Vice: Reporters and Activists Are Being Harassed for Saying Kobe Bryant Was Credibly Accused of Rape (Read Staff Posts)

Seganomics

Member
Oct 29, 2017
1,094
When my father passes away, or some of my best friends pass away, if the first things I heard from others was about some terrible thing they did decades prior, I'd probably be upset. Very upset. It doesn't mean it didn't happen, but there is a way to discuss topics constructively and not in a way to make people feel guilty for their grief.

Kobe's death has been very weird to me in that regard. I fully acknowledge that he did a reprehensible thing to another human being, but my heart still dropped when I saw the news, and my heart heart for his family and people who loved him and his daughter. I don't think this stuff has to be black and white.
If your father had carried out a crime, such as that committed by Kobe Bryant, then I would hope you would have understanding of his victims pain. And then also realise that it was your father, and not any one else, that brought that pain to your door.
 

TheZynster

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,605
This is the first time I’ve heard about the main details of the actual rape case and woof if there ever was a time to take the adage “believe women” moment to heart it’s this. The fact they had to change the law right after the case speaks volumes. Mourn the lives that were lost, but sweeping his past under the rug hurts victims of rape everywhere.
it's like ignoring Derrick Rose's issues that he had too. The man means a lot to chicago and has ton a lot for the city, but to deny the past and what he did is just ludicrous.

The media sure likes to warp it though that it was his persistence through adversity and likes to fold the assault case into a comeback narrative. Which is just an insult to survivors.
 

DiK4

Member
Nov 4, 2017
958
Fact is she settled it out of court and public opinion starts to get murky when that happens. Not saying he didn't do it, not defending him. Just saying that when you settle, you lose that shot of de-facto saying hey this person is a fucking asshole and I proved it in court.

It goes to he was accused, and history just lets it fade away thanks to popular opinion and media as we know it today. It's a tragedy what happened to the people on that helicopter, and its a tragedy what happened to the girl who was raped.

It is not black and white, only fools do that.
 
OP
OP
Syriel

Syriel

Member
Dec 13, 2017
7,320
Harassing people for reporting facts? C'mon now.

And for Kobe's legacy, it includes the good and the bad.

Many people feel like it doesn't take away from his good. Okay.

Many people feel like it is the only part of his legacy that matters. Okay.

Trying to police how others should mourn, and yes people are mourning Kobe, will always come off as trying to score points. It doesn't feel like it's a whole lot of people doing this, but I definitely come across twitter personalities issuing apologies for their previous wording on this matter. Granted, it seems that Twitter-sphere is done with white women, in particular, dunking on black people; however, there are some notable women of color who voices are being championed surrounding why everyone should face Kobe's full legacy.

Trying to ensure that Kobe's full legacy is taken in consideration when discussing his death as a news event is 100% fair, and should not be ushered away.

Also, if you know someone who has been a victim of sexual assault, try to check in on them if you have the capacity to do so.
Agree 100%
 

Gleethor

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,662
Dot Matrix with stereo sound
When my father passes away, or some of my best friends pass away, if the first things I heard from others was about some terrible thing they did decades prior, I'd probably be upset. Very upset. It doesn't mean it didn't happen, but there is a way to discuss topics constructively and not in a way to make people feel guilty for their grief.

Kobe's death has been very weird to me in that regard. I fully acknowledge that he did a reprehensible thing to another human being, but my heart still dropped when I saw the news, and my heart heart for his family and people who loved him and his daughter. I don't think this stuff has to be black and white.
Yeah Kobe’s not your dad
 

Sibersk Esto

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,820
Hopefully he does become a better person and tries to right his wrongs.
I agree, doesn't look to be anytime soon. Maybe in some years.
He probably will not, not sincerely anyway. Because Kevin Spacey is very likely a narcissistic sociopath.

That's something that I find has been lost in all this talk about "redemption", "remorse" "paying your dues" "being cancelled" etc etc

The people who do these things are more often then not incapable of, if not actively discouraged to feel any sort of remorse

Either you believe they were born that way (nature), in which case they were attracted to the positions they eventually attained because of the status and power it would afford them, or you believe they became that way (nurture) where their eventual fame breeded in them an attitude of intense entitlement.

