you can't wear this/do this because you're a guy" was hurtful and didn't reflect who I was.

But other people have had different experiences than me, and "guy" may have stayed in a gender neutral context for them. This isn't a one size fits all situation, where you must be okay with both or neither. You can be comfortable with one but not the other.

I'm being really open and honest with you right now, so your attitude towards this is disappointing to say the least.

 

[LudicrousSpeed]

I can see the point about the "boys" language (and am all for inclusivity), but I don't know a single person who would be offended by someone approaching people and greeting them with, "hey guys." That seems like a very widely accepted term for just a group of people. Any gender seems to have been stripped from it.

Click to shrink...

"Guy" has not had the gender stripped from it.

Imagine the most heterosexual cis guy you know. Now imagine they came up to you and said "Man, last night, I banged this really hot guy". You didn't imagine for one second he was talking about a man?

"Guys" has had a veneer applied to it where it's really about one gender, but the dominant gender so rarely pays attention to the fact that people of other genders exist that people outside of that box have had to acquaint themselves with the idea that language that erases their identity is just a thing they have to be used to.

 

[Jaq'or]

There are so many non-gendered alternate ways to phrase the same thing that it boggles my mind when people insist "but that's the only way to say it!" Like, no it's not.

 

[DyslexicAlucard]

Like I said, I'm from the south. Born and raised. When older folk say y'all I find it quaint, even cute. We all have the aunt that makes amazing sweet tea and calls everyone sugar. (So to speak) We expect that type of slang there.

When younger people use the term it makes them sound dumb though. Excessive use of y'all is almost always paired with the other stereotypes of the region.

My intent wasn't to offend anyone and I apologize if I did. It's just how I feel and what I've observed in life. I've traveled across the country and outside of it. I know what people *think* the south is like and what it's actually like.

There's a lot of flavors of southerner too. I'm in the "hillbilly" branch as I'm from the Appalachians. lol We have terms like "Yeet?" (have you ate yet?) "Nuss" (to nurse) and "Ain't no count" (they/it's no good).

My observation is that y'all is used by three types of people: Old folks, Ignorant people and those who embrace the culture enough to use slang terms purposefully for heritage sake.

Click to shrink...

No offense taken! I just think it's food for thought. It's always interesting to examine why we feel the way we do about certain things, especially when these feelings don't necessarily "make sense." Usually there's some reason for it, and it takes a bit of digging or introspection to uncover it.

Also, I know an additional type of person who uses "y'all"...



Because of him, I may be extra defensive over it! XD

 

[?oe?oe]

double post...

 

[Sophie]

Where we dropping, my non-binary acquaintances?

 

[Uno Venova]

There are so many non-gendered alternate ways to phrase the same thing that it boggles my mind when people insist "but that's the only way to say it!" Like, no it's not.

Click to shrink...

It's just been one of the more common natural ways to say it. And it's been a harmless phrase for the majority of their lives.

 

[scare_crow]

"Guy" has not had the gender stripped from it.

Imagine the most heterosexual cis guy you know. Now imagine they came up to you and said "Man, last night, I banged this really hot guy". You didn't imagine for one second he was talking about a man?

"Guys" has had a veneer applied to it where it's really about one gender, but the dominant gender so rarely pays attention to the fact that people of other genders exist that people outside of that box have had to acquaint themselves with the idea that language that erases their identity is just a thing they have to be used to.

Click to shrink...

Context when speaking is important though. No one would ever say something like that unless they were actually talking about a man. I think you could spin a million those hypotheticals if you take words at pure face value.

Again, I certainly understand the core of the thread's purpose and am empathetic to it. I'm just focusing on "guys" because I do think it's a different case (and it has been brought up a million times already).

 

[Deleted member 5127]

I am nowhere near Texas but I have always loved y' all, just sounds so fun!

I didn't know boys was a thing, I never use boys to refer to a group but I have used guys, I mostly use peeps in English.

In Dutch we just have "jongens" which means boys but it's also used as guys, we don't have both. It' s used as guys by everyone.

I think it's totally fine to ask someone to stop using a word if it reminds you of shitty experiences in your life, connotations matter. The considerate thing is to stop using it. However, some words, like boy, offends so few people that it's probably a lost cause just like the word guys, so you're probably always going to have to ask people around you to not use it.

