Using "boys" to speak to everyone really needs to stop, and this is why.

[astro]

You seem to know a lot about me considering this is our first interaction ever.

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brainchild said "probably" because it's true. You have described yourself as Male in your profile, so considering what we know about society it is probably true you have not come up against the specific things that post describes.

We're talking about pre-emptive inclusion ITT, yes, so if we're overlooking something please let us know and we will consider it when we approach these things.

 

[@dedmunk]

I can't believe there are people arrogant, ignorant or naive enough not to understand the issue. It's pretty plain and simple.

Just say something else ffs. Adjust.

 

[Deleted member 12867]

I did say 'probably', and that assumption is predicated on the notion of male privilege. We still live a largely patriarchal society and benefit from male privilege at every turn. There are exceptions, of course, like men who are active in communities and activities predominately populated by women, where they may not feel represented well in those areas, but for the most part, men don't have to worry about being marginalized just because they're men.

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Everyone faces obstacles and challenges. I have some pretty severe disabilities it's comes with it's own sleights and disrespect. I will admit that I rarely feel like my opinion is being shut down because of gender outside of the rare times I'm told my male opinion doesn't matter.

 

[selo]

I agree with the 'boys', because it is indicating males explicitly. Guys I've always seen more general. I personally always use ' Hey everyone'.

Also, shouldn't this be in the etcetera?

 

[astro]

This thread is FULL of people calling out disingenuous approaches, from out-right trolling to whataboutism and false equivalences.

Reminds me what a great community this is, good looking out. :)

 

[astro]

I agree with the 'boys', because it is indicating males explicitly. Guys I've always seen more general. I personally always use ' Hey everyone'.

Also, shouldn't this be in the etcetera?

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Second paragraph of the main part of the OP (not including disclaimers and notes)

This is a problem everywhere, yes, but it's prominent in gaming and this is where I see it happen a lot and why i'm asking for some consideration from the gaming community.

 

[Wolf]

It legitimately drives me nuts how "boys" has become a thing in gaming particularly lately. I don't really know why, it just irritates me.

I try to use gender neutral as much as I can. I say "y'all" a lot to the point where I've had people ask if I grew up in the south. Nope, just trying to be considerate of peeps. I will use "you guys" from time to time, but I always try to apologize and clarify if I feel someone was offended.

 

[What-ok]

It's y'all... it's always been y'all. The south using y'all to be gender neutral.

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This is my take. Makes sense. The PNW using y'all as well.

 

[How About No]

What should we call each other then? The term "guys" has been around probably longer than I've existed.

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I mean this is a several page thread people, you dont think theres a healthy amount of usable examples

 

[Moogle]

I can't believe there are people arrogant, ignorant or naive enough not to understand the issue. It's pretty plain and simple.

Just say something else ffs. Adjust.

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nah they would rather claim that guys is 'gender neutral' than give credence to the women and non-binary people in this thread who feel excluded and alienated by the term.

 

[Deleted member 12867]

Just to clarify as it appears I've upset people. I'm not saying using the term "boys" isn't offensive. I was just answering the question would being called girls or ladies offend me.

 

[Laughing Banana]

Like I said, I'm from the south. Born and raised. When older folk say y'all I find it quaint, even cute. We all have the aunt that makes amazing sweet tea and calls everyone sugar. (So to speak) We expect that type of slang there.

When younger people use the term it makes them sound dumb though. Excessive use of y'all is almost always paired with the other stereotypes of the region.

My intent wasn't to offend anyone and I apologize if I did. It's just how I feel and what I've observed in life. I've traveled across the country and outside of it. I know what people *think* the south is like and what it's actually like.

There's a lot of flavors of southerner too. I'm in the "hillbilly" branch as I'm from the Appalachians. lol We have terms like "Yeet?" (have you ate yet?) "Nuss" (to nurse) and "Ain't no count" (they/it's no good).

My observation is that y'all is used by three types of people: Old folks, Ignorant people and those who embrace the culture enough to use slang terms purposefully for heritage sake.

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Not to mention there are plenty of us here who is not a US citizen at all. Y'All is such an American thing to say.

 

[DyslexicAlucard]

Everyone faces obstacles and challenges. I have some pretty severe disabilities it's comes with it's own sleights and disrespect. I will admit that I rarely feel like my opinion is being shut down because of gender outside of the rare times I'm told my male opinion doesn't matter.