Either way, the fact of the matter is that the famous people who commit these crimes are in positions where every impulse is immediately catered to, and . every whim satisfied. Left to their own devices, most people will fight like hell to make sure they remain in those positions. The victims of their crimes are no longer "victims" in their minds, but terrorists who threaten their way of life.

Was Kobe Bryant a sociopath? I won't say. But he was a part of, and a benefactor of a system that breeds and requires narcissism and entitlement. So much so that it plants a subconscious fear in the minds of society at large that when they become rich and famous (because the system likes to tell us everyone can be rich and famous), someone will be there in the shadows to take it away.
 

foggy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,772
Fact is she settled it out of court and public opinion starts to get murky when that happens. Not saying he didn't do it, not defending him. Just saying that when you settle, you lose that shot of de-facto saying hey this person is a fucking asshole and I proved it in court.

It goes to he was accused, and history just lets it fade away thanks to popular opinion and media as we know it today. It's a tragedy what happened to the people on that helicopter, and its a tragedy what happened to that girl.

It is not black and white, only fools do that.
He admitted he choked her, he admitted it wasn't consensual, he used his money and power to silence her. The rape was real, it happened.

As for the idea of court and public opinion, Al Capone was a gangster, not just a guy who didn't pay his taxes. Fact of the matter is that discussion around sexual consent was way more pre-historic in 2003 than it was today.
 

RedMercury

Member
Dec 24, 2017
10,463
That's a very fair and excellent question. It isn't up to y'all or me. That's kind of my point. No one's opinions mean fuck all except for those effected, that being the accused and more so, the victim. Whether it's rape, theft, assault or any hostile or threatening act. Those involved should determine that amongst themselves. Let them come to terms, settle differences and possibly redeem themselves under their own conditions.
Two other ways to look at that: If no one's opinions mean fuck all, policing them in any way is of no importance. Alternatively, like with anything each person makes a personal decision about who/what they support/don't support based on their own belief systems and convictions. None of us are going to know the pain of the victim and what she's been through and the toll it has taken, but no
 

-PXG-

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,186
NJ
There isn't anything wrong with stating facts. But one should consider the outcome of that particular fact. How will people react? What will they do? How will it influence them if at all? What is the point beyond just making a point?

I know...IRL I get laughed at and mocked for asking these crazy ass, existential questions. It's what keeps me up at night I guess. Anyway, as I've aged, I've put more thought into practical outcomes, and what leads to them.

Believe me, I'm not trying censor anyone. I'm not trying to bury someone's past. The truth matters. But what good does it do sometimes? Look at this forum as an example. This and similar topics have torn people apart. People are angry, people are upset, we got folks getting reported and banned. What's the outcome? What's the end goal? How does this all culminate in a positive way where everyone feels like they've grown and can move forward knowing they've learned something?

You have one side reminding us to never forget or undermine terrible transgressions, warning us on how harmful blind idolization is. Then you have the other side who wants to mourn in peace and use the moment to remember the positive influence an individual had on the world. Neither side is wrong. I just wish there was a better way for both sides to express themselves without having the other feel disrespected.
 

Balls

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
235
User Banned (3 Months): Ignoring the Staff Post, Trolling about Sexual Assault
He admitted he choked her, he admitted it wasn't consensual, he used his money and power to silence her. The rape was real, it happened.

As for the idea of court and public opinion, Al Capone was a gangster, not just a guy who didn't pay his taxes. Fact of the matter is that discussion around sexual consent was way more pre-historic in 2003 than it was today.
Oh. Were you there?
 

Surfinn

Member
Oct 25, 2017
25,522
USA
Can someone explain to me how you can simultaneously argue that you didn't rape someone while acknowledging the accuser's account of being raped?
 
Oct 27, 2017
6,540
I don’t agree with those tweets a few pages back that says only a victim can deem someone else worthy of redemption. No, they can forgive, should they choose to, that’s their right. No one else can forgive for them. But a person can turn themselves around and find redemption within regardless of what others think. At least that’s how I see it.

