You understand tools, but it's a matter of how mature they are. It's been said a few times now that the PS5 dev tools are similar to PS4, while Xbox Series X/S are brand new for this generation, and came in late.
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VGTech: Call of Duty Black Ops Cold War PS5 vs Xbox Series X|S Frame Rate Comparison
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Keep in mind that is the Microsoft centric narrative. The narrative from the Sony camp (eg their engineers on social media etc) is that the PS5 doesn't use certain features because it uses custom stuff, or as one of their engineers put it, features that aren't part of any RDNA architecture at present, and might in future be part of RDNA3 or further.
Sony has (as of the last few generations) been relatively tight lipped about its custom API and subsequent features outside of discussing AMD specific stuff or using predominantly AMD terminology (perhaps due to marketing obligations to AMD, who knows), whereas Microsoft has always been super vocal about theirs, advertising every little feature and even creating entire glossaries for all the different terms.
All we have on the Sony front is a huge number of patents about different API features and tools, none of which they've officially talked about, and perhaps never will.
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Yes of course, but no game does that. If it's targeting 60 it might drop to the mid 50s sometimes. Without VRR you will either get stuttering or tearing when that happens because the display is out of sync with the frame rate. VRR fixes that problem.
Some of these comments are embarrassing. MS tools are apparently late and less mature, so I expect XSX games will improve. That said, Sony's tools will improve as well. Maybe not as much so, but regardless, I expect the differences in MP games to be negligible as most expected.
I guessed before launch that PS5 would probably have better looking/performing games the first couple of years based off the high praise it was getting by devs about it being super easy to develop for. I do think Xbox will eventually show off it's power advantage when devs get more familiar(especially 1st party)
At the end of the day tho, these consoles are super close in power so that is a win for us. It will come down to ecosystems, features(like the dual sense) and services like gamepass for most consumers.
At the end of the day tho, these consoles are super close in power so that is a win for us. It will come down to ecosystems, features(like the dual sense) and services like gamepass for most consumers.
Precisely that, I don't think we'll see much of a difference between both the PS5 and XSX with 3rd party games. Where both will shine is in their 1st party games.
The answer here is actually pretty easy in relation to Microsoft and Sony. Sony only needs tools for the Playstation family. Anything from the full RDNA toolset that isn't in their product, they can create a bespoke version of it or simply go without. Microsoft can not due to their need to have alignment with PC. Direct X and many other things should be in alignment with all platforms. Not everyone is following the nerd stuff but this kind of information was out there as late as July
The Latest on Xbox Game Core - Thurrott.com
Microsoft's latest Game Core update brings it closer to release as the company prepares for its next-generation Xbox launch.
www.thurrott.com
Or like Dictator has speculated on B3D
Ultimately, it is premature to judge these consoles now as Microsoft is late to the party with their tools being in order. However, there is more than 17% greater TF difference at work here if the feature set is more robust in Microsoft's console. I do believe those technologies will show their purpose as this generation carries on.
lol
This is the place that had people saying they'd boycott any multiplat Xbox One X game that ran at the same settings as the PS4 Pro version.
So no, there's definitely a certain segment of users here that absolutely don't want parity.
The Latest on Xbox Game Core - Thurrott.com
Microsoft's latest Game Core update brings it closer to release as the company prepares for its next-generation Xbox launch.
Or like Dictator has speculated on B3D
Thanks for the info and links. That is interesting information.
GDK/gamecore was introduced in 2019. It's easily more mature than anything xbox consoles launched with in the past 3 gens. Of course, there's always improvements going to be coming all the way up to launch, but that goes for all consoles, ps5 quite clearly has stuff coming in hot as well.
This one is better as it actually is speculative. Problem is its speculation based on nothing material though.
Eg. 17% delta was something that has no need of exploiting exclusive hw features. Arguing to look for special sauce as an explanation of missing paper targets isn't really making much sense.
Secondary part is that similar speculation exists for PS5 gpu features that negate/supercede some of that list as well (VRS and geo shaders in particular). But of course we have no actual info on that either.
Could've any number of reasons. I remember there was an embarrassing PS5 thread a while ago that had gotten pretty fanboytastic. It made Era look really bad. I wouldn't be surprised if Dark1x took a break for mental health reasons or he could be busy with work. Either way, I'd stay away from Era right now, and judging by this thread, I don't blame him.
There are not a lot of technical people here, but there are a lot of wannabes just to push the narrative of their preferred platform.
