Valve leaks Steam game player counts

Oct 25, 2017
3,678
If we are talking about the first game, yes, there might be people who redeemed it from the bundle without downloading. However, any non-bundle game is unlikely to have been bought and forgotten. The payout for the bundle copies is less than $1 per bundle.

17k copies for the game is bad, regardless how you spin it. You should contrast Trails sequels with other JPRGs on Steam, then you will understand just how bad 17k copies is compared to the average of what "Tales of" or Hyperdimension.

Cold Steel 1 broke a million mark on PS4. PC is selling 3-4% of what PS4 did. You can use the mentality that 3%>0%, but XSEED would benefit much more if they focused on PS4, Switch and mobile.



Cold Steel 1 broke a million on PS4 ?
Wtf are you smoking. It opened at 10k units for its Japanese release.
Cold Steel 1 broke a million on PS3/Vita combined worldwide with more than 2 years of sales as a BRAND NEW title.
Cold Steel 1 on Steam is targeted at a a western audience, in which Trails is a niche serie. XSEED gets shit to focus on more-expensive-to-developp-for platforms where said titles makes 90% of their sales in Japan/Asia... In which Falcom self publish their games.
 
Oct 27, 2017
490
See my post above. I'm sure some of the old Skyrim's owners got it for free, but a lot of them didn't bother because of the poor mod support compared to Oldrim. If you got it for free, it doesn't mean all of those 4.4 million of people did. Actually, right now Skyrim SE is #6 in Top selling RPGs, above Fallout 4, so it's still selling very well.
So long as we don't have numbers, it's not fair to just say "I'm sure most didn't get it for free because modding" and end it there. Besides, Skyrim SE's initial mod support wasn't great, but most mods are getting ported and it allows for even better mods longer down the road.

Also, I'm sure the majority of Skyrim's owners didn't really look at the free version and go "You know what, I'm sure the mod support is not as good, so I'm going to pass on the opportunity to get something for nothing". I'm sure those Skyrim SE sales include those who got the game for free. And I'm sure those who got it for free far outweigh those who bought it, even though we don't have the numbers to prove either theory so I'm only assuming here. Those who didn't get the free Skyrim SE probably weren't paying attention for the free offer, or just didn't care anyways (not because of mod support).

And yes. OG Skyrim sold better than Fallout 4, hence why I talked about how it released 4 years earlier, and I'm confident Fallout 4 is not going to beat it, even though it'll close the gap. Heck if the majority of Skyrim SE's owners paid for it, then that just proves that Fallout 4 is closing the gap, and will continue to close the gap because it sold more, and you can no longer buy regular Skyrim, meaning more people are buying Fallout 4 than Skyrim within the past 2 years.

Basically, all I'm trying to say is that saying Fallout 4 won't even come close to Skyrim's popularity ain't accurate. We don't even have Console numbers here. For all we know, Fallout 4 completely dominated Skyrim's console numbers.

Edit: Sorry, just saw that you said Skyrim SE is currently selling more than Fallout 4. However, overall sales for Fallout 4 are higher than SE, so it might be a daily thing (or influenced by recent steam sales, not sure which game went for lower) Also, I think Fallout 4 and Fallout 4 GOTY count as separate sales, so even though Skyrim SE is selling more than either, I think Fallout 4 + Fallout 4 GOTY are selling more combined since they are both very close in ranking on the best seller list.

Edit2: Not related, but Skyrim SE is currently more expensive than Fallout 4 GOTY in my region. Is this the case for other regions?
 
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Apr 15, 2018
230
So long as we don't have numbers, it's not fair to just say "I'm sure most didn't get it for free" and end it there.

Also, I'm sure the majority of Skyrim's owners didn't really look at the free version and go "You know what, I'm sure the mod support is not as good, so I'm going to pass on the opportunity to get something for nothing".
.
Your statement has the same weight as my statement, because you have no proof that the majority of Skyrim's owners upgraded to SE. I'm sure a lot of them did, but it doesn't mean they're the majority of those 4.4 million people who got achievments in SE. AFAIK, old steamspy had a higher amount of owners of Skyrim SE -- 5-6 million-- and it seems likely that the difference is the old Skyrim owners who just downloaded Skyrim SE "for free" without earning a single achievement.

I mean, Skyrim SE is literally selling well. I don't know why you're talking like the majority of Skyrim SE's owners must be the old skyrim owners when right now Skyrim SE is outselling Fallout 4 on steam.

