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Ewaan

Member
May 29, 2020
3,578
Motherwell, Scotland
A Crack in the Slab (Dishonoured 2) and Effect and Cause (Titanfall 2) both make far more impressive, and crucially gameplay affecting, instant level transitions than anything in Rift Apart.

Rift Apart does next to nothing with the dimension hopping in terms of actual mechanics, and it mostly happens at prescribed times and in prescribed places.

Timepiece_Shift.gif
da65w7g-45f90da3-e630-4ca4-9726-1a316cb6c1a6.gif

A Crack in the Slab is an entire mansion with two versions that you can flip back and forth between at any time to solve puzzles or evade guards.

On top of that you have a constantly visible "window" into the other world. In fact it's almost like both worlds are running at the same time, as though they are both kept in RAM, but if that were possible... you wouldn't even need to load anything in from some magically fast storage device when switching! Wild!


vbk2rmocwi88chfgjxxv.gif
rfmwikdsajbxaaex3kfr.gif

Effect and Cause similarly has two versions of the level that you can swap between at any time and with actual systemic effects on gameplay.

Can't imagine how they managed all that before the PS5 came out, real wizards over at Respawn and Arkane.

There's no need to be condescending mate, I understand how computer architecture works. Obvious concessions were made for your examples, poor graphical fidelity for that period of time to allow double levels to be loaded to RAM, smaller spaces to hide the double world loaded into RAM etc. It's impressive for the period undoubtedly, clever design. But the way that gif works, where it loads and entire world of that size, graphical fidelity and visibly dense detail in and out without any sort of pop in would certainly not be possible in the past - it's far more impressive.
 

nekkid

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
21,823
Considering it ran on a much slower, non-compliant SSD with barely a discernible difference in performance, you've got to believe it was talked up for marketing reasons.
 

Equanimity

Member
Oct 27, 2017
14,992
London
Thread is full of armchair folks trying to downplay a cool mechanic powered by current gen hardware.
A Crack in the Slab (Dishonoured 2) and Effect and Cause (Titanfall 2) both make far more impressive, and crucially gameplay affecting, instant level transitions than anything in Rift Apart.

Rift Apart does next to nothing with the dimension hopping in terms of actual mechanics, and it mostly happens at prescribed times and in prescribed places.

Timepiece_Shift.gif
da65w7g-45f90da3-e630-4ca4-9726-1a316cb6c1a6.gif

A Crack in the Slab is an entire mansion with two versions that you can flip back and forth between at any time to solve puzzles or evade guards.

On top of that you have a constantly visible "window" into the other world. In fact it's almost like both worlds are running at the same time, as though they are both kept in RAM, but if that were possible... you wouldn't even need to load anything in from some magically fast storage device when switching! Wild!


vbk2rmocwi88chfgjxxv.gif
rfmwikdsajbxaaex3kfr.gif

Effect and Cause similarly has two versions of the level that you can swap between at any time and with actual systemic effects on gameplay.

Can't imagine how they managed all that before the PS5 came out, real wizards over at Respawn and Arkane.
Just wondering how someone can think that an ever so slight shift in assets in one location is far more impressive than loading in a completely new level almost instantaneously.
 

IIFloodyII

Member
Oct 26, 2017
23,979
It's ALL smoke and mirrors.
it's just that in some cases you can see the wires while the better wizards hide them well.
I find it a bit weird to claim that this could only be done on ps5 as it kinds of imply that the bigger factor is the ps5 adnd not Insomniac engineers.
Because Rift Apart is not using all the smoke and mirrors is why it can only be done on PS5 (or more accurately a really good SSD or a shit load of ram). They can use other techniques to get similar effects of course, but there's a reason those techniques where only used in short levels built around the idea last gen, not an entire game, it's a massive amount of effort to pull the trick off on the old consoles.
 
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Uzupedro

Banned
May 16, 2020
12,234
Rio de Janeiro
It's almost impressive how we are reaching a year since the release of the next-gen consoles, and over a year since both were presented in details(specs etc), and we still have the same trolling on how PS5's SSD and/or how it's used by first parties isn't ~that~ impressive.
 

