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Haint

Banned
Oct 14, 2018
1,361
Faced with what most expected would be a near mass recall of the new Index (aka Knuckles) VR controllers, now a full week later, Valve's response can no longer reasonably be blamed on misunderstandings or ill informed CSR's. Launched last Friday, June 28th, VR circles were immediately taken over by complaints about the Index controller's thumbsticks. A defect pattern quickly emerged where the left stick will not click ("L3") when tilted up or down while the right stick will not click ("R3") when tilted left or right. Obviously Forward + Click is used as the Sprint/Run input in a vast majority of first and third person schemes, and this is standard in free locomotion VR as well. Many titles are significantly hampered if not rendered effectively unplayable. While anecdotally the defect rate seems substantial, there are many reports of units that function normally as well as a wide range of variability and partial functionality. Some units seemingly won't register tilted click inputs at all while others require extreme pressure to do so. DIY and Teardown tinkerers have taken to Youtube with the how's, why's, and potential fixes while other "solutions" are leading desperate players to cause even more damage. It should be noted that many developers with pre-release hardware saw fit to map Sprint to L3 in their new Index/Knuckles exclusive control schemes further supporting that this is limited to manufacturing defects and not by design. Valve's current company line as of this writing is that it's by design. They supposedly expect the sticks not to click, but still register the input. However it will require significantly more click pressure to actuate it at the extremities. They have emphasized any replacements sent will have the same defects.
 
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SixelAlexiS

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,729
Italy
L3 for run is trash anyway, just use another button, like R3 so you don't have to click it while pushing forward.
 

BUNTING1243

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,709
Valve transitioning from partnering with HTC and only building their own hardware on a smaller-scale to building their own headset internally was probably bound to have some growing pains. This sounds like a real fucking mess, though. I hope they fix this ASAP.
 

Charcoal

Member
Nov 2, 2017
7,516
@Valve
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I KILL PXLS

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,537
It should be noted that many developers with pre-release hardware saw fit to map Sprint to L3 in their new Index/Knuckles exclusive control schemes further supporting that this is limited to manufacturing defects and not by design.[/URL].
Actually from the posts I remember seeing on Reddit, this was a known issue with the prototypes that devs assumed would be fixed.
 

Calibro

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,822
Belarus
BuT iT's EaRlY aDoPtEr HaRdWaRe YoU sHoUlD eXpEcT tHaT

Seriously Valve, it's not like they're happy meal toys, they're $300. What the fuck.
 

SigSig

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,777
Further proof that stick-click is the worst type of input.
Doesn't excuse Valve, tho.
 

MrBob

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,670
Yeah this seems like a pretty big issue to me. Still didn't get my index bundle yet will probably cancel over this.
 

Deleted member 21709

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
23,310
Hopefully they introduce a hardware revision that fixes the issue. This makes me want to wait a while before getting Index.
 

kirbyfan407

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,112
Well, this seems...odd. The fact that some don't have this issue is what makes Valve's story bizarre. Would those working models then be the defective ones?
 
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Tigress

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,150
Washington
Are they trying to compete with htc for bad customer service and do they want their vr to be a legacy of crappy hardware that does not get supported right?
 

Deleted member 23212

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
11,225
This is what happens when you get such a foothold, you become complacent. Now those who bought it are going to have to give them a ton of shit to get them to change it.
 

Syril

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,895
I'm reminded of the original line about the first PSP having a faulty square button.
Kutaragi was unapologetic about the issue: "This is the design that we came up with. There may be people that complain about its usability, but that's something which users and game software developers will have to adapt to. I didn't want the PSP's LCD screen to become any smaller than this, nor did I want its machine body to become any larger.

"The button's location is [architectured] on purpose," Kutaragi added. "It's according to specifications. This is something that we've created, and this is our specification. There was a clear purpose to it, and it wasn't a mistake."

Offering additional testimony praising the handheld, Kutaragi said, "I believe we made the most beautiful thing in the world. Nobody would criticize a renowned architect's blueprint that the position of a gate is wrong. It's the same as that."
 

