Valve Removes Over 100 Steam Tributes To Suspected New Zealand Shooter

Oct 25, 2017
3,572
#51
I'm not sure if this is a rhetorical question or not...

I will say the fact that this is a news story implies to me that this is unexpected behavior from Valve. We are all used to their milquetoast responses to this type of thing. So good on them for changing, at least in this case.
I think it's also the fact that all tech companies - Twitter, Facebook, Valve, YouTube/Google - are being called-out on their reckless/apathetic attitude to hate in response to the New Zealand attack. This should be the first step to companies both taking responsibility, and being forced to take responsibilty for the rise of extremist white nationalism on the internet.
 
Oct 28, 2017
5,938
#52
There is no lecture. It was an honest question. For me it would be similar to a thread about a cop in the United States that shot and killed a minority and someone coming in and saying #notallcops. In the same way, of course not all Steam users are white supremacist shitheads and not all police officers are murdering psychopaths, but is the distinction worth pointing out?

The issue for me and many people is that Valve has done essentially nothing when it comes to deplatforming these types of people for years and years. They have left many of these discussion boards up to the individual developers themselves, many of whom simply don't have the resources to moderate them.

So the idea that you are angry that someone is calling all of Steam community a white supremacist cesspool just makes me think it's more important for you to be right about the degrees and less about how prevalent this problem is. If you think that's a lecture or that I'm insinuating something more about you than that, that is not my intention.
To compare this with notallcops is a gross reductionism of the associated responsibility, aims and membership requirements.

You still failed to address my underlying point. The murderers are from New Zealand. If Steam is a cesspool for members showing support of this mass murder, then New Zealand itself is a cesspool for actually giving birth and raising the murderers directly.

That's preposterous. Neither organization is actively cultivating such hostile culture. Besides throwing shade at Steam is just a petty way to absolve ourselves of our own participation in gaming culture that engenders certain hostile and toxic tendencies.

Neither Steam or New Zealand are justifiable scapegoats for what's going on here.
 
Oct 27, 2017
9,109
#53
To compare this with notallcops is a gross reductionism of the associated responsibility, aims and membership requirements.

You still failed to address my underlying point. The murderers are from New Zealand. If Steam is a cesspool for members showing support of this mass murder, then New Zealand itself is a cesspool for actually giving birth and raising the murderers directly.

That's preposterous. Neither organization is actively cultivating such hostile culture. Besides throwing shade at Steam is just a petty way to absolve ourselves of our own participation in gaming culture that engenders certain hostile and toxic tendencies.

Neither Steam or New Zealand are justifiable scapegoats for what's going on here.
To be pedantic, at least one murderer was from Australia.

You are completely missing the context. If New Zealand, or Australia, is proven to not have done enough in combating white supremacy and bigotry, then you can absolutely blame the country and/or government justifiably. In the same fashion, Valve has simply not done enough to combat this sort of thing on their platform. It comes up again and again, whether it's a particular game that doesn't immediately get deplatformed even if the most ardent libertarians on this site agree it should be, or the message boards for older games being turned into shitposts Nazi memes.

These things are complicated obviously, and you are right to think that blaming Valve for the entire situation is stupid. It absolutely is. But all of these companies are not doing enough to deplatform this type of hate to the point it is normalized. Hate against Muslims is prevalent across gaming, whether that's Twitch, or Steam, or PSN, or XBL. On Twitch there is literally a picture of an Indian man as an emote that is used when things blow up to indicate that a Muslim is committing suicide via a bomb or some such nonsense. All of these companies are contributing to the overall problem of radicalizing these young men.
 
Oct 25, 2017
10,381
#54
To compare this with notallcops is a gross reductionism of the associated responsibility, aims and membership requirements.

You still failed to address my underlying point. The murderers are from New Zealand. If Steam is a cesspool for members showing support of this mass murder, then New Zealand itself is a cesspool for actually giving birth and raising the murderers directly.

That's preposterous. Neither organization is actively cultivating such hostile culture. Besides throwing shade at Steam is just a petty way to absolve ourselves of our own participation in gaming culture that engenders certain hostile and toxic tendencies.

