Vice: "Fire Emblem Doesn't Just Need Gay Characters, It Needs Queer Life"

[Hours Left]

https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/...-just-need-gay-characters-it-needs-queer-life

Vice just posted an excellent article about the lack of quality queer options in Fire Emblem Three Houses, particularly the male options, and also goes through the failures of past FE games in regards to queer content.

I urge anyone who wants to know more about why the queer community is so upset to read this. I hope more media outlets start picking up on this as well.

Some key quotes, but I highly suggest reading the entire article.

Edelgard's dialogue—in fact, the text of all of the queer support dialogues—is 90% the same regardless of Byleth's gender with only a few (mostly inconsequential) lines of difference. Because that queer reading that hit me right in the gut emotionally has absolutely, positively no impact whatsoever on the actual story of Three Houses. It's not reflected in the game's world, its history, even the other characters closest to either Byleth or Edelgard. It's a lovely, touching moment, but that's all it is: a moment. And to quote Into the Woods, "Life is made of moments, even now and then a bad one, but if life were only moments, then you'd never know you had one."

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Fire Emblem is a series that has a complicated history indeed with queerness. Over its history, it's done very little in terms of inclusion on that front. Taking a look at the LGBTQ Game Archive's and Queerly Represent Me's pages for Fire Emblem as a series shows that the queerness seen and experienced in these games is often found more in player queering and interpretation than explicit inclusion.

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Just like in Three Houses, the actual text for the supports in Fates is the same regardless of Corrin's gender, so it's difficult to consider either option particularly explicit in terms of queerness. Never mind that there is a significant mechanical cost from either option in the form of missing playable units: Like Awakening, romantic supports in Fates between a man and a woman result in "child" units recruitable later, but a queer Corrin in a same-gender relationship doesn't have their child, Kana (and Niles doesn't father his child Nina, either).

It's not necessarily that copy/pasting Kana or Nina into a queer Corrin's game, complete with their attached child, is the better option. What's important is that no opposite-gender pairing has what effectively amounts to a queer tax in terms of playable units, though, making this another marker of how "off to the side" the same-gender options can feel. The result is… well. "Your choices matter, and your main character is designed by you, but just remember that if you choose to be queer your options are severely limited, there's no real story impact, and you're giving up minimum one playable unit in a game with permadeath" is a hell of a thing.

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Comparatively, for men, Alois and Gilbert (two-thirds of the options!) are middle aged knights with existing families. And well… hoo boy. I've heard complaints about two of the S rank m/m options being "old men" compared to the third, who is a more typically young pretty boy type, and to that I say: I am 40 years old and queer ageism is super real, so shut it. I admit that aesthetically, Gilbert and Alois aren't my type and I wasn't terribly excited by them, but that's not the problem.

The problem is that the supposed S-rank romantic supports with Gilbert and Alois—said older men—simply aren't romantic supports at all. In the process of building a relationship with them, you find out both of them are married to women and have children! Now, "married to a woman" does not automatically mean "heterosexual," but I think "is in a likely monogamous relationship with someone else that is also the parent of their child" is definitely not a good look for a romantic support partner. More to the point, their S-rank support conversations do not involve expressions of romantic love or anything of the sort. Instead, both Gilbert and Alois express something akin to "Best Bros" friendship, the Final Fantasy XV kind of emotional dude friendship.

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[brainchild]

He gets it.

 

[Poltergust]

When I was looking at a video that introduced all the students and gave a short backstory for each, my friend who overheard some of it came up to me and said half-jokingly "wow, this is one of the most heteronormative games I've ever seen."

I couldn't disagree. It felt almost off-putting. I'm glad this article goes in-depth about that.

 

[Deleted member 925]

I agree that instead of more queer options there should be queer life, but I don't expect Japanese developers or even Western developers to properly pull that off. I don't want pandering queer stores but legit stories that come from queer people, and sadly that sort of thing is almost nonexistent due to not many queer developers leading these games.