All of this is to say that you shouldn’t ignore someone’s past, let the forgiving be handled by the victims, and allow a person to rehabilitate and be better going forward.
 

Sibersk Esto

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,820
Believe me, I'm not trying censor anyone. I'm not trying to bury someone's past. The truth matters. But what good does it do sometimes? Look at this forum as an example. This and similar topics have torn people apart. People are angry, people are upset, we got folks getting reported and banned. What's the outcome? What's the end goal? How does this all culminate in a positive way where everyone feels like they've grown and can move forward knowing they've learned something?
To craft a society that holds perpetrators accountable for their crimes, and to do that we must acknowledge the current systems in place that prevent such a thing from being possible.
 

Ignacious

Member
Dec 17, 2017
102
User Banned (1 Month): Dismissing Allegations of Sexual Assault. Ignoring Staff Post.
We never got a trial. I still abide by the American justice system tenet of innocent until proven guilty. The opportunity for a trial was there. It was passed on, especially as the details that came out at the time were inconsistent.
 
Oct 26, 2017
11,671
We never got a trial. I still abide by the American justice system tenet of innocent until proven guilty. The opportunity for a trial was there. It was passed on, especially as the details that came out at the time were inconsistent.
He admitted it wasn't consensual, so he did rape someone. 100% fact. That doesn't mean you cannot mourn for him.
 

BAD

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,037
USA
We never got a trial. I still abide by the American justice system tenet of innocent until proven guilty. The opportunity for a trial was there. It was passed on, especially as the details that came out at the time were inconsistent.
He admitted to it in his statement. Do an ounce of reading before denying the facts of him being a rapist.
 

Fiction

Fanthropologist
Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,342
Elf Tower, New Mexico
There is a larger issue here that people are not getting.

The reason I'm getting more and more upset:
As a victim, I've been through the system
I reported it, was demeaned, harassed, accused of being a slut, of seducing him (I was 13 when I reported it, he was my biological father), of lying for attention. The cops asked me if maybe I lead him on. He pled guilty, got seven years of probation and time served.

I know how this shirt works, how it hurts, and most of all, how it fucking stays with you.

So to see so many people just glossing over at best and outright attacking people who bring it up at worse is showing me how much we still need to change and how much the plight of victims is still...just nothing to most.

This could be how a lot of people are feeling. People aren't bringing up the rape for funsies. They are bringing it up because it honestly highlights issues with our culture and the response to that is cementing them.
 

ShyMel

Member
Oct 31, 2017
2,421
In a statement, Tracy Grant, managing editor of The Washington Post, said “National political reporter Felicia Sonmez was placed on administrative leave while The Post reviews whether tweets about the death of Kobe Bryant violated The Post newsroom’s social media policy. The tweets displayed poor judgment that undermined the work of her colleagues.“
Shame on Washington Post for this.
 

Complicated

Member
Oct 29, 2017
2,906
Can someone explain to me how you can simultaneously argue that you didn't rape someone while acknowledging the accuser's account of being raped?
Not communicating during sex and assuming things with an unfamiliar partner or even a long time partner can get you in trouble very quickly. Of course, her account would have to be fictional for this to be a possibility. She asked for charges to be dropped and refused to testify so it's not cut and dry.

He's still a rapist in the same way a person convicted of manslaughter still killed someone.
 

Shroki

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,844
User Banned (1 Month): Ignoring Staff Post; Threadwhining in a Sensitive Thread
I don't think it was smart or useful to litigate this issue right after he, his daughter and 7 other people died. Not the least of which because there's no positive outcome here for sexual assault awareness. There's no lane to a positive discussion or a better world for sexual assault survivors by writing these stories right now. The outcome here is the only outcome that could have ever happened: a handful of the people who are hurt by the loss of Kobe Bryant lashing out.

Everybody is hurt and everybody loses.
 

Surfinn

Member
Oct 25, 2017
25,522
USA
Not communicating during sex and assuming things with an unfamiliar partner or even a long time partner can get you in trouble very quickly. Of course, her account would have to be fictional for this to be a possibility. She asked for charges to be dropped and refused to testify so it's not cut and dry.

