Verge: "Destiny 2: Shadowkeep Is The Game Destiny Always Should Have Been"

Psychoward

Member
Nov 7, 2017
18,998
He clearly does. Don't tell people what they want.

There are ways to do Raid matchmaking.

- Have it only available for normal difficult at first, add it to hard difficulty after a couple/few months have passed.
- Make it unavailable unless you're max Power Level.
- Make it so you can't use it if the game detects a mic.
- Perhaps even allow other players to vote to kick a player if it is unanimous.

And the best part? You don't need to use it if you don't want to!
Reminds me of all the people saying you actually don't want WoW classic.
 

Vengeance

Member
Jan 11, 2018
2,228
It most definitely is. Have loved my time with Shadowkeep since it launched on the 1st. The ability to make actual builds now is absolutely amazing and I love the Moon. It feels similar to how it felt in Destiny while still having pretty significant differences as well.

Forsaken felt like a special sea-change in what Destiny was/could be, but Shadowkeep feels like a few small tweaks that brings the game closer to Bungie's vision for the game. The fact that it takes place in a slightly changed vanilla Destiny area is hopefully just because Bungie has been devoting more energy and time to figuring out their new business model and separating from Activision. I'd really like to see a gigantic expansion next year with multiple new areas and systems.
Bungie made it clear from the jump that this was never going to be a Forsaken sized expansion. Luke even mentioned that Shadowkeep would be more akin to Rise of Iron than Forsaken. Hell, there were rumors that year 3 D2 was just going to be another annual pass, so Shadowkeep was likely made relatively quickly.
 
He clearly does. Don't tell people what they want.
"Options are good" is my stance on most things, but this is a big, big exception. People do not want raid matchmaking, trust me. Sometimes I wish Bungie would implement it for a weekend just so people can see what a disaster that would be.

For raids, you need a coordinated team. No exceptions, no excuses, no substitutions. Doesn't matter how high your power level is or how well you can shoot. One person misses a callout, everyone dies. Six randoms that know the raid inside and out might just barely be able to do it (after some planning/group assignments), but keep in mind that's the ideal situation, and highly unlikely to happen given Bungie's sometimes-questionable matchmaking algorithm.

Guided Games are a good solution to the matchmaking problem, IMO. When you have one person (and one person only) who doesn't know the raid, it becomes manageable for five experienced clanmates to show them the ropes. You tip the scales any further than that, it's just going to end in frustration.
 

jimtothehum

Member
Mar 23, 2018
292
Destiny 2, at this point, is pretty much the game I was hoping to get when I first purchased Destiny 1. Super happy with what they have done.
 

Nora

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,617
I feel like I've heard this exact sentence with the last 3-4 Destiny releases and expansions which is why I've still never jumped in.
Yeah I hear this line SO OFTEN about Destiny that it sounds like the desperate justification of someone who can't stop playing it for whatever reason, in spite of its many flaws
 

ZeoVGM

Member
Oct 25, 2017
24,903
Providence / Boston
Reminds me of all the people saying you actually don't want WoW classic.
I mean, don't get me wrong: it will suck at times. But you know what else sucks at times? Playing with people from an LFG site. There are countless times where people would just drop out and we'd have to go back and find more. It happens.

Realistically, this is how I would do matchmaking in Destiny:

- LFG should be available in-game from the day a Raid launches. This would be an option on the 'Launch' screen of the Raid. There would be a 'Fireteam Finder" button right next to the 'Launch' button. Clicking this would bring up a screen that has a similar design to private Crucible matches. You choose to make a Fireteam or find one. If you choose to find one, you can scroll through a long list after selecting your own criteria. If you want to make one, you can set up all the options and then others can find your group. Mics would be mandatory. Once you have the Fireteam you want, it's time to hit that 'Launch' button.

- Matchmaking should be added to Raids at the beginning of the next season, so 3-4 months after a Raid launches. As I mentioned before, there would be specific criteria such as the game needing to detect a mic, having to have beaten the Raid start to finish with your own Fireteam (LFG or not), being max Power Level and having to understand that the group can vote to kick you if it is unanimous.