It's a tricky situation.

 

[Bit_Reactor]

I agree that instead of more queer options there should be queer life, but I don't expect Japanese developers or even Western developers to properly pull that off. I don't want pandering queer stores but legit stories that come from queer people, and sadly that sort of thing is almost nonexistent due to not many queer developers leading these games.

It's a tricky situation.

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I agree about it being tricky because to be honest minus a few dialogues in Mass Effect games can't even get straight relationships right half the time and most of it revolves around the quest for sex. So there's still a lot of room to grow in writing romance in RPGs in general. It seems majority of it is sucking up and filling a meter until the fade to black, and I want more of the after effects of a relationship.

I want to unlock dialogues, make characters speak to my character differently, possibly even judge me based on my choices in the game. These things would help deter the focus on the act of getting into a relationship being literally all there is to it, when there's so much after the act that could be delved into.

"I wish more games would have more relationships" is usually a bad take on forums, but I really want more games to go into it and make it a part of gameplay worth delving into versus a conquest.

This is also why I'm an advocate for player sexuality because no one should be able to play a power fantasy and not be able to go after the character they actually like. Unless the story is explicitly going into the sexual background of a character I believe you should be able to romance who you want because otherwise it's only a power fantasy for some, and not all.

 

[HotHamBoy]

You have to be willing to shut off some story avenues to every kind of player to open up new avenues to some players.

And i think you need people writing who know the queer experience personally.

 

[Khanimus]

I recommend also listening to Austin Walker's (early) thoughts from a week or two ago about the same thing.

https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/8xzwax/dang-fire-emblem-games-have-gotten-really-long

The conversation about queer relationships starts around 14:40.

 

[julia crawford]

Man... i think we could still say Waypoint to be honest, i mean we don't work there no one is going to get mad

 

[Zelas]

I agree that instead of more queer options there should be queer life, but I don't expect Japanese developers or even Western developers to properly pull that off. I don't want pandering queer stores but legit stories that come from queer people, and sadly that sort of thing is almost nonexistent due to not many queer developers leading these games.

It's a tricky situation.

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I'm sure there are qualified people who are willing to write for Nintendo. And I'm sure Nintendo can afford to pay them. There's no blocker for getting this right outside of apathy.

 

[Deleted member 925]

I recommend also listening to Austin Walker's (early) thoughts from a week or two ago about the same thing.

https://www.vice.com/en_us/article/8xzwax/dang-fire-emblem-games-have-gotten-really-long

The conversation about queer relationships starts around 14:40.

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And I think that's what will bother me more with FE, the heteronormative aspect of it. I haven't purchased the game and I wasn't as upset about the lack of male with male options, but listening to this podcast and understanding now how heteronormative the world is in this game is extremely off putting to me.

I'm not really going to blame the developers for this because it makes sense, a Japanese developer with straight people working on this game isn't going have a lot to say about the queer aspects of a world because it's not something they know. It just makes me realize that there are hardly any queer voices in this industry. I'm in my late 30s and I'm ready for that to come through and appeal to me in my games. But we still have this issue in a lot of media, right now it's a huge problem with anything Marvel or Star Wars. Even on TV there is very little that appeals to my queerness, except for Pose. That show is all me and I love Ryan Murphy for it.

 

[kirbyfan407]

I'm sure there are qualified people who are willing to write for Nintendo. And I'm sure Nintendo can afford to pay them. There's no blocker for getting this right outside of apathy.

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*doesn't live in Japan, speak Japanese, or consider himself qualified but raises hand anyway*

 

[Zelas]

*doesn't live in Japan, speak Japanese, or consider himself qualified but raises hand anyway*

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"Let's not and just say we tried."

 

[Hours Left]

NoA definitely has queer people on their staff, and I'm certain they could bring in additional help if required.

The trick is to get them to do it.

 

[Aadiboy]

NoA definitely has queer people on their staff, and I'm certain they could bring in additional help if required.