On the other hand, I also believe there is power in getting over things and recognising the intent. When I was younger I was insecure about my sexuality and gay jokes of any sort and phrases like "that's gay" used to hurt me. Things like that don't hurt me at all anymore and I'm glad they don't, I'm pretty good at recognising when someone is being harmful to me about my sexuality.

 

[Jktpnymonorel]

Due to english being my 2nd language, I have think about this alot......
English doesn't really have a word to represent plural 2nd person pronoun, thus "you guys" comes up. Thats not gonna change for foreign speaker unless you guys (see what I mean here) invent the word. And no, y'all doesn't count

as for gaming purpose, I rather use "lets go blyat" or "lets go lah" depends on what server I play on

 

[Swiggins]

So you're saying, unless otherwise specified, it's okay to assume gender. Correct? And what if I feel female today and just forgot to check a box you monitor. Is it still okay to assume?

Click to shrink...

Bruh are you fucking serious.

 

[brainchild]

And that's the problem. Your interactions based on the pressing of this example seem to be solely weighted on impact and not at all weighted on intent. And I don't think that's fair.

And just because I don't think it's fair, doesn't mean I expect you to do anything but hear my position. I don't demand you change the way you use language or assume you have less life experience than me, which has been done TO me in this thread.

Click to shrink...

Of course people are going to place more priority on the things that tangibly affect people than whether or not the causal actors meant any harm or not. If you choose not to adjust your behavior because you don't mean for it to be harmful (even though it is), then you can expect society to continue to call you out on it. That's just how it is.

EDIT:

Didn't see that he was banned. Should have known he was trolling.

 

[DyslexicAlucard]

Due to english being my 2nd language, I have think about this alot......
English doesn't really have a word to represent collective 2nd person pronoun, thus "you guys" comes up. Thats not gonna change for foreign speaker unless you guys (see what I mean here) invent the word. And no, y'all doesn't count

as for gaming purpose, I rather use "lets go blyat" or "lets go lah" depends on what server I play on

Click to shrink...

It does have group, non-gendered pronouns though: gang, folks, everyone, people etc.. But since English isn't your native language, it's perfectly understandable not to be aware of them.

What English lacks is a non-gendered singular pronoun -- like he or she, but non-gendered. Some have suggested reforming "they", but the fact that it muddies things up due to originally being for plural pronouns makes me hesitant. I'm not gonna vehemently oppose it, but I do wish for a "cleaner" word.

 

[LudicrousSpeed]

Context when speaking is important though. No one would ever say something like that unless they were actually talking about a man. I think you could spin a million those hypotheticals if you take words at pure face value.

Click to shrink...

Context matters, but if you're seriously trying to claim that "guy" isn't gendered, it's used in that sentence in a way that "person" could be freely interchanged. I bring up that example and mention the very heterosexual cis man in there because there would be zero confusion to what they referred to if they said "I banged this really hot person last night", because even though "person" has no gender signifiers their personality fills in the gap for you. If "guy" is supposedly gender neutral, then the language I said should be equivalent. It's not, and there's a reason for it: because "guy" is gendered language.

 

[Zornack]

"Guy" has not had the gender stripped from it.

Imagine the most heterosexual cis guy you know. Now imagine they came up to you and said "Man, last night, I banged this really hot guy". You didn't imagine for one second he was talking about a man?

"Guys" has had a veneer applied to it where it's really about one gender, but the dominant gender so rarely pays attention to the fact that people of other genders exist that people outside of that box have had to acquaint themselves with the idea that language that erases their identity is just a thing they have to be used to.

Click to shrink...

Guys is not only the plural form of guy.

Also, context matters. Tons of words have different meanings depending on context.

 

[diverit]

"Guy" has not had the gender stripped from it.

Imagine the most heterosexual cis guy you know. Now imagine they came up to you and said "Man, last night, I banged this really hot guy". You didn't imagine for one second he was talking about a man?

"Guys" has had a veneer applied to it where it's really about one gender, but the dominant gender so rarely pays attention to the fact that people of other genders exist that people outside of that box have had to acquaint themselves with the idea that language that erases their identity is just a thing they have to be used to.

