Using "boys" to speak to everyone really needs to stop, and this is why.

[Deleted member 23046]

The english use of "male" and "female" to qualify "man" and "woman" can be also disturbing for a foreigner. In french it's only used as a biological terminology applied to the animal kingdom (that humans are a part of), eventualy in a very intimate kinky-sexual relationship.

It would be like describing your last party night like this : "Yeah, yesterday I went outside to drink some CH3-CH2-OH and I have flirted with a female hominid mammal eukaryote."

 

[dragn]

those idiots just got it from twitch i bet, ignore those parrots

 

[How About No]

The english use of "male" and "female" to qualify "man" and "woman" can be also disturbing for a foreigner. In french it's only used as a biological terminology applied to the animal kingdom (that humans are a part of), eventualy in a very intimate kinky-sexual relationship.

It would be like describing your last party night like this : "Yeah, yesterday I went outside to drink some CH3-CH2-OH and I have flirted with a female hominid mammal eukaryote."

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Dont worry in a lot of contexts its disturbing to native speakers as well

 

[honest_ry]

Im very confused.

I only time I say boys is when boys are involved in the sentence.

My nephews: "hey sis, are the boys in?"

Wee boys in the street : "Those cunt wee boys have kicked thier ball into yer flowers again hen"

At work : "boy, I hate this place"

 

[WhiteNovember]

The problem you will always have with online interactions is people want to be their "authentic" selves. The way they speak online is typically the way they speak when they are most comfortable in real life. For instance I call my wife and friends (both male and female) "man" a lot, that is just my natural response and very much in line with my hippy persona. If I'm online, my whole sentence structure is stilted because I never write how I speak because I remove "man" constantly, you know what I mean man?

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That's exactly why this will never change. Sorry for you, astro, that you feel offended by it. And I know, that a "get used to it" or "try not to be offended" is easier to say than to do, but I fear, in some cases you really have to.

What you ask for is a change of the way people speak for decades. The change of a word, that is in no way used as an insult (I know, the one who's addressed is part of the decision, if something is an insult or not), but as a (gender) neutral word referring to the whole group that you're part of. And to be honest, I doubt it is a problem to many people. Including girls/women. I understand, that the "right" language is a highly sensitive thing. But trying to force someone to change an, intentional wise harmless, way to talk, just because there is a change, someone might be offended, is not the right way.

 

[Kaswa101]

I also use "guys" instead of "boys" to refer to a group of people. Never heard anyone using "boys" to refer a group of of men and women. That's weird.

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This

 

[surr]

I've never really used the word "boys" in any way to resemble multiple parties. Just the word "guys".

That being said I sympathize with what you have to go through on a daily basis but at the same time maybe I'm just old and cranky now. I really can't keep up with all the PC things I'm supposed to say or do now, especially living in California. I think at this point I'll just resign to offend people unintentionally and move on. I can't please everyone and maybe other better people can hold the mantle for equality for all but that is not going to be me.

 

[tommy7154]

I'm in the Midwest US and I don't know that I've ever heard "boys" used to describe both men and women. It would immediately sound odd in reference to any women. "Guys" on the other hand is frequent.

Where is "boys" used?

 

[Jonathan Lanza]

Yeah - with all due respect, I understand it can upset you, but realistically, this just won't ever change. We'll all be worm food in the ground and English speakers will still be using guys or boys to refer to a large group of people as a normal part of their vocabulary regardless of audience.

On a personal level, i'd never change this in my own verbal lexicon. Words that are offensive, sure, but this is not one of those words. And if I were the type of person who were offended by someone just calling a group of people guys, I wouldn't ask the world to change itself just to spare my feelings on the matter, nor have that expectation that i'm owed this change.

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So if someone politely asked you to refer to them a certain way you would say no?

 

[NotLiquid]

I've barely seen anyone use the word "boys" in a way that isn't meant to at least be somewhat self aware, primarily because no one uses the word "boy" the same way one informally uses "dude". The former in particular implies a particularly patronizing identifier due to its associating with younger people. "Where we dropping guys/dudes?" just doesn't have that same self deprecation.

 

[jipewithin]

So if someone politely asked you to refer to them a certain way you would say no?

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Wouldn't say no but thing is I already have very hard time sometimes to remember names and if you add something extra to it it's just not going to work out. If someone who I know asks then sure but if it's just "someone" then I mean it's just not possible. Meaning that if next time comes later I will not even remember the name.