The trick is to get them to do it.

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I mean, this seems like something that needs to be implemented in the writing on the Japanese side of development.

 

[Nano-Nandy]

Is an issue with every game actually.
Is part of the reason I usually roll my eyes whenever some complain about lack of LGBQT representation.

Most basically just want it to be a switch. Were every character can be gay, bi, etc. depending in your main character. With nothing as part of the story, behavior, mannerisms, etc.

Like Cortez in Mass Effect 3. Despite some of the writing, was still better than Kaidan turning out as a "gay option" just because.

Some wanted Claude to be gay in FETH because he looks good, though admittedly he is quite flirty to both male and female Byleth, but that's because the dialogue was mostly generic towards Byleth. There's nothing about him
that makes for a good gay role/character outside that.

Better written LGBQT characters should be a bigger priority than representation, yet better written roles are even lacking when it comes to straight men (outside white straight male), much less women... baby steps, I guess by 2050. :p

 

[kirbyfan407]

NoA definitely has queer people on their staff, and I'm certain they could bring in additional help if required.

The trick is to get them to do it.

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Yeah, I don't think they have a shortage of queer or allied staff at NoA (though I'm not sure what things are like in the Treehouse in particular). The question I have would be what Aadiboy alluded to, which is what the Japanese staffing situation is like.

I'd be very curious what goes on in the writing rooms at Nintendo/Intelligent Systems when they talk about including queer content. Was Leon written the same way in the original Japanese version of Shadows of Valentia? If yes, what were those conversations like? Did the person who pushed for that work on Three Houses?

 

[NeonZ]

Note that Fates actually had different dialogue for the two homosexual pairings, but it was removed from the localization since that exclusive dialogue often made references to society seeing their relationship badly (and they still loving each other in spite of that). The localization seemingly attempted to remove all references to society in general being bigoted (also applicable to the issue of Forrest's feminine clothing).

That's probably why with Three Houses they just kept the text for both scenarios identical since they wanted to avoid touching on any sensitive gender issues again that might be seen as problematic by NoA.

 

[MidnightCowboy]

Do games need anything? What's up with this new trend of criticizing media for not lining up with personal desires? I've said it before, but it just seems so selfish to want things to cater to you. Yes, Fire Emblem (and the whole industry) can have better representation—I think it's lame that there are only 3 gay male options—but don't slam something just because it doesn't live up to some idealized notion of what an entertainment product should be. Support the ones that make you feel good and ignore the ones that don't (unless they are truly heinous, like that GamerGater's Xbox game). It basically feels like the ultimate version of identity as consumer. You people are more than what you consume!

I do agree that support dialogue being the same for both genders is dumb as fuck.

 

[Hours Left]

Do games need anything? What's up with this new trend of criticizing media for not lining up with personal desires? I've said it before, but it just seems so selfish to want things to cater to you. Yes, Fire Emblem (and the whole industry) can have better representation—I think it's lame that there are only 3 gay male options—but don't slam something just because it doesn't live up to some idealized notion of what an entertainment product should be. Support the ones that make you feel good and ignore the ones that don't (unless they are truly heinous, like that GamerGater's Xbox game). It basically feels like the ultimate version of identity as consumer. You people are more than what you consume!

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You should probably read the article this thread is about. If you did you'd know there is only one same sex male option, while the other two are swerve platonic supports.

Not to mention the past history of FE botching queer content.

 

[boy power]

Do games need anything? What's up with this new trend of criticizing media for not lining up with personal desires? I've said it before, but it just seems so selfish to want things to cater to you. Yes, Fire Emblem (and the whole industry) can have better representation—I think it's lame that there are only 3 gay male options—but don't slam something just because it doesn't live up to some idealized notion of what an entertainment product should be. Support the ones that make you feel good and ignore the ones that don't (unless they are truly heinous, like that GamerGater's Xbox game). It basically feels like the ultimate version of identity as consumer. You people are more than what you consume!

