Using "boys" to speak to everyone really needs to stop, and this is why.

[WhiteNovember]

I can't imagine any female being okay with the term "boys". That kind of language is typical in men's sports teams or groups of men. Taking it outside of that group seems obviously exclusionary to me.

Click to shrink...

I have 3 women (20-25 years old) here in the same Office/room and asked them, how they would feel about it (using the german equivalent). 2 of them said they wouldnt mind and dont see it as a gender Thing. The third said that she is part of a mixed Group where this happens and she could not care less. I know, that my girlfriend would not mind.

This of Course has not the weight of a Research, but I really dont think this is a Problem for everyone who isnt a boy. If I would use Terms like that and someone would ask me directly, not do do it anymore, It wouldnt be a Problem for me in this specific case. Otherwise I see it as a unnecessary restriction of the way I speak.

 

[Stalker]

All that ignorance is on you my friend.

Would you greet a group of men online with "girls"? Probably not, right? Unless you were taking the piss. So why is it OK to use "boys" regardless of the group composition? Because....it's been normalised. And that's the issue. Why is one normalised and the other isn't? And why is it so hard to change that habit to reduce the exclusionary impact of it?

Its not faux outrage. It's just frustrating to see so many people , like yourself, handwave something because YOU think it's a non issue. That's just selfish whether you think so or not. I don't care how many people you know are fine with it. You've got people expressing their distaste for it, And rightly so. Why are you above that?

Click to shrink...

But thats not the argument here.

Guys is a gendered term as normalised as boys is. One is fine for the OP one isn't. It's picking and choosing what to be offended about. OP is fine with normalised "guys" but not normalised "boys"

I wouldn't use girls you're correct because it's not normalised.

But part of it being normalised to apply to any group means that the ones who use it see it as addressing a "group" and not just a "group of men" and honestly if the intention is to be inclusive then choosing to be excluded by that is on the individual. Of course the world can change every term that people deem to be exclusive because of the way the decided to feel that day but it's micro policing. People are required to have some self restraint and to look at something that offends them and move on and the world has always existed like that because if we adapt to everything that anyone anywhere can deem offensive for very minor reasons in the grand scheme then whats left is a sanitized barely expressive culture. Word policing is always dumb because you can always find a word that's offensive to you.

You know what also isn't amazing but happens. People expressing beliefs about a topic and then getting quoted with "not this shit again" and other equally dismissive terms. Should I start a thread about not using dismissive terms in replies because they offend me?

 

[Stalker]

Plenty of women in this very thread voiced that they aren't. Of course, they're only choosing to be outraged

Click to shrink...

Plenty of women vs plenty of women. So It's pick and choose where I put my faith and I put that in people I actively know and like as opposed to people in this forum who have proven that they will stan for anything they deem "progressive"

 

[astro]

One is fine for the OP one isn't.

Click to shrink...

No, guys is not fine with me. As has been pointed out to you, twice now. So please stop bringing that up as some kind of gotcha, thank you.

"Let me say, I'm personally fine with the word guys (in that I've accepted it will never change)"

This is "fine" as in "resolved to defeat" about that word.

 

[Kyzer]

Gender dysphoria is a real thing and it's serious, more people should know that, but. Calling people "boys" is completely benign, people's intentions obviously have nothing to do with the gender of the word or assigning a gender to anyone. While I can't say that just because I wouldn't be offended by being misgendered doesn't invalidate yours or your friends feelings, to think of everything in relation to an internal struggle that is especially sensitive compared to a typical person and expect that people be sensitive to it is a negative lens that could be linked to depression, trauma, and anxiety. Just like someone might be really genuinely hurt by jokes about a significant other cheating on them or children being spanked for their behavior, it doesn't really make sense to treat everyone as if they have a grave traumatic reaction to otherwise standard topics of conversation. There is nothing wrong with being a boy, nothing inherently "wrong" about being presumed to be the wrong gender with no context, and much less is there something wrong with being called a boi which is literally a colloquial term at this point

 

[Stalker]

I rarely ever have seen a British person use "boys" collectively, and when I have it generally has been in a mocking or sarcastic way.

Click to shrink...