DieH@rd

Member
Oct 26, 2017
10,569
In DF interview, dev has said that portals lead to loading of entire levels. They did it that way so that level designers could set up portals however they wanted, without the need to contact engine devs or to check if their particular sequence is technically feasible. They went all in and just created full portals to other levels.

Many games keep more than one instance of the world loaded in memory [parallel dimensions like in PS1 game Soul Reaver, and in recent times The Medium, and Titanfall 2], but that's not the approach that Insomniac took.
 

terawatt

Member
Oct 27, 2017
336
Considering it ran on a much slower, non-compliant SSD with barely a discernible difference in performance, you've got to believe it was talked up for marketing reasons.

You would have to ignore the Ps5's IO complex thinking like that, the overall speed of the drive is just one part of the equation.
 

the-pi-guy

Member
Oct 29, 2017
6,276
You can certainly do a lot of this stuff by reusing lots of textures, objects, etc.
Or by reducing quality so that everything can fit into RAM.

The point of the SSD is to be able to do all of this without having to make compromises.
Doesn't mean you couldn't have made compromises and have done it without an SSD.
 

arsene_P5

Prophet of Regret
Member
Apr 17, 2020
15,438
It's almost impressive how we are reaching a year since the release of the next-gen consoles, and over a year since both were presented in details(specs etc), and we still have the same trolling on how PS5's SSD and/or how it's used by first parties isn't ~that~ impressive.
Thread is full of armchair folks trying to downplay a cool mechanic powered by current gen hardware

I think you two are completely misunderstanding most of the post in this thread. The SSD are impressive and it's great we now got consoles with them. Ratchet is impressive and Insomniac deserve all the praise.

However the technique would be possible, if there would be enough RAM. The SSD is only there to quickly push a massive amount of data into RAM. And the latter two words are crucial... INTO RAM. So what if everything was in RAM already? Meaning the data before the rifts and after the rifts... then yes, those rifts would be possible without a SSD, because no data would be needed to be streamed INTO RAM during those transitions. That's the whole point of the developer in OP.

Obviously having so much RAM is super expensive and not feasible in a consumer product. But if we ignore that, then yes such techniques are technically possible. And please don't read this as something to take away from the accomplishments of Insomniac or the SSD.
 

PiranhaMan

Member
Apr 26, 2020
977
I think you two are completely misunderstanding most of the post in this thread. The SSD are impressive and it's great we now got consoles with them. Ratchet is impressive and Insomniac deserve all the praise.

However the technique would be possible, if there would be enough RAM. The SSD is only there to quickly push a massive amount of data into RAM. And the latter two words are crucial... INTO RAM. So what if everything was in RAM already? Meaning the data before the rifts and after the rifts... then yes, those rifts would be possible without a SSD, because no data would be needed to be streamed INTO RAM during those transitions. That's the whole point of the developer in OP.

Obviously having so much RAM is super expensive and not feasible in a consumer product. But if we ignore that, then yes such techniques are technically possible. And please don't read this as something to take away from the accomplishments of Insomniac or the PS5 SSD.
Well I guess if having enough RAM would make it possible....Then it would not have been possible on the PS3.
 

jroc74

Member
Oct 27, 2017
28,996
The GDC talk for Rift Apart is gonna be something.....

I cannot wait for that. Or has it happened already....
 

Deleted member 93062

Account closed at user request
Banned
Mar 4, 2021
24,767
Well I guess if having enough RAM would make it possible....Then it would not have been possible on the PS3.
The developer in OP isn't saying you need a lot more RAM. He specifically says that pocket dimensions in Ratchet are relatively small levels that share a lot of assets with each other. Like crates and the like. All of these are just saved in RAM and aren't being streamed in.
 

jroc74

Member
Oct 27, 2017
28,996
Well I guess if having enough RAM would make it possible....Then it would not have been possible on the PS3.
Naw, just needed Sony to push a firmware update to download GB's of ram for the PS3.