He's still a rapist in the same way a person convicted of manslaughter still killed someone.
It's rape if he acknowledged her account of the sex not being consensual. She was bullied and smeared out of the trial.
 

Biw

Member
Oct 28, 2017
105
There isn't anything wrong with stating facts. But one should consider the outcome of that particular fact. How will people react? What will they do? How will it influence them if at all? What is the point beyond just making a point?

I know...IRL I get laughed at and mocked for asking these crazy ass, existential questions. It's what keeps me up at night I guess. Anyway, as I've aged, I've put more thought into practical outcomes, and what leads to them.

Believe me, I'm not trying censor anyone. I'm not trying to bury someone's past. The truth matters. But what good does it do sometimes? Look at this forum as an example. This and similar topics have torn people apart. People are angry, people are upset, we got folks getting reported and banned. What's the outcome? What's the end goal? How does this all culminate in a positive way where everyone feels like they've grown and can move forward knowing they've learned something?

You have one side reminding us to never forget or undermine terrible transgressions, warning us on how harmful blind idolization is. Then you have the other side who wants to mourn in peace and use the moment to remember the positive influence an individual had on the world. Neither side is wrong. I just wish there was a better way for both sides to express themselves without having the other feel disrespected.
Agree with this 100%. It shouldn't be "fuck Kobe" or "fuck the victims". That gets us no where as a society.
 

HeySeuss

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,334
Ohio
User banned (3 months): excusing rape
I think we should also consider Kobe was 19 when the allegation came out during a time when he was making millions and having women throw themselves at him every night. I'm not excusing his behavior, but he was still a kid then not used to anyone saying no to him.

He learned from his mistake and went on to be an inspiration to millions of kids to give them hope. The man stopped to help someone in a car accident on the freeway. He was a good person.

You have to remember the context. I side eye anyone that also discounts the coverage of Kobe and Gigi's death and trips over themselves to point out there were also 7 other people on the helicopter.
 

J-Wood

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,465
I’m one on the ones that has complicated feelings on this.

On one hand, I’m absolutely in no way happy this crash happened. Lives were lost and it’s so tragic.

I’m also not in any way happy Kobe dies. It’s awful.

What does give me pause is how in the wake of his death, so many accolades are given. He’s discussed as a role model, inspiring, someone to look up to. Those things being said without any acknowledgment of the sex assault case just makes me question how victims of sex assault and rape feel when they see that. We can still acknowledge the good things he did, but the bad things also have to be included. It’s not about dragging his name through the mud or anything like that. I just wonder how a younger person today would see Kobe’s entire life, the good and the bad, and then see in his death nothing but accolades. We shouldn’t be continuing to give the impression that it’s ok to sexually assault someone as long as you’re really good at other stuff.

it’s complicated. I think I’m summary you can be sad what happened and still also think maybe Kobe wasn’t the most inspiring person.
 

Meatfist

Member
Oct 25, 2017
992
It is a factual statement that Kobe admitted to non-consentual sex (rape), and it should absolutely be a subject of discussion in relation to the rest of his legacy.

It's not okay to sweep that under the rug, but it's also not slick at all to drive-by post "he was a rapist tho" in a thread where we're finding out what happened in real time. I believe that Kobe attempted to right his wrongs by being a positive role model for his children and the rest of the sporting world, but even if he didn't absolutely no one deserves to die in a helicopter crash with their young daughter
 

silkysmooth

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,460
I never knew we had so many people with a vested interest in the trial by jury process here on ERA

Like it somehow doesn't count if he isn't found guilty in a court of law.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,069
I think we should also consider Kobe was 19 when the allegation came out during a time when he was making millions and having women throw themselves at him every night. I'm not excusing his behavior, but he was still a kid then not used to anyone saying no to him.
He was a month shy of 25, with a wife and a six-month-old child. He wasn't a kid, and whatever your intention, it definitely reads as making excuses for him.
 

fuchsdh

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,940
I think we should also consider Kobe was 19 when the allegation came out during a time when he was making millions and having women throw themselves at him every night. I'm not excusing his behavior, but he was still a kid then not used to anyone saying no to him.

