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Nzyme32

Member
Oct 28, 2017
5,245
This wasn't made to help indie developers, this was made to convince gigantic companies to keep releasing their games on steam, and also try to convince companies that never released their F2P games on steam due to the cut profit they would have.

Indie Devs still get the industry standard for every other platform. If the companies want pure profit, they can still release their games with their own website of publisher. It's not like Valve is stopping them from doing that. You go to Valve because they have a gigantic playerbase, and a server infrastructure that cuts down on the costs of development.

A lot of the posts here haven't even bothered to read the post Valve released. For those people in summary:
The value of a large network like Steam has many benefits that are contributed to and shared by all the participants. Finding the right balance to reflect those contributions is a tricky but important factor in a well-functioning network. It's always been apparent that successful games and their large audiences have a material impact on those network effects so making sure Steam recognizes and continues to be an attractive platform for those games is an important goal for all participants in the network.
.....
Our hope is this change will reward the positive network effects generated by developers of big games, further aligning their interests with Steam and the community.

This is purely in recognition of the big successful games on Steam - Indie and AAA, but obviously much more relating to AAA. These are the games driving Steam's success and in turn exposure to everything else on the store. It is designed to retain those successful devs / pubs. Valve actively encourage devs / pubs to publish elsewhere but always in addition to Steam.
 

Durante

Dark Souls Man
Member
Oct 24, 2017
5,074
Valve doesn't charge for ad space - it never has, and as per all previous discussion at dev days, they never will.
Valve also doesn't have any royalty fees for retail / digital games and takes a 0% cut of retail and third party store games sales.
None of these are things the console vendors do

In consideration of all the things they do and provide developers consistently year over year, their 30% cut is justified.
As per Valve's post, there is now stronger recognition and lower cut for those big successful games, driving significant new user growth to Steam and user engagement, in turn driving discovery and sales of all manner of other games (including Indies)

This is a default lower cut than any of the console vendors by a significant margin.
But if you put it like that then how will I justify being pissed off at Valve for lowering their fees in some cases (significantly so), and keeping them the same as the rest of the industry in others?
 

neon_dream

Member
Dec 18, 2017
3,644
Ooh, I heard about those, but I thought they collect that hardware stuff automatically. First time seeing it. I'm surprised people participate in them.

Surprised why? All it does is tell valve what sort of processor, video card, ram, and OS you're using. It's not scouring your hard drive for all your secrets. The info helps Valve and developers understand what hardware to target in development.

I've had the survey 5 or 6 times in the past 10 years, IIRC.
 

Unkindled

Member
Nov 27, 2018
3,247

Lackless

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,137
Valve: "Bethesda and Rockstar, ignore Bnet and Epic. They're stupid-heads. Stay here......please?"
 
Oct 25, 2017
11,953
Houston
capsule_616x353.jpg

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Valve is exception to all rules, can never get off the list
 

Unkindled

Member
Nov 27, 2018
3,247
Was just about to post this. Would love to see Valve just reduce their ludicrous cut, especially given that they could and likely do charge for feature spots on the storefront.

Markup that high makes sense in brick and mortar stores, but in a digital storefront it seems excessive.

You do know that every other digital store charges 30% right? and most of them don't even half of the features Steam has. If it seems excessive to you then you shouldn't be singling out Valve for it.
 

Nzyme32

Member
Oct 28, 2017
5,245
But if you put it like that then how will I justify being pissed off at Valve for lowering their fees in some cases (significantly so), and keeping them the same as the rest of the industry in others?

Just wait till next year. This is only going to become even more ridiculous. Tribalism in gaming is both absurd and hilarious
 

BernardoOne

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,289
Was just about to post this. Would love to see Valve just reduce their ludicrous cut, especially given that they could and likely do charge for feature spots on the storefront.

Markup that high makes sense in brick and mortar stores, but in a digital storefront it seems excessive.
you can't buy feature spots on the storefront.
 

neon_dream

Member
Dec 18, 2017
3,644
Was just about to post this. Would love to see Valve just reduce their ludicrous cut, especially given that they could and likely do charge for feature spots on the storefront.