I do agree that support dialogue being the same for both genders is dumb as fuck.

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There is only one gay male option. The other two aren't romantic or gay.

It's easy to say that '' support the ones that make you feel good '' when not many products specifically go out of their way to make LGBT folk '' feel good '' lol.

 

[Fanto]

What's up with this new trend of criticizing media for not lining up with personal desires?

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Is this really a new thing? People criticize games on this forum 10,000 times a day for so many different things, usually relating to their personal desires for what they wanted or expected, but people say "Wouldn't it be nice if X game had better queer representation" and now it's a new thing?

 

[Fendajaz]

As a poc who plays a lot of jrpgs, I just take what i can when it comes to representation/diversity. I don't expect a Japanese game studio/company with traditional views to cater to minorities, or hold the same values the west does. I don't think it's going to change. Like shouting at a brick wall. Japan gonna Japan.

 

[Bobcat Fancy]

Also, really gotta emphasize how heavily the game/franchise lines up with straight male desires... Guy Byleth can date every recruitable woman in the game. People playing straight guy Byleths are not heavily mislead about their romantic options. It's true... Fates was hornier. This game is less horny than Fates. Nonetheless...

 

[Giudecca]

As a poc who plays a lot of jrpgs, I just take what i can when it comes to representation/diversity. I don't expect a Japanese game studio/company with traditional views to cater to minorities, or hold the same values the west does. I don't think it's going to change. Like shouting at a brick wall. Japan gonna Japan.

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Same. As a gay man, I think I'd rather devote my time and feedback to Western Devs making a concerned effort rather than waste it over getting mad at Japanese Devs for not doing more than the bare minimum. If they do more, then cool. Meanwhile, I'm looking forward to The Last of Us Part II, Cyberpunk, and the new Assassin's Creed games.

 

[data]

You have to be willing to shut off some story avenues to every kind of player to open up new avenues to some players.

And i think you need people writing who know the queer experience personally.

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This.

Adding queer experience with people who don't know how to write it is a bad idea.

 

[birdinsky]

As a poc who plays a lot of jrpgs, I just take what i can when it comes to representation/diversity. I don't expect a Japanese game studio/company with traditional views to cater to minorities, or hold the same values the west does. I don't think it's going to change. Like shouting at a brick wall. Japan gonna Japan.

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As a queer east Asian woman, I do understand that east Asia gonna east Asia, believe me, but that doesn't mean we can't talk about it, you know? I'm honestly okay with there being fewer options - I don't need everyone to be bi. And having played FE3H and loved it, it was better than I was expecting with regard to queerness, tbh (although that's more a sign of my expectations being super low).

But still. The article makes good points, and bitching at Nintendo has resulted in what little progress we've had, from more LGBT inclusion to diverse skin tones in Animal Crossing. So. I'm pretty good with making a fuss over it. The progress we've made isn't perfect, but we made it by being loud and annoying, and there's a long way still to go.

 

[MidnightCowboy]

You should probably read the article this thread is about. If you did you'd know there is only one same sex male option, while the other two are swerve platonic supports.

Not to mention the past history of FE botching queer content.

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There is only one gay male option. The other two aren't romantic or gay.

It's easy to say that '' support the ones that make you feel good '' when not many products specifically go out of their way to make LGBT folk '' feel good '' lol.

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Jeez only a single one? I guess lesbian relationships are an easier sell to conservatives smh

 

[birdinsky]

Jeez only a single one? I guess lesbian relationships are an easier sell to conservatives smh

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It's not conservatives so much as straight dudes, but. Basically yes.

 

[808s & Villainy]

Also, really gotta emphasize how heavily the game/franchise lines up with straight male desires... Guy Byleth can date every recruitable woman in the game. People playing straight guy Byleths are not heavily mislead about their romantic options. It's true... Fates was hornier. This game is less horny than Fates. Nonetheless...