Digital Foundry - Ion Fury - Every Console Tested - How An Ancient Engine Stresses Current-Gen CPUs
Ion Fury pushes the ancient Build engine - powering classics like Duke Nukem 3D - to its very limits, but fundamentally, how difficult can a port to current-gen consoles be? The answer turns out to be more complex than you might think. John Linnemans checks out the PS4, Xbox One and Switch...
www.resetera.com
This should be quoted in upcoming similar threads until clear difference in performance appears.
I'm a dev and understand tools. I'm also a gamer and as a gamer, why should I care if Microsoft's tools came in late and are immature? I'm supposed to be getting the most powerful console experience according to all the marketing I've seen. Why aren't I?
Your understanding of tools and development should answer your questions. I seriously can't believe a fellow developer would type this. You being a gamer doesn't erase your development experience so you should understand why. You are not an average consumer.
Lol what the? You are a dev that understands tools and then proceeds to show that you don't understand with your next sentence. Nice
Spoken like a developer who can't change their mindset beyond technical concerns. Customers shouldn't have to worry about the state of tools. Microsoft decided to market this as the most powerful experience available. Where is the experience that validates that claim? Shouldn't I as a customer expect that I'm getting what I was promised?
I literally worked on developer tools for many years. If I delivered tools that held back a shipping product and impacted the customer experience, I would not keep my job for long. Customers shouldn't have to care about any of this and they should be free to judge based on what is currently shipping.
I would be interested in hearing more about their changes and what Cerny has worked out with AMD. But it's clear to me that those are unlikely to be RDNA3 or RDNA4 features based on the comments Cerny made during the deep dive. I don't think a official Sony staff member has talked about RDNA3 and beyond either.
You know I'll happily eat crow and it's clear to be Cerny made some smart decision and custom changes like the cache scrubbers, but all those RDNA3 stuff are just rumors and in my opinion contradict what Cerny said in his deep dive at around 25 minute mark.
"If you see a similar discrete GPU available as a PC card at roughly the same time as we release your console, that means our collaboration with AMD succeeded in technology being useful in both worlds."
M take on all of this based on the deep dive comments is that Sony made changes that are specific to the needs for PS and those will perhabs never come to RDNA. These changes like chache scrubbers are cool and I won't downplay them. But for what it's worth I don't think there are RDNA3 feature. They are simply custom features, some are now trying to list as RDNA3 features.
To be honest I don't even think it matters for the performance, if those are only for PS or part of RDNA3/4. It's just a name in the end and what matters is wether those specific features are in the consoles or not, because that determines the performance and not what architecture label these features are part of.
Btw watching the deep dive GPU section again Cerny talks about primitive shaders like a Epic developer did afterwards when talking about the UE5 demo. We know RDNA2 PC GPU use mesh shaders (more advanced) and we know Xbox uses them. Thus this is likely one of those "full RDNA2" features.
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Everyone seems really hung up on the tools thing, which is a factor as I said, but the number one reason why these games run so similar is because these systems are incredibly close to each other in hardware performance.
It's not much more complicated than that. Tools will get better and devs will get more experience with the hardware, but there is never going to be a giant gulf between the SX and the PS5, or even one nearly as large as between the PS4 and One or Pro and X.
It's not much more complicated than that. Tools will get better and devs will get more experience with the hardware, but there is never going to be a giant gulf between the SX and the PS5, or even one nearly as large as between the PS4 and One or Pro and X.
The thing is, in the end it's not really important the reason why it runs better or not. It is probably indeed cause of less mature tools on XBSX.
But what matters is what the mainstream audience hears in the first months.
PS4 gained a ton of momentum and XBO could never recover cause it was more expensive and every comparison was adantaging the power difference for multiplatform games.
Hell, go back a little, PS3 was more expensive and gave a ton of room to X360, cause it had terrible tools and perf was not as good as it should have been for launch multiplat games.
It matters a lot.
You don't launch a console with immature dev tools. At least worst than your competitor. In an age of framerate and pixel counting wars, it can kill your chances.
Hopefully for Microsoft i think it's more about their business model than anything now i guess.
But what matters is what the mainstream audience hears in the first months.
PS4 gained a ton of momentum and XBO could never recover cause it was more expensive and every comparison was adantaging the power difference for multiplatform games.
Hell, go back a little, PS3 was more expensive and gave a ton of room to X360, cause it had terrible tools and perf was not as good as it should have been for launch multiplat games.
It matters a lot.
You don't launch a console with immature dev tools. At least worst than your competitor. In an age of framerate and pixel counting wars, it can kill your chances.
Hopefully for Microsoft i think it's more about their business model than anything now i guess.
I dont think thats the issue here.
