OP
OP
Mate is non gendered in the UK, look it up.
Boys means male.
This is not hard.
-
Ever wanted an RSS feed of all your favorite gaming news sites? Go check out our new Gaming Headlines feed! Read more about it here.
Using "boys" to speak to everyone really needs to stop, and this is why.
- Thread starter astro
- Start date
Mate is non gendered in the UK, look it up.
Boys means male.
This is not hard.
I live in the north of England but work with a bunch of southern people, to them everyone is "Mate" regardless of gender.
And just to underline that, here's you at the top of this page.
My sister-in-law doesn't like to be called mate. So for her it's exclusive. Doesn't matter if it's non-gendered or not; her experience must be valid if anyone else's is. You obviously have female or non-binary friends who like being called mate, so, you know, "great for them". But it'd be one small change on your part not to offend my sister-in-law and find another word, so why won't you do it?
The answer is very obvious: because offense isn't universal, and because different words mean different things to different people.
Again, I don't use "boys" and I'd never use it to refer to a mixed-gender collective because it is, as you said, an explicitly gendered word. But there's a leap from my personal opinion (and yours) to universality, and for me it's a matter of correctness as much as anything else.
OP
OP
No, because mate is non-gendered and boys is.
Not everyone will like every word, that's fine, they can let you know.
This is about simply not assigning gender to people where you don't have to, and not using the dominant gender to refer to people who are less included.
This is kind of the issue. Mate absolutely is gendered to a lot of people, certainly where I grew up. Even Google refers to it as :
"used as a friendly form of address between men or boys.
"'See you then, mate.'"
synonyms:man, my friend; "
Even removing gender from the equation, everyone has a vastly different life experience that could make some seemingly benign terms have emotional value to them, or a different meaning from their small corner of the world, or anything. If it's not as easy as deciding what is hurtful to you, and using that as a template for others to follow (which is what you're doing in this case, but also what people that disagree with you are doing) then it has to become an exercise in trying to understand the potential impact of supposedly harmless words on people who find them offensive. There are suggestions for alternatives here that would insult some people, even mate like you've suggested. The question is ultimately how far is any individual willing to go to accommodate all of these potential situations, whilst also understanding they will never humanly avoid all of them.
OP
OP
If guys is not gendered, mate is not gendered.
If dude is not gendered, mate is not gendered.
How far are you taking this?
Boys IS gendered. 100%.
Mate, guys, dudes.... all better than Boys.
I don't use the word outside of irony.
The fact is you're purposefully ignoring the larger topic and focusing on your own self issue here.
Folks can be offensive
Mates can be offensive
Guys can be offensive
To specific individuals anything can be offensive, you don't seem to give a shit about anything else or the larger topic that you have created just your personal opinions and that's fine you do you but don't start moaning because others don't share that belief.
As an aside
As I said previously dismissive posting of contrasting opinions is blatantly an attempt to offend and that's all over this thread because Era has this culture that descend from the rafters to mock and bully people of different opinions because they put themselves as bastions of progressiveness. That's not a good thing to do either but it happens and nothing gets done about it.
Also if anyone has issues or is offended by any posts I've made my intent has not been to antagonise but attempt actual discussion. I apologise if I've offended inadvertently
But Guys is gendered in the UK and so is Mates, again you personal opinions don't speak for everyone stop acting like they do.
Guys even has the opposit terms "Gals" in the US. It's a gendered term.
"Mate, guys, dudes.... all better than Boys." <- to you, not to others. My GF would be offended by guy or mate so lets stop that shit to eh?
No qualms about that either. I was more referring to instances where you know everyone is a guy (probably by knowing the people you're playing with)
As I said, completely unintentional mistakes do happen especially for a term like 'guys'which is so ingrained, but it's an easy change to make if someone alerts you to the fact.
I live in the UK and can confirm mate is just neutral (unless there is a gendered history I'm unaware of?)
I would also like to take this opportunity to suggest my personal favorite way to address a collective;
Listen up sports fans
EDIT: just realised this is in gaming side - does this not need to be moved?
I would also like to take this opportunity to suggest my personal favorite way to address a collective;
Listen up sports fans
EDIT: just realised this is in gaming side - does this not need to be moved?
Last edited:
OP
OP
Simple fact:
Boys is 100% gendered. So don't use it to refer to all genders.
That's it.
