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Vice: Reporters and Activists Are Being Harassed for Saying Kobe Bryant Was Credibly Accused of Rape (Read Staff Posts)

excelsiorlef

Member
Oct 25, 2017
44,443
And what would you propose should have happened to him? Serious question if he goes to jail he loses money and his family most likely

Staying our he made money but started helping others around the globe and yesterday he lost his life and his daughters so that’s a wash on the losing his family.
Allow me to in fact elbaorate

This is no different than the reasoning behind Brock Turner.... Don't ruin a man's life just because he raped someone.

Everything here is centered around him and what would happen to him, not a single thought is given to his victim.
 

GoldenEye 007

Roll Tide, Y'all!
Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,153
Texas
I have no skin in this game as I am not a Kobe fan or basketball fan in general.

I am, however, a rape survivor and uh...

No. No to all of this. It's been 25+ years since my rape and it still fucks me up every day.

'Unfortunate'

Yeah no, that shit is life altering.
And nowhere did I say it wasn't. Unfortunate is a negative word and association. Nowhere was it meant to imply it wasn't.
 

platocplx

Member
Oct 30, 2017
3,126
It’s a tough question for sure but i was brought up in a system (I recognize this might be different in the US) that teached us if a person works for his/her rehabilitation society should give said person a second chance even if you kill someone (Unless you‘re a threat to society of course).
This is what i thought as well, but in practice its a lot more complicated. someone brought up vick and hell even tyson and people will never forgive them,and or would celebrate their deaths probably as well. so i always wonder if people really dont believe in that ideal at all.
 

TheMango55

Member
Nov 1, 2017
5,256
Whether or not Kobe intended to rape doesn't change that he did, and admitted as much. Manslaughter is still killing someone.
But it's also not murder.

So perhaps there should be a different word for it.

I think a person who accidentally kills someone in a negligent car accident can be redeemed while a person who tortures and murders someone for fun can't.
 

Haint

Member
Oct 14, 2018
486
not sure if this had to do with the timing, but there was a lot of confusion on who was even involved. Early reports from from ABC suggested it was 5 people that died including Kobe and all his daughters..
Nah my dude, this was the 5 o-clock national news, story was like 4 hours old by that point. They straight up didn't give a fuck about the other people involved.
 

Feep

Lead Designer, Iridium Studios
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
2,014
The man died in a horrific accident with his daughter, leaving behind his grieving wife and three other daughters.

What exactly is being achieved by saying "yeah but he was a rapist" within hours of his death?

There's most definitely a discussion to be had about sweeping these things under the rug, but have some fucking human decency at least.
When victims of sexual assault...millions upon millions, world over...see the world reacting to the death of a straight rapist by utterly glorifying him and holding him up as an absolute paragon, how do you think that feels to them? That people are talking about making the NBA logo the silhouette of a person who, despite raping another person, became a beloved near-billionaire icon world over?

It matters because those people are watching, and feel deeply as though the world still doesn't care what rich or powerful men do. Plenty of people are stanning Kobe to the point of harassing anyone that would dare step forward and mention maybe he wasn't such a great guy. It's worth mentioning now, at the absolute height of this worship.
 

excelsiorlef

Member
Oct 25, 2017
44,443
I don't know, I wasn't there. I'm just asking what do we do when someone is accused of rape, and our legal system doesn't punish them the way you think they should be punished?
This is not about doing. This is about you claiming he suffered enough consequences.


And then basically implying I wanted to lynch him.

So you know cool.


He should have been tried and convincted and sentenced in 2003.
 

WoahW

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,871
Allow me to in fact elbaorate

This is no different than the reasoning behind Brock Turner.... Don't ruin a man's life just because he raped someone.

Everything here is centered around him and what would happen to him, not a single thought is given to his victim.
You once again aren’t answering the question at hand. His victim deserves a voice and justice but the question is what would you propose be done to him? Is jail enough to start a redemption? Is there nothing that could have happened for him to start to be redeemed? These are legitimate questions you keep off putting for some reason. I‘m not even a basketball fan but I’m curious what do you propose should have happened to him

Edit - Saw your response. So if he had been put in jail then all would be good? That’s all it would take?
 

Solaris

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,563
He should have been tried and convicted and sentenced in 2003.
And he wasn't, which is a failing on multiple levels.

At what point does one then get redemption and at what point is it seen as acceptable to use the destruction of a (seemingly very happy) family as a soapbox to suddenly bring it back up?
 