Markup that high makes sense in brick and mortar stores, but in a digital storefront it seems excessive.

Ludicrous = completely standard for any digital store; actually just simply better than anyone else, especially given licensing fees on console platforms

Also now we're just making up imaginary things Valve does(nt do).
 

Lashley

<<Tag Here>>
Member
Oct 25, 2017
59,987
On the sabbath, Valve are said to kill 7 cats within a 3 mile radius of their headquarters.

Just add it to the list of evil things they do. Vermin.
 

Raider34

Banned
May 8, 2018
1,277
United States
Valve been seen the writing on the wall for a while they tried to make their own OS and hardware didn't fair to well. Now many publishers are out right leaving and making their own clients which hurts us steam users because we like having our games in one place. Soon there will be another client who comes and gives indies a better deal and more exposure it will be mainly dedicated to indies and that will be the end of what most of us love about valve and steam
 

Lashley

<<Tag Here>>
Member
Oct 25, 2017
59,987
Valve been seen the writing on the wall for a while they tried to make their own OS and hardware didn't fair to well. Now many publishers are out right leaving and making their own clients which hurts us steam users because we like having our games in one place. Soon there will be another client who comes and gives indies a better deal and more exposure it will be mainly dedicated to indies and that will be the end of what most of us love about valve and steam
Like itch.io?
 

Deleted member 1849

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,986
Valve been seen the writing on the wall for a while they tried to make their own OS and hardware didn't fair to well. Now many publishers are out right leaving and making their own clients which hurts us steam users because we like having our games in one place. Soon there will be another client who comes and gives indies a better deal and more exposure it will be mainly dedicated to indies and that will be the end of what most of us love about valve and steam
That's basically what Itch has tried. They don't charge for submissions, give devs a neat little applet to put on their own website, and allow developers to decide what Itch.io takes from their sales all the way to 0% if a dev asks for it. They offer a much better deal for small indie devs than literally anyone else.

They also offer amazing support. The "A Good Snowman is Hard To Build" dev sent them a request for a price changing API he could code a program which would automatically change the price depending on how cold it is. Itch devs got back to him and implemented the feature for him. That would be utterly unheard of literally anywhere else.

The problem is that it's almost impossible to get noticed on Itch, which is basically an instant death sentence for many.
 

TyraZaurus

Member
Nov 6, 2017
4,457
Valve's "30 percent cut" comes without any meaningful support on dev or community matters or them investing in indie developers to attract them to their platform like the case is with the console developers. They don't put back in anything to justify the percentage they take, they just take it because they're the only game in town and because not releasing through them is suicide.
 

Lashley

<<Tag Here>>
Member
Oct 25, 2017
59,987
Valve's "30 percent cut" comes without any meaningful support on dev or community matters or them investing in indie developers to attract them to their platform like the case is with the console developers. They don't put back in anything to justify the percentage they take, they just take it because they're the only game in town and because not releasing through them is suicide.
Unequivocally false.
 

TyraZaurus

Member
Nov 6, 2017
4,457
Unequivocally false.

https://www.polygon.com/2018/10/19/17959138/steam-valve-developer-support-pricing-reviews

They offer no support when it comes to negative reviews, actually managing their community, they leave too much to automation, "regional pricing" hurts the developers, and they allow the constant influx of asset flips and shovelware to fill up the marketplace and obscure smaller titles.

No, they don't do anything to justify the cut they take. To get promoted on Steam, you have to literally already be a success.
 

Deleted member 1849

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,986
Valve's "30 percent cut" comes without any meaningful support on dev or community matters or them investing in indie developers to attract them to their platform like the case is with the console developers. They don't put back in anything to justify the percentage they take, they just take it because they're the only game in town and because not releasing through them is suicide.
They do provide dev support. Where this has come from suddenly I don't really know.

This thread has also repeated all the other things they do to earn their share over and over again, but of course you didn't read them did you.


Oh nevermind. It was this fucking garbage article featuring comments from a bunch of no-name morons who don't even understand basic economics enough to know why local purchasing power is important and why regional pricing exists.
 