 

[trugs26]

Yeah "boys" is clearly not a good way to address a group. For me, I often say "guys" but I'm trying to correct myself on that one. A bad habbit.

 

[SilverArrow20XX]

I very rarely hear "boys" used to refer to groups of people at all, unless it's to like, a boy scout troop, or a children's sports team or something. Or maybe if someone's imitating military movie talk, which is what most of the examples in the OP sound like.

"Guys" and "Dudes" on the other hand is commonly used for everybody and I even regularly see groups of all women use it for each other.

 

[Iztok]

I think you'll find that if you ask, most decent people will happily accomodate you.

Not sure you can realistically expect everyone (some, sure, but not everyone) to avoid using the term by simply declaring it offensive/harmful.
Pretty sure that's been shown not to work particularly well in the past few years.

My own language is a bit more complicated, as our verbs are gendered, but the plural is always gender neutral, which works out great.

 

[Jonathan Lanza]

Wouldn't say no.

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Then there's REALLY no issue. You're all severely over complicating a simple problem. Refer to people how they wish to be referred to as a show of basic respect.
If you forget what to call them, ask. That's it, that's the end of it. No ifs buts and maybes about what is realistic and the nature of philosophy and all that shit, none of that matters. It's a simple polite request.

 

[aevanhoe]

I like using "people". Like, "ok people, this is it!" Or "hey, people". I think it's a good suggestion. Please don't use "y'all" :)

 

[CrazyAndy]

Never heard anyone using boys. I also use "guys" most of the time, sometimes even "dudes", to address everyone.

 

[iswasdoes]

I think you're really overplaying the idea that you're going to make it awkward because making a mountain out of that mole hill becomes a personal excuse for why you don't need to bother recalibrating your vocabulary.

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I don't think that's fair because I'm actively trying to do that.It's not that I can't be bothered and I can and will change my sentence structure to make it work, but there will be times when that sounds not natural and therefore awkward. I'm not saying referring to them as the team is awkward in itself, but more it would have sounded awkward in that specific sentence in that specific context. Because sometimes you need to address the group directly.

And I still haven't heard a truly gender neutral term to address a mixed group of people directly especially in a professional context (please beleave me when I tell you I can't say folks or y'all - these words would sound like I'm taking the piss in middle class British society)

So if guys is gonna continue to be problematic then I think we need a new piece of language over here. But that itself is hard to do, and I can see why it's an attractive option evolve an existing one (like we have with 'them' and 'their') when it's already widely used and accepted and I think generally doesn't cause offence. Is the male gendered etymology of 'guys' so upsetting to some people that we can't do this? If so then it has to go, but it needs a proper replacement

 

[Cliff Steele]

Where we droppin' you sick fucks?

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I like that.

It has class and urgency.

 

[MarsipanRumpan]

I have a question (which may have gotten asked in thread) - I overall agree with you, ofcourse. But is it okay to use "boys" if you're in a chat of 5 guys, all identifying as men? Because I talk on the daily with 4 dudes and all of us use "boys" religiously between the 5 of us only

 

[Mr. Capo]

OH great now I feel the need...... the need for shirtless volleyball! OWWW!

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Bodies working overtime tbh.

I have a question (which may have gotten asked in thread) - I overall agree with you, ofcourse. But is it okay to use "boys" if you're in a chat of 5 guys, all identifying as men? Because I talk on the daily with 4 dudes and all of us use "boys" religiously between the 5 of us only

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Only if Kenny Loggins or Imagine Dragons starts playing.

 

[Deleted member 29599]

Is this an American thing? I don't think i've heard this used much. I do personally use "guys" as a generic term to refer to people regardless of gender. I know that originally the term was used to refer to men but language evolves and i genuinely believe that most people would consider "guys" a non gender specific term and the intent of people who do use it (me included) isn't done to provoke or exclude, in fact just the opposite. Would i still use that term if it was generally accepted in modern language usage to be exclusionary? No, i'd try to train myself to stop saying it, but i don't believe that this is the case.