Neither Steam or New Zealand are justifiable scapegoats for what's going on here.
The man charged with murder was not one of us in any sense so stop with that shit. He came here specifically because its so far from the rest of the world.
We don't know anything about the others yet.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,104
#55
I think it's also the fact that all tech companies - Twitter, Facebook, Valve, YouTube/Google - are being called-out on their reckless/apathetic attitude to hate in response to the New Zealand attack. This should be the first step to companies both taking responsibility, and being forced to take responsibilty for the rise of extremist white nationalism on the internet.
Google/YouTube have hardly done anything, Facebook doesn't seem to care much, and as a daily active Twitter user, LOL. I also don't see Valve doing anything either.
 
Jan 4, 2018
747
#57
To be pedantic, at least one murderer was from Australia.

You are completely missing the context. If New Zealand, or Australia, is proven to not have done enough in combating white supremacy and bigotry, then you can absolutely blame the country and/or government justifiably. In the same fashion, Valve has simply not done enough to combat this sort of thing on their platform. It comes up again and again, whether it's a particular game that doesn't immediately get deplatformed even if the most ardent libertarians on this site agree it should be, or the message boards for older games being turned into shitposts Nazi memes.

These things are complicated obviously, and you are right to think that blaming Valve for the entire situation is stupid. It absolutely is. But all of these companies are not doing enough to deplatform this type of hate to the point it is normalized. Hate against Muslims is prevalent across gaming, whether that's Twitch, or Steam, or PSN, or XBL. On Twitch there is literally a picture of an Indian man as an emote that is used when things blow up to indicate that a Muslim is committing suicide via a bomb or some such nonsense. All of these companies are contributing to the overall problem of radicalizing these young men.
As someone who lives in Australia, I'd say we very much have racism problem/white people feeing hard done by immigrants.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,572
#58
Google/YouTube have hardly done anything, Facebook doesn't seem to care much, and as a daily active Twitter user, LOL. I also don't see Valve doing anything either.
I mean, that's my point, in a way? Valve have done something (this, though whether they do anything else is debatable), and it's not due to peer pressure (other tech firms also doing something) but either a) because they fear public/media pressure, or b) because they truly don't want this shit on their store. I imagine it's a bit of both, to be honest. But I can see the pressure being applied to the other tech companies being quite substantial, and at least Valve have been first up to the plate.
 
Oct 27, 2017
9,109
#59
As someone who lives in Australia, I'd say we very much have racism problem/white people feeing hard done by immigrants.
Unfortunately, you aren't alone. Here in the US, all over Europe, even in Canada, there are similar people. We just have to hope that love and tolerance wins out and continue to call out these companies and governments for not doing enough to combat this shit.
 

Durante

Dark Souls Man
Member
Oct 24, 2017
4,664
#65
Do you identify in some way with being part of the Steam community to the point where you think that this point is worth arguing?
Yes.

There were a large number of posters here banned in the pewdiepie thread related to this -- in the same relative ballpark of Resetera users as 100s of Steam profiles are of Steam users, actually.

So either the Resetera community is also a "cesspool", or perhaps characterizing an entire group based on the behaviour of <0.1% is a bad idea.
 
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Oct 27, 2017
9,109
#80
Yes.

There were a large number of posters here banned in the pewdiepie thread related to this -- in the same relative ballpark of Resetera users as 100s of Steam profiles are of Steam users, actually.

So either the Resetera community is also a "cesspool", or perhaps characterizing an entire group based on the behaviour of <0.1% is a bad idea.
The distinction of course is ERA's moderation actively deplatforms this stuff. Steam and Valve largely do not. I'd ask you not to tie any worth to any given platform the way you and others are in this thread but I fear that's rather pointless.
 

Durante

Dark Souls Man
Member
Oct 24, 2017
4,664
#81
The distinction of course is ERA's moderation actively deplatforms this stuff. Steam and Valve largely do not. I'd ask you not to tie any worth to any given platform the way you and others are in this thread but I fear that's rather pointless.
Sorry, I do associate worth with communities that I enjoy participating in, which includes the vast majority of the Steam community -- which is actually helpful and productive.