Kurt Russell

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
1,504
I wonder how well would all the people telling outright lies about Valve fare if they were talking about a different platform holder (say, Microsoft, Sony, Nintendo). Oh, I forgot, Steam is not a platform, carry on with all the misinformation!

https://www.polygon.com/2018/10/19/17959138/steam-valve-developer-support-pricing-reviews

They offer no support when it comes to negative reviews, actually managing their community, they leave too much to automation, "regional pricing" hurts the developers, and they allow the constant influx of asset flips and shovelware to fill up the marketplace and obscure smaller titles.

No, they don't do anything to justify the cut they take. To get promoted on Steam, you have to literally already be a success.

The same article that says regional pricing equals discount and basically tells devs that letting people from poorer regions pay a price that makes sense is wrong. Amazing source you got there!
 

Lashley

<<Tag Here>>
Member
Oct 25, 2017
59,987
https://www.polygon.com/2018/10/19/17959138/steam-valve-developer-support-pricing-reviews

They offer no support when it comes to negative reviews, actually managing their community, they leave too much to automation, "regional pricing" hurts the developers, and they allow the constant influx of asset flips and shovelware to fill up the marketplace and obscure smaller titles.

No, they don't do anything to justify the cut they take. To get promoted on Steam, you have to literally already be a success.
Ah yes, the polygon article that was universally panned for being false.

It's like the guy telling us earlier consoles make a loss.
 

Sabin

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,623
Valve's "30 percent cut" comes without any meaningful support on dev or community matters or them investing in indie developers to attract them to their platform like the case is with the console developers. They don't put back in anything to justify the percentage they take, they just take it because they're the only game in town and because not releasing through them is suicide.

giphy.gif


I can't stand these post anymore. Every god damn thread about Valve or Steam it's the same dumb shit.
 

TyraZaurus

Member
Nov 6, 2017
4,457
Ah yes, the polygon article that was universally panned for being false.

It's like the guy telling us earlier consoles make a loss.

Where was it exposed as false? Did any devs come out decrying it?

If there's actual evidence of it then I'll gladly change my tune. But we have multiple people who were literally Valve employees decrying their coorporate culture and their policies; are they all lies too?
 

Deleted member 1759

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,582
Europe
https://www.polygon.com/2018/10/19/17959138/steam-valve-developer-support-pricing-reviews

They offer no support when it comes to negative reviews, actually managing their community, they leave too much to automation, "regional pricing" hurts the developers, and they allow the constant influx of asset flips and shovelware to fill up the marketplace and obscure smaller titles.

No, they don't do anything to justify the cut they take. To get promoted on Steam, you have to literally already be a success.
Oh boy, that article again

lmao
 

Deleted member 300

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,669
Valve's "30 percent cut" comes without any meaningful support on dev or community matters or them investing in indie developers to attract them to their platform like the case is with the console developers. They don't put back in anything to justify the percentage they take, they just take it because they're the only game in town and because not releasing through them is suicide.

So all the steam api backend of full third party controller support even up to dualshock 4 isn't helping devs.

Every game having its own community hub for forums, guides and screenshots etc.

A mod workshop for games that support modding that anyone could upload there mod too and anyone could click a button and have that mod installed without any extra work of moving files etc.

Friends lists and game installs aren't regional blocked like some applications (cough battleshit.net)

A multiplayer framework that helps stop cheaters and if they get vac banned could stop being able to play online.

I can do this all night
 

Doskoi Panda

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
14,961
Valve's "30 percent cut" comes without any meaningful support on dev or community matters or them investing in indie developers to attract them to their platform like the case is with the console developers. They don't put back in anything to justify the percentage they take, they just take it because they're the only game in town and because not releasing through them is suicide.
Astounding ignorance.

ITS ALLOWED HERE THO, since this isn't a thread about an important platform (just Steam, that PC thing) so have at it
 

TyraZaurus

Member
Nov 6, 2017
4,457
If you can tell me what was actually wrong with that article and post some sources that debunk it from people who aren't forum posters, I'd appreciate it. I'm open to learning.
 