- The 'Fireteam Finder' should then be applied to all other activities as well. Even if you're just landing in a Patrol zone, there should be a 'Fireteam Finder' on the 'Launch' screen there so you can find others to play with if you want. (Mics not mandatory for this, but you could make it so if you're creating the Fireteam yourself.)

- Blind matchmaking should be turned on for every single strike activity, including all difficulties of Nightfall. They finally added matchmaking to the lower levels of Nightfall after years of stubbornness but it should be available for all activities. The 'Fireteam Finder' would be there as well, of course.

- As a bonus, turn the Heroic Story Missions into a strike-like playlist with matchmaking instead of 5 random missions a day without matchmaking. I'd legitimately play that just for fun.
 

Niceguydan8

Member
Nov 1, 2017
2,377
That just means that the game is improving, I really don't understand why this is being used as a rod to beat it with.
I flat out disagree with the sentiment(I don't think re-visiting a reworked old location should be the standard for new content) but I also think if it keeps being repeated, it almost comes across as crying wolf.
 

JustTom

Member
May 28, 2018
445
Germany...
I feel like I've heard this exact sentence with the last 3-4 Destiny releases and expansions which is why I've still never jumped in.
i thought the exact same thing. Whenever Destiny or Destiny 2 got a big update people went like „Tis is what Destiny should have been at launch. Now it is the game it always wanted to be.“ So yeah, I call bullshit. While Destiny’s gunplay is superb (!) after a few weeks there will be nothing left to, it’s always been like that.
 
OP
OP
Strakt

Strakt

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,163
i thought the exact same thing. Whenever Destiny or Destiny 2 got a big update people went like „Tis is what Destiny should have been at launch. Now it is the game it always wanted to be.“ So yeah, I call bullshit. While Destiny’s gunplay is superb (!) after a few weeks there will be nothing left to, it’s always been like that.


Totally nothing left to do after a few weeks....
 

astro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,287
Shadowkeep buy in includes weekly content drops. THAT is the model, and anyone judging it on day one content doesn't understand their model.

Honeymoon phase. IMO the changes are all positive but by end of November people will find the long term flaws with the new systems.
Knee jerk reactions from the typical naysers IMO, many of these people will be back when the season expands.
 

John Rabbit

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,792
This perpetual need to declare Destiny "the best it's ever been" has gotten ridiculously stale and a little desperate honestly. I like the game a lot, so I play it a lot. If you don't like it, don't play it. A huge chunk of it is F2P now so it's even easier for people to test the water and see if it's something they want to do.
 

AlexBasch

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,644
I don't even do Raids or Clan stuff and I know LFG sites are a thing, or Reddit, if you don't want to do the Raids it's only because you simply don't want to.

I don't get the whole debate about it.
 
Nov 14, 2017
2,182
Yup, this.

I'm certain the game gets better and better.
But this is like what? 2 full games and like 7 expansions in?

"Destiny 2's Forsaken expansion might be the best the series has ever been"
"Destiny 2 is everything fans have been asking for"
Destiny has been getting better and better. Launch D2 was, for all its faults, a solid game. Unfortunately it was only a good 100hr game, when we wanted a 1000hr game. Forsaken pretty much sorted that out, and I've spent like 1000hrs over the past year playing Forsaken. Shadowkeep seems fine too.
 

Bold One

Member
Oct 30, 2017
7,637
I flat out disagree with the sentiment(I don't think re-visiting a reworked old location should be the standard for new content) but I also think if it keeps being repeated, it almost comes across as crying wolf.
It's fine to disagree, opinions and all that. The majority of the Destiny community has been crying out to have a unified universe, so I personally hope they bring back Cosmodrome and other locations.

The game improved form Warmind and improved again from Forsaken and improved again with Skeep. The general consensus is that the franchise is on an upwards trajectory - no one is saying the game is now perfect, that's why next year, more articles will say its improved again.

That is a good thing.
 
Nov 14, 2017
2,182
None of that is an argument against what I said.

Don't use it if you don't want it. Simple.
The problem is that if people use the matchmaking and find it hard, then the onus is on Bungie to balance it so it can be completed.