He learned from his mistake and went on to be an inspiration to millions of kids to give them hope. The man stopped to help someone in a car accident on the freeway. He was a good person.

You have to remember the context. I side eye anyone that also discounts the coverage of Kobe and Gigi's death and trips over themselves to point out there were also 7 other people on the helicopter.
Bryant was close to 25. The victim was 19.
 

Imran

Member
Oct 24, 2017
3,272
I think we should also consider Kobe was 19 when the allegation came out during a time when he was making millions and having women throw themselves at him every night. I'm not excusing his behavior, but he was still a kid then not used to anyone saying no to him.
His victim was 19. He was in his mid-20s.

Weird that we don't call the victim a kid.
 

Siggy-P

Avenger
Mar 18, 2018
6,960
I think we should also consider Kobe was 19 when the allegation came out during a time when he was making millions and having women throw themselves at him every night. I'm not excusing his behavior, but he was still a kid then not used to anyone saying no to him.
That is very litteraly an excuse though. You're trying to justify what he did by inventing a situation you believe others will be convinced by that Kobe didn't do anything that bad.

And it's not even true. He was 25 with a wife and kids and raped a staff member of the hotel after choking her when she tried to leave.

It's a not "whoops, didn't mean it" situation.
 

mutantmagnet

Member
Oct 28, 2017
9,854
I’m one on the ones that has complicated feelings on this.

On one hand, I’m absolutely in no way happy this crash happened. Lives were lost and it’s so tragic.

I’m also not in any way happy Kobe dies. It’s awful.

What does give me pause is how in the wake of his death, so many accolades are given. He’s discussed as a role model, inspiring, someone to look up to. Those things being said without any acknowledgment of the sex assault case just makes me question how victims of sex assault and rape feel when they see that. We can still acknowledge the good things he did, but the bad things also have to be included. It’s not about dragging his name through the mud or anything like that. I just wonder how a younger person today would see Kobe’s entire life, the good and the bad, and then see in his death nothing but accolades. We shouldn’t be continuing to give the impression that it’s ok to sexually assault someone as long as you’re really good at other stuff.

it’s complicated. I think I’m summary you can be sad what happened and still also think maybe Kobe wasn’t the most inspiring person.

I think what's being taken for granted is that Kobe is popular. When Michael Jackson died people weren't getting much flack for bringing up for what was still at the time a contested understanding of his interactions with children.


When someone really awful dies that pisses off multiple demographics people will at best mention you should respect the dead but they will be understanding of anyone badmouthing that infamous person.

Sadly that is an indictment, with the Kobe death, today most people aren't atleast understanding of rape victims.

Maybe a couple of weeks from now there will be more frank discussion about that incident but be prepared for people to start weighing the balance of Kobe helping other people over this woman.
 

Snagret

Member
Oct 25, 2017
280
There is a larger issue here that people are not getting.

The reason I'm getting more and more upset:
As a victim, I've been through the system
I reported it, was demeaned, harassed, accused of being a slut, of seducing him (I was 13 when I reported it, he was my biological father), of lying for attention. The cops asked me if maybe I lead him on. He pled guilty, got seven years of probation and time served.

I know how this shirt works, how it hurts, and most of all, how it fucking stays with you.

So to see so many people just glossing over at best and outright attacking people who bring it up at worse is showing me how much we still need to change and how much the plight of victims is still...just nothing to most.

This could be how a lot of people are feeling. People aren't bringing up the rape for funsies. They are bringing it up because it honestly highlights issues with our culture and the response to that is cementing them.
Thank you, everyone who's accusing others of trying to score "woke points" by wanting to have this discussion needs to understand this. His actions reach beyond his rape victim. What happened with his case sends a clear message that, to this day, leaves a bad taste in many peoples mouths.
 

Powdered Egg

Member
Oct 27, 2017
12,590
He's been a beloved, pampered, entitled athlete and public figure since his early teens. This wasn't his only rape imo, it's the only time he got caught. That's how I feel about all celeb/athlete rapists, it's not just one.

His legacy got to flourish and he was allowed to still build his career because society doesn't take rape victims seriously. It's fair to bring this case up.