Ploid 6.0

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,440
I love the Steam Controller but unknowingly I've been thinking the gyro drift was software related and later the analog drift was a weird steam input glitch and it's too late to do anything about it. They wouldn't even sell me replacement parts since the Y button's membrane is worn out and has a delay before it pops back up with a loud annoying click. Apparently a new Steam Controller model may be coming and I'll grab that, but if any little thing feels wrong I'll send it back, I'll only order it from Amazon because of that.
 

.exe

Member
Oct 25, 2017
22,229
This is what happens when you get such a foothold, you become complacent. Now those who bought it are going to have to give them a ton of shit to get them to change it.

Oh give me a break. It's not like Nintendo doesn't continue to ship totally broken d-pads since launch. Is that also because of their foothold? It's damage control, plain and simple.
 

Pargon

Member
Oct 27, 2017
12,013
From the response that you linked to:
If you aren't able to produce input at the edge, we're happy to start the replacement process for you. As a reminder, while the thumbstick on the replacement unit will register input when pressed at the edges, it will still require more force at the edge than in the center, and may not produce a "click" feel.
This sounds like it was a compromise made with the controller design that people are trying to label as a defect. Not registering a click would obviously be defective.
A similar example might be the square button on the original PlayStation Portable. It's functional, but doesn't feel as good as the other buttons because they compromised on its design in order to make the device smaller (that button is right next to the display)
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Oct 29, 2017
598
It should be noted that many developers with pre-release hardware saw fit to map Sprint to L3 in their new Index/Knuckles exclusive control schemes further supporting that this is limited to manufacturing defects and not by design.
Not trying to defend anything, but wouldnt the quoted part mean that its by design, and not defect? If developers are designing around it, it would suggest that its intentional?

Surely the sticks should be clickable in the forward position, but the above argument seems counter intuitive to me.
 

PennyStonks

Banned
May 17, 2018
4,401
From my understanding, the click being absent is intentional. It is only broken if your input is not registered when pressing in. I get it's an annoying design choice to remove the click, but its not defective, and it sounds like they will fix it if you are getting dropped inputs.
 

Vash63

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,681
I honestly don't expect them to fix this and don't care either way. Even on pancake games stick click to run has always felt shitty, and in VR there's just a ton of better ways to handle it (lowering your weapon, 'armswinger' mode like h3vr). It was reported to Valve on the dev models and they didn't change it, and they're still saying they aren't going to change it, so anyone interested basically should just treat this as how it is.

You're still getting controllers with the absolute best tracking quality, finger tracking for natural gestures and tons of other features like pressure sensitive grips and touchpads that the competition doesn't have. If needing the stick click to run when literally all games have other locomotion options is important to you, you should probably just pick up a Rift S.
 

gabdeg

Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,962
🐝
Already posted this in the Index thread but to me the response the customer service reps gave reminds me of stuff you'd read from a shady Kickstarter campaign, where the creators ran out of money and have to address issues they know they can't afford to fix. Valve however has more than enough money to fix this.
From my understanding, the click being absent is intentional. It is only broken if your input is not registered when pressing in. I get it's an annoying design choice to remove the click, but its not defective, and it sounds like they will fix it if you are getting dropped inputs.
They specifically designed the click to be absent on different axes on different controllers? They had working controllers that clicked everywhere you pushed the stick and they then decided to artificially hamper the ability by removing the clicking sensation from certain axes and specific degrees of movement of the stick? If the stick actually only clicked in while centered, I may believe that theory, but the weird imprecise nature of this points to a defect. One of the ways to fix the problem is to add like 0.5mm of solder to the analog stick rod (see OP). This restores the clicking functionality entirely.
 
OP
OP
Haint

Haint

Banned
Oct 14, 2018
1,361
Not trying to defend anything, but wouldnt the quoted part mean that its by design, and not defect? If developers are designing around it, it would suggest that its intentional?

Surely the sticks should be clickable in the forward position, but the above argument seems counter intuitive to me.

I think you misread that part. Many of them mapped Sprint to Forward + Click (L3) implying they had units that functioned normally and did not have to design around it.
 