Bungie have always been very clear that if they make content you can match into, you should be able to complete it without being in voice chat. Having content that you matchmake into but have to be in voice chat to complete would be a significant departure from the current design.
 

Niceguydan8

Member
Nov 1, 2017
2,377
It's fine to disagree, opinions and all that. The majority of the Destiny community has been crying out to have a unified universe, so I personally hope they bring back Cosmodrome and other locations.

The game improved form Warmind and improved again from Forsaken and improved again with Skeep. The general consensus is that the franchise is on an upwards trajectory - no one is saying the game is now perfect, that's why next year, more articles will say its improved again.

That is a good thing.
I guess I just think there's a bit more nuance to the point where I don't think it's great to say it's "the game destiny always should have been." I'm actually enjoying Shadowkeep quite a bit, but I can point to things Shadowkeep does better than other Destiny expansions but also point at other expansions and say "Destiny clearly did (x) better here." (I have a really low bar for Destiny story and Shadowkeep's story is awful imo)

I guess for me, I would simply say "Shadowkeep offers a mixed bag of steps forward and back, but offers a solid package overall." That being said, I also think a fair of the positives here are not exclusive to Shadowkeep either.
 

astro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,287
None of that is an argument against what I said.

Don't use it if you don't want it. Simple.
We've done this to death but it's not that simple.

Matchmaking would turn many people away from the raid because of all the inherent issues iwth MM. People who would have sought out LFG but instead clicked MM and got turned away from the mode forever. Potentially reducing the pool in LFG.

MM raids would also create a new type of player to cater to, players who expect the MM raids to work well, and they would nee to be designed specifically around MM (basically, dumbed down or mechanics remade) to work.

It would remove focus and resources from other areas of development, and could effect the population of players wanting to raid.

MM for raids would not be a victimless crime.
 

MrCibb

Member
Dec 12, 2018
811
UK
This being my first experience with Destiny 2, I'm honestly loving it. Can't comment on how it used to be or if this is how it "should have been", can only say what it is now is damn fun. Didn't expect to as much as I am. I've not yet bought Shadowkeep since I'm just enjoying the free stuff right now but I fully intend to very soon. I did the opening mission on the Moon before it locks you behind the paywall and it was great. Always happy to support Bungie too.
 

astro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,287
This being my first experience with Destiny 2, I'm honestly loving it. Can't comment on how it used to be or if this is how it "should have been", can only say what it is now is damn fun. Didn't expect to as much as I am. I've not yet bought Shadowkeep since I'm just enjoying the free stuff right now but I fully intend to very soon. I did the opening mission on the Moon before it locks you behind the paywall and it was great. Always happy to support Bungie too.
Join us in the OT and the discord! Our community is really friendly, helpful, knowledgable. We have sherpas dedicated to helping new and old players alike. I'm a sherpa on PC if you're on the platform and ever need help with anything!

Discord LFG is, imo, the best way to find guardians for activities with no MM.
 

Asriel

Member
Dec 7, 2017
852
I'm having a blast with it
This being my first experience with Destiny 2, I'm honestly loving it. Can't comment on how it used to be or if this is how it "should have been", can only say what it is now is damn fun. Didn't expect to as much as I am. I've not yet bought Shadowkeep since I'm just enjoying the free stuff right now but I fully intend to very soon. I did the opening mission on the Moon before it locks you behind the paywall and it was great. Always happy to support Bungie too.
The same! I'm not a bug shooter person, but I'm having a ton of fun. And the game is absolutely stunning on the 1X. It's a bit disorienting at first, but having so much to do is pretty exciting and it hasn't gotten boring for me yet.
 
Jun 14, 2019
470
well i jumped back in with shadowkeep, ive played 55 hours and finished shadowkeep story done pretty much every game type but a raid, and done all the weekly challenges and everything. in all this time so far ive not had one exotic engram or exotic drop. really starting to feel like the game is very anti loot in a way considering there is an exotic vendor who sells 4 exotics and changes every friday.

i could have technically not played this whole time and just log in every friday and buy exotics.
 

astro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,287
For any new players needing a little guidance:

I've written this out a few times, but this is what you should, imo, do as a brand new player:

1
Finish the tutorial mission.


2
Read the pop up that appears when you visit the tower. It will show you a Symbol (blue diamond with the Destiny logo), speak with EVERY NPC on the map in the tower that has this symbol before you do anything else. Read what they say carefully and look at what they offer.