For Fallout 4 to catch up it must keep consistently outselling Skyrim by a lot, which doesn't seem likely, especially with the upcoming release of Fallout 76.

Edit: Yes, Skyrim is also more expensive in my region, for some reason. Weird.
 
Oct 27, 2017
490
Your statement has the same weight as my statement, because you have no proof that the majority of Skyrim's owners upgraded to SE. I'm sure a lot of them did, but it doesn't mean they're the majority of those 4.4 million people who got achievments in SE. AFAIK, old steamspy had a higher amount of owners of Skyrim SE -- 5-6 million-- and it seems likely that the difference is the old Skyrim owners who just download Skyrim SE "for free" without earning a single achievement.

I mean, Skyrim SE is literally selling well. I don't know why you're talking like the majority of Skyrim SE's owners must be the old skyrim owners when right now Skyrim SE is outselling Fallout 4 on steam.

For Fallout 4 to catch up it must consistently outselling Skyrim by a lot, which doesn't seem likely, especially with the upcoming release of Fallout 76.
Might be wrong on my part, but as I said in my edited post, Skyrim SE is selling more than Fallout 4 GOTY and Fallout 4 separately, but it's very likely that Fallout 4 + Fallout 4 GOTY are selling more combined than Skyrim SE. We don't have accurate weekly numbers but the ranking on the best selling list makes this likely, hence Fallout 4 is closing the gap if so.

Edit: I'm actually not sure if this is accurate, would love if someone can confirm or correct.
 

Ryna

Member
Oct 25, 2017
715
Canada
Cold Steel 1 broke a million on PS4 ?
Wtf are you smoking. It opened at 10k units for its Japanese release.
Cold Steel 1 broke a million on PS3/Vita combined worldwide with more than 2 years of sales as a BRAND NEW title.
Cold Steel 1 on Steam is targeted at a a western audience, in which Trails is a niche serie. XSEED gets shit to focus on more-expensive-to-developp-for platforms where said titles makes 90% of their sales in Japan/Asia... In which Falcom self publish their games.
Cold Steel sold 1.3m across all 3 titles. Cold Steel 1 probably only sold like 400-500k
 
Oct 27, 2017
5,857
Bear in mind that these numbers reflect player count, not owner count, and that some games have more of a difference between playership and ownership. Many Falcom game players have bought but set aside games like Zwei to focus on Trails or Ys first.
No, it is far more likely that they just sold like shit because people have never heard of them and/or they are way too expensive with shitty discounts. The "many Falcom game players" doesn't make any sense, since that is such a small group that the data more than likely won't be effected at all by that small group.

With the more well known games like Trails in the Sky 2 and 3, them selling like shit is far more reflective of most people not even making it out of the prologue of 1 and not caring to buy the others (that and they are way too expensive whose sales prices always suck).

Not to mention that before Steamspy died, the numbers were just as bad for Falcom sales, which includes not just players, but owners as well. People also have a lot more choices with JRPGs now, which is why some of the dropoffs for Falcom games are so bad.
 
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petran79

Banned
Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,025
Greece
Well if I understood it correctly it only accounts for people that own a game and started it once. So those numbers would naturally always be lower than the actual owners.
So at best it's an indicator of "this game has sold at least this much, but I guess there's no way to estimate how much lower than the actual owners this number is.

It's interesting data, but it's far from providing a comprehensive picture of a game's sales.
This would also require Steam client to be active. Some games can be launched straight from the game folder without Steam
 
Oct 29, 2017
3,431
Steam gaming is so weird. It almost smells musty. All these games remind of 1997 or something.

Team Fortress 2 (kill me of boredom, this game still exists edition)
Counter Strike (it's 2018 guys)

All these run on $200 laptops at max settings probably

so on.

Such old musty games.
Counter Strike and Team Fortress 2 remain the greatest multiplayer shooters ever, only rivaled by Quake and Battlefield 2. It makes sense that they're popular, although those latter two aren't as lucky.

Sad but true.
 
Nov 1, 2017
278
If we are talking about the first game, yes, there might be people who redeemed it from the bundle without downloading. However, any non-bundle game is unlikely to have been bought and forgotten. The payout for the bundle copies is less than $1 per
Wait, in what bundle was Cold Steel 1?