As a brit this is exclusivly my usage of the term but my intention apparently doesn't matter because some unknown recipient may be offended.

No, guys is not fine with me. As has been pointed out to you, twice now. So please stop bringing that up as some kind of gotcha, thank you.

"Let me say, I'm personally fine with the word guys (in that I've accepted it will never change)"

This is "fine" as in "resolved to defeat" about that word.

Click to shrink...

You can't say your fine with a word then decide you're also not fine with it. It's one or the other. Either you will role your eyes and move on or you will make a thread about it. But if you admit guys is gendered and then say people have to stop using boys because it's equally as gendered then you're own argument weakens. You are deciding on a per word basis about the same topic what to be offended enough by that you want to ban it.

 

[astro]

Plenty of women vs plenty of women. So It's pick and choose where I put my faith and I put that in people I actively know and like as opposed to people in this forum who have proven that they will stan for anything they deem "progressive"

Click to shrink...

Some people don't mind it, great for them

For others it's exclusive.

One small change on your part, one tiny concession to use a few different words sometimes, could be a huge change for other people.

Why not do that?

 

[Rckstar]

Would you greet a group of men online with "girls"? Probably not, right?

Click to shrink...

Well, yes, i do that...

 

[astro]

As a brit this is exclusivly my usage of the term but my intention apparently doesn't matter because some unknown recipient may be offended.

Click to shrink...

Read this:

INTENT Vs IMPACT

You're thinking about this in terms of intention instead of impact.


People say and do all kinds of things and not intend to hurt someone else. That doesn't mean they don't. Probably in your lifetime you have known people who used homophobic language or derogatory terms for differently-abled people to describe things they don't like. But people have largely stopped using language like this because, regardless of how it is intended, it has a negative impact on the people around them. We now have a different and healthier expectation from others as a result.


The request in this thread is not as severe of a case. This situation is more about courtesy, visibility, and respect. But it's the same idea that people use language they are accustomed without always thinking about how it is perceived. You probably don't mean to be disrespectful. You probably don't mean to exclude women or non-binary people from your conversation. But this is often a side-effect of the language you use whether you intend it to or not.


So if you don't want to do that, why not make the small, free change to make sure you don't?



I'll give you another example that may be more relatable. I used to work with a guy whose older brother was very popular. Everybody called the older brother "Mappy." When the younger brother started getting older and making friends, everybody called him "Mappy Jr". People meant this as a lighthearted joke about him being a popular guy's little brother. But he really hated this nickname because it put him in his older brother's shadow at all times. People wouldn't see him or greet him without implicitly acknowledging that he was somebody else's sibling. It made him feel like people didn't care about who he was, or what he liked, because everybody liked his brother more. He asked people to stop calling him that after a few years, and people felt bad, so they stopped.


What you say and what you do has consequences you may not intend. Something that feels normal and harmless to you might be disrespectful to somebody else. Chances are if someone you knew and liked asked you to stop calling them something, you would. It's not hard to show that same courtesy to others too. You lose nothing by doing it, so why wouldn't you?

Click to shrink...

 

[Deleted member 51789]

'Boys' and 'Guys' are good terms to use when everyone you're with is male.

If there are people who identify as women/NB in the group, it really isn't that hard to change tack and use terms like 'folks', 'everyone', y'all' etc. (though 'y'all' sounds super unnatural if you're not North American...)

Mistakes happen but if someone tells you they're uncomfortable with a term, maybe listen to them and stop using it?

 

[Annoying Old Party Man]

This is a non - issue in my language. When you are referring to a group you say "people" or "pedia" which means kids but can be used to adults too.

But I remember teachers in the university suggesting that we use "she" when we want to hypothesise about a person for reasons of courtesy - because "he" has been dominant for no reason, for so long. I'm totally in for it though I don't know if the OP would prefer something gender-agnostic in this case.

I also agree with the OP that this should be stopped (saying "guys" or "boys" when you refer to a group of people) but I don't agree with the highlighted post that equates the way genders are used in a language with the needs of people with disabilities - the first is more of a PC thing, the second is about hampering the quality of life for a group of people.

-edit- also, uh, why is this in the gaming forum?