TAJ

Member
Oct 28, 2017
6,625
How is this thread seeking out his fans? I mean sure he has fans on here but this isn't a basketball forum nor a Kobe forum
Seriously.
The title should make it obvious that this isn't going to be a Kobe lovefest.
Before any of the bans I decided not to participate in the news thread because I didn't want to further upset people who couldn't even accept the reality of the crash yet.
 
Staff post - discussion guidelines #2

Nepenthe

When the music hits, you feel no pain.
Administrator
Oct 25, 2017
7,288
Official Staff Communication
You can use the obituary thread to express sentiments of mourning (this would be the actual "time and place"). This thread is about the harassment received by supporters of Bryant's victim concerning her allegations of sexual assault. Therefore, it is not the "time and place" to shut down discussion over this matter.

Any posts doing that going forward will be treated as thread-whining and moderated strictly.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Vengeance

Member
Jan 11, 2018
4,301
This thread/topic sorta speaks to a problem I have with online discourse in general, not just ERA. There's a lot of taking the moral high ground in bad faith as a means to troll, condescend, and/or score an easy 'win'. Anyone dare call you out or disagree on any level, and they're immediately accused of supporting whatever the fucked up thing is. It's shitty and prevents things from being discussed with the nuance/complexity they often deserve.

Like I don't give a fuck about Justin Beiber and never bring him up or think about him. But if he died suddenly tommorow and I seek out his fans while they're in shock trying to process what happened, and start calling him a racist POS, even if I'm not wrong, I know full well what I'm doing and how shitty it is.
This is kind of where I align. What exactly are you accomplishing by going into a thread that's discussing Kobe's death and saying "I'm happy a rapist died?" You know full well how sensitive and upsetting that thread is going to be and what your response is going to elicit. I'm not saying there isn't a discussion to be had about the subject, but I certainly don't believe it was at that time. There's a time and place for everything.

Edit: Just saw the staff post above. This will be my last post on the subject.
 

Regulus Tera

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,472
I mean, just look at what happened on the Kobe thread yesterday with people who tried to bring this issue to light.
 

cartographer

Member
Oct 25, 2017
943
Official Staff Communication

You can use the obituary thread to express sentiments of mourning (this would be the actual "time and place"). This thread is about the harassment received by supporters of Bryant's victim concerning her allegations of sexual assault. Therefore, it is not the "time and place" to shut down discussion over this matter.

Any posts doing that going forward will be treated as thread-whining and moderated strictly.
It's about what Kobe Bryant admitted to doing. Can we please stop using the "allegations" wording when we have his own words admitting to it?
 

jey_16

Member
Oct 28, 2017
542
He learned from it and moved on to be a better person and husband. Look at the contributions he has done after that incident. I believe it should be changed as well and it is fitting that he was a Laker just like Jerry West.
I understand that he has done a lot for the sport but your talking about changing the logo for the entire league, especially for someone who has this incident in his past.

The message that sends out is terrible
 

excelsiorlef

Member
Oct 25, 2017
44,443
And he wasn't, which is a failing on multiple levels.

At what point does one then get redemption and at what point is it seen as acceptable to use the destruction of a (seemingly very happy) family as a soapbox to suddenly bring it back up?
His legacy is being written, people literally want him to become the NBA logo.

It's not suddenly.

It's in director response to total and complete lionization.

The reality is he bought his redemption....
 

krazen

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,022
Gentrified Brooklyn
I dunno. In the case of the suspended washpro reporter I dunno if accurately reporting the case is dropping an out of context news article in the middle of a crazy tragedy, then act surprised twitter rises up against you. (endangering your job while trying to prove the later point)

I read plenty of twitter hot takes that managed to mention Kobe’s piece of shitness bur didn’t seem as troll-y.
 

RedMercury

Member
Dec 24, 2017
10,505
The man died in a horrific accident with his daughter, leaving behind his grieving wife and three other daughters.
Yes, and that is horrible. It's also horrible that there is a victim of rape who did not get justice and has been grieving over that for years. It's not like these things cancel each other out, they each happened and they can each be talked about.
 

Gotdatmoney

Member
Oct 28, 2017
8,960
This is how I view it.