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Is the flipside not true for straight female Byleth?

 

[Mekanos]

As a poc who plays a lot of jrpgs, I just take what i can when it comes to representation/diversity. I don't expect a Japanese game studio/company with traditional views to cater to minorities, or hold the same values the west does. I don't think it's going to change. Like shouting at a brick wall. Japan gonna Japan.

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Yeah... I tend to think my ability to influence this as a westerner is limited. I'm not even picking up FE Three Houses, but it isn't because of the gay issues necessarily, so how would Nintendo know that's a deterrent? It's good to talk about it, but especially as far as Nintendo is concerned, it's a very insular creative culture.

 

[Lord Vatek]

Is the flipside not true for straight female Byleth?

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It actually isn't. Alois and Gilbert are not dateable by anyone.

 

[MrSaturn99]

Thanks for sharing. Having S-ranked Edelgard as female Byleth, I think this quote perfectly captures how off FE's queer representation has been:

Fire Emblem's relegation of queerness to "a choice you can make, I guess" while at the same time emphasizing the opposite-gender pairing off of characters is a perfect example of heteronormativity in action. If queerness exists in those worlds, it's something you add as the player, not something the game's world provides for you to have a meaningful experience with.

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[Bobcat Fancy]

Is the flipside not true for straight female Byleth?

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They have more than a dozen romantic options and the two platonic ones are, in my estimation, unlikely to be many people's first choice. By heavily misled, I'm talking about how gay guys appear to have multiple options, but in fact... do not. It sure seems like an obviously different scenario to me.

 

[brainchild]

Do games need anything? What's up with this new trend of criticizing media for not lining up with personal desires? I've said it before, but it just seems so selfish to want things to cater to you.

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This is a terrible take. Now, in that entitlement thread, I disagreed that devs should be mandated to provide equal representation, but that doesn't mean that consumers shouldn't fight for it. Entertainment plays an important role in the normalization of social constructs, which subsequently affects the quality of life for minority classes whose concerns are not being addressed due to the lack of exposure/acceptance.

That you think it's selfish for oppressed minorities to be vocal about building a more tolerant and inclusive society that improves everyone's well-being speaks volumes about how privileged and selfish you are.

 

[Laughing Banana]

I would like to read the article but at the beginning there's a spoiler warning so I hesitate (and I would like to S-Rank Edelgard in my BE playthrough next too)

In any event, I read the key quotes and well yeah, I agree, any game featuring romance/dating mechanism should try to be as inclusive as possible, especially when published by a gigantic company like Nintendo.

 

[Yabberwocky]

Absolutely fantastic article, OP, thank you for sharing. The situation with FE:3H's queer representation has been all over the place, and especially disappointing for players looking for more m/m representation.

 

[Nista]

Even going through the options as a straight woman, the romances are sometimes pretty iffy in Fire Emblem games. Three Houses is a bit better, but there's still the slightly off feeling of "dating" your students instead of just having platonic relationships. Not so much about the age difference cause the story obfuscates that, more about the power differential that you have in their lives in general.

 

[MidnightCowboy]

This is a terrible take. Now, in that entitlement thread, I disagreed that devs should be mandated to provide equal representation, but that doesn't mean that consumers shouldn't fight for it. Entertainment plays an important role in the normalization of social constructs, which subsequently affects the quality of life for minority classes whose concerns are not being addressed due to the lack of exposure/acceptance.

That you think it's selfish for oppressed minorities to be vocal about building a more tolerant and inclusive society that improves everyone's well-being speaks volumes about how privileged and selfish you are.

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Way to miss my point?? Where did I ever say anything that you implied I said? I said I disagree with the notion that any of these companies should be required to listen to fan demands, not that the demands are the issue.

 

[brainchild]

not that the demands are the issue.

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Then why would you say this?

What's up with this new trend of criticizing media for not lining up with personal desires?