PennyStonks

Banned
May 17, 2018
4,401
They specifically designed the click to be absent on different axes on different controllers? They had working controllers that clicked everywhere you pushed the stick and they then decided to artificially hamper the ability by removing the clicking sensation from certain axes and specific degrees of movement of the stick? If the stick actually only clicked in while centered, I may believe that theory, but the weird imprecise nature of this points to a defect. One of the ways to fix the problem is to add like 0.5mm of solder to the analog stick rod (see OP). This restores the clicking functionality entirely.
ya its probably just broke
 
Dec 25, 2018
3,077
$279 controllers is ridiculous for anyone even spending that much. It's insane how bad the Valve index launch is, I hear to even send back the Valve Index that they make you pay for shipping. Guess that's what beta testing is for. Not to mention there's hardly any games that are compatible.
 

ZugZug123

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,412
Valve needs to actually have customer support. These VR sets are expensive consumer goods, service level that for refunding $5 games will not work for someone that dropped $300 on the controller.
 

Absolute

Banned
Nov 6, 2017
2,090
User Banned (1 day): Drive by trolling.
Huh? Everyone in the valve doesn't deserve 30% camp said Valve don't make hardware. Thinking emoji. I'm sure they won't be also happily posting in here at Valve's fuck up.

Hopefully Valve just take the loss and sort everyone out that is affected because at the moment this sounds dreadful. You can't have an item priced like this failing out of the box.
 

TaySan

SayTan
Member
Dec 10, 2018
31,438
Tulsa, Oklahoma
These are $300 controllers not Mcdonald happy meals toys. Valve has plenty of money to invest in a customer service department.
 

Harlequin

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,614
Huh? Everyone in the valve doesn't deserve 30% camp said Valve don't make hardware. Thinking emoji. I'm sure they won't be also happily posting in here at Valve's fuck up.

Hopefully Valve just take the loss and sort everyone out that is affected because at the moment this sounds dreadful. You can't have an item priced like this failing out of the box.
How many Steam users actually have an Index or Knuckles? How many developers on Steam create games exclusively for those devices? How many users have a Steam Controller? How many play on Linux, for that matter? You will find that they're all in the minority by a pretty large margin. And even then, it's not like the Index is a self-contained device. You still need your own PC to run games on it. Bringing up the 30% discussion in this case is somewhat non-sensical.
 

Siresly

Prophet of Regret
Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,580
If this is a "characteristic" that's only present in some units, on different axes, and people are able to DIY it into not being one by essentially extending the length of the rod holding the thumbstick, then I am highly skeptical of Valve's claim that this is by design.

If it only affects the clicky feel but still registers the input without requiring too much pressure, perhaps it's not that significant of a problem?
But still, it is a problem with tactile feedback that you don't expect to find in expensive hardware, and which doesn't feel right to users, because most if not all other analog sticks ever have not behaved this way.

Also I've noticed that I keep saying "DUI" in my head when I mean DIY.
I mean to do that. It's by design.
 
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Pryme

Member
Aug 23, 2018
8,164
Huh? Everyone in the valve doesn't deserve 30% camp said Valve don't make hardware. Thinking emoji. I'm sure they won't be also happily posting in here at Valve's fuck up.

People said they don't make consoles or hardware to play games. A PC VR HMD is an accessory. Nice try, though.

Let's not even talk about the (most certainly) significant markup and profit margins on the hardware
 

Lagamorph

Wrong About Chicken
Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,355
Valve continue the tradition of terrible controllers they started with the Steam controller.
 

Walnut

One Winged Slayer
Member
Nov 2, 2017
878
Austin, TX
The people who think that Valve doesn't deserve to charge a 30% cut on their store are wrong, but it has nothing to do with the Index launch being botched. Similarly bringing up the Rift S is unrelated, as it also had major launch issues and very little to do with the Index or Valve.
 

Wat

Member
Dec 10, 2017
221
Clearly a mess-up by Valve, but of all possible defects that could have occurred this is one with nearly no consequence IMO. Simultaneous click+direction on analog stick should never be used in a control scheme, it's bad design even on fully working hardware.