Problem solved.

That we ....still...have ppl just handwaving away the actual specs of older consoles...is truly amazing.

TIL mechanical hard drives could stream GB's of data at ease, with no problems.

Seems Sony and MS both failed spectacularly for making NVMe's the baseline in these consoles. They shoulda just stuck with mechanical hard drives.
 

Equanimity

Member
Oct 27, 2017
14,992
London
I think you two are completely misunderstanding most of the post in this thread. The SSD are impressive and it's great we now got consoles with them. Ratchet is impressive and Insomniac deserve all the praise.

However the technique would be possible, if there would be enough RAM. The SSD is only there to quickly push a massive amount of data into RAM. And the latter two words are crucial... INTO RAM. So what if everything was in RAM already? Meaning the data before the rifts and after the rifts... then yes, those rifts would be possible without a SSD, because no data would be needed to be streamed INTO RAM during those transitions. That's the whole point of the developer in OP.

Obviously having so much RAM is super expensive and not feasible in a consumer product. But if we ignore that, then yes such techniques are technically possible. And please don't read this as something to take away from the accomplishments of Insomniac or the SSD.
I usually agree with your explanation but not in this case, unfortunately. The entire premise of this thread is flawed. It wasn't possible on the seventh generation of consoles because of hardware constraints.
 

Kaguya

Member
Jun 19, 2018
6,408
Ask yourself why these kinds of tricks were never attempted or pulled off on older hardware.
The thing he's talking about was done in Titanfalls 2, and works great and instantantly. It only work when you can fit both environments into the memory at the same time though, limiting what you can do in those levels and wouldn't work between vastly different areas graphicly unless you downgrade everything to fit all the environments in at the same time. It's also a data management nightmare for developers and can't be used to mask regular teleportation loading time in a none scripted section.

Titanfalls 2 implementation:
 

arsene_P5

Prophet of Regret
Member
Apr 17, 2020
15,438
Well I guess if having enough RAM would make it possible....Then it would not have been possible on the PS3.
Well... Yes and no. Ratchet Rift Apart at the graphics fidelity it's shooting for would need significantly more RAM than the PS5 with a ultra fast SSD has. But the concept of loading more levels into RAM instead of streaming them in would in theory also work on PS3. It just would look incredible poor compared to other PS3 games like Uncharted 3. Because it would have much less RAM for one level than Uncharted.

Naw, just needed Sony to push a firmware update to download GB's of ram for the PS3.



Problem solved.



That we ....still...have ppl just handwaving away the actual specs of older console...is truly amazing.
You missed the point. You can always read the other response in this post.
 

PiranhaMan

Member
Apr 26, 2020
977
The developer in OP isn't saying you need a lot more RAM. He specifically says that pocket dimensions in Ratchet are relatively small levels that share a lot of assets with each other. Like crates and the like. All of these are just saved in RAM and aren't being streamed in.
But how large are these assests? Because if they are very larger than what the PS3 has in available ram, it would not have been possible for the PS3 to do what is being done in Ratchet and Clank.
 

Deleted member 93062

Account closed at user request
Banned
Mar 4, 2021
24,767
But how large are these assests? Because if they are very larger than what the PS3 has in available ram, it would not have been possible for the PS3 to do what is being done in Ratchet and Clank.
Well, it would scale with the system.. Of course the assets will be larger for a game targeting 4K. But Insomniac (at first) didn't say that "rifting is possible on older systems but with lower graphics and lower quality assets" they said "rifting is only possible due to SSD on the PS5". This is what is being disputed.
 

jroc74

Member
Oct 27, 2017
28,996
Well... Yes and no. Ratchet Rift Apart at the graphics fidelity it's shooting for would need significantly more RAM than the PS5 with a ultra fast SSD has. But the concept of loading more levels into RAM instead of streaming would in theory also work on PS3. It just would look incredible poor compared to other PS3 games like Uncharted 3. Because it would have much less RAM for one level.