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[laser]

Do games need anything? What's up with this new trend of criticizing media for not lining up with personal desires? I've said it before, but it just seems so selfish to want things to cater to you. Yes, Fire Emblem (and the whole industry) can have better representation—I think it's lame that there are only 3 gay male options—but don't slam something just because it doesn't live up to some idealized notion of what an entertainment product should be. Support the ones that make you feel good and ignore the ones that don't (unless they are truly heinous, like that GamerGater's Xbox game). It basically feels like the ultimate version of identity as consumer. You people are more than what you consume!

I do agree that support dialogue being the same for both genders is dumb as fuck.

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Ignore the ones that don't is bad advice. Companies have no idea why you didn't buy a game. Only be communicating to companies why you didn't buy a game will they know how they can make their products better.

 

[Prototype Viktor]

asking too much from people who won't let Zelda be the lead in her own game

 

[Tabaxi]

One thing the article doesn't mention is that one of the few same sex options for female Byleth is literally:

Spoiler

Sothis

Between dating your former students, pedophile-pandering, lack of queer representation, and a slew of other problematic nonsense, there is an abduance of gross shit both Intelligent Systems and Nintendo need to be held accountable for.

 

[Bobcat Fancy]

asking too much from people who won't let Zelda be the lead in her own game

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Seem like different franchises/developers. This franchise already has female protagonists and an existing mixed record of queer relationships. I think they can be improved. There used to be a lot more half-measures and disappointing queer content in Western games, but that's improved with feedback. The WLW stuff here is definitely better than Fates, if not ideal.

I think they can at least let one guy anime with okay-looking hair hook up with another, with the same. They've done it before, in Fates...

 

[MidnightCowboy]

Then why would you say this?

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The criticizing, as I see it, is derived from not getting what you want, which is not valid criticism in my opinion. It's one thing to say "I wish X had better representation", which is an extremely understandable position to take, and one I have felt before (I wish there were more Latinx Hollywood movie stars for example). My issue with it is when it turns from that into "X is bad/problematic for not having representation."

 

[brainchild]

The criticizing, as I see it, is derived from not getting what you want

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Then unfortunately, you're not seeing it.

 

[MidnightCowboy]

Then unfortunately, you're not seeing it.

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Then please explain it to me.

 

[Mekanos]

The criticizing, as I see it, is derived from not getting what you want, which is not valid criticism in my opinion. It's one thing to say "I wish X had better representation", which is an extremely understandable position to take, and one I have felt before (I wish there were more Latinx Hollywood movie stars for example). My issue with it is when it turns from that into "X is bad/problematic for not having representation."

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So criticism is bad when it's gay characters people want.

 

[spam musubi]

The criticizing, as I see it, is derived from not getting what you want, which is not valid criticism in my opinion.

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Can you give an example of criticism some devil's advocate won't be able to go "meh, you're just upset you didn't get what you wanted"?

 

[Prototype Viktor]

Seem like different franchises/developers. This franchise already has female protagonists and an existing mixed record of queer relationships. I think they can be improved. There used to be a lot more half-measures and disappointing queer content in Western games, but that's improved with feedback. The WLW stuff here is definitely better than Fates, if not ideal.

I think they can at least let one guy anime with okay-looking hair hook up with another, with the same. They've done it before, in Fates...

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doesn't matter the dev when Nintendo Japan is doing the publishing everyone except Pokemon Co bend to their will

it's not diffent from Nik or Cartoon Network letting Korra or Adventure Time happen but only a little bit

 

[Khanimus]

The criticizing, as I see it, is derived from not getting what you want, which is not valid criticism in my opinion. It's one thing to say "I wish X had better representation", which is an extremely understandable position to take, and one I have felt before (I wish there were more Latinx Hollywood movie stars for example). My issue with it is when it turns from that into "X is bad/problematic for not having representation."

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Imagine that, gay people wanting to be treated fairly and thoughtfully included in a fantasy game.

And yes? It is bad.