Rapists are irredeemable imo. They can do good, like anybody else, but I don't care for them. The entire circumstances around his and the other's deaths are still incredibly tragic.
 
Nov 2, 2017
702
The media sure likes to warp it though that it was his persistence through adversity and likes to fold the assault case into a comeback narrative. Which is just an insult to survivors.
Yep. This old Onion Sportsdome video sticks in my mind in that regard, because it's so clearly just the exact coverage that the media loves to put on rapist athletes:


It's from 2011, and yet still it seems like it could basically be something ESPN produced today with a straight face.
 

n00bs7ay3r

Member
Aug 21, 2018
1,073
It is a factual statement that Kobe admitted to non-consentual sex (rape), and it should absolutely be a subject of discussion in relation to the rest of his legacy.

It's not okay to sweep that under the rug, but it's also not slick at all to drive-by post "he was a rapist tho" in a thread where we're finding out what happened in real time. I believe that Kobe attempted to right his wrongs by being a positive role model for his children and the rest of the sporting world, but even if he didn't absolutely no one deserves to die in a helicopter crash with their young daughter
I don't think any innocent children deserve to die. But to say that no one deserves to die for any reason seems a little extreme. Like if Harvey Weinstein dies in a helicopter crash tomorrow I won't be shedding any tears. I also don't think anyone will get banned from the forum for calling him a rapist either.
 

Zips

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,977
It's been quite abhorrent how people who have spoken up about this in the past day have been treated, and yes, that includes here.
 

sph3re

Avenger
Oct 28, 2017
5,154
Calling Kobe a "rapist" is not raising awareness. He was never convicted of rape in a court of law.
I know you're banned, but just for the people in the back: if you admit to something, the result of your court case doesn't matter
When my father passes away, or some of my best friends pass away, if the first things I heard from others was about some terrible thing they did decades prior, I'd probably be upset. Very upset. It doesn't mean it didn't happen, but there is a way to discuss topics constructively and not in a way to make people feel guilty for their grief.
Your father, to my knowledge, isn't a public figure.
 

nanskee

Member
Oct 31, 2017
2,900
User Banned (1 Month): Ignoring Mod Post, Whataboutism
Honestly, I don't take white people's opinions or criticisms of black people seriously. From birth black people will be vilified and in death, from past to the present and the future. Black people aren't given the luxury to be given a full bio but merely a description. So despite all the accolades, the philanthropy, community work and dedication to his family, Kobe is simply a rapist according to my white co-workers.

This has happened on numerous times throughout history, from Martin Luther King, to Patrice Lumumba, to Malcolm Shabazz, to Michael Jackson, Neilson Mandela etc.. I'm not saying all these people are perfect or without transgressions but most times great black people are unfairly criticized and judged.

One of the worst parts of this accidents were the very young children on board, including Kobe's daughter. The fact that people still finding a way to drag this guy and his family is shameful and quite frankly inhumane.

Black people should never take white people's criticisms on black people seriously.
 

Hasseigaku

Member
Oct 30, 2017
1,629
We should not downplay the crimes of public figures, but I think we
You can't say that this was not his only rape and then add "in my opinion". Don't make shit up and stick to facts. Yes, he did admit to a non consensual encounter. No, you have no evidence it happened more than once.
The degree to which his victim was abused by the system assured that if there were any more victims they’d never come for ward.
 

uzipukki

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,960
Honestly, I don't take white people's opinions or criticisms of black people seriously. From birth black people will be vilified and in death, from past to the present and the future. Black people area t given the luxury to be given a full bio but merely a description. So despite all the accolades, the philanthropy, community work and dedication to his family, Kobe is simply a rapist according to my white co-workers.

This has happened on numerous times throughout history, from Martin Luther King, to Patrice Lumumba, to Malcolm Shabazz, to Michael Jackson, Neilson Mandela etc.. I'm not saying all these people are perfect or without transgressions but most times great black people are unfairly criticized and judged.

One of the worst parts of this accidents were the very young children on board, including Kobe's daughter. The fact that people still finding a way to drag this guy and his family is shameful and quite frankly inhumane
His death doesnt erase his past. He admitted raping a woman. Sorry he died but he also raped someone.