Anyways, people buying a non-bunled game and not playing it does happen. I've done it with some games, you purchase them because they're on sale and and you might want to play them soon and they won't be on sale then, but then life happens and they end up a bit forgotten.
 
Nov 3, 2017
2,546
Just remember, that people don't need to play these games to get achievements (Steam acievement manager) or get counted as having been played the game (idlemaster) Both count for this "method"
 
They really should make a bundle of the three Trails in the Sky games.
Absolutely. They mentioned major paperwork hurdles last time the subject really got brought up to them, so I hope this won't be as much of an issue if they push for it again.

Switching to bold within quote for the next one

No, it is far more likely that they just sold like shit because people have never heard of them and/or they are way too expensive with shitty discounts. The "many Falcom game players" doesn't make any sense, since that is such a small group that the data more than likely won't be effected at all by that small group.

So you're arguing that XSEED should cut into their bottom-line with super aggressive discounts on games that already don't experience major sales pressure? XSEED already has generous discounts for their Ys games and Trails in the Sky FC, and that's just from Falcom. It's the Trails sequels that will always suffer from the simple problem of players not finishing the starter games and/or finding time (and interest) to continue. So of course they get shallow discounts, since deep discounts are gonna hurt XSEED much more than shallow ones due to another, much less surmountable sales barrier. As for "never heard of them", these games are recommended everywhere across the Web to Japanese games fans nowadays.

The main problem is XSEED has a lot more competition now, so now they have to sell Falcom games as unique and exemplary in a sea of higher-budget titles. And they do a better job of this every year.


With the more well known games like Trails in the Sky 2 and 3, them selling like shit is far more reflective of most people not even making it out of the prologue of 1 and not caring to buy the others (that and they are way too expensive whose sales prices always suck).

People who really want to play the sequels, and who have already interacted with the online Trails community to some extent, know why the prices are that high.

Meanwhile XSEED's already done sensible things to make the games more accessible on PC, mainly Turbo mode in the Sky games which speeds up battles and exploration. Many new or returning players consider this the reason they've finally finished FC! I assume XSEED and competing companies will find ways to port the games to new markets at some point, but things like Turbo mode help XSEED avoid sales saturation with old but important prestige games like these.


Not to mention that before Steamspy died, the numbers were just as bad for Falcom sales, which includes not just players, but owners as well.
Ain't gonna let you finish because this is bullshit. SteamSpy had considerably higher owners estimates for Falcom games on Steam before the initial death. For example: Trails FC sits at almost 258k players according to these recent numbers, but the old owners number hovered around 300k. We've preserved some of these estimates via periodic SteamSpy threads in the past.

Judging by comments from Steam developers in this thread who question the accuracy of these numbers wrt actual sales, your assumption is flawed:

Checked our own game and the results were noticeably less accurate than the old SteamSpy prediction method.
Even back then, XSEED employees mentioned briefly that SteamSpy numbers lowballed how much the games actually sold, partly because of the private profiles caveat and partly because of GOG sales not factoring in. The divide between players and owners seems large enough to matter, even for really niche games like Xanadu Next.
 
Oct 27, 2017
863
Brazil
The article says they fixed the "leak", but I'm pretty sure you can still get the achievements information from their API, up to the 16th decimal, iirc. Am I missing something?
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,002
For games with free SE/EE like Skyrim or D:OS it may not count If the EEs haven’t been installed or started.

This is interesting data but it isn’t showing actual sales so there is a bit much “the sky is falling” in here.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,054
Steam gaming is so weird. It almost smells musty. All these games remind of 1997 or something.

Team Fortress 2 (kill me of boredom, this game still exists edition)
Counter Strike (it's 2018 guys)

All these run on $200 laptops at max settings probably

so on.

Such old musty games.
I mean tons of gamers fawn over way older basic ass NES games

It's almost like some games are timeless
 
Oct 26, 2017
2,791
Sure, but keep in mind that most of old skyrim owners didn't even bother to "upgrade" to Skyrim SE because of poor mod support (compared to OldRim). Not to mention that these are the numbers of people that actually played enough of Skyrim SE to earn achievements, not just redownloaded it.

Also, Skyrim SE sells very well to this day (at this moment it's #10 in RPG top sellers on Steam; for comparison: TW3 is #13 and Fallout 4 is #16), so some of those millions are surely new sales.
You get an achievement pretty much as soon as you leave Helgen. another caveat is that as soon as you use a mod, you don't get achievements (until you mod Achievements back in), so it's really tough to suss out Skyrim SE, Fallout 4, and their VR counterparts sales, though it should be a good indicator.

