This seems like a strawman argument. Who is calling for a ban on harmless words? That's not what this thread is about.
-
Ever wanted an RSS feed of all your favorite gaming news sites? Go check out our new Gaming Headlines feed! Read more about it here.
Using "boys" to speak to everyone really needs to stop, and this is why.
- Thread starter astro
- Start date
This seems like a strawman argument. Who is calling for a ban on harmless words? That's not what this thread is about.
Well, if that is what you understood, I may have to Train my english skills. I thought it was clear, that I talk about this specific and/or similar cases.
You're talking about the specific case of using the word 'boys' to address an anonymous group, right? That's not harmless speech in a society where gender inequality is still a problem. It's problematic because the anonymity of a group defaulting to male is part of the problem with gender inequality (only the male gender is relevant enough to be used as a catch-all, not the other way around; it's not a coincidence that 'girls' and 'ladies' don't serve the same function in such situations).
Most importantly, if the group is anonymous, there is no reason to address them by gender (let alone a single one); it's not even logical. Addressing by gender only makes sense if a gender is something everyone has in common, so if that's not something you could ascertain, there really is no reason you'd need to use it as a form of address to a group of people in the first place.
Ok this is a bit much. There are no current or historical trends of the term "boys" being used in a problematic way. To claim otherwise is to minimise the impact and the harm that legitimately offensive words have caused to people. Someone earlier in the thread tried to compare it to the n-word and that's just way overboard. It's something that has had a specific and harmless meaning for a long time and recently seems to be co-opted by a niche group of people for the kind of usage that the OP wants to nip in the bud. The OP is well within their rights to express their desire to request this, do i think they are going about it in the right way? Frankly, no. I'd say the response in here has been mostly supportive barring the odd few trolls with some people saying they're going to change the way they speak and most people stating they don't speak like that anyway cause it's kind of incongruous. But this is a forum with what i would mostly consider a modern viewpoint who are open to new ideas and can facilitate this kind of discussion. Now you try and tell people with legitimately awful and bigoted opinions or viewpoints to change the way they speak and imagine the kind of pushback you would get, if anything it would have the opposite effect. I mean, christ, if racism is still such a huge endemic part of our society then i don't see gender equality happening anytime soon, i genuinely believe that as well intentioned as these kind of things are they can do more harm than good.
The current use of the term is rooted in the sexism of a patriarchal society that prioritizes the male perspective over everyone else's perspective. I'm saying it's a symptom of the problem and continues to perpetuate the problem. I'm not saying the word alone is the problem itself. Just because there are more egregious examples of problematic language (which in itself is something that exists in varying degrees) doesn't not mean we shouldn't try to address the issue.
More importantly, we minorities (myself being black and queer) can walk and chew gum at the same time. There are a lot of marginalized people in our society, so instead of trying to play the Oppression Olympics to determine which issues we should address over other, we need to listen to each other and help each other.
I'm not trying to get rid of the word 'boys', but I believe that I'm absolutely justified in saying that it has no place in addressing a group of people of mixed gender/non-gender. The reason it has been widely used for so long is because 'boys' were the only ones who mattered, and that kind of thinking has to come to an end.
I remember in school, boys would be like, "Nah, man!" "Come on, man!" And, girls would be like, "I ain't no man, boy!" Always cracked me up.
If I'm calling upon a group of mixed sexes or an unknown group of random people, I say, "boys and girls," "guys and gals," or "ladies and gentlemen." It's usually in a joking way, though. In honest conversation, it's "folks" or "people" or "y'all."
If I'm calling upon a group of mixed sexes or an unknown group of random people, I say, "boys and girls," "guys and gals," or "ladies and gentlemen." It's usually in a joking way, though. In honest conversation, it's "folks" or "people" or "y'all."
Or, call it a hot take if you want, it is mostly used by persons that have other "Boys" (almost) exclusive as social contacts.
Setting aside the fact that we have a ton of history to look to and see just how dominant the male perspective has become in society, not being in contact with many women is not an excuse to misgender women or non-binary people.
If you're speaking to an anonymous group of people, you should know better than to talk to them as if you were only talking to your 'exclusive social contacts'.
In my country, we have 3 different words for 2 persons (depending if it is 2 guys, 2 girls or a guy and a girl).
Nobody ever makes a mistake by using the incorrect one, except when there 2 guys and they are called by a word used for a guy and a girl. This happens pretty often.
Some people get really annoyed if that happens. I must admit that it bothers me, but that is 'cos I am a grammar nazi.