I gave it up a while ago, have been weeding out "you guys," too. I prefer "y'all" anyway
I can be slow picking up on shit, as I've been conditioned not to pick up on shit. One I notice I try to adjust
I can be slow picking up on shit, as I've been conditioned not to pick up on shit. One I notice I try to adjust
OP
OP
To you. These findings apply to you. In the same way some people feel boys isn't gendered, or mate, or guys etc. These rules apply to you. Somebody with comparable life experiences to you, who grew up where I did, where "mate" has inherently male implications, would feel differently to you and could well be offended by its use just like you are by "boys".
Honest, serious question: What do you feel about ladies and gentlemen? Because I often used it when I play with my friends.
This is absolutely it.
Guys may not gendered to some people, but it is to others. I'd use it generically, but someone who grew up in the 50s being segmented into guys and dolls/gals might not. Dude is also generic to me, but it's not to others.
I don't think anybody is, in good conscience, saying it's great to call mixed gender groups "boys". I'm certainly not. But what I think people are trying to do (and what I'm certainly trying to do) is encourage you to look at how trying to force a universal opinion in an area as complex and varied as language is not necessarily a good idea.
OP
OP
This thread is about the word boys.
Which is 100% gendered.
So don't use it to refer to groups where all genders are present.
Well, that wouldn't cover me. If it covers your friends it's perfectly fine, you're covering everyone present, that's the goal.
Earlier, you were talking about impact versus intent. What makes the impact on gender fluid individuals more important than the impact on individuals who take offense to certain words? Shouldn't we be cognizant of impact of all words on all peoples?
Oh then I wasn't careful enough during reading. I agree with your opinion, though I think it should be a minor annoyance (and something that should definitely change sooner or later).
But this isn't policing words people can use, nah?
What if a group you're with isn't offended by its usage? Doesn't the intent of the word change alongside who you're using it with?
I'm not particularly keen on trying to limit or dismiss people's language use...
OP
OP
Simple fact:
Intent is important and the term boys is used inclusively,
The problem is yours and not others.
That's it.
^ See we can all use dismissive nonsense to reply but it's meaningless and your opinion isn't everyones and you stance here is becoming more and more that only your opinion is one we should give a shit about.
You can't use the rules you've come to, which may make perfect sense to you, and apply them to everyone. "Mate" is 100% gendered to other people, and neither boys nor mate has any gender to other people. You saying that boys is "100% gendered" may be the truth to you, but it's not the truth to everyone. It's not about disregarding other people's feelings, or people would assume you're being purposefully disrespectful by using the term "mate" to refer to people who aren't male, and I don't think you're trying to be disrespectful when you do that.
You didn't answer the question. What makes impact on non-gendered individuals more important? If we are advocating for impact based analysis, shouldn't we consider everyone's feelings?
Shipmate being exclusively male, Large portions of the UK's women will not be comfortable being called Mate. My GF and her friend group actively have discussed how much they didn't like it in the past.
OP
OP
That's not how it works.
Boys means men.
Many non-men don't mind being called men you say? Cool.
Many do because it excludes them.
So let's just not refer to all genders as men?
Cool.
OP
OP
I am getting there. If you answer my question you will see why I'm asking.
Do you think guys is non-gendered?
This logic can be applied to words you use, by people who see words differently than you do. I've already mentioned how "mate" is inherently male in certain parts of the world, and therefore to certain people, but it doesn't really seem like you're interested in discussing that.
I think you should be careful with the word "lady". It implies a standard or degree of femininity and behaviour that a woman must comply with in order to be acceptable or high status. Sure, the vast majority of people using it mean nothing by it, and I'm sure most people hearing it don't care, but the word is certainly loaded.
If you're saying ironically or to muck around with friends, it's probably OK I guess?
That's actually not the etymological root of the word mate, I don't think, but it's a good example because it is how the word has its most contemporaneous historical usage, which is where it gets a lot of its context from.
Maybe it's a Northern UK thing (I'm from Manchester) but this is the precise reason my sister-in-law gave for not wanting to be called "mate". Is she objectively, academically "wrong"? Yes. Are her feelings valid anyway? Yes, to the same extent as anyone's subjective feelings are, which is why objectivity doesn't work in these situations.
dude, WTF? nobody is asking or bringing up anything in that last paragraph of yours.
i find it really interesting you would go to these lengths to justify it VS acknowledging that it's a minor correction people could make that would positively impact others.
My personal opinions do not matter? I am simply asking you to apply your analysis equally to all individuals. If you are asking individuals to consider the impact of their words on gender fluid individuals, why shouldn't we also ask you, or anyone else for that matter, to consider their own words and their impact on individuals? What makes gender fluid people more important than the feelings of other people?