Another thing to note on Skyrim SE is that not all Skyrim owners got it, had to have both DLC's iirc.
 
Feb 25, 2018
404
SEGA:

Company of Heroes 2 - 4,654,955
Empire: Total War - 3,491,439
Total War: Rome II - 3,350,407
Napoleon: Total War - 2,178,916
Total War: WARHAMMER - 2,085,605
Endless Space - 1,549,005
Endless Legend - 1,516,227
SEGA Genesis Classics - 1,514,485
Total War: Attila - 1,331,963
Sonic & All-Stars Racing Transformed - 1,232,451
Aliens vs Predator - 1,231,126
Dungeon of the Endless - 1,080,885
Total War: WARHAMMER II - 955,731
Valkyria Chronicles - 767,675
Endless Space 2 - 750,761
WARHAMMER 40k: Dawn of War III - 680,572
Sonic Generations - 647,871
Jet Set Radio - 533,153
Aliens: Colonial Marines - 456,851
Bayonetta - 424,901
Sonic Adventure 2 - 416,375
Hell Yeah: Wrath of the Dead Rabbit - 415,904
Motorsport Manager - 330,158
Binary Domain - 306,463
Viking: Battle for Asgard - 300,593
Renegade Ops - 297,463
Sonic Adventure DX - 291,205 (Also available outside of Steam)
The Typing of the Dead: Overkill - 244,364
Sonic CD - 241,011
Total War Saga: Thrones of Britannia - 224,856
Sonic Mania - 168,633
Crazy Taxi - 148,830
Sonic the Hedgehog 4: Episode I - 144,813
Vanquish - 143,289
Castle of Illusion: Starring Mickey Mouse Remake - 123,527
Sonic the Hedgehog 4: Episode II - 83,454
Sonic Lost World - 72,200
NiGHTS into Dreams - 63,403
SEGA Bass Fishing - 58,500
Space Channel 5 Part 2 - 51,418
Puyo Puyo Tetris - 47,388
Sonic Forces - 34,165
Tembo the Badass Elephant - 30,643
Rez Infinite - 24,921 (Not published by SEGA on PC)
Superdimension Neptune vs SEGA Hard Girls - 24,628 (Not a SEGA game technically)


Not listed: Alpha Protocol, Rome: Total War, Total War: Shogun 2, Alien Isolation, Medieval: Total War games, Condemned: Criminal Origins, Eastside Hockey Manager, The Club, all Football Manager games (many are on the list, I just did not want to put them here), Relic's pre-SEGA games.

Some of these seem quite low, but I imagine the only ports they are actively disappointed with the sales of are Sonic Lost World and Sonic Forces. 3D platformers in general seem to do quite poorly on Steam though for some reason. NiGHTS and Rez being so low bums me out, though.

I have high hopes for Yakuza 0 and Valkyria Chronicles 4 on PC. Not sure where to expect Shenmue or Shining Resonance Refrain to land.
I'm guessing that with in a year Yakuza 0 will do over 300k+, VC4 I can see also doing about 300k+ or so, Shenmue will likely be closer to 200k, and Shining may only see 100k+
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,047
The article says they fixed the "leak", but I'm pretty sure you can still get the achievements information from their API, up to the 16th decimal, iirc. Am I missing something?
Yes.

You might see something like this:

65.0999984741210938

which appears to have more than one decimal.
But it still has precision of one decimal.

It simply error from floating point representation.

You can try it here

You get an achievement pretty much as soon as you leave Helgen. another caveat is that as soon as you use a mod, you don't get achievements (until you mod Achievements back in), so it's really tough to suss out Skyrim SE, Fallout 4, and their VR counterparts sales, though it should be a good indicator.

Another thing to note on Skyrim SE is that not all Skyrim owners got it, had to have both DLC's iirc.
There is no need to earn achievement to be counted. Simply having playtime is enough.
 
Oct 26, 2017
2,216
New Jersey
I'm guessing that with in a year Yakuza 0 will do over 300k+, VC4 I can see also doing about 300k+ or so, Shenmue will likely be closer to 200k, and Shining may only see 100k+
These are some real bullish estimates. Shining hitting a 100k would take a miracle. I doubt Shenmue goes anywhere near 200k either without big price cuts.
 