I bet a lot of people think they are a talking to a group of men only whenever I am in some sort of matchmaking and there is communication.
That assumption that everyone in gaming (or here) is a guy is extremely strong. Sure, non binary people or women could speak up but speaking up all the time can be exhausting. Not to mention that often leads to a good amount of sexism or intolerance.
But the resistance to a very slight change in language to make a marginalized group of people feel better is about what I came to expect on a gaming forum.
I had no idea about African American dialects that use "y'all" - as I said, I think I've heard it in cowboy movies (not even sure - I just know about it). I would never use anything pejorative to describe someone's dialect - but that doesn't mean I will use that dialect. Also, I don't think slang in itself is something bad - just that I think I have a choice whether I'll use it or not. So, I can't explain why I feel awkward using that word, but I do. When I say "y'all" I feel like.... like I'm intentionally trying to sound "cool" or something. Like.... if I started using "comrade" instead of "buddy". And with my slavic accent, I would certainly feel like a joke going around and telling people "comrade". Also, fyi, comrade is also gender neutral, so perhaps you should try using it for a while, because it's a proper English word. If that's ok with you, comrade Brainchild :)
There are a lot of phrases and contractions I perfectly understand and know from movies, shows, comics or books, but don't want to use because they feel strange. I never gave it much thought, but now that we're talking I am realizing it. Perhaps some of them are tied to, say, African Americans, perhaps some of them are tied to southerners, perhaps some of them are tied to a certain city or region in the US. I have no reason not to use them other that I think they sound strange when I (emphasis on "I" - not others) use them. I think the best explanation is "I don't think I can pull them off".
On a side note - I have to add: I am not a native English speaker and I have to say that some people are very insensitive to foreign speakers. I can't possibly know every context or connotation for certain words and the nuances of certain phrases. If a person says "please don't use a certain pronoun when addressing me" or "don't use that phrase, please" - of course I will do my best to honor their wishes. I have no intention of hurting anyone. But if something feels strange, please take into a consideration that I'm already using someone else's language that is completely different to my own, and respect my wishes as well. TLDR: Not using 'y'all'. And, of course, not using hurtful words and disrespecting anyone intentionally.
Also: I support making a small change in the way one talks in order to make a marginalized group of people feel better. It's the least one can do. If "y'all" was the only way to do it - I would, of course. But it's not.
Last edited:
That's perfectly understandable. You're certainly not obligated to use the word "y'all". I just found your objections to it a bit suspect, but now that you've clarified your perspective a bit more, I can certainly understand why you wouldn't want to use it and you're well within your right to not use it. We just kindly ask that you (or anyone) don't say 'boys' when addressing a group of people of different genders/non-gender.
As a non-english speaker I use "guys" because it feels most natural after growing up with american movies/sit-coms where they say "come on guys/gang" very often. "y'all" feels like something of an southern accent thing. "Folks/people" is a better alternative. Is there other words for a group of people?
Of course. I don't use 'boys' in the situations you mention - or anything similar - and certainly won't use it in the future.
Here's a good post on gender-inclusive forms of address:
https://crystalhuff.com/2017/02/16/gender-inclusive-forms-of-address/
What are you talking about? The current use of the term is almost exclusively used to simply describe the plural of boy. This newer usage of the word as described by the OP is so niche and obscure that many people (myself included) had never even heard of it being used in that context before. I'm not trying to deny the obvious male patriarchal dominance in western society but if you're saying that the way that most people commonly use the term "boys" is perpetuating the patriarchy and a symptom of it than i would vehemently disagree with that. Most people aren't out there desperately trying to offend or exclude people and those that are, well they are gonna use much more efficient words to get the job done. I'd also argue that most people who even use that term to collectively refer to a group of people aren't doing it out of malice, they're probably just saying something in a way they've heard their friends say it. Which is how language evolves, the irony is of course that if this catches on and becomes so widespread as to lead to an official change in the definition of "boys" then good luck trying to get people to stop saying it at that point.
Sidenote, anyone ever have that thing where they use or see a word so often that it suddenly loses all meaning? I think i've hit that stage and it's probably a good thing cause i feel like this is making me insane.
This is not about the general use of the term 'boys', it is about the specific use of the word 'boys' as a form of address to people of differing genders/non-gender. It is merely an example of how using gendered language in many cases continues to be problematic and it isn't even close to being a new problem. See here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender-neutral_language
It doesn't matter what the intentions are, misgendering people because you're too lazy to be more thoughtful about how you address people is not acceptable. Men have been doing this for hundreds and thousands of years; 'boys' as a catch-all is just a modern extension of that. You can try to trivialize it all you want, but the problem is not going to go away, and I can guarantee you that you're going to be on the wrong side of history for defending this type of privileged attitude about carelessly talking to people.