 

[SCB360]

I thought Guys was generally considered to mean anyone and not male anymore?

Edit: I tend to use peeps anyway, I don't think I can offend anyone then I guess

 

[astro]

I don't agree with the highlighted post that equates the way genders are used in a language with the needs of people with disabilities - the first is more of a PC thing, the second is about hampering the quality of life for a group of people.

Click to shrink...

The post doesn't equate this with those, in fact it literally says "this is not as severe as those" so it actually distances itself from them.

What it does do is use those exampels to show Intent Vs impact, to try to help you understand how that happens here too.

 

[ParmeSean]

Well, yes, i do that...

Click to shrink...

Same

 

[Jedeye Sniv]

'Boys' and 'Guys' are good terms to use when everyone you're with is male.

If there are people who identify as women/NB in the group, it really isn't that hard to change tack and use terms like 'folks', 'everyone', y'all' etc. (though 'y'all' sounds super unnatural if you're not North American...)

Mistakes happen but if someone tells you they're uncomfortable with a term, maybe listen to them and stop using it?

Click to shrink...

But how do you know if someone you think is male is actually NB and keeping quiet about it? Best to remove gender entirely to be safe.

 

[Kismet]

Gender dysphoria is a real thing and it's serious, more people should know that, but. Calling people "boys" is completely benign, people's intentions obviously have nothing to do with the gender of the word or assigning a gender to anyone. While I can't say that just because I wouldn't be offended by being misgendered doesn't invalidate yours or your friends feelings, to think of everything in relation to an internal struggle that is especially sensitive compared to a typical person and expect that people be sensitive to it is a negative lens that could be linked to depression, trauma, and anxiety. Just like someone might be really genuinely hurt by jokes about a significant other cheating on them or children being spanked for their behavior, it doesn't really make sense to treat everyone as if they have a grave traumatic reaction to otherwise standard topics of conversation. There is nothing wrong with being a boy, nothing inherently "wrong" about being presumed to be the wrong gender with no context, and much less is there something wrong with being called a boi which is literally a colloquial term at this point

Click to shrink...

Agreed.

Also agree with Stalker.

Besides my male boss and me, there are only women working in the company. And none of them understand this topic lol.

But as I said, it all depends on the person. And the internet always seems to be more loud and sensitive.

There are just soooo many other actually bad words that one can use to offend and seclude a person....

 

[Stalker]

Read this:

INTENT Vs IMPACT

Click to shrink...

I'm not ignorant to this, My argument is that there's degrees with these things. Homophobic language sure that's shitty, I've been a recipient I understand the feeling. What this is about is a gaming forum mainly composed of males and online gaming networks mainly being comprised of males not using a term that applies to the vast majority because some people of different identifying genders may take issue with it (or may not). It's micro, it's small you are in the very small minority despite it being a vocal one and yet you are suggesting we start outlawing words because of that.

Like I said above.

Intent is very relevant.
There's thousands of words that can be deemed offensive by any number of people.
Individuals have a responsibility to look past smaller issues like this.

 

[WhiteNovember]

Why not do that?

Click to shrink...

Because you expect People to Change the way they speak for decades just because there is a (probably small) Chance, someone might be offended by a word they are using in a harmless way. Thats why.

 

[astro]

I'm not ignorant to this, My argument is that there's degrees with these things. Homophobic language sure that's shitty, I've been a recipient I understand the feeling. What this is about is a gaming forum mainly composed of males and online gaming networks mainly being comprised of males not using a term that applies to the vast majority because some people of different identifying genders may take issue with it (or may not). It's micro, it's small you are in the very small minority despite it being a vocal one and yet you are suggesting we start outlawing words because of that.

Like I said above.

Intent is very relevant.
There's thousands of words that can be deemed offensive by any number of people.
Individuals have a responsibility to look past smaller issues like this.

Click to shrink...

Because you expect People to Change the way they speak for decades just because there is a (probably small) Chance, someone might be offended by a word they are using in a harmless way. Thats why.

Click to shrink...

I am suggesting you make one tiny, tiny concession to make some people feel more included. And these people do exist on this forum, as this thread shows.