Oct 26, 2017
2,791
There is no need to earn achievement to be counted. Simply having playtime is enough.
See, I'm not too sure about this, H3VR (Hot Dogs, Horseshoes and Handgrenades) has an achievement, it's a "secret" one, which apparently very few have achieved, it's counted as having 9766 sold, but it's on the "platinum level" in the Top sellers so far this year for VR:
https://store.steampowered.com/sale/2018_so_far_top_vr_titles/

The other games on that list are around 100k each.

Could be it's only incorrect for that game though I suppose.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,047
See, I'm not too sure about this, H3VR (Hot Dogs, Horseshoes and Handgrenades) has an achievement, it's a "secret" one, which apparently very few have achieved, it's counted as having 9766 sold, but it's on the "platinum level" in the Top sellers so far this year for VR:
https://store.steampowered.com/sale/2018_so_far_top_vr_titles/

The other games on that list are around 100k each.

Could be it's only incorrect for that game though I suppose.
Could be mistake on that list?

https://barter.vg/i/20360/a/ has it at ~500k using same method.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,584
Steam gaming is so weird. It almost smells musty. All these games remind of 1997 or something.

Team Fortress 2 (kill me of boredom, this game still exists edition)
Counter Strike (it's 2018 guys)

All these run on $200 laptops at max settings probably

so on.

Such old musty games.
Today I finished the first Call of Duty (released in 2003) for the first time. The beauty of PC gaming is being able to play whatever you want whenever you feel like it, no matter how old.
 
Oct 25, 2017
7,210
Pillars 2 doing that bad is sad but not unexpected given that its peak concurrent number was like half or less than what Pillars 1 did.

Also the game kind of sucks and feels like they ran out of money midway through the game so that's not doing it any favors either.

I wonder why. Isn't the game arguable better than the first one? Is it the setting? Did people not like the original? Bit weird.
In some ways but worse in others. The companions in 2 have so little to say compared to 1 and they seemed to stop commenting on new developments or having anything new to say at all about halfway through the game. The pen and paper style ship combat was pretty awful too but once you get strong enough you can just rush forward and board ships for an easy win. I also didn't really like how the story ended, the whole last part of the game felt a bit rushed and ended abruptly.
 
Oct 25, 2017
624
Pillars 2 doing that bad is sad but not unexpected given that its peak concurrent number was like half or less than what Pillars 1 did.

Also the game kind of sucks and feels like they ran out of money midway through the game so that's not doing it any favors either.
It is also a direct sequel and it is not uncommon for them to do worse than the previous game.


In some ways but worse in others. The companions in 2 have so little to say compared to 1 and they seemed to stop commenting on new developments or having anything new to say at all about halfway through the game. The pen and paper style ship combat was pretty awful too but once you get strong enough you can just rush forward and board ships for an easy win. I also didn't really like how the story ended, the whole last part of the game felt a bit rushed and ended abruptly.
I found the companions to be about on par with the first game. In the first game some of them were chatty Kathy's, Durance for example, but many of them didn't feel noticeably more robust in than the ones in Deadfire.
 
Oct 26, 2017
2,791
Could be mistake on that list?

https://barter.vg/i/20360/a/ has it at ~500k using same method.
That on the other hand seems way too high. The biggest VR title on the list (that costs money) is Job Simulator, and that was bundled with the Vive for a long time, and it's at 200k, both in the CSV and the barter.vg site, so H3VR selling 500k would be, whilst amazing, pretty headscratching too. I'm just going to chalk it down to H3VR's weird handling of achievements.
 
Oct 26, 2017
1,456
Damn. Less than 800 copies for ch 6? I know its niche and came out fairly recently, but still....
I don't think it's that surprising given it's the 6th episode of a niche game. It would be interesting to compare it to the original Higurashi's release by MG.

The lack of recent anime + the episodic structure really hurt R07's stuff.

In some ways but worse in others. The companions in 2 have so little to say compared to 1 and they seemed to stop commenting on new developments or having anything new to say at all about halfway through the game. The pen and paper style ship combat was pretty awful too but once you get strong enough you can just rush forward and board ships for an easy win. I also didn't really like how the story ended, the whole last part of the game felt a bit rushed and ended abruptly.
Companions' personal quests are worse, but the companions themselves are waaay more reactive than PoE1's companions, some of them even leave if they disagree with your choices.