Grew up in North Yorkshire here, where mate is absolutely male. And yeah I basically agree with what you're saying.
No offense OP but you acting so dismissive and above it all when someone raises similar concerns about the "safer" alternatives you provide isn't really doing you any favours.
It is, but it also has broader applications and implications that you're wilfully ignoring because they don't fall within your particular sphere of experience. I'm totally happy not to use boys to apply to mixed-gender groups because I never used it that way anyway, but this is not a conversation you can have in a vacuum.
In fact this isn't even a conversation; this is part of a conversation.
I don't know about y'all but I personally use
- Y'all
- Peeps
- People
- Everyone
- Everybody
- Erryone
- Errybody
- Scumbags
In both text and voice comms and get by with no problem.
- Y'all
- Peeps
- People
- Everyone
- Everybody
- Erryone
- Errybody
- Scumbags
In both text and voice comms and get by with no problem.
I think that for us CIS people we honestly don't think about our gender very often.
Being male is a fact about me. But I am almost never thinking about it. Or what my maleness means.
Which is probably an issue, and why these things creep up. This is male privilege. Part of my privilege is not having to really think about being male.
If as I was playing Apex, someone said, I "where we dropping ladies?" i would probably chuckle but that's about it.
But I can see why, for people who gender is something they think about every day, regardless if they want to, this would be annoying. If I were someone who was constantly misgendered. If I were someone who had to fight for people to call me my name I want to be called...i can totally see why I would care a lot about this topic.
I say guys a lot. And it is a hard habit to stop. But I think that anyone who considers themselves someone who respects all people you should probably try to do that.
Being male is a fact about me. But I am almost never thinking about it. Or what my maleness means.
Which is probably an issue, and why these things creep up. This is male privilege. Part of my privilege is not having to really think about being male.
If as I was playing Apex, someone said, I "where we dropping ladies?" i would probably chuckle but that's about it.
But I can see why, for people who gender is something they think about every day, regardless if they want to, this would be annoying. If I were someone who was constantly misgendered. If I were someone who had to fight for people to call me my name I want to be called...i can totally see why I would care a lot about this topic.
I say guys a lot. And it is a hard habit to stop. But I think that anyone who considers themselves someone who respects all people you should probably try to do that.
Why does it matter what they think? If some people consider it gendered and others don't. Or are you arbitrarly going to start decided who is wrong and right based on his answer and shy away from the actual discussion in favour or lording your own opinion above others as the "Fact"?
You're not actually interested in this topic as much as you are in being right and others being wrong. Anyone who sides with you gets a lovely little "thank you for being considerate post" yet you refuse to be considerate about others opinions and world views and localised experiences
You asked why I didn't care about specific opinions of specific people. I used the example to show how minor and small such a tiny problem is and to state that it's not actually possible to give a shit about everything and we all draw our line in the sand somewhere and yours and mine are just at different locations. However some people and maybe I incorrectly identified you as such and for that I apologise act like they don't draw a line and are infinitely empathetic and it's bullshit because we all pick and choose what we give a shit about.
As evidence here.
That's not really the discussion
We are talking about how as a term it's used inclusively and aside from gender and that OP only gives a shit about their opinion and no one elses and holds it as the only truth and actively deflects others opinions on the subject.
Guys is 100% gendered. You can't ignore a word's origin just because it has become colloquially used to refer to a mixed group.
Actually had no idea. Having said that, I probably wouldn't use it when talking to women outside my friend group (who use it themselves), so I guess there is no reason I would have been aware of any offense. Noted for the future though.
This works both ways. Mate has a non-gendered origin but has very gendered implications in parts of the world and to many people. A lot of these words are a matter of background and personal perspectives.
Hmm well sometimes I used it with strangers too. I thought it was polite, if maybe a bit posh, but maybe you're right.
You're completely missing the point. People have taken great pains to explain why you cannot be objective about something that has such a broad spectrum of subjectivity, and your response is "cool, let's roll out another blanket rule then!".
OP
OP
So let's drop mates.
Let's also drop boys.
"Hey everyone"
"Hey pals"
"Hey people"
"Hey all"
OP
OP
No I'm not.
This thread is literally about the word BOYS, which means male.
In a male dominant environment, where we struggle for gender equality, another 100% male dominant word that literally MEANS male is a step backwards.
This is the point of the thread.