You can't harass people because they bring up Bryant's rape allegations. Like, it's just a fact that this is a part of his legacy. That said, yesterday was just a whirlwind of misinformation and emotion in the basketball community, the international community, the news among other things. Unless you were hoping Kobe died from helicopter crash with his 13 year old daughter (which is fucked up and if you in any way joked or thought this was a good thing you're fucking trash period), the amount of shit people were saying and doing while all the info was still coming together and being sorted out was shitty. Kobe is a rapist as far as I'm concerned, that doesn't mean that is the first thing I expect people to want to talk about upon learning of death by exploding aircraft. Is that fucking unreasonable?

You can talk about the dude's past, but I also think there is just this sudden imaginary place people live in when stuff like this happens where they think anything you say is valid and will be accepted at any time. That's not how it works. Human beings are complex, emotions are complex. I don't fault people for not immediately wanting to have this discussion before even knowing who the fuck was in the helicopter. I don't expect them to have it right then and there, people can disagree with me all they want. Doesn't mean people aren't allowed to bring it up if they choose, but I just find it hard believe people are confused about the response.

Edit:

Official Staff Communication
You can use the obituary thread to express sentiments of mourning (this would be the actual "time and place"). This thread is about the harassment received by supporters of Bryant's victim concerning her allegations of sexual assault. Therefore, it is not the "time and place" to shut down discussion over this matter.

Any posts doing that going forward will be treated as thread-whining and moderated strictly.
Whoops, didn't see this post before I submitted. Will respect going forward.
 
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Volimar

volunteer forum janitor
Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,073
It’s a tough question for sure but i was brought up in a system (I recognize this might be different in the US) that teached us if a person works for his/her rehabilitation society should give said person a second chance even if you kill someone (Unless you‘re a threat to society of course).

They still have the chance to contribute to society, but the past is never wiped away. Especially when their are victims in your wake.
 

Doomsayer

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,613
I'm fine with there being two separate threads, one being the obituary thread and one being a thread regarding his rape accusation.

The thing is for anyone who followed the Lakers, the NBA, or Kobe's career we all know about the rape accusation and everything surrounding it. Going into a thread where people are mourning after a tragic accident that killed 9 people is in poor taste. For the people who followed his career and his life seen him take a path to redemption (at least in his eyes) and genuinely be better.

No one has forgot about the victim and no one is excusing what happened in the past. I just think taking a victory lap over people mourning is pathetic.
 

fuchsdh

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,940
The man died in a horrific accident with his daughter, leaving behind his grieving wife and three other daughters.

What exactly is being achieved by saying "yeah but he was a rapist" within hours of his death?

There's most definitely a discussion to be had about sweeping these things under the rug, but have some fucking human decency at least.
Because “having decency” is exactly how this stuff is swept under the rug. You’re gonna write your obit and leave out things “for decency”, you start the work of obliterating the full accounting of his life from the public record.

The false comparison of people saying “while celebrating his accomplishments let’s remember his faults” with “he raped someone so fuck him and his kid, they deserved to die” is exactly how you start building the hagiographies.

What exactly is being achieved by hiding his crimes? Why is the onus on us to provide cover for rich, powerful public figures?
 

SoZetaSlow

Member
Sep 20, 2019
1,065
This is what i thought as well, but in practice its a lot more complicated. someone brought up vick and hell even tyson and people will never forgive them,and or would celebrate their deaths probably as well. so i always wonder if people really dont believe in that ideal at all.
isn't Tyson mostly beloved now? Like I know very few people who know of his past and most that do shrug it off as no big deal.
 

Coyote Starrk

The Fallen
Oct 30, 2017
21,738
DFW, Texas
It’s a tough question for sure but i was brought up in a system (I recognize this might be different in the US) that teached us if a person works for his/her rehabilitation society should give said person a second chance even if you kill someone (Unless you‘re a threat to society of course).
That's the way it should be everywhere pretty much in my opinion. I don't think murderers should be allowed that same chance, but everyone else should be afforded the opportunity to better themselves and society so long as they are genuine in their remorse and their efforts.
 
Jan 29, 2018
2,511
This thread is terrifying with its different definitions of rape and "it's not forcible rape and she just didn't say 'no.'" Not saying "no" isn't the bar to clear, getting a "yes" is.

The lack of explicit intent to rape doesn't make it not rape, it just makes the perpetrator ignorant of the definition.
 

Deepwater

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,514
Would y’all feel any differently if you knew the people who’s comments came across abrasively were rape victims themselves?
 