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We are not discussing your particular challenges though. We are talking about the use of male pronouns to address a mixed group of people. Your experience with this is limited to a male POV (as is mine.) That is why people point out that when you say "It honestly wouldn't bother me," you might got have the right experience or perspective on this issue to accurately asses whether you would. The entire context about what you know, experienced, and feel would be different had you grown up as a woman or non-binary.

So your opinion isn't being shut down "because you're male," but is being pushed back on because you may not have enough experience to weigh in on the subject properly.

 

[Deleted member 12867]

So your opinion isn't being shut down "because you're male," but is being pushed back on because you may not have enough experience to weigh in on the subject properly.

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I'm not saying anyone in this thread has shut down my opinion for being male, but I've legit no joke been told that before in discussions in life.

 

[BizzyBum]

 

[DyslexicAlucard]

I'm not saying anyone in this thread has shut down my opinion for being male, but I've legit no joke been told that before in discussions in life.

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Was it in the context of you talking about an issue you don't actively relate to or have experience with? This hard to express properly, so forgive my clumsiness. There is a difference between being dismissed in participating whatsoever on any topic relating to gender because you're male, and being told you do not have the requisite experience in life to fully understand the topic. The latter, ideally, should be followed by someone relating their experiences to you, as I think just telling someone to STFU wouldn't be particularly productive (unless someone says some real dumb shit, then... I could understand the frustration. :P)

Again, probably not too clear, but I'm honestly getting bleary-eyed here and need to take a break for a while.

 

[brainchild]

Everyone faces obstacles and challenges. I have some pretty severe disabilities it's comes with it's own sleights and disrespect. I will admit that I rarely feel like my opinion is being shut down because of gender outside of the rare times I'm told my male opinion doesn't matter.

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And my post wasn't meant to dismiss any challenges or obstacles that you face personally. It's why I said 'as a male', because I was specifically talking about the male perspective.

As for your disabilities, I'm sure it must be difficult to have put up with some of the bullshit that you have to put up with, and I want you to know that one of my goals in life is to amplify the voices of people with varying disabilities, as they're all too often left out of many social topics and discussions. That's the great thing about inclusive language; no one has to feel left out. And just like you probably wouldn't want to be addressed in a group as "hi, non-disableds!", women and non-binary people probably don't want to be addressed in a group as "hi, boys!". There's no need to use a specific gender as a general way to address a group that is comprised of mixed genders/non-gender, just like there isn't any need to use people's lack of disability as a general way to address a group that is comprised of people don't have a disability and people who do have a disability. There are much better ways to address a diverse group of people with varying identities.

 

[Cpt-GargameL]

I mean this is a several page thread people, you dont think theres a healthy amount of usable examples

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Ok thanks

 

[astro]

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Oh come on...

 

[SturokBGD]

I usually shout "fuckers"

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Right on, fucker!

*fucker high five*

 

[Solobbos]

I make a point of always using both he/she/them and other forms to not seem like an ass thinking everyone playing is a guy. I get shit on very much because of it, but I still think it's worth it and may even make people re-evaluate their views.

 

[Dary]

I've noticed that I'm using "dude" when talking to women to refer to them in normal conversation lately. Particularly with my wife, my sister, and close friends. For example "dude, we gotta decide where we're going to have dinner".

I wonder if that is a sign that the term is moving in a gender-neutral direction, or on the other hand I wonder if I should try to curb that usage.

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Dude has been moving into the gender neutral zone since at least the 70s. I use it in such a way myself, as do plenty of women I know.

Saying that, some people regard it as exclusively male, and ask for others not to use it, so be aware - and considerate - of your audience.

Personally, speaking, I'd rather evolve language and redefine such words than lock them in fixed, gender essentialist boxes - do that, and you're only giving those words power to cause harm.

 

[DyslexicAlucard]

Oh come on...

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Don't you see how slippery that slope is?! Better to just ignore people's polite requests for inclusion.

You know, just to be safe.

 

[How About No]

Ok thanks

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apologies if i seemed harsh but some things are really simple and obtainable with little effort lol

 

[Wulfric]

I like using these on Twitter:

"Hi guys"
"Hello y'all"
"Good morning bitches"

I see the term "YEAH BOI" thrown around here a lot but I'm not sure if that counts or not. At least at my work, many women will use the term 'guys' among themselves or in a co-ed group.