I have some sympathy for the OP because as a gay man i used to get so enraged when people would use the word "gay" as a derogatory term i.e. that's so gay etc. After i came out to my family i would still have to correct family members like my little sister who would use that phrase and i used to be quite militant about it, to the point where i probably came across as a bit of an arsehole. These days i'm much more chill out it because for me personally of all the hills to die on it's just not worth it to me. But i think intent is a very important thing to keep in mind. My family members didn't mean to say hurtful shit, it was just something that was part of their vocabulary. I would hope that most people who use the words "boys" in the way that the OP is referring to do it because it's become some sort of popular shorthand, not because they are intent on weaponising the word in some way to make it an exclusive term as opposed to an inclusive one.

I think for the OP's sanity it would be useful to develop a coping mechanism for this kind of thing. Should people use more inclusive language at all times? Sure. Is it going to happen? No. In fact, it can have the opposite effect, there are people who may use terms that aren't inclusive not specifically intending to but then go out of their way to do so if they realise it can offend others. Little bit of a Streisand effect if you will. I'm cis-male, caucasian and my homosexuality isn't overt enough in my personality that I out myself whenever i open my mouth so i'm sort of lucky in a sense that i have that privilege, so take this for what you will. I do think that it would be healthy for the OP and anyone else who don't conform to any specific gender identity or are gender fluid to find ways to make sure that gendered words no longer have power over them. I became a much happier person when i no longer allowed words like poof or fag to cause me offence. God knows there's enough things in life and our society to bring us down, anything you can do to reduce this has got to be a good thing.

 

[Kyra]

I like that.

It has class and urgency.

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and honesty.

 

[MarsipanRumpan]

Only if Kenny Loggins or Imagine Dragons starts playing.

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Ah fuck then its not okay - going to begin with the suggestion of sick fucks instead lol

 

[Vex]

Where we droppin' you sick fucks?

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Oh, c'mon HAHAHAHHAA

 

[Mr. Capo]

Ah fuck then its not okay - going to begin with the suggestion of sick fucks instead lol

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Not even Danger Zone?

 

[Deleted member 29599]

Thanks for bringing this up, OP. I've been using "folks" and "y'all" to replace "guys" as a catch-all term.

Folks in this thread who for whatever reason are against this, it's really not that hard. You lose absolutely nothing for making this change and gain the respect of people who deserve the baseline level of respect that we automatically give to straight men.

EDIT: FYI, I'm a Filipino who has lived in the Philippines my entire life and learned English as a second language. If a person like me from a country halfway across the world relative to America can adjust to use "folks" and "y'all" or any other non-gendered catch-all pronoun, I don't think anyone with English as their first or only language has an excuse.

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I would actually argue that for people who's native language isn't English it's probably easier to adjust or change their usage of English words because it's not so ingrained in their vocabulary. Also i think people who are multi-lingual (i grew up in Holland so speak Dutch and English) have been able to learn certain skills pertaining to language that someone who only speaks English have not. My brain has learned to process the concept of a word meaning different things in different languages, now i'm no linguist but it seems to make sense that you then develop more of a detachment to the meanings of words because you learn how they they can change and the context in which they are used can vary wildly. It always amuses me in that Dutch there are 3 different suffixes to add to a word to describe it as a smaller version of itself, you either add je, tje or pje. There is no logical reasoning for using whichever one is correct, just like there is no logical reasoning for silent letters in the English language i.e. Knight.

Now you try and tell someone who only speaks English and who has used the same terms and the same vocabulary for 20, 30, 40, 50 years and more than they have to unlearn something that has decades worth of usage embedded in their way of speaking. No wonder people struggle, even if they want to change. Basically, language is weird and flawed at the best of times and maybe the real lesson is to treat it for what it is, just a primitive way of communicating that lacks a lot of nuance when written down.

That phrase "think before you speak"? No one actually does that. Imagine how stilted it would be to speak to people if everyone took the time to mull over every possible permutation and variation of a word to then verbalise it in a way that would cause the least offence. Frankly i can't think of anything worse.

 

[Stalker]

How about we stop micro policing terms because some people want to be offended. If someone says boys it's very obvious the intention is group inclusion and not to exclude based on identity. If you then decide you want to be offended because they unknowingly used a term that offended you and offended you because of a very mild very small reason then that's on you. Its fine to be offended that's life sometimes you will encounter things you don't like but I don't see a reason to curb usage of such a inoffensive term.

 

[Dan]

no.