It would take you the tiniest effort, and it would mean so much to them.

But you would rather fight it.

 

[Trice]

I'm not American but 'boys' seems too gendered to be used for a group of men and women. 'Guys' sounds like the most appropriate, alongside 'people'.

 

[Wackamole]

I can understand. However, it's probably meant as "persons" and that sounds weird.
But we could use "people" or 'members".

What are the suggestions here?

 

[Jedeye Sniv]

Because you expect People to Change the way they speak for decades just because there is a (probably small) Chance, someone might be offended by a word they are using in a harmless way. Thats why.

Click to shrink...

It's 2019, get with the program fellow human. This is what we do now.

 

[astro]

I can understand. However, it's probably meant as "persons" and that sounds weird.
But we could use "people" or 'members".

What are the suggestions here?

Click to shrink...

Folk
Y'all
Everyone
All
Mates
People
Peeps
Friends
Pals
Etc...

 

[rochellepaws]

If I don't hear a female voice when I'm playing online I will use the term "boys" or "guys". It's not meant in a confrontational way.

Click to shrink...

Personally I think this is a huge problem in the games community where you're viewed as male by default unless willing to declare otherwise. You realise how intimidating it can be for a woman to speak in a game full of men who all have the same of attitude of presuming they're among only men?

 

[Wackamole]

Folk
Y'all
Everyone
All
Mates
People
Peeps
Friends
Pals
Etc...

Click to shrink...

Yeah, that's all fine. Thanx.

 

[Resilient]

Well, yes, i do that...

Click to shrink...

Do you think purposely cutting out part of my post and replying to one part of it in this manner makes you smart? Lol 🤭🤭

 

[Stalker]

I am suggesting you make one tiny, tiny concession to make some people feel more included. And these people do exist on this forum, as this thread shows.

It would take you the tiniest effort, and it would mean so much to them.

But you would rather fight it.

Click to shrink...

To be clear here I'm not really for the usage of boys it's not really in my lexicon outside of ironically. I just understand the reasoning behind it.

My larger point is policing of words that have unharmful intentions on a scale this minor is pointless and exhausting and as an individual it's better to get perspective above the issue you have than just outlawing shit left and right because you're offended.

 

[Fatoy]

Folk
Y'all
Everyone
All
Mates
People
Peeps
Friends
Pals
Etc...

Click to shrink...

Literally the only time I've heard anyone call a collective of men "boys" is when they're either aping military movie dialogue to try and be funny, or they're impersonating a "lad" stereotype that's probably quite outdated nowadays - for the same reason.

Anecdotal, I know, but I don't think either scenario implies ill-intent or is purposefully exclusionary.

And by the same token, I can come up with anecdotal reasons why most of the above aren't as useful as replacements as they might seem. Mates is very rarely used by women in the UK, and it stems from seafaring terms that were exclusively male. Pal is considered derisive in the UK - you'd only stick it on the end of a sentence if you were purposefully trying to aggravate someone. Peeps and y'all feel very odd coming out of the mouth of anyone above a certain age. I'm 36, and saying "peeps" would be so unnatural in my day-to-day environment that people would find it bizarre.

And as people have already said above, folks means family or parents in a lot of the UK. "Are we visiting your folks?" It's not a useful replacement for a general group of people, although I actually do use it in emails to mixed-gender groups.

Anyway, the point remains that words you consider acceptable are not acceptable to others. Surely it's not a huge stretch to see the parallels between these and your own example?

 

[WhiteNovember]

I am suggesting you make one tiny, tiny concession to make some people feel more included. And these people do exist on this forum, as this thread shows.

It would take you the tiniest effort, and it would mean so much to them.

But you would rather fight it.

Click to shrink...

uff.. yeah. Thats absolutely it. I am not even using the Terms you criticise (or the german equivalents). Again: Changing the way you speak is not that easy. It is not the tiny effort you suggest it is.

It's 2019, get with the program fellow human. This is what we do now.

Click to shrink...

Sorry. Just read I decided to fight it. By not aggreing with everything, I am now the Transphobic Asshole everyone fears.

 

[astro]

To be clear here I'm not really for the usage of boys it's not really in my lexicon outside of ironically. I just understand the reasoning behind it.