-- The game does not explain its systems well, but you can extrapolate a lot of stuff if you really pay attention. Banshee-44, for instance, sells two mods per day: 1 weapon and 1 armour. Then if you check your weapons and armour you will see you can choose a mod for each. This is in no way making an excuse for the game's poor on-boarding, BUT it will help you a lot if you do this.



3
Play the old campaigns. An NPC called Amanda Holiday in the Hanger in the Tower has these. She is one of the NPCs mentioned above. If you play these campaigns, you will be caught up with current D2 story. It is not complex at all, standard light Vs Dark stuff, and you do not need to know D1 story to get where Destiny 2 is. It's very generic, but it will give context to all the story stuff you hear in strikes and end game activities.



4
Once you finish all the campaigns you own, you should move on to increasing your power level. You will do this by loot gained via play in ANY activity. Once you hit 900, you will notice yellow orb symbols appear next to some destinations in the main destination tab. These are called 'Challenges' and they will reward you with powerful gear that goes above 900.
--- See this image. This is what Gambit Prime, for exmaple, will show you when you hit PL900. The challenge will appear. This one requires you to complete 3 matches.



Challenges will reward items that are slightly above your power level, and each tier offers slightly more boost than the previous.

You need to complete these in order to level up further. You will also randomly find prime engrams which are legendary engrams that give powerful rewards that go above 900.



5
The activities you choose in step 4 depend on what content you own. With the base game and New Light (the F2P content) you will have access to a lot of quests. Some of these will reward an exotic weapon, some will further the story a little, It is up to you to choose which you want to work on. If you go to your Quests tab you will see two areas: Quests and Bounties.

Quests are your basic MMO style quest chains. Go to X area and kill Y, collect X amount of Y, play a harder variant of mission X, etc...

Bounties are daily or weekly single stage quests that reward you with materials and XP.



6
Learn which NPCs give what type of bounty, for example: Zavala in the tower hands out Strike bounties, Shaxx hands out Crucible bounties, Ada hands out Black Armory (forges) bounties, Drifter hands out Gambit bounties. You should always collect these, daily and weekly, before you engage in the activities they match. There are also NPCs on each planet who offer 3 dail bounties that reward that planet's resource and xp.

Most of these vendors will have items you can buy from them. To access these you need to unlock a certain amount of packages. To gain packages from each vendor you need to hand in the materials they take in exchange. A package will contain a legendary piece of gear from their specific loot pool. They also contain bonus items like shaders and weapon/armour mods.

Example: Shaxx's crucible bounties award XP and crucible tokens. Every 20 tokens gets you a package which contains a single weapon or piece of armour from the crucible loot pool.



7
So, this will be your standard gameplay loop after beating the campaigns and reaching PL 900:

- Log in and collect your daily bounties.
- Complete activities that reward you with powerful gear.
- Work on any Quests you have that reward the weapons and gear you want.
- Try to overlap bounties, quests, and challenges so you can make efficient progress.

As you level up, more activities will become available to you like the harder levels of nightfalls and the raid. Your main goal in this game is to reach max PL (960) and chase gear to build load outs for end-game and general play.



8
That's the basic gameplay, but there is a lot of other stuff that you should understand that you will probably need to look up or ask about. The game does a poor job of explaining its systems overall, but f you have experience with RPGs and MMO type games it's not very complex. You will be able wo work it out fairly quickly once you stop feeling overwhelmed with the various systems.



Ok, that's a lot of stuff... why should I even bother to put all that effort in to learning?
Honestly? While Destiny's onboarding is frustrating and poorly explained, the game offers some of the absolute best co-op FPS gameplay available. To the point it absolutely stomps on the competition.

Not only is the minute to minute gameplay top tier, but there is a large variety of activities to choose from. End game in Destiny is amazing, and supports both solo and group play.