 

[trugs26]

How about we stop micro policing terms because some people want to be offended. If someone says boys it's very obvious the intention is group inclusion and not to exclude based on identity. If you then decide you want to be offended because they unknowingly used a term that offended you and offended you because of a very mild very small reason then that's on you. Its fine to be offended that's life sometimes you will encounter things you don't like but I don't see a reason to curb usage of such a inoffensive term.

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Because it feels exclusionary, regardless of intention. Seems extremely obvious to me.

 

[Munti]

I'm sorry for you OP and I can understand that you might suffer of it.
But I can't agree that this term is harmful. It is basically a synonym for 'folks' in the context. It just happens that it derived from a gendered word.
Of course if a person has issues that this word is being used, I will have no problems to use another vocabular in front of that person. But as soon as said person is not around, I don't see any harm to use "boys" again.
And there's no bad intentions behind it.

 

[Resilient]

How about we stop micro policing terms because some people want to be offended. If someone says boys it's very obvious the intention is group inclusion and not to exclude based on identity. If you then decide you want to be offended because they unknowingly used a term that offended you and offended you because of a very mild very small reason then that's on you. Its fine to be offended that's life sometimes you will encounter things you don't like but I don't see a reason to curb usage of such a inoffensive term.

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imagine missing the point this hard. Nobody is deciding to be offended. The term is exclusionary. exclusionary terms are offensive to the people they exclude. Is it really that hard to understand? Just because YOU aren't offended doesn't mean it isn't offensive. fucking come on!

 

[WhiteNovember]

Because it feels exclusionary, regardless of intention. Seems extremely obvious to me.

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You cant say per se. There is a Chance, someone is offended/excluded by it. But there is a bigger Chance, that People dont care or feel as part of a Group. I know, there is this transmiter/Receiver Thing and if someone feels offended by stuff like this, the Person should speak up and is hopefully treat the correct way (aka "stop using word xy as Long as we Play with said Person). General restriction of a word just because someone could be offended, nope.

 

[take_marsh]

Spoiler: gif explanation

this gif is from Letterkenny, a Canadian show where these two use 'boys' A LOT in and out of a hockey locker room.

You won't catching me using anything like, "let's go boys!" unless I'm talking about my imaginary son's little league team which is now all-inclusive so I've made a huge mistake saying "let's go boys!" and must correct myself to say, "let's go team" because I want to be better at not being exclusionary.

So in the end, I agree. If addressing everyone, it's best to avoid using 'boys'. It can also be pretty easy. I also feel that using 'guys' is okay, but generally I've tried to avoid using it when addressing an 'everyone'. 'Guys' still refers to men by dictionary definition, but it also is defined to cover persons in general. I generally have tried to avoid it.

 

[RF Switch]

It just seems like you are trying to shoehorn the term boys as bad as calling something gay which isn't even close. Any word can offend anyone and most words that people are trying to change the worlds outlook on have long been used in a hateful way. This just makes changing people's opinions on those type of words harder. I am sorry that term makes you feel that way OP but nobody has ever used that term as hateful towards you...until maybe you told them it makes you feel that way because well online gaming

 

[tommy7154]

Again I've never heard a girl be referred to as boy, but It's pretty easy to imagine if the common phrase was "gals". Guys would be like uhhhh and maybe laugh at first but if it was more common some men would be offended.

 

[How About No]

How about we stop micro policing terms because some people want to be offended. If someone says boys it's very obvious the intention is group inclusion and not to exclude based on identity. If you then decide you want to be offended because they unknowingly used a term that offended you and offended you because of a very mild very small reason then that's on you. Its fine to be offended that's life sometimes you will encounter things you don't like but I don't see a reason to curb usage of such a inoffensive term.

Click to shrink...

 

[trugs26]

You cant say per se. There is a Chance, someone is offended/excluded by it. But there is a bigger Chance, that People dont care or feel as part of a Group. I know, there is this transmiter/Receiver Thing and if someone feels offended by stuff like this, the Person should speak up and is hopefully treat the correct way (aka "stop using word xy as Long as we Play with said Person). General restriction of a word just because someone could be offended, nope.

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I can't imagine any female being okay with the term "boys". That kind of language is typical in men's sports teams or groups of men. Taking it outside of that group seems obviously exclusionary to me.

 

[Stalker]

Because it feels exclusionary, regardless of intention. Seems extremely obvious to me.