My larger point is policing of words that have unharmful intentions on a scale this minor is pointless and exhausting and as an individual it's better to get perspective above the issue you have than just stand outlawing shit left and right because you're offended.

Click to shrink...

It's not policing of words. It's not outlawing shit.

It's asking people to consider their words to make people who are often excluded feel included.

uff.. yeah. Thats absolutely it. I am not even using the Terms you criticise (or the german equivalents). Again: Changing the way you speak is not that easy. It is not the tiny effort you suggest it is.


Sorry. Just read I decided to fight it. By not aggreing with everything, I am now the Transphobic Asshole everyone fears.

Click to shrink...

It's easy to say you will make the effort and actually try to make that effort, yes.

No one is suggesting it's easy to unlearn it all right away.

You are fighting the idea right now, with your words, instead of just saying "sure, I'll try to be a bit more inclusive for these people", you're trying to make it seem like people are trying to demand something unfair from you. This is not an unfair request, in any way.

If you just don't want to do it, be honest. No one can force you.

 

[Zhukov]

Haha.

Am I being exclusive when I address a group of 100% guys with "ladies"?

What about "lads"?

"Lads and lasses"?

 

[Resilient]

But thats not the argument here.

Guys is a gendered term as normalised as boys is. One is fine for the OP one isn't. It's picking and choosing what to be offended about. OP is fine with normalised "guys" but not normalised "boys"

I wouldn't use girls you're correct because it's not normalised.

But part of it being normalised to apply to any group means that the ones who use it see it as addressing a "group" and not just a "group of men" and honestly if the intention is to be inclusive then choosing to be excluded by that is on the individual. Of course the world can change every term that people deem to be exclusive because of the way the decided to feel that day but it's micro policing. People are required to have some self restraint and to look at something that offends them and move on and the world has always existed like that because if we adapt to everything that anyone anywhere can deem offensive for very minor reasons in the grand scheme then whats left is a sanitized barely expressive culture. Word policing is always dumb because you can always find a word that's offensive to you.

You know what also isn't amazing but happens. People expressing beliefs about a topic and then getting quoted with "not this shit again" and other equally dismissive terms. Should I start a thread about not using dismissive terms in replies because they offend me?

Click to shrink...

Guys has been normalised for decades. I have always been talking about "boys". Which is not normalised. It's in the process of become "normal" for boys through YouTube/streamer culture and it shouldn't be. Because it excludes girls. Just because guys was normalised, doesn't mean boys should be. If people are already expressing their concerns for that being the case - those people being girls who don't like being called boys - why should anybody handwave it as faux outrage? Why is it so hard to accept that maybe it shouldn't be normalised? Is it any skin off your back? Who are we hurting by including more people?

You can rattle off as many people as you like that are cool with it. The fact is, there are people that aren't. Why do they not matter to you? This is what I have been asking for 3 posts now, and you've been side stepping it harder than Messi. Reckon you can explain why without bringing about faux outrage again?

 

[astro]

Literally the only time I've heard anyone call a collective of men "boys" is when they're either aping military movie dialogue to try and be funny, or they're impersonating a "lad" stereotype that's probably quite outdated nowadays - for the same reason.

Anecdotal, I know, but I don't think either scenario implies ill-intent or is purposefully exclusionary.

And by the same token, I can come up with anecdotal reasons why most of the above aren't as useful as replacements as they might seem. Mates is very rarely used by women in the UK, and it stems from seafaring terms that were exclusively male. Pal is considered derisive in the UK - you'd only stick it on the end of a sentence if you were purposefully trying to aggravate someone. Peeps and y'all feel very odd coming out of the mouth of anyone above a certain age. I'm 36, and saying "peeps" would be so unnatural in my day-to-day environment that people would find it bizarre.

And as people have already said above, folks means family or parents in a lot of the UK. "Are we visiting your folks?" It's not a useful replacement for a general group of people, although I actually do use it in emails to mixed-gender groups.

Anyway, the point remains that words you consider acceptable are not acceptable to others. Surely it's not a huge stretch to see the parallels between these and your own example?

Click to shrink...