You missed the point. You can always read the other response in this post.
I think you are directing the 'missing the point' to the wrong group....
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,535
The rifts in ratchet aren't that interesting from a gameplay perspective, sure. So it makes sense that the basics could be done before. It's more the combination of rifts, visual fidelity/diversity, and environment size.

But if you wanna talk about how the use of rifts was lacking then I'm here for it lol.
 

MrFox

VFX Rendering Pipeline Developer
Verified
Jun 8, 2020
1,435
Anything becomes possible on any hardware when you move the goal post and completely misrepresent what R&C is actually doing.
 

IIFloodyII

Member
Oct 26, 2017
23,979
The developer in OP isn't saying you need a lot more RAM. He specifically says that pocket dimensions in Ratchet are relatively small levels that share a lot of assets with each other. Like crates and the like. All of these are just saved in RAM and aren't being streamed in.
Even that's not a particular good point as Rift Apart has instances where it'll throw to quite a few drastically different levels, no console has anywhere near enough ram to do it like that as it's very inefficient and hard to do.
 

bes.gen

Member
Nov 24, 2017
3,354
On top of that you have a constantly visible "window" into the other world. In fact it's almost like both worlds are running at the same time, as though they are both kept in RAM, but if that were possible... you wouldn't even need to load anything in from some magically fast storage device when switching! Wild!

Effect and Cause similarly has two versions of the level that you can swap between at any time and with actual systemic effects on gameplay.

Can't imagine how they managed all that before the PS5 came out, real wizards over at Respawn and Arkane.

because they are in ram the whole time lol.
basically wasting it for the trick.
can't imagine, thinking this is some sort of a gotcha.
 

inner-G

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
14,473
PNW
Obviously

But it was funny seeing all the posts saying a pc or Xbox couldn't do that because they didn't have the magical kind of SSD the ps5 does.
 

jroc74

Member
Oct 27, 2017
28,996
Anything becomes possible on any hardware when you move the goal post and completely misrepresent what R&C is actually doing.
Thank you for chiming in.
Even that's not a particular good point as Rift Apart has instances where it'll throw to quite a few drastically different levels, no console has anywhere near enough ram to do it like that as it's very inefficient and hard to do.

Just download more ram. Simple.
Obviously

But it was funny seeing all the posts saying a pc or Xbox couldn't do that because they didn't have the magical kind of SSD the ps5 does.
Obviously.

🙄
 

SoSchwifty

Member
Jan 3, 2020
84
I mean, it's probably the case that it couldn't be done at the same level of fidelity, at the same frame rate etc. Everything is achievable on almost any hardware, it's just that everything also comes at a cost, and balancing that cost.

Like, you could do this and much more if your assets had an extremely low cost in ram. But that affects asset fidelity. Destiny for instance, which is a game which regularly uses corridors to transition players between areas, wouldn't need to feature that style of design, if it had much lower resolution and polycounts on its assets. But it's targetting a specific look and performance, and therefore it has to be designed the way it is.

At that point tho it is like any other next gen game with just upgraded graphics. The point is the gameplay isnt something that could only be done with the PS5 SSD which is what ppl were saying...

Ppl acted like it was revolutionary and it wasn't...

Which after this post and Insomniac devs walking it back shows it was just marketing speak pretty much.
 
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mael

Avenger
Nov 3, 2017
16,812
Because Rift Apart is not using all the smoke and mirrors is why it can only be done on PS5 (or more accurately a SSD). They can use other techniques to get similar effects of course, but there's a reason those techniques where only used in short levels built around the idea last gen, not an entire game, it's a massive amount of effort to pull the trick off on the old consoles.
I mean that's like comparing how streaming tech was using around when ps2 was around.
The difference is in scope but then again a game that is entirely centered around that concept could most likely be done on older hardware using their generation level of assets.

It's profoundly uninteresting to claim that this is only possible with this level of detail on this hardware like it's something special.
I'm pretty sure a dedicated team could pull off the trick on the new xbox, now if it was going to be more or less work is entirely a discussion that's worth having but utterly uninteresting for the player.
 