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Only when op decides it does. They are fine with "guys" another member might not be but this thread sets a status quo where boys is bad but guys is fine until guys isn't fine it's a continual revision of terms that all ultimately mean "group".

Guys isn't a gender neutral term entirely but OP isn't offended by it so it's a pick and choose when to be offended scenario and I don't understand why am entire forum should bend to the whim because a few members at one moment decide to ban a word.

imagine missing the point this hard. Nobody is deciding to be offended. The term is exclusionary. exclusionary terms are offensive to the people they exclude. Is it really that hard to understand? Just because YOU aren't offended doesn't mean it isn't offensive. fucking come on!

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Lol drop the faux outrage. It's silly. People are absolutely deciding to be offended, You know what 99.9% of people do when they see shit they don't like online? They scroll and ignore, except in circumstances like this.

OP is fine with guys. Guys is a gendered term and has a gender opposite "gals". Similarly everyone suggesting Folks doesn't work because it's common in parts of the UK to only call parents "folks" so unless your a parent you are equally as excluded and have the potential to be offended.

It's fucking OBVIOUS from the usage of the term that "boys" is intended to be group inclusive or should we just stop talking about genders entirely? Lets ban any gendered words from the entire dictionary. Oh and if your native language has any gendered words at all you have to stop speaking it.

I can't imagine any female being okay with the term "boys". That kind of language is typical in men's sports teams or groups of men. Taking it outside of that group seems obviously exclusionary to me.

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Strange because I know plenty of women who are absolutely fine with it

 

[tommy7154]

Only when op decides it does. They are fine with "guys" another member might not be but this thread sets a status quo where boys is bad but guys is fine until guys isn't fine it's a continual revision of terms that all ultimately mean "group".

Guys isn't a gender neutral term entirely but OP isn't offended by it so it's a pick and choose when to be offended scenario and I don't understand why am entire forum should bend to the whim because a few members at one moment decide to ban a word.



Lol drop the faux outrage. It's silly. People are absolutely deciding to be offended, You know what 99.9% of people do when they see shit they don't like online? They scroll and ignore, except in circumstances like this.

OP is fine with guys. Guys is a gendered term and has a gender opposite "boys". Similarly everyone suggesting Folks doesn't work because it's common in parts of the UK to only call parents "folks" so unless your a parent you are equally as excluded and have the potential to be offended.

It's fucking OBVIOUS from the usage of the term that "boys" is intended to be group inclusive or should we just stop talking about genders entirely? Lets ban any gendered words from the entire dictionary. Oh and if your native language has any gendered words at all you have to stop speaking it.




Strange because I know plenty of women who are absolutely fine with it

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I disagree completely. If I heard a group of girls being referred to as boys, it'd irk me. As a guy I'd be offended for them. Like I said though I've never once heard a group of women or a mix of genders be reffered to as "boys". Still wondering who the hell even says this.

The only time I can even imagine it is if a group of people were like 99% men and some speaker said "boys" by mistake, not even realizing a girl was present.

 

[Ivory Samoan]

Not sure about other countries, but here in NZ we use the term "Guys" to address a room, but Boys seems off to me too OP.

 

[Blackbird]

Noted!

Will try my best to read my surroundings before saying anything like it, that's the least i can do.

 

[Resilient]

Only when op decides it does. They are fine with "guys" another member might not be but this thread sets a status quo where boys is bad but guys is fine until guys isn't fine it's a continual revision of terms that all ultimately mean "group".

Guys isn't a gender neutral term entirely but OP isn't offended by it so it's a pick and choose when to be offended scenario and I don't understand why am entire forum should bend to the whim because a few members at one moment decide to ban a word.



Lol drop the faux outrage. It's silly. People are absolutely deciding to be offended, You know what 99.9% of people do when they see shit they don't like online? They scroll and ignore, except in circumstances like this.

OP is fine with guys. Guys is a gendered term and has a gender opposite "boys". Similarly everyone suggesting Folks doesn't work because it's common in parts of the UK to only call parents "folks" so unless your a parent you are equally as excluded and have the potential to be offended.

It's fucking OBVIOUS from the usage of the term that "boys" is intended to be group inclusive or should we just stop talking about genders entirely? Lets ban any gendered words from the entire dictionary. Oh and if your native language has any gendered words at all you have to stop speaking it.