All this effort to defend the use of "boys" to refer to men, women, and non-binary folk?

Most of those other examples are much better. Mates means both genders, much more than guys does. Pals is used by so many people I know in an endearing way, UK here, so you're wrong about in my experience. I won't go through the rest of your examples, but these are all better than "boys" to refer to women and non-binary people by quite a long way.

 

[Stalker]

It's not policing of words. It's not outlawing shit.

It's asking people to consider their words to make people who are often excluded feel included.

Click to shrink...

And by being considerate you mean not use those words effectively outlawing them. Changing others cadence of speech to match your own personal accepted standard. Even if those ways suchs as "folks" or "mates" exclude people. Mates excludes lots of british females. "folks" in the UK is virtually exclusive to parents. Imagine hearing that term if you are trying to have children and can't and it's weighing heavy on your mind and then someone adresses you the same way you typical address your parents that could be offensive.

However I expect those in that circumstance understand that the term is inclusive and not intended to offend... just like when people say "boys"

 

[Nuclear Muffin]

While "guys" technically refers to people who are male; its typically considered acceptable when you are addressing a group of people who are mixed in terms of sex as a generally sex agnostic term.

It's also probably the most formal way of addressing a mixed group, outside of the term "people". Anything outside of "guys" or "people" is generally pretty informal and jokey and so, not always appropriate. I mean, you might want to address a group of people as "peeps" or "mates", but sometimes that isn't appropriate, so "guys" it is.

Tis just a limitation of the current English language. It's not really something worth getting hung up over though, as people don't tend to strictly adhere to the technical definition of English language words anyway and social acceptability always takes precedence over technicality. "Guys" is considered socially acceptable, "boys" is not; unless done as a joke.

 

[Fatoy]

All this effort to defend the use of "boys" to refer to men, women, and non-binary folk?

Click to shrink...

No. Like I said, I don't use it, and I only ever hear it used ironically.

The effort was directed towards encouraging you to see the contradictions in what you're asking of other people. "Don't use this word, because it makes people feel excluded. Use these instead." "Here's why some of those aren't serviceable replacements, for the same precise reason you object to 'boys'." "Why are you defending the use of boys?"

I understand how people can get so invested in a specific scenario that they don't see the more generic principles behind it and parallels between it and other situations, because there's passion involved. But like it or not, those general concepts and parallels exist, and I don't consider it a waste of time to point them out.

 

[Cyn]

Folk
Y'all
Everyone
All
Mates
People
Peeps
Friends
Pals
Etc...

Click to shrink...

But "guys" is already by it's very dictionary definition referring to a group of people regardless of sex or gender.

There is a strict difference between the words "guy" and "guys". I know you've stated that you personally don't mind "guys" so much because it's ingrained. But it isn't ingrained. It is the very definition of the word. How an individual interprets this, well that's of course up to them. But it's not up to everyone else to change the meaning of the word to suit an individual preference or by them not understanding the difference in word definition.

I'm not having a go or trying to sound mean, I completely agree "boys" is not really appropriate. And of course I accept that language is fluid and evolves rapidly over time. But the very definition of the word "guys" is already inclusive and non-specific of sex/gender.

 

[astro]

And by being considerate you mean not use those words effectively outlawing them. Changing others cadence of speech to match your own personal accepted standard. Even if those ways suchs as "folks" or "mates" exclude people. Mates excludes lots of british females. "folks" in the UK is virtually exclusive to parents. Imagine hearing that term if you are trying to have children and can't and it's weighing heavy on your mind and then someone adresses you the same way you typical address your parents that could be offensive.

However I expect those in that circumstance understand that the term is inclusive and not intended to offend... just like when people say "boys"

Click to shrink...

I mean not using the word "boy" that means "male" to refer to men, women, and non-binary/gender fluid folk.

That's not asking for it to be outlawed.

PS - Mate is a non-gendered word in the UK. Folk is often used by many people I know in the UK to mean "all".