The game offers:

- Campaigns: single player curated FPS campaigns.
- Patrols: free-roam areas that have public events, lost sectors, hunts, chests and resources to farm, etc..
- Strikes: missions where you travel from A->B taking out enemies and making your way to a boss.
- Gambit/Bambit Prime: a PvEvP mode where two opposing teams battle out alongside each other to kill enemies, bank motes, and take down a boss.
- Reckoning: a 3 player activity tied to the Gambit modes that has 3 guardians crossing a bridge and entering another realm to kill a boss.
- Crucible: PvP with various modes. Clash, Control, Rumble. A competitive playlist with unique rewards attached, and now a solo comp queue!
- Nightfalls: hard mode variants of strikes with higher rewards.
- Menagerie: a 6 player activity with raid-lite mechanics that you set a "recipe" for a specific weapon you are rewarded with on completion.
- Forges: 3 player horde mode type that allows you to forge specific weapons.
- Pinnacle and Relic weapons: quest chains that reward you with a specific weapon
- Exotic quests: quest chains that reward you with an exotic weapon.
- Dreaming City is a more end-game focused patrol area that comes with Forsaken. It has unique activities like Blind Well (a public event style horde mode) and the Ascendant challenges (a weekly challenge that takes you to a unique area to complete a specific activity).
- Dungeons and unique exotic endgame missions: Shattered Throne, Zero Hour, Whisper of the Worm. Unique missions with unique loot. Zero Hour, for instance, gives yo u20 minutes to battle through encounters and find your way through a jump puzzle style challenge to take down the boss before you run out of time - this specific mission is the last stage of the Outbreak Perfected exotic pulse rifle.
- Raids: the pinnacle end-game activity. 6 guardians group to take down a sequence of challenges that reward with unique loot. Communication and team work is key, this is what you've been gearing up for!
-- and more!

There is a lot to chew on whether you're causally playing or gearing up for end game. The end-game is challenging and fun, some of it has matchmaking, some if it requires you to build a group yourself, but all of it is engaging and, imo, better than any other loot shooter/RPG type out there.

I play solo for the majority of my game time. I use matchmaking to play certain activities, and I solo some of the end-game content. I will group up via our community OT and discord for raids and some challenging missions. There is a lot for you whichever of these types of play you prefer.

The social aspects of this game are where it truly shines though. Playing end-game missions and dungeons with a group of 3, or Raiding with 5 other guardians is unlike any other type of raid type experience I've had. No other FPS/shooter game of this type does it quite as well.

Our community is friendly, helpful, and knowledgable. It supports people who play every day and people who only have an hour here and there. We have sherpas in our discord - guardians whose role it is to help new and old players alike, and if you ask for help we will try our best to accommodate you.

Destiny is a messy game. Destiny does a bad job of onboarding players. BUT Destiny also offers some of the most fun, memorable, and rewarding content available today.

Join us in the OT: https://www.resetera.com/threads/destiny-2-shadowkeep-ot-moons-haunted.143094/
PM Ruthless for an invite to the discord.
 

astro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,287
well i jumped back in with shadowkeep, ive played 55 hours and finished shadowkeep story done pretty much every game type but a raid, and done all the weekly challenges and everything. in all this time so far ive not had one exotic engram or exotic drop. really starting to feel like the game is very anti loot in a way considering there is an exotic vendor who sells 4 exotics and changes every friday.

i could have technically not played this whole time and just log in every friday and buy exotics.
Sounds like bad luck, I've had a good amount of exotics drop in the same time frame.... like 4 catalysts and around 6 exotics. RNG can be cruel.

Exotics are not the only thing to work toward though, you have plenty to do besides them. They are the icing on the cake and not even a requirement.

You also have access to a TONNE of exotic quests that reward a guaranteed exotic item, which you can be working on any time you play.
 