Click to shrink...

Just have to say that you're example highlights but one use; there are other examples.
Context is so important because a lot of what defines how language is used and consumed is fluid. Who is using it and who is receiving it? What words are used and not used? Where is the communication transpiring and how is it taking place? etc.

 

[Cynn]

No offense taken! I just think it's food for thought. It's always interesting to examine why we feel the way we do about certain things, especially when these feelings don't necessarily "make sense." Usually there's some reason for it, and it takes a bit of digging or introspection to uncover it.

Also, I know an additional type of person who uses "y'all"...



Because of him, I may be extra defensive over it! XD

Click to shrink...

lol Fellow Scott the Woz subscriber here. Love his channel.

Assuming anything is wrong really. I know that. I'm going to make an effort to break this association. It will be hard though. lol

 

[coldzone24]

As a rural Ohioan, I'm a big fan of using ya'lls. Its 100% inculsive, but you have to have the right accent to pull it off. Otherwise I use guys or sometimes ironically boiiiis, if referring to a gender neutral or mixed crowd.

 

[Deleted member 3093]

Long Story Short:

Fucking with ones language is fucking with their culture.

Attacking a culture is a huge fucking no no on these boards isn't it?

Click to shrink...

This is an incredibly stupid post, basically the same as saying "you preach tolerance yet you don't tolerate Nazis? Curious."

 

[P A Z]

There are so many non-gendered alternate ways to phrase the same thing that it boggles my mind when people insist "but that's the only way to say it!" Like, no it's not.

Click to shrink...

Some people just have to go down kicking and screaming.

 

[Jktpnymonorel]

It does have group, non-gendered pronouns though: gang, folks, everyone, people etc.. But since English isn't your native language, it's perfectly understandable not to be aware of them.

What English lacks is a non-gendered singular pronoun -- like he or she, but non-gendered. Some have suggested reforming "they", but the fact that it muddies things up due to originally being for plural pronouns makes me hesitant. I'm not gonna vehemently oppose it, but I do wish for a "cleaner" word.

Click to shrink...

I mean for a proper grammatical word, like "Jullie" for Dutch or "Euch" for German.

 

[Deleted member 12867]

I want every guy who has a problem with the OP's request to put themselves in the situation described in the quote above. If you would have a problem being referred to as 'ladies', then you're a hypocrite if you continue to refer to everyone as 'boys'. People shouldn't ask others to tolerate something they very well wouldn't tolerate themselves.

Click to shrink...

It honestly wouldn't bother me. I can tell when someone is trying to insult me or cause harm. Like I said I play with the same group of friends all the time so it hasn't been an issue, but if someone was new to the group and had issue with it then I would have no issue saying yall or everyone. I think that's the important thing if you are saying something to intentionally piss someone off then you're being an asshole and should probably knock it off.

 

[DyslexicAlucard]

Guys is not only the plural form of guy.

Also, context matters. Tons of words have different meanings depending on context.

Click to shrink...

But, similarly, the historical context of the genders is important as well. Women being lumped in under male pronouns is especially egregious because they were systematically marginalized throughout history, having their human rights denied and literally becoming owned by men in marriage (hence taking their name and being known as Mrs. John Stevenson, as an example.) For a long, long time women could not ask for a divorce, although a man could. Women could not vote, couldn't own property, were extremely limited in their career choices, were minimized by having their entire gender ignored in pronouns for a long time (see: mankind, Englishman, businessman etc.). I could go on and on.

So, with this context in mind, one can see why it is particularly problematic to revert back to male-centered language.

 

[Beatle]

"Guys" is gender neutral so I tend to use that

 

[Zornack]

But, similarly, the historical context of the genders is important as well. Women being lumped in under male pronouns is especially egregious because they were systematically marginalized throughout history, having their human rights denied and literally becoming owned by men in marriage (hence taking their name and being known as Mrs. John Stevenson, as an example.) For a long, long time women could not ask for a divorce, although a man could. Women could not vote, couldn't own property, were extremely limited in their career choices, were minimized by having their entire gender ignored in pronouns for a long time (see: mankind, Englishman, businessman etc.). I could go on and on.

So, with this context in mind, one can see why it is particularly problematic to revert back to male-centered language.