The issue is why the Series X is running worse. Shouldn't be happening and is not a good look tbh, the start of the gen are where narratives are born... Just look at Twitter and Youtube comments. PS5 is winning the power war early.
Two weeks ago expectations were that, for sure, go for XsX for better multiplatform performance. And the PS5 would be so so in the BC department.
All that turned on its head.
All that turned on its head.
Didnt watch the full video. Great this gen is out to be great on all sides.
Are we getting any feedback on how it handles dualsense (if any use at all?)
Are we getting any feedback on how it handles dualsense (if any use at all?)
"Shouldn't be happening" based on...?
The PS5 has a number of hardware advantages over the SX, its better dev environment besides. The problem with the elevation of TF performance as the end all be all of judging hardware is that it doesn't nearly tell the whole story.
The SX does have a modest pure TF advantage that will be better utilized over time, but it's not a blowout by any stretch of imagination. When you have systems as close as these two are, with each having their own positives and negatives, the "winner" of these head to heads won't always be the one with the TF lead.
I expect there to be some PS5 games that match or outperform their SX versions for years to come. Ultimately though games are going to be in general pretty even throughout this gen, and that's a good thing.
User Banned (2 Weeks): Platform wars and history of past similar behavior
def gonna be revisiting a lot of this thread when the next round of multiplats come out
Alright so lol, the xbox is weaker, got it
Im sorry this isn't directed at you because I get what you mean but if people need to win a "power war" for like 5 FPS is select scenes, they really need to step outside for a little. It would be impossible to even see without throwing it through some tools. God I hate console wars
I've been doing this for a long time, and of course, I can't turn it off. I've worked on generations of implementing GPU features, and it seems like it gets harder each time due to technological advancements. Building on an already stable foundation makes it easy, but it creates a domino effect from top to bottom when the underlying architecture changes. Should customers suffer, the right answer is no, but given the nature of the beast, things like this will happen.
have both next-gen systems, so I am not making an excuse for Microsoft's supposed GPU advantage or Sony's supposed SSD speed advantage.
I mean, did it? We had been hearing for a while that the Xbox GDK was behind where the PS5 development kit was at. The differences look like a difference in maturity in software.
PS5 has:
- Better dev tools
- Several hardware advantages of XSX
- The I/O SSD capabilities
- Will have games that match or outperform their SX versions for years to come despite the XSX labeled as the "most powerful console"
XSX:
- TF advantage that is almost ALWAYS accompanied by a disclaimer that TF doesn't mean much, if anything (even in the very post above)
Not sure how else it's supposed to be interpreted? But sure, I'll wait for the GDK to "mature" and see where we are at in 1-3 years.
Frustrating because I just wanted one console to outperform the other clearly, made it so easy to know for a while there to always pick up the PS4 version (prior to 1x launch) of games instead of waiting for DF analysis and picking between different positives and negatives.
They're so close it's not really going to matter which you buy.
Is this why Series X performed better on DMCV 4K mode versus Performance mode where PS5 faired better (1080p)?
Seems the raw GPU advantage is better suited for high res. Am I correct in assuming that?
Again, DMCV is such a poor job on both consoles not sure it's even a good comparison to begin with.
Would make sense "fast and narrow" seems to deliver more on FR/120fps from what we've seen thus far?
How do you explain all that screen tearing on ACV? Again w/ CPU differences?
Does it really matter? They are super close. Do you really need the version that performs 1-2 frames better than the other which you obviously wouldn't have known if DF didn't tell you? You only have yourself to blame for being frustrated.
Lack of vsync? If you go back to X360 days, x360 multiplatform games usually have more tearing than PS3. I clearly remember AC, Lost Planet among many others having more tearing on X360.
Maybe MS isn't forcing vsync in thier dev kits.
This is not at all surprising.
These consoles are extremely close in power, and are ALSO taking some different approaches in architecture (wide and slow, fast and narrow). Because of this, the slightly more powerful console doing things one way will sometimes outperform the slightly weaker console that does things another way, and sometimes the opposite will be true, like in this game.
I'm sure there will be plenty of games that are ever so slightly better on PS5, and plenty that will be ever so slightly better on Series X. Absolutely ideal situation for gamers.
These consoles are extremely close in power, and are ALSO taking some different approaches in architecture (wide and slow, fast and narrow). Because of this, the slightly more powerful console doing things one way will sometimes outperform the slightly weaker console that does things another way, and sometimes the opposite will be true, like in this game.
I'm sure there will be plenty of games that are ever so slightly better on PS5, and plenty that will be ever so slightly better on Series X. Absolutely ideal situation for gamers.