 

[CheapJi]

I dont use bois when i call people online but i have called them guys regardless of their gender. Ofcourse i dont mean to ofend them its just smt im used to say. I believe if they dont mean to offend other people it shouldnt really be taken seriously. Like ive seen people online refer to other people with "fuckers" or "mofos" which are technically far worse than this but they say it and nobody really gets offended.(these things in my culture are considered the worse things you can tell someone and honsetly it gets really weird alot of the times but we just laugh it off at the end.)also one reason could be that alot of girls dont use the chat (especially voice chat) feature so they just assume they are boys(?).

 

[Razor Mom]

If you just don't want to do it, be honest. No one can force you.

Click to shrink...

I haven't really figured out where exactly I stand on this particular issue, but I feel like people in this thread have been honest about not wanting to do it for various reasons. Them explaining their reasoning isn't dishonesty.

 

[Stalker]

You can rattle off as many people as you like that are cool with it. The fact is, there are people that aren't. Why do they not matter to you?

Click to shrink...

They matter very little to me because.

1. I don't personally know them.
2. Anyone can be offended by anything and on a personal level you have to find your balance of how offensive you want to be.
3. It's incredibly minor in the grand scheme
4. Opinions of unknown others are for the majority of existence pointless to me.

I can't give a shit and emphasis with everyone over everything it's not humanly possible. You could not get out of bed in a morning if you did. Imagine giving a shit about every single starving or abused child or animal or adult or insects you step on or the countless past atrocities of humanity and the infinite number of dead life in the universe. It's not possible you and I and everyone else make a judgement on how much we give a shit about something. Yours and mine are just different buddy.

 

[FallenGrace]

I'm definitely guilty of using "guys" as a gender-neutral catchall even when it's technically gendered.

Click to shrink...

I do the same thing vocally though not in text. It's a habit I've gotten into. It just rolls off the tongue easier than everyone. I have been conscious of it though and am trying to stop doing it though I don't think anyone at my work or social group even notice but I'm concerned I'll offend someone at some point.

 

[Razmos]

"Boys" is such a weird term to use, I would never use it in any context. "Guys" however is fairly standard, as covered in the OP.

Anyone getting offended that someone has asked you to be a little more inclusive need to literally fuck off. It's not bard

 

[Hilarious_Bearious]

I always thought the thread titles and OPs with stuff like "here we go boys" seemed a bit off to me, but wasn't sure if it was my place to say anything about it as a cisgender male. Seems super dismissive of, and disrespectful to, the women and intersex members of our community. I never even considered people with gender dysphoria or who might appear male but otherwise don't identify as cisgender male. I could understand people using "guys" due to its common mixed gender usage, but "boys" is a definitely masculine term and using it to address mixed company seems like a jerk move.

Anyway, I try to avoid gendered pronouns when addressing groups in my personal life or at work. My personal favourites I use to refer to groups (deadly serious):

• Gangsters
• Players
• Homies
• Kids
• Chums
• Chumps
• Peep
• Folks
• Taters (as in "later 'taters")

There are plenty of fun, ungendered words we can use to acknowledge groups. Let's not act like "guys" and "boys" are exquisite rare words we cannot replace. And if somebody politely told me they didn't like being called by one of the group words I use, I'd make a solid effort to avoid using it.

 

[Ikaruga]

I am not very versed in the online slang of young people nowadays(yeah I'm getting old lol) but when I adress a crowd be it online or in real life I always use the term boys and girls, it's been that way for me forever now, cause I never found it adequate addressing a crowd just as boys - unless there are really only boys in my group but then it's likely a much smaller crowd. I think men would think twice about generalizing everyone with the term boys if everyone would say "let's go girls" to them.

It's just more polite, in Austria/Germany it's also custom to write letters starting with adressing women and men before the actual letter starts, if you aren't adressing an individual directly. Only adressing men or women alone would be considered very rude actually.

 

[astro]

They matter very little to me because.

1. I don't personally know them.
2. Anyone can be offended by anything and on a personal level you have to find your balance of how offensive you want to be.
3. It's incredibly minor in the grand scheme
4. Opinions of unknown others are for the majority of existence pointless to me.

I can't give a shit and emphasis with everyone over everything it's not humanly possible. You could not get out of bed in a morning if you did. Imagine giving a shit about every single starving or abused child or animal or adult or insects you step on or the countless past atrocities of humanity and the infinite number of dead life in the universe. It's not possible you and I and everyone else make a judgement on how much we give a shit about something. Yours and mine are just different buddy.