Click to shrink...

I'm talking purely on the question on whether guys is gender neutral or not, which it is.

 

[DyslexicAlucard]

I mean for a proper grammatical word, like "Jullie" for Dutch or "Euch" for German.

Click to shrink...

I'm not familiar with those words, unfortunately. Can you give me an example in English but gendered? Just so I know what you're looking for.

I'm talking purely on the question on whether its gender neutral or not, which it is.

Click to shrink...

So was the term "mankind." Current colloquial usage of a word doesn't denote its etymology, nor does it refute why it becoming a non-gendered pronoun is problematic when considered within the historical context of women being erased -- not the least of which was through similar linguistic "assimilation." Things can change, and obviously many people feel it should.

 

[YellowBara]

This shouldn't be as big an issue as it is but it fucking bothers me a ton. It's made me steer clear of voice chat in games anymore online (toxicity in general too for that matter) Anytime I offer a polite correction or an alternative, people blast back with the most vile hateful shit in chat and many times reports don't lead anywhere.

People are really really afraid to learn other ways to refer to people in my experience. Wish it would stop. It's not hard.

 

[brainchild]

It honestly wouldn't bother me. I can tell when someone is trying to insult me or cause harm. Like I said I play with the same group of friends all the time so it hasn't been an issue, but if someone was new to the group and had issue with it then I would have no issue saying yall or everyone. I think that's the important thing if you are saying something to intentionally piss someone off then you're being an asshole and should probably knock it off.

Click to shrink...

It's also a situation that you probably don't have to deal with often. Whatever it is that you do, as a male, you don't have to worry about being part of a society that continues to fail to recognize that you exist as a male within certain communities; makes a huge difference in how much you'd care about something like that.

 

[DyslexicAlucard]

This is an incredibly stupid post, basically the same as saying "you preach tolerance yet you don't tolerate Nazis? Curious."

Click to shrink...

It's "So much for the tolerant Left," the post.

 

[Deleted member 12867]

It's also a situation that you probably don't have to deal with often. Whatever it is that you do, as a male, you don't have to worry about being part of a society that continues to fail to recognize that you exist as a male within certain communities; makes a huge difference in how much you'd care about something like that.

Click to shrink...

You seem to know a lot about me considering this is our first interaction ever.

 

[Cpt-GargameL]

What should we call each other then? The term "guys" has been around probably longer than I've existed.

 

[Zornack]

So was the term "mankind." Current colloquial usage of a word doesn't denote its etymology, nor does it refute why it becoming a non-gendered pronoun is problematic when considered within the historical context of women being erased -- not the least of which was through similar linguistic "assimilation." Things can change, and obviously many people feel it should.

Click to shrink...

The people I was responding to weren't talking about history or etymology, just questioning the gender neutrality of the word as it is today.

Mankind is also largely considered gender neutral. And if you want to get into etymology, man was originally a gender neutral term before it came to mean male.

 

[DyslexicAlucard]

You seem to know a lot about me considering this is our first interaction ever.

Click to shrink...

It's not a long shot to presume a man has a male-centric experience when it comes to gender issues.

But you already know that.

The people I was responding to weren't talking about history or etymology, just questioning the gender neutrality of the word as it is today.

Click to shrink...

I know, and I was explaining why using it as such is problematic: because of its historical context. No one is saying it isn't commonly used to address both genders; the issue is why that being the case is problematic.

Mankind is also largely considered gender neutral. And if you want to get into etymology, man was originally a gender neutral term before it came to mean male.

Click to shrink...

I know mankind is gender-neutral. That was my point entirely. We're moving away from that word and towards "humankind" or "humanity" for a reason.

I... don't even know what the final part is supposed to show. Men taking a non-gendered word and making it refer to males only is obviously problematic too. But that's honestly getting too off-topic.

 

[brainchild]

You seem to know a lot about me considering this is our first interaction ever.

Click to shrink...

I did say 'probably', and that assumption is predicated on the notion of male privilege. We still live a largely patriarchal society and benefit from male privilege at every turn. There are exceptions, of course, like men who are active in communities and activities predominately populated by women, where they may not feel represented well in those areas, but for the most part, men don't have to worry about being marginalized just because they're men.