I don't make that association dependent on the worst <0.1% of any given group, and I do not see any reason I should.
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,296
#82
Do you identify in some way with being part of the Steam community to the point where you think that this point is worth arguing? Even if you're right, what's the point?
Yes. Why is this a question? If someone said Era was a cesspool I would also want to defend the good in this community, even though I've seen many hateful idiots on here.

The distinction of course is ERA's moderation actively deplatforms this stuff. Steam and Valve largely do not.
This thread is Valve deplatforming a bunch of idiots before being asked to by anyone
 
Oct 27, 2017
4,251
#83
Yeah, the steam forums in general are disgusting, but this is another level
Yeah, though I don't find it surprising. I've stubled accross a couple white supremecist Steam communities before, this stuff has always been there. Like various social media platforms, Valve basically left these things to fester, and only now is doing something because a bunch drew attention to themselves en masse immediately following a highly visable act of mass murder.
 
Oct 27, 2017
9,109
#84
Sorry, I do associate worth with communities that I enjoy participating in, which includes the vast majority of the Steam community -- which is actually helpful and productive.

I don't make that association dependent on the worst <0.1% of any given group, and I do not see any reason I should.
I enjoy Twitch that doesn't stop it from being a cesspool of intolerant fuck heads.

You and others put your fingers in your ears and say la la la while this shit continues to get worse if you want. I certainly can't stop you.
 
Oct 27, 2017
434
#85
As someone who lives in Australia, I'd say we very much have racism problem/white people feeing hard done by immigrants.
I had listen to an Australian woman, ten thousand miles away from home, on vacation, complaining about how immgrants are screwing them over.
When she started talking about Alex fucking Jones I just noped the hell out.
 
Oct 25, 2017
360
#86
Fuck right off with that. What part of DOZENS vs like 300 million users do you not get? There's probbly dozens of asshats on reset era that would say something equally terrible either to troll or to be assholes if they knew they weren't going to get banned.

That's not to say this isn't a problem with gaming communities all over, but that's the point. This is a problem on PSN, Xbox live, Steam.... basically the internet is the issue.
Hell you even see that shit on Facebook and that's not anonymous at all. Some people are just scum.
 

Durante

Dark Souls Man
Member
Oct 24, 2017
4,664
#87
I enjoy Twitch that doesn't stop it from being a cesspool of intolerant fuck heads.

You and others put your fingers in your ears and say la la la while this shit continues to get worse if you want. I certainly can't stop you.
The thing is that this is not what's happening. What's actually happening, and what this thread is about, is Valve removing destructive content from a small subset of users, and doing so rather rapidly. And what you are spinning from it is that everyone should agree with the idea that the entire Steam community is a "cesspool". That's not a convincing argument.

More importantly, being able to disassociate the actions of a tiny fraction of a group from that entire group isn't "putting your fingers in your ears", it's making a judgement that is both empathic and rational. And if people were able to do that in most cases we would in fact greatly curtail some of the fundamental appeal of hate groups of all kinds.
 
Oct 27, 2017
9,109
#89
Like why in 2019 is it fucking okay to have PC Master Race memes? It's just fucking normalizing Nazis. Fuck that shit. That shit needs to be excised from any reasonable person's vernacular.

The thing is that this is not what's happening. What's actually happening, and what this thread is about, is Valve removing destructive content from a small subset of users, and doing so rather rapidly. And what you are spinning from it is that everyone should agree with the idea that the entire Steam community is a "cesspool". That's not a convincing argument.

More importantly, being able to disassociate the actions of a tiny fraction of a group from that entire group isn't "putting your fingers in your ears", it's making a judgement that is both empathic and rational. And if people were able to do that in most cases we would in fact greatly curtail some of the fundamental appeal of hate groups of all kinds.
The fact you are unable to acknowledge Valve's history regarding this type of shit is rather unbelievable. Yeah sure Valve is wonderful for doing the bare minimum in this individual case. Let's ignore their history because far be it for anyone to criticize them and their actions. You won't allow that to happen.