Click to shrink...

You do you mate.

I always thought the thread titles and OPs with stuff like "here we go boys" seemed a bit off to me, but wasn't sure if it was my place to say anything about it as a cisgender male. Seems super dismissive of, and disrespectful to, the women and intersex members of our community. I never even considered people with gender dysphoria or who might appear male but otherwise don't identify as cisgender male. I could understand people using "guys" due to its common mixed gender usage, but "boys" is a definitely masculine term and using it to address mixed company seems like a jerk move.

Anyway, I try to avoid gendered pronouns when addressing groups in my personal life or at work. My personal favourites I use to refer to groups (deadly serious):

• Gangsters
• Players
• Homies
• Kids
• Chums
• Chumps
• Peep
• Folks
• Taters (as in "later 'taters")

There are plenty of fun, ungendered words we can use to acknowledge groups. Let's not act like "guys" and "boys" are exquisite rare words we cannot replace. And if somebody politely told me they didn't like being called by one of the group words I use, I'd make a solid effort to avoid using it.

Click to shrink...

Thank you for being considerate. It means a lot. :)

 

[Stalker]

I mean not using the word "boy" that means "male" to refer to men, women, and non-binary/gender fluid folk.

That's not asking for it to be outlawed.

PS - Mate is a non-gendered word in the UK. Folk is often used by many people I know in the UK to mean "all".

Click to shrink...

And to some it's not, My GF would never use the word mate. No one I personally know uses folks outside of the stated parentage circumstance. Again you are choosing your hill to die on and ignoring the bigger picture because you actively care about this issue and not others that can also offend. Is it so hard to comprehend here that people don't share you reasoning, sensibilities and opinions and they also don't care enough to change their cadence of speech because of a handful of expressed opinions.

There's nothing derogatory about it's usage, it's just offensive to some people because of their own association with the word and not taking into account the intent of the usage.

 

[Jedeye Sniv]

I think one of the biggest linguistic struggles around NB people is the lack of single syllable words to describe them that roll off the tongue. I think it would be easier to integrate them if there were good new words that could refer to them (as opposed to the weirdly cold "they/them" in singular, or Non-Binary People which is a six syllable mouthful).

In this case, it's gender neutral group words that are causing the friction when there are really many. Guys works well because it ends in an S and doesn't have a hard consonant at the end, and as OP has stated, it's kind of OK to use still.

I think we underestimate how much of an impact language makes on all these concepts being accepted more broadly.

 

[astro]

And to some it's not, My GF would never use the word mate. No one I personally know uses folks outside of the stated parentage circumstance. Again you are choosing your hill to die on and ignoring the bigger picture because you actively care about this issue and not others that can also offend. Is it so hard to comprehend here that people don't share you reasoning, sensibilities and opinions and they also don't care enough to change their cadence of speech because of a handful of expressed opinions.

There's nothing derogatory about it's usage, it's just offensive to some people because of their own association with the word and not taking into account the intent of the usage.

Click to shrink...

Not going to bicker about those words.

The fact is "boy" means "male".

Boy is not a good word to use to speak to a group of people like Era who include women and non-binary/gender fluid people. In a male dominated environment that is struggling for equality in terms of gender identities, using more male dominated words is taking it backwards.

I have no idea why you want to fight for that word, and I don't think anything I could say could convince you to stop.

As I said, you do you.

 

[Fatoy]

PS - Mate is a non-gendered word in the UK. Folk is often used by many people I know in the UK to mean "all".

Click to shrink...

Again, you're doing exactly what you're accusing other people of doing: implying a word is fine to use because you know people for whom it's not exclusionary. And again, there's a very clear and logical through-line from one to the other that should at the very least give you pause when making blanket statements.

By way of example: I once called my sister-in-law "mate" and she got defensive about it, so I never did it again. On the other hand, I know other women who like being called mate or dude, so I guess I could use those terms with them. Neither body of evidence is useful for making broad-brush determinations about whether a particular word is generically offensive or not.