Deleted member 93062

Account closed at user request
Banned
Mar 4, 2021
24,767
Anything becomes possible on any hardware when you move the goal post and completely misrepresent what R&C is actually doing.
Isn't moving the goal post when you say something is only possible on PS5 and then when later ask saying its only possible with the same graphical fidelity? Like it was obviously marketing BS to say "rifting is only possible due to PS5's SSD" and then later say "rifting with our graphical fidelity is only possible due to PS5's SSD".
 

PiranhaMan

Member
Apr 26, 2020
977
The developer in OP isn't saying you need a lot more RAM. He specifically says that pocket dimensions in Ratchet are relatively small levels that share a lot of assets with each other. Like crates and the like. All of these are just saved in RAM and aren't being streamed in.
Games on the PS3 were still GB's worth of data. How would that have worked if the RAM was just 512mb (or 256mb? cant remember)? The HDD in the PS3 had to keep many copies of the assets on different parts of the drive so that the PS3 can read what was needed. You do not need to do that with an SSD which allows the console to nearly instantly read what was needed at anytime so that the RAM can have it loaded, which is what the PS5 does.
 

arsene_P5

Prophet of Regret
Member
Apr 17, 2020
15,438
Even that's not a particular good point as Rift Apart has instances where it'll throw to quite a few drastically different levels, no console has anywhere near enough ram to do it like that as it's very inefficient and hard to do.
That's basically it and why SSD are so good. They improve RAM usage massively and are cheap to begin with (compared to RAM).
 

blackboxme

Member
Sep 30, 2019
31
I mean that's like comparing how streaming tech was using around when ps2 was around.
The difference is in scope but then again a game that is entirely centered around that concept could most likely be done on older hardware using their generation level of assets.

It's profoundly uninteresting to claim that this is only possible with this level of detail on this hardware like it's something special.
I'm pretty sure a dedicated team could pull off the trick on the new xbox, now if it was going to be more or less work is entirely a discussion that's worth having but utterly uninteresting for the player.

One interesting aspect of it, is that Rift Apart came out so soon after launch. Ok, anything is possible with infinite effort. But this was created very quickly using Insomniac's existing engine and pipeline. Without crunch, I believe. Ease of development from increased power is a good thing! Gets us good games faster and more frequently, without workplace abuse or burning out brilliant people,
 

Izzard

Banned
Sep 21, 2018
4,606
Well, it would scale with the system.. Of course the assets will be larger for a game targeting 4K. But Insomniac (at first) didn't say that "rifting is possible on older systems but with lower graphics and lower quality assets" they said "rifting is only possible due to SSD on the PS5". This is what is being disputed.

I would imagine most people reading that would come to the obvious conclusion that they're talking about the game as it is, with the high level graphics and assets.
 

mael

Avenger
Nov 3, 2017
16,812
One interesting aspect of it, is that Rift Apart came out so soon after launch. Ok, anything is possible with infinite effort. But this was created very quickly using Insomniac's existing engine and pipeline. Without crunch, I believe. Ease of development from increased power is a good thing! Gets us good games faster and more frequently, without workplace abuse or burning out brilliant people,
Amen to that.
At the end of the day if advanced tools can mitigate poor management, it's good with no caveat.
 
Dec 21, 2020
5,066
Of course Ratchet could be done without a SSD with the asset quality dialed down, or with more memory.

But it's impressive precisely because PS5 has a pitiful 2x memory upgrade over previous gen. As the SSD can stream in the assets so quickly, a significant memory bump wasn't required.

And as for portals, well yeah of course there was a game that did those during the PS3 gen, but only different parts of the same area, can't remember what that game was called though.
While it has only 2 times the memory (16 vs 8), it has a little more than 2 times of the available memory to work with.

May not mean much, but it further contextualizes it imo
 

Apathy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,992
they're talking about streaming data and loading different sets of assets simultaneously into memory.