As far as your second point, no Steam users aren't the victim when I imply or even outright state a lot of them are shitty. They are shitty and have demonstrated themselves to be so. Like all large gaming communities.
 

Durante

Dark Souls Man
Member
Oct 24, 2017
4,664
#90
Yeah sure Valve is wonderful
I didn't say that. I said that this topic is about "Valve removing destructive content from a small subset of users, and doing so rather rapidly".
Which it is.

Let's ignore their history because far be it for anyone to criticize them and their actions. You won't allow that to happen.
I've criticized Valve's actions a few hundred times over the past decade or two (all of which is archived online). I've done so in another thread today, actually.

That's all completely besides the point though; our whole discussion did not, in fact, concern Valve, their history, or even their actions today: it was about you agreeing with characterizing the entire Steam community as a "cesspool", and asking whether anyone thinks that point is worth arguing.
I did think so, and I will continue to do so regardless of what easily disprovable strawmen you make up regarding my position.

As far as your second point, no Steam users aren't the victim when I imply or even outright state a lot of them are shitty. They are shitty and have demonstrated themselves to be so. Like all large gaming communities.
I did not say or imply anything about victims. Are you incapable of arguing without misrepresenting your opponents' position?
What I did say is that it's meaningless and often counterproductive to judge any group by its worst members.
No one -- certainly not I -- will prevent you from saying that a lot of Steam users, or members of gaming communities for that matter, are shitty. But that is generally true for all sufficiently large groups of humans, and if that is your threshold for identifying anything as a "cesspool" then the term doesn't have much meaning.
 
Oct 25, 2017
562
Australia
#92
Do you identify in some way with being part of the Steam community to the point where you think that this point is worth arguing? Even if you're right, what's the point?
If a point is right then it's worth making. The reason why it's important to point this out is that discrimination, stereotyping and sweeping generalisations are bad for society, whether it's the more important and pertinent cases of racism or the less damaging but still incorrect and pointless cases of stereotyping like the OP's using here.

There is no lecture. It was an honest question. For me it would be similar to a thread about a cop in the United States that shot and killed a minority and someone coming in and saying #notallcops. In the same way, of course not all Steam users are white supremacist shitheads and not all police officers are murdering psychopaths, but is the distinction worth pointing out?
No, it'd be like a black person (or many black people) saying or doing something inciteful and having the OP say "wow the black community are a cesspool." You can make all the arguments you'd like that "well of course I didn't mean the whole black community" but this is the exact opposite kind of sweeping generalisation we need right now. One that causes harm to society, no matter what demographic it's aimed at.

So the idea that you are angry that someone is calling all of Steam community a white supremacist cesspool just makes me think it's more important for you to be right about the degrees and less about how prevalent this problem is. If you think that's a lecture or that I'm insinuating something more about you than that, that is not my intention.
Maybe they want to call out sweeping generalisations on the whole, as sweeping generalisations are largely how we reached such a divisive and broken social landscape in the first place? The only right thing to do is call it out whenever you see it, however trivial it is, not just when it makes you personally offended, or when it fits neatly into your predefined understanding of generalisations.
 
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Nov 8, 2017
74
#97
These absolute trash sadly are vocal among gamers and convey a very wrong impression of gamers to the public.
It is so sad that video games will always be a scapegoat to these incidents for some, and hence ignore the true problem of the society.
Hate crimes are the worst due to it's deep impact to incite more hate, but little has been done to stop it from happening.
 
Oct 27, 2017
1,791
#99
Honestly?
"Over 100" would have been a lowball for me.

Steam profiles were a mistake.

Like why in 2019 is it fucking okay to have PC Master Race memes? It's just fucking normalizing Nazis. Fuck that shit. That shit needs to be excised from any reasonable person's vernacular.
I agree. "PC master race" has always been, and will continue to be, disgusting and cringeworthy.