CrudeDiatribe

Member
Oct 25, 2017
897
Eastern Canada
It sounds like things have changed in a positive way, but as someone who only owns base Destiny 2 digitally, how do I even go about getting back into it now? Do I grab the F2P version? Do I re-download what I already have?
If you have it on a console, just install/update it and fire it up. If you had it on PC then you'll need to migrate your account to Steam, which you do via Bungie's website. Then install it via Steam and fire it up.
 

astro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,287
Why not? generally speaking, people are terrible at discerning what they want from what they need/whats good for them. If they weren't this matchmaking discussion wouldn't exist.
I agree that many people do not know what they're asking for with raid MM, truly. Or rather, what they're asking for couldn't exist without neutering the raid, and we already have those kinds of raid-lite activities in Menagerie and Offensive.
 
Oct 27, 2017
2,689
well i jumped back in with shadowkeep, ive played 55 hours and finished shadowkeep story done pretty much every game type but a raid, and done all the weekly challenges and everything. in all this time so far ive not had one exotic engram or exotic drop. really starting to feel like the game is very anti loot in a way considering there is an exotic vendor who sells 4 exotics and changes every friday.

i could have technically not played this whole time and just log in every friday and buy exotics.
The game is definitely anti-exotic loot. But I wouldn't say it's really anti loot anymore. Newer activities shower you in legendary loot now. It wasnt like that before.
 

astro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,287
The game is definitely anti-exotic loot. But I wouldn't say it's really anti loot anymore. Newer activities shower you in legendary loot now. It wasnt like that before.
It's not anti-exotic loot at all.

There are a lot of exotic quests that reward you with a guaranteed exotic.
Xur sells 4 items and an engram every week.
There are exotics in the seasons pass.
And there are random drops.

The quests contain most of the best ones, too.
 

Legacy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,075
I do, there's a reason the game is doing so well and that the Destiny Era community is one of the largest on the site.
Was simply stating my opinion bub, if you disagree, that’s up to you but I stand by why I said and some of my friends (who played D2 far longer than I did) who also feel the same.
 

Wreck We Em

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
563
Why does Destiny being in a good place bother so many people.

Is Shadowkeep better than Forsaken? That's subjective but I'd say no

Is Destiny 2 better now that Shadowkeep has released? 100% without a doubt. That's all the article is saying really
 
OP
OP
Strakt

Strakt

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,163
Why does Destiny being in a good place bother so many people.

Is Shadowkeep better than Forsaken? That's subjective but I'd say no

Is Destiny 2 better now that Shadowkeep has released? 100% without a doubt. That's all the article is saying really
Because on this forum .. a majority of people only like seeing the bad in things that are good
 

Faenix1

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,203
Canada
Does Bungie have any plans to, like, "fix" the earlier campaigns? Everyone I talk to about it makes it sound.. pretty meh for a new player.

(For the record, I got Destiny 2 via PS+ - and then I later bought Forsaken Complete *before price drop*. So I'm not some free player bitching. Never started playing, but I was planning to after Borderlands 3 (Warframe addiction hit me hard. lol.)
 

Decarb

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,671
I hope they do raid MM. I'd pay money to Twitch players who play it that way just to see the clusterfuck. Watching the new raid being played with 5 randoms found by Bungie's legendary matchmaking would be an experience.
 
Oct 27, 2017
2,689
It's not anti-exotic loot at all.

There are a lot of exotic quests that reward you with a guaranteed exotic.
Xur sells 4 items and an engram every week.
There are exotics in the seasons pass.
And there are random drops.

The quests contain most of the best ones, too.
Anti exotic RNG is probably a better phrase. They don't drop in Shadowkeep like they used to
 

Critch

Member
Dec 10, 2017
716
Raid matchmaking is like Easy Mode in Dark Souls. The people that would never ever use it are the ones that are the most vocal against it.
 

Van Bur3n

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
13,092
Does Bungie have any plans to, like, "fix" the earlier campaigns? Everyone I talk to about it makes it sound.. pretty meh for a new player.

(For the record, I got Destiny 2 via PS+ - and then I later bought Forsaken Complete *before price drop*. So I'm not some free player bitching. Never started playing, but I was planning to after Borderlands 3 (Warframe addiction hit me hard. lol.)
Those campaigns are garbage and everyone has moved on from them. They shall be ignored as they should be.