 

[BizzyBum]

If you feel like you offended someone or they outright tell you, then you can also simply ask what they prefer to be called.

 

[FarronFox]

I use guys most of the time. Never hear someone use boys in regular conversations.

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Yeah that is what I was going to say too. The only times I have heard someone say 'boys' is when everyone is a boy. I've heard many people use 'guys' though as a coverall, when if you say 'look at that guy' you'd most likely be referencing a male.

 

[Deleted member 3093]

That is a quite good point about the fact that "guys" is now gender neutral is because male = default. The only time you hear men being called gals is either in the pejorative or ironically.

 

[What-ok]

Even though we find ourselves in a male dominated culture the word choices in English can easily be non gender specific. Really doesn't take any effort at all.

 

[RedRum]

I'm American, but I have developed the habit of saying "boys" when playing hockey. Especially when there are quite a few Canadians in the league.

"Let's go, boys."
"Good job, boys."
"Let's push it at the end here, boys."

Then we started to get women on our team, I have tried damn hard to revert to using "peeps" to address my teammates, but will usually blurt out "guys". People will still blurt out boys, but now you hear things like, "Let's go boys and girls." Not quite sure anyone is offended. We are a tight-knit group and associate on and off the ice, and I haven't asked, but I believe the "boys" thing was very inconsequential for them.

 

[Nine]

I don't typically identify as being southern despite living in the south about 95% of my life, but I have always enjoyed "y'all". It's the perfect plural pronoun. In Florida we used "guys" in a nongendered manner as many others do as well but I've since grown out of that in an attempt to be more inclusive.

I do wish more people were accepting of y'all in general instead of associating southern drawl with lower intellect or something, which I see everywhere disappointingly.

 

[Anthony Hopkins]

I have used "guys" because I could not think of a replacement word, but I will use "folks" from now on.

 

[Razor Mom]

Scrolling through this thread kept putting Sabrina Salerno in my head and I've only just worked out why.

 

[brainchild]

I'm really disappointed in the criticisms of the use of the word "y'all". I'm not even a southerner, but it seems pretty prejudiced to me to say that people sound dumb when using that word, considering the stigmas about the lack of intelligence that southerners have to deal with.

I say we embrace the term. It doesn't have to be the only gender-neutral word we use, but we shouldn't reject it on the basis of irrational beliefs.

 

[RestEerie]

is 'dudes' allowed?

 

[Resilient]

Takes 0 effort to change the word you use when referring to a bunch of people.

If you can't do it, you're lazy and insensitive. It's really that simple.

I got called up on it once on era and it opened my eyes to it. This is a good thread.

 

[Antrax]

I do wish more people were accepting of y'all in general instead of associating southern drawl with lower intellect or something, which I see everywhere disappointingly

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I used to hide my Southern accent and dialect, but now I'm pretty hard on the "fuck you and yours" train towards people that wanna make assumptions about my accent. I'm a mathematician with graduate degrees. Fuck outta here if some dumbass wants to judge because I say "y'all" (a word that serves a fantastic function as a gender-neutral, 2nd person plural pronoun which does not exist outside of that dialect).

 

[Pagusas]

I think I will always use "guys" as it's baked into my brain as a word that means "group of people". But if someone told me something I said upset them, I would make an effort to not use it around them again. Like I'd never refer to the OP now with the "boy" word, not because I have any issue with it, but because I don't have any desire to upset people for no reason.

I do think there is a line though about how much society needs to flex around the feelings of an individual and how much the indiviual needs to flex around socieities norms.

 

[Deleted member 12867]

I used to hide my Southern accent and dialect, but now I'm pretty hard on the "fuck you and yours" train towards people that wanna make assumptions about my accent. I'm a mathematician with graduate degrees. Fuck outta here if some dumbass wants to judge because I say "y'all" (a word that serves a fantastic function as a gender-neutral, 2nd person plural pronoun which does not exist outside of that dialect).

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I still hide my southern accent. It only really comes out when I'm angry.