Saucycarpdog

Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,349
Console manufacturers take not only 30% for games directly sold through their online storefronts like valve, they also take a cut for retail copies, something valve isn't doing with retail copies / steamkeys
Console manufactures also make profits via paywalling online services, something valve isn't doing.
Console manufactures also make profits through hardware and periphery sales, something valve is doing, but at a vastly smaller scale.

But of course platform warrior will ignore these kinda things when screeching.
Don't forget the money they charge for devkits.
 

TyraZaurus

Member
Nov 6, 2017
4,457
I'm trying to ask you all what in particular is incorrect about the article that informed my post. If I'm wrong, I'll gladly change my opinion. But I can't find anything on my own and you're all continuing to quote my post or posts spinning out from my post and talk around me for it instead.

I'm serious. If I made an ill judgement here and used it to make a post that was unfair and incorrect, I want to correct it.
 

Sabin

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,623
I'm trying to ask you all what in particular is incorrect about the article that informed my post. If I'm wrong, I'll gladly change my opinion. But I can't find anything on my own and you're all continuing to quote my post or posts spinning out from my post and talk around me for it instead.

I'm serious. If I made an ill judgement here and used it to make a post that was unfair and incorrect, I want to correct it.

Read the thread about the article.
 

Deleted member 300

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,669
I'm trying to ask you all what in particular is incorrect about the article that informed my post. If I'm wrong, I'll gladly change my opinion. But I can't find anything on my own and you're all continuing to quote my post or posts spinning out from my post and talk around me for it instead.

I'm serious. If I made an ill judgement here and used it to make a post that was unfair and incorrect, I want to correct it.

You could read my post ..
 

Hektor

Community Resettler
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
9,884
Deutschland
I'm trying to ask you all what in particular is incorrect about the article that informed my post. If I'm wrong, I'll gladly change my opinion. But I can't find anything on my own and you're all continuing to quote my post or posts spinning out from my post and talk around me for it instead.

I'm serious. If I made an ill judgement here and used it to make a post that was unfair and incorrect, I want to correct it.

Feel free to read through the thread we had on it:
https://www.resetera.com/threads/po...its-for-valve-minimum-responsibilities.75787/

Most egregious about this article are the non-jounralist who wrote it and one of the indiedev interviewed being mentally incapable of fathoming the purpose of regional pricing, painting it as some kind of oppression of dear leader valve.
 

TyraZaurus

Member
Nov 6, 2017
4,457
Read the thread about the article.

I had forgotten about that thread and all I'd read when I first saw it was stuff at the beginning, before any of the serious challenges to it had come up.

But I will, thank you.

You could read my post ..

I'm sorry I missed that. A lot of alerts for replies to that post came in and I let my anxiety get triggered and I lost it in the shuffle. I offer you my sincerest apologies, it was informative.
 

BernardoOne

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,289
https://www.polygon.com/2018/10/19/17959138/steam-valve-developer-support-pricing-reviews

They offer no support when it comes to negative reviews, actually managing their community, they leave too much to automation, "regional pricing" hurts the developers, and they allow the constant influx of asset flips and shovelware to fill up the marketplace and obscure smaller titles.

No, they don't do anything to justify the cut they take. To get promoted on Steam, you have to literally already be a success.
LMAO
every single time
 

Deleted member 1849

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,986
If you can tell me what was actually wrong with that article and post some sources that debunk it from people who aren't forum posters, I'd appreciate it. I'm open to learning.
I know you said no forum posters, but forum posters who are actual developers who have used the service for years and have also published on console are okay, right?

The stuff on regional pricing shouldn't need developers explaining it to you. It's an optional feature provided by Steam designed to use local buying power to actually make games affordable. Many publishers don't use it, and their games sell like shit in these regions as a result but that's their choice. $60 in the US isn't the same as the direct equivalent in the poor parts of eastern Europe. Framing it as a discount is just simply not how anything fucking works.

There are issues with the system, but most of this article reads like hyperbole and just lack of understanding on how the game publishing industry works. Valve offer a wonderful service and a great back-end for a decent cut, and are the only platform holder who allows you to easily produce your own product keys for example.

I do have grievances with the system and always have (I've been publishing games through the platform for almost 10 years now) but almost all of the points brought up ring hollow. Except the overcrowded marketplace.