If you're fine using guys but not boys then that's pretty hypocritical and makes it hard to take your stance on the word boys seriously. I personally use guys all the time and never thought about it. But guys and boys are pretty much the same thing
If what you took away from my comments is that i am defending those who purposefully misgender non-binary/gender fluid people then you have some reading comprehension issues. I'm no longer interested in continuing a discussion if you're just going to throw that out there knowing literally nothing about me. I'm a gay man with trans friends who's stories i have listened to, have never deadnamed or misgendered and treated just the same as all the people in my life who's company i value. If i'm that shitty a person on the "wrong side of history" as you claim i wonder why they keep coming round my house when i invite them to hang out? Oh wait, it's cause you're full of shit.
I think the OP said like 50 times now that they don't like guys either but they see it as a lost battle.
If you personally think boys and guys are the same then it's not exactly a gotcha. It just means you using guys is as wrong as boys because you'd see both as gendered.
I usually just use "fam" "ya'll" "people" team" or "everyone"
"Aight, lets do this fam!" etc.
But plenty of females I know use "guys" even among a purely female entourage lol. It's so ingrained in our culture.
Well the one I replied to they said it was fine with them even though they know others don't like it. So yep seems hypocritical to me which is why I replied to that. And guys and boys is exactly the same. They both refer to males. The definition of a word really isn't up for debate. I don't get how you can be fine with guys and not boys when it literally means the same thing.
Your intentions are quite literally irrelevant to the fact that 'boys' is gendered term. If you address a group of people of mixed gender/non-gender as 'boys', then you have indeed misgendered some people in that group by definition, whether you did it on purpose or not. It's not just an issue with addressing people on a personal level but on general level as well. Linguistically, 'boys' is not equivalent to 'peeps', 'folk', 'all', etc. but it's addressing the audience as if the audience universally male, so when that audience is comprised of people with genders besides male, you're calling some of those people a gender that they're not. Hiding being your intentions or using transgender tokenism as a means to deflect criticism of using language that is harmful to marginalized groups is not gonna fly here.
I understand what you mean, i don't really feel its nice to assume that everybody who plays are male. There is a difference between seeing 3 guys on twitch saying "Lets go boysssssss!" meanwhile they are on their adrenaline rush and a random person speaking out with in-game voice. Usually when i play games i always just try to be personal with everyone but also taking a distance towars peoples gender. I'd probably say "Lets roll, lets go team" or something like that.
OP
OP
If you'd read the thread an the threadmarks you'd know this.
I am not okay with the word, I'm "fine" with it in that I'm resigned to defeat as it's already ingreaind. There's no unlearning it.
"Boys" literally means "male", in a male dominant society that is trying to become more aware of gender identities and strive for equality, more 100% male dominate language is not the answer.
Guys and boys are NOT the same thing currently, and they shouldn't become the same.
How is it not the same thing? The literal definition for guy is a man.
Here's another option I didn't consider that I like, though I still regard assbutts as the ideal form of mixed-gender address
Not the case for 'guys' though.
https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/us/definition/english/guy
The plural form of 'guys' has evolved to mean a form of address for any gender. That's not the case for 'boys'.
GUY VS BOY Elaboration
OP
OP
Guys doesn't mean men any more according to dictionaries and popular opinion, it's evolved beyond its initial meaning.
And this is the problem, male centric words becoming ubiquitous.
Boy and Girl, Man and Woman, these are the literally words for the binary genders. Guy was a synonym for Man, so "Guys" evolving to mean "all" is not the same as the default word for a male adolescent (Boy) evolving to mean Girls, women, non-binary, etc... This is literally a default word for man overwriting other genders, in a soceity where Male is the default very often, this is worrying.
This is hugely symptomatic of the male dominance in society, when the default word for male adolescent starts to get used for everyone. Guys was already bad in that it helps dismiss gender identity, but boys is too much.
And we can prevent boys, we can't do anything about guys. Not for now at least.
Who knows how this will change once gender identity becomes more equal.
Yup.
And I want to thank you for this thread. We have a lot of work to do to help people understand why the male-centric view of the world is problematic and threads like these help us get that across.
OP
OP
You're welcome, and thank you to for your participation.
I've had a bunch of people me to tell me the thread has helped them gain some insight here, and posters like yourself have helped make that happen.
this community can be so awesome.