RedMercury

Member
Dec 24, 2017
10,505
Calling Kobe a "rapist" is not raising awareness. He was never convicted of rape in a court of law.
So you believe the law and the courts are the ultimate arbiters of truth, that the label they give if beyond reproach? Respectfully, I have a bridge you may be interested in buying, we can also say Casey Anthony is not a murderer and Michael Jackson did not molest children if what a court said was the ultimate authority.
 

excelsiorlef

Member
Oct 25, 2017
44,443
Btw all of this talk of redemption, I see no evidence that he say worked with women's rights groups, or women's shelters, or anti-rape advocacy groups.

He did other philanthropy sure but unless you can show me he participated in a sort of self guided restorative justice thing I think talking about how he redeemed himself by being good elsewhere isn't convincing.
 

Trey

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,737
This. America wants it's heroes to be perfect. It is OK to recognize, and remember, that someone's hero may have done something horrible.

To deny that, in this case, is to deny the very legitimate trauma of sex assault victims. Anyone who does so cannot legitimately claim to be an ally.
There are plenty of thoughtful posts in the main thread reconciling the man's life and actions, and even self admitted fans of his working through their feelings in the wake of his sudden loss.
 

Volimar

volunteer forum janitor
Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,073
It's about what Kobe Bryant admitted to doing. Can we please stop using the "allegations" wording when we have his own words admitting to it?

People keep getting caught up on this. He never admitted to raping her. He very carefully said that he understood that she believed their consensual sexual encounter was non consensual. Legally, it was a difference of opinion as far as Kobe's position on it was. I'm not attacking you, I just want to make clear that he never took the step that people are giving him credit for.
 

TheGhost

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
17,472
Long Island
I just feel like this discussion could have been going on for years now in a rather large way and it hasn’t. Especially since this was #metoo before #metoo It took his death to bring it back up though.

Does his death erase it? Absolutely not, but you’re not going to get a productive conversation from people until after the man is buried and the raw emotions of losing him settle down. Right now it looks like people antagonizing others. Are people going to attack all these ball players and the league and Mark Cuban for paying respect to the man, or they going to attack people who on any other day they would consider a ally?

did Kobe rape that girl like a mugger in the alley type of way? No, and i think that’s the problem, that’s how people associate rape. Kobe thought he had consent but he didn’t. by definition that is rape. I’m not denying he did it, but the public let him off the hook for that and people probably forgot about it And forgave him.

there is a time to discuss it, this thread is for level headed people to discuss it in a controlled environment. But outside of this forum? Where there are no rules and punishment? Yeah i don’t see those conversations going well. At least not right now. I don’t think it’s something you can discuss with out a heated argument until some time has passed.

TLDR - this thread is probably the only place on the internet this can be discussed civilly.
 

Salsanta1373

Member
Apr 6, 2019
83
User Banned (2 Months): Ignoring Staff Post, Trolling in a Sensitive Topic, Account in Junior Phase
do you think this is an accurate analogy to what’s happening right now though?
Why not, people gather to the center to grief, like how people gather to the thread, so answer the question, would you go to the Staple center yesterday and bring up the rape?
would you do this thing
no i aint playing no damn hypothetical with you
ole "let me play devil's advocate" ass
Would you, you did answer the question.
I not playing devil advocate, I am try to see people social ability to deal with people that are grieving. I would like an answer, I will try not to judge you.
 

fuchsdh

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,940
I'm fine with there being two separate threads, one being the obituary thread and one being a thread regarding his rape accusation.

The thing is for anyone who followed the Lakers, the NBA, or Kobe's career we all know about the rape accusation and everything surrounding it. Going into a thread where people are mourning after a tragic accident that killed 9 people is in poor taste. For the people who followed his career and his life seen him take a path to redemption (at least in his eyes) and genuinely be better.

No one has forgot about the victim and no one is excusing what happened in the past. I just think taking a victory lap over people mourning is pathetic.
Many people don’t follow the Lakers closely or have recall of stories from nearly two decades ago. Most people just know him as a famous person.
 

Gentlemen

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,756
Calling Kobe a "rapist" is not raising awareness. He was never convicted of rape in a court of law.
Most rapists aren't even succesfully prosecuted. Expecting a prosecution before the label sticks is counterproductive and nedlessly dismissive of what victims go through, let alone the targets of harassment stemming from this pointless discussion-murdering armchair "WELL AKCTHUALLY" lawyering
 

Wazzy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,636
Would y’all feel any differently if you knew the people who’s comments came across abrasively were rape victims themselves?
I've read victims thoughts who were not comfortable with the case being brought up the day of due to innocents also being involved and my friend and mother who were both victims of rape also thought it was wrong.