Main story is indeed awful, but I don't think it's rushed and the game isn't lacking in content.
 
Oct 25, 2017
7,210
I found the companions to be about on par with the first game. In the first game some of them were chatty Kathy's, Durance for example, but many of them didn't feel noticeably more robust in than the ones in Deadfire.
Yeah avellone's two characters were very talkative and explored different themes as is common with him. It was great and I missed it in 2.

2's character quests were also very half baked in most cases and ended very abruptly. It really feels like they had to cut corners due to money running out.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,664
China
I mean why should I buy Higurashi 6 now, when its still 2 episodes from being done. I mean Umineko was released with the question arc and answer arc seperately and its done...

I can just wait till Higurashi is finished and then maybe get the missing chapters in another Humble Bundle or buy the Steambundle and get the remaining chapters far cheaper than right now.
 
Oct 25, 2017
624
Yeah avellone's two characters were very talkative and explored different themes as is common with him. It was great and I missed it in 2.

2's character quests were also very half baked in most cases and ended very abruptly. It really feels like they had to cut corners due to money running out.
I will agree with that. I was not impressed with most of the companions quests in Deadfire. I don't know if it was a lack of money or what, but Deafire as a whole felt like Obsidian played it way too conservative to the detriment of the final product. I hope the game Cain and Boyarsky are working on doesn't follow the pattern and is more like their Troika days.
 
Feb 25, 2018
404
Edit: In regards to Cold Steel, I am really puzzled by lack of popularity. Setting, JRPG genre, large cast of characters that should appeal to Steam audience, good story, etc... are all good. And the port itself is great. Why is this not selling? It is just weird to me.
I feel like a lot of it has to do with the series itself, I remember that Falcom said that each of the Ys games sell typically over 100k each in the west, which is pretty bad when you think about how other JRPGs that have been around as long as Ys has will easily do over 1 million in the US alone (this mainly applies to Final Fantasy) and 100k is a rather standard number for JRPGs on Steam that are not Falcom games.

I wonder if this suggests some factoring errors. Like Jurassic World Evolution sold 4x that. Can’t be Platinum when Silver sold that much, unless the criteria are very capricious.

Frostpunk is cheaper and has no DLC, but FFXV is as expensive. The lines between tiers would have to be extremely narrow.
From the looks of it, Jurassic World Evo has done over $10 million sales on Steam in one month, wow that is impressive. using that info I guess that if your games makes over $10 million USD that it is part of the Plat club. In case you are wondering where I am getting my numbers from, the game at it's cheapest could average to about $30 USD, and seeing how there is 450k+ people that makes $13.5 million, and if then after the 30% cut, you are looking at $9.5 million (I used the lowest possible numbers so it is likely a lot higher than this.)



Gold I would imagine is over $5 million (assuming that FFXV is being sold for $20 a pop when MSRP is $50) it should be at around $7 million, I'm sure this will be in the Plat ranking come the next time they show what the best selling games of Steam were and by then it may have sold close to 700k units if not already 1 million units.


I know bronze should be 1 million which I guess leaves silver to maybe $3 million? If raft is sold at $5 a pop and it has sold over 800k that means that it is looking at close to $3 million
 

QueenOfHunting

Gifting Queen
Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,561
Steam gaming is so weird. It almost smells musty. All these games remind of 1997 or something.

Team Fortress 2 (kill me of boredom, this game still exists edition)
Counter Strike (it's 2018 guys)

All these run on $200 laptops at max settings probably

so on.

Such old musty games.
hows those 2 year old musty switch delayed ports that run at sub 720p like wolfie
 
Feb 25, 2018
404
These are some real bullish estimates. Shining hitting a 100k would take a miracle. I doubt Shenmue goes anywhere near 200k either without big price cuts.
Isn't that what typically happens with some of these older SEGA ports? Or actually you are right I did not take into consideration that Shining and Shenmue are being released along side the console version and thus using the same discounts, okay Shining at 70k+ and Shenmue at 100k+ assuming that 30% off is the max discount that they get. I will be back in 1 year to check if I was wrong
 
Oct 27, 2017
453
The problem with Fallout 4 is that it is no where near as good as Skyrim. Skyrim was easy to start and play until I felt like stopping at 100 hours. I'm on my second failed attempt with fallout 4, this time pushing through to 20 hours.