I disagree with a lot of the anonymouse takes in the article, though I think some of their ideas about building in bug reporting systems and such would be very valuable. Also most of the takes in this thread are bad/reductive but anyone expecting nuance from folks who can only see the systems from the opaque outside would be making a grave mistake, there are so many moving parts when it comes to finding success on Steam and much of how everything works is completely invisible to the outside world. It's not as simple as making a good game or as simple as 'doing marketing', the universal constant though is that as a developer you need to generate a bit of snowball effect and then Steam will help carry you from there because it becomes in their interest to do so (They make money when you make money, they make more money long term when their users are happy, promoting games that find some success and make users happy is their goal).

As usual Morgan Jaffit is very logical and thoughtful in his comments. That guy is an Australian treasure.

And people pining for the good old days of steam are just those who see themselves on the winning side of its winners/losers model, I'm reasonably sure if my game (decent metacritic, overwhelming positive user reviews) had ended up on old Steam I'd be a millionaire but at the same time it might not have ever even made it to the platform. I don't know if Valve really earn their industry standard % but if you're comparing them purely with the other alternative storefronts and platforms they certainly don't come off lacking, so if folks really believe they don't deserve their % then it's probably the industry standard that really needs to change in this new world of open markets.

I will say that although getting a front page promotion is indeed extremely competitive and the kind of thing you're most likely only getting if you're successful already or have the backing of a major publisher, Valve does have staff that is willing to work with smaller developers to help promote their games. Like for example, with our latest game, we wanted to send out a bunch of discount coupons for our new game to people who already owned one of our games so I contacted their dev support team and someone got back to me quickly & set that up for us.
 

TyraZaurus

Member
Nov 6, 2017
4,457
I know you said no forum posters, but forum posters who are actual developers who have used the service for years and have also published on console are okay, right?

The stuff on regional pricing shouldn't need developers explaining it to you. It's an optional feature provided by Steam designed to use local buying power to actually make games affordable. $60 in the US isn't the same as $60 in the poor parts of eastern Europe.

Thank you. I will read over this. It seems pretty damning and I can already see where I was wrong.

But I just wanna say, I can't read every thread on a subject and this forum has too many posts for me to be aware of all of them. I come here like maybe four or three times a week to post. I see an interesting thread and I usually just read the first couple of comments. The actual article which is distributed wider is going to be more available to my recollection or review than a forum thread or some twitter comments.

I apologize for being misinformed and acting out ignorance but please understand that this comes from a position born from the unfortunate facts of how the internet spreads awareness of content. Polygon is a major website. The thread is one thread out of thousands on a forum.
 

Deleted member 300

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,669
I had forgotten about that thread and all I'd read when I first saw it was stuff at the beginning, before any of the serious challenges to it had come up.

But I will, thank you.



I'm sorry I missed that. A lot of alerts for replies to that post came in and I let my anxiety get triggered and I lost it in the shuffle. I offer you my sincerest apologies, it was informative.

Steam offers alot of things under the hood that by all aspects can just work or little to no trouble.. And for the end users if devs add the features its easier both ends. Stuff like the mod market place people forget about and how annoying stuff can be without it. Some other pc launchers hardly have controller support let alone things like dual shock 4.( this stuff is end users with literally tick boxes in steam settings)
 

Lashley

<<Tag Here>>
Member
Oct 25, 2017
59,987
Thank you. I will read over this. It seems pretty damning and I can already see where I was wrong.

But I just wanna say, I can't read every thread on a subject and this forum has too many posts for me to be aware of all of them. I come here like maybe four or three times a week to post. I see an interesting thread and I usually just read the first couple of comments. The actual article which is distributed wider is going to be more available to my recollection or review than a forum thread or some twitter comments.

I apologize for being misinformed and acting out ignorance but please understand that this comes from a position born from the unfortunate facts of how the internet spreads awareness of content. Polygon is a major website. The thread is one thread out of thousands on a forum.
It's not you, it's just we're sick of seeing the same tired rhetoric in every Valve thread, it makes it unbearable for PC players to actually read.

It'd be like every Playstation related thread going on about their online hack years ago, or MS and their shit Xbox One Launch etc