Their inflammatory wording, the extra inflammatory article, and many of the replies in this thread, are all missing context and largely embarrassing.

this whole thing is just a giant facepalm really.

insomniac are right that what they did cannot be done with traditional methods and hardware, the developer is right that the same effect can be achieved under different asset restrictions on different hardware, there is no gotcha here and these are not mutually exclusive concepts.

there are already games that exist on earlier generations that offer instantaneous scene switching which proves the developers point, you know how? They have to load the assets into memory simultaneously, which proves insomniacs claims.

Paz , I always love your posts. Thank you for bringing your expertise into this
 

arsene_P5

Prophet of Regret
Member
Apr 17, 2020
15,438
they're talking about streaming data and loading different sets of assets simultaneously into memory.

Their inflammatory wording, the extra inflammatory article, and many of the replies in this thread, are all missing context and largely embarrassing.

this whole thing is just a giant facepalm really.

insomniac are right that what they did cannot be done with traditional methods and hardware, the developer is right that the same effect can be achieved under different asset restrictions on different hardware, there is no gotcha here and these are not mutually exclusive concepts.

there are already games that exist on earlier generations that offer instantaneous scene switching which proves the developers point, you know how? They have to load the assets into memory simultaneously, which proves insomniacs claims.
No lies detected. The dev and insomniac aren't wrong.
 
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IIFloodyII

Member
Oct 26, 2017
23,979
I mean that's like comparing how streaming tech was using around when ps2 was around.
The difference is in scope but then again a game that is entirely centered around that concept could most likely be done on older hardware using their generation level of assets.

It's profoundly uninteresting to claim that this is only possible with this level of detail on this hardware like it's something special.
I'm pretty sure a dedicated team could pull off the trick on the new xbox, now if it was going to be more or less work is entirely a discussion that's worth having but utterly uninteresting for the player.
It would have been done, the concept is like puzzle game crack and Portal was a huge hit the gen before and played around a similar concept (though different technique), but all we got as far as I can tell was 2 levels trying it in the following gen, both of which took the teams huge amounts of effort to pull off, neither of which do it how Rift Apart does. It might technically be possible, but not realistically possible as no one will have the time to try and do it for a full game on the old consoles.

Of course a team can do it on the Series too, Rift Apart is the starting point, not the ending point of devs being able to just instant load entire new areas/worlds when designing your levels, that's what's special. We'll see how far it gets taken over the generation, not from the 1st game actually pulling it off.
 

McFly

Member
Nov 26, 2017
2,742
Isn't moving the goal post when you say something is only possible on PS5 and then when later ask saying its only possible with the same graphical fidelity? Like it was obviously marketing BS to say "rifting is only possible due to PS5's SSD" and then later say "rifting with our graphical fidelity is only possible due to PS5's SSD".
What Rift Apart is doing isn't possible on last gen is a factual statement. It is all in the context of a next generation hardware enabling moving massive amount of data. It doesn't need any clarifying as you can't do that on a 50MB/s HDD. You can achieve the same effect by reducing the scope and having both world loaded in RAM simultaneously.

Its no different from saying doing realtime raytracing isn't possible on last gen in the context of current gen hardware having hardware accelerated raytracing. Obviously you can do realtime raytracing on PS3 again if you reduce the scope of what you are doing.
 

boomtrick

Banned
Jun 30, 2021
787
The pocket dimensions are pretty standard portal stuff, probably not too different from what Prey did on the 360. Those big shifts are the bigger question

EDk80g6.gif

based on the digital foundry video they practically throw everything away and reload just by using one of those short distance portals.

anyone saying thats possible to do the same thing with the complexity and quality that ratchet is doing on a ps3 is lying out their ass.
 

Acquiescence

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
10,257
Lake Titicaca
insomniac are right that what they did cannot be done with traditional methods and hardware, the developer is right that the same effect can be achieved under different asset restrictions on different hardware, there is no gotcha here and these are not mutually exclusive concepts.

There absolutely is a gotcha - Traveller's Tales gave the world Muppet RaceMania and Insomniac didn't.