Strange because I know plenty of women who are absolutely fine with it

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All that ignorance is on you my friend.

Would you greet a group of men online with "girls"? Probably not, right? Unless you were taking the piss. So why is it OK to use "boys" regardless of the group composition? Because....it's been normalised. And that's the issue. Why is one normalised and the other isn't? And why is it so hard to change that habit to reduce the exclusionary impact of it?

Its not faux outrage. It's just frustrating to see so many people , like yourself, handwave something because YOU think it's a non issue. That's just selfish whether you think so or not. I don't care how many people you know are fine with it. You've got people expressing their distaste for it, And rightly so. Why are you above that?

 

[Stalker]

I disagree completely. If I heard a group of girls being referred to as boys, it'd irk me. As a guy I'd be offended for them. Like I said though I've never once heard a group of women or a mix be reffered to as "boys". Still wondering who the hell even says this.

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And this is what happens when a world exists in which multiple different locations speak and have variances on a single language. You might find it strange and offensive and a multitude of other places won't

There's a term "scally" which in parts of england is ridiculously offensive and others not at all. Except the internet is an even bigger mash up of cultures and yet some people decide they have to fix it to be exactly like the one they want and no other

 

[CrazyAndy]

I disagree completely. If I heard a group of girls being referred to as boys, it'd irk me. As a guy I'd be offended for them.

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Being offended for someone else? What?

 

[Mexen]

It's so simple.

From now on, this is what we use.

 

[How About No]

OP is fine with guys. Guys is a gendered term and has a gender opposite "gals". Similarly everyone suggesting Folks doesn't work because it's common in parts of the UK to only call parents "folks" so unless your a parent you are equally as excluded and have the potential to be offended.

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Im not 100% okay with guys. I have explained this ITT. It feels like a lost battle to me at this point, we're not changing that word now. (even though @DyslexicAlucard has made a good case for keeping that fight going.... so I will have to think about it).

But we can prevent "boys" from going any further.

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Umm not really lol

Strange because I know plenty of women who are absolutely fine with it

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Plenty of women in this very thread voiced that they aren't. Of course, they're only choosing to be outraged

 

[Cyn]

This seems like an America specific problem to me. Being raised in Scotland, the term "guys" was always taken as gender neutral term for a mixed collective. The term "mates" was usually applied to my group of male friends, and "boys" was never really used, unless applied to a group of males, but then you're more likely to hear "lads" unless it's in a professional context. It was the same for my parents growing up, I remember having discussions at home about "guy" and "guys" and how they contextually mean different things. I found it very confusing, but there are quite a few confusing rules in English that require context for understanding, or just are that way because of how it is.

I'm seeing a lot of what I assume to be American's commenting that everyone should just use "Y'all" without taking in to consideration any of the other English speaking nations, accents and International English. To me it sounds ridiculous and lazy, but you do you.

I can absolutely get behind not using "boys" as a collective, it does irritate me to hear so many Streamers and Youtubers, again majority American, constantly use "boys" when referring to a collective. It always feels like an inappropriate use of the term and it is exclusionary and ignorant. I rarely ever have seen a British person use "boys" collectively, and when I have it generally has been in a mocking or sarcastic way. I feel a lot of International English, or second language speakers, may pick up on "boys" from exposure to the dominance of American media and voices in the West.

Merriam-Webster definition:
Definition of guy
(Entry 1 of 4)
1a: MAN, FELLOW
b: PERSON —used in plural to refer to the members of a group regardless of sex

Oxford English Dictionary definition:
guy

NOUN

• 1 informal A man.
  'he's a nice guy'
  
  More example sentences
  Synonyms
  1. 1.1 guys People of either sex.
     'you guys want some coffee?'

Going by the both major dictionary definitions, "boys" is very specific to males, where as "guys" is not.

Maybe y'all just need to English better :P

 

[tommy7154]

Being offended for someone else? What?

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Is that hard to fathom? I do it by flipping the circumstances. If I'm in a group of mostly women and someone says "OK ladies..." some men would be offended. I personally wouldn't, but I could certainly see it happening.

 

[Deleted member 40102]

"Let's go people!" doesn't sound unusual at all. People is in fact a perfect replacement for pretty much all of those.



Why?

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Really you would call close friends lets go people ? I would rather use lets go guys sorry.