 

[The Anonymous Wizard]

Anecdotal story time: the weird old barman at my local pub uses the phrase 'alright lads?' when he greets our group of friends, even though there are just as many - at times more - girls as there are boys. My mate Celine told me that she was drinking alone in there the other day and he still said 'Alright lads' to her as he walked by... Not sure what the story is there but we all think it's hilarious.

 

[evilromero]

I agree. I roll my fucking eyes when I see a thread title like "hype! Come on in boys" or whatever. I'm a straight married guy and even I don't like the assumption of male comrade on a platform full of anonymous users. Cut that shit out. This ain't no boys club. And I'll never be your boy anyway. Here to talk games in a respectful manner. Well, respectful regarding this topic certainly.

 

[Asbsand]

I honestly think too little about gender in my daily routines to consider whether saying "boys" or "guys" hurts anyone, and in most cases I think people can tell I'm not loudly thinking "Ha, I'm gonna refer to them as male". I'll actually use "dude" jokingly a lot even if I'm addressing a girl.

 

[Montresor]

My opinion is that I absolutely will continue to use what I perceive to be gender neutral terms like boys and guys to refer to a general group of people. But if someone did tell me they were offended by that I would simply make a note to be respectful with that particular person. But I don't know. The idea that moving forward I will stop referring to general groups of people as guys seems ridiculous to me. I've read through the OP and I don't see how the practice is offensive. I'm not necesssarily seeing what being non-binary has to do with it. If it was a woman I'd feel the same way. The word "guys" especially - in colloquial terms it's quite literally used as a gender neutral catch-all/greeting.

 

[Dr. Caroll]

Until the 1500s, we called one kind "gay girls" and the other kind "knave girls". A "boy" was a male servant. I don't think I've ever heard anyone in the real world refer to a group of people as "boys". I've only ever seen it in American movies, and/or comedy skits. You know, the meddling mother comes into the room with snacks and nasally says, "How are you boys doing?" It seems, in the context of this thread, that it's some kind of sporting culture thing bleeding into gaming culture?

 

[Driggonny]

I still hide my southern accent. It only really comes out when I'm angry.

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Same, except I think I've mostly beaten the accent out of me completely. I can't bring myself to ever say "y'all" I can't even bring myself to say "howdy" back when someone says it to me. I'm broken

 

[Richiek]

Boys is definitely not gender neutral.

I have used guys for mixed gender groups in the past, but I can see why it can be upsetting for some folks.

Still, I try to use gender neutral words as much as possible. Another good example is using "humanity" or "humankind" instead of "man" or "mankind" when referring to the human race.

 

[Resilient]

My opinion is that I absolutely will continue to use what I perceive to be gender neutral terms like boys and guys to refer to a general group of people. But if someone did tell me they were offended by that I would simply make a note to be respectful with that particular person. But I don't know. The idea that moving forward I will stop referring to general groups of people as guys seems ridiculous to me. I've read through the OP and I don't see how the practice is offensive. I'm not necesssarily seeing what being non-binary has to do with it. If it was a woman I'd feel the same way. The word "guys" especially - in colloquial terms it's quite literally used as a gender neutral catch-all/greeting.

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how is addressing a group of boys and girls as "boys" gender neutral?

 

[1upmuffin]

People tease me for saying y'all a lot, but I really like it, and I'm not gonna stop! Take that, y'all.

 

[Alek]

Yeah I get it. I don't do this on ERA but sometimes with my friends online I use terms like

'lads'

and 'chaps'

but some of the people I play with, I've never really considered their gender. Like, i'll play with some ERA folks online, and they sound male so I'll say 'how are you chaps doing?' but I realise that in hindseight, I'm assuming their gender here.

Do the rest of you find yourself doing this online? I've never really thought about it. With my friends in real life, and strangers, I'm more careful, but it's easy to find myself not thinking about it when playing with people online.

 

[Jktpnymonorel]

I'm not familiar with those words, unfortunately. Can you give me an example in English but gendered? Just so I know what you're looking for.

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Say there is a football team (men/women), and the team played horribly, then the coach want to yell at them...
for foreigner, " you guys suck" will probably comes out more than y'all / y'folk / y'people suck.

because "you" in English is used in both singular and plural, we need to add an additional object to indicate that we are speaking to multiple people. This is not the case for many other languages because they have a difrent word for singular and plural 2nd person ( eg. Je (singular)-> Jullie (plural) in Dutch ). This is as gender neutral as you can get.