1. TheIlliterati

    TheIlliterati
    Member

    I don't "feel bad about myself". I love animals. I just don't think they are protected class. They can and should be humanely killed and eaten. You say you aren't obnoxious or display a morally superior attitude but then you proceed to post the exact opposite.
     
  2. Tetrinski

    Tetrinski
    Member

    Sugar and carbohydrates being bad don't make meat good. So much for methodology, perhaps you should remind yourself the principles of correlation ship. By the way, when you look at those studies, look at the lobbies behind. Common.

    Also, you have quoted me 5 times within ten minutes. Perhaps you could have spent this time doing something more productive like emailing the world health organization to explain to them how wrong they are on their recommendations? If you have some extra time, perhaps you could get in touch with the Australian Cancer Society, tell them all they did wrong when they linked 1/6 new cases of bowel cancer with red and processet meat? I mean, I'm just a guy on a forum but perhaps they can do something to help all these stupid vegans killing themselves and dying at a young age while the rest of the world are meat eating athletes.
     
  3. Lol I love how you seem to be arguing that to eat meat is to live off of meat. That people who eat meat and are INCREDIBLY healthy also don’t have a balanced diet of vegetables, fruits, etc. it’s funny to me.
     
  4. I'm cool with vegans, do your thing. However don't push your agenda on me or pretend to be superior. Then you're just asking to wake the asshole inside me.
     
  5. Apeach

    Apeach
    Member

    You ignored the environmental impact?

    The morality may be subjective but at the same time you have to take ignorance into consideration. If people had to see the animals being slaughtered in such a brutal manner, I think many people would have other thoughts.
    Meat consumption is causing lots of harm to the environment. That’s a fact. I think it’s stupid to argue for everyone to be a vegan, but at the very least we have to take steps to improve. Everyone should reduce their meat consumption.

    Also, I think many people overstate the importance of meat. If you cut back, you realize you never really needed the amount you were eating to begin with. We have basically been programmed to be as wasteful as possible.
     
  6. And many wouldn’t...hunters kill their own animals, skin them, clean them, and either butcher themselves or take to a butcher. The hunters I know are some of the most environmentally conscious people and appreciative of meat because they kill the animal.

    As to the environment, every human contributes to global warming in some way. Just by shutting and using the toilet we contribute. Having cell phones. Using cars or buses. Etc. we prioritize what we will and will not do without. Some choose to give up meat, fantastic. Some choose to ride their bike instead of using a car, fantastic. I don’t feel bad about eating meat at all.
     
  7. Zefah

    Zefah
    Member

    What? You quoted me twice and I quoted you three times (four if you count the single post I split up for convenience). Why are you even bringing that up or telling me to contact the organizations that I care very little about? Is this some kind of defer to authority thing? What I'm telling you, whether you care or not, is that all of these studies do not look at meat consumption in isolation. They are not controlled, because to do so would be prohibitively expensive. I will certainly recognize that typical "don't give a fuck" diets are bad for people and also happen to be full of meat for the most part. That says nothing about the significance of the meat alone on the overall diet, just that it certainly doesn't protect from cancer in these people.

    And, yeah, of course you always look at where the funding came from with any study. That goes without saying.

    I never said that sugar and carbohydrates being bad make meat good. What makes meat good is that it is extremely nutritious and fulfilling and requires almost no processing to consume.
     
  8. just admit you don't care about the environment or treating animals humanely.
     
  9. I have tried cutting back and actually can not operate on fruits and vegetables and.
     
  10. Sure as soon as you give up the decide you are using to post on, the car you drive or stop taking the bus. Sell your TV and other electronics. And move out into the desert living in a hut using fire for warmth.

    Because if you’re not you apparently don’t care about the environment either. Asked on your own argument.
     
  11. Apeach

    Apeach
    Member

    But the problem is that we have industrialized it to the point where it’s disgusting. The animals are often treated brutally and basically tortured. It doesn’t make sense to simply look the other way. At the very least push for more humane farms.

    You’re right that everyone has an impact in some way, but it’s one us as a society to do what we can. More and more, people have been encouraged to reduce their gas emissions. I’m not sure why meat reduction shouldn’t also be encouraged. At the very least the problem needs to be put into the public eye.
    You must be a very small minority. The large majority of people can do just fine, if not be healthier, on a vegetarian diet.
     
  12. KillLaCam

    KillLaCam
    Member

    It might be because I don't live in the US so they might eat a little bit of meat in comparison to the US. but going by this average life expectancy of 2015 chart thing, atleast 3 of the top 5 life expectancy countries dont have a mostly vegetable diet at all.

    I'm not sure how the diet is in Monaco and San Mariano is though. They might eat that way.
     
  13. collige

    collige
    Member

    To quote back from page 2:
     
  14. 1. More and more farms are popping up that treat their animals much better than the mass meat companies which I agree should be shut down. Buy local from butchers that have deep relationships with their sources. It’s more expensive but so worth it.

    2. I’m all for reducing the amount of meat we consume. And for educating the public about the conditions of the big meat manufacturers and praising the family run farms and butchers that do better.
     
  15. Let’s say for argument sake that is true. AND? DOesnt mean you shouldn’t give up the things I mentioned if you truly cared about the environment it’s like saying if you rob one house it’s ok because atleast you didn’t rob 10.

    Take care of your own shit before you go using a ridiculous measuring stick for the rest of us.
     
  16. deal! we'll both live lives of temperance.
     
  17. jwk94

    jwk94
    Member

    Dude, this is not the way to encourage people to be vegans.
     
  18. I already do
     
  19. Tetrinski

    Tetrinski
    Member

    A few months ago, a journalist infiltrated a pig farm in Spain. It belonged to El Pozo, the biggest meat company in Europe, which distributes worldwide. The images were horrible, beyond description. There are many documentaries like that. However, this one aired on public TV on prime time. Millions of people in Spain saw it. The social pressure was so big that some supermarket chains dropped completely El Pozo products. It really hurt a company that seemed untouchable just hours earlier.

    It's early to measure the impacts of this documentary in Spain and the way we eat, but I think it proves one thing: many people would change their behavior if they had more information. When they decide to eat meat, they don't do it with all the information that there is. That is not a free desition. Meat lobbies are going to fight against our right to know.

    It wasn't until recently that we started to seriously investigate the health effects of meat consumption. The same with its correlation with greenhouse emissions, water scarcity and deforestation. The situation of farm animals is not the same as a hundred years ago due to massive industrial farming. There is a lot of green washing and misinformation. For instance, a lot of people who eat free-run eggs wouldn't if they knew what happens to the male chicks when they are born. Sure, others don't care, but everyone deserves to know in order to make informed desitions. The same way that many won't give a shit, many of us will rather get mad at how much effort has gone into keeping the truth from us, at what cost and for what reasons.

    A lot of people who complain about annoying vegans don't realize that I'm not telling them to be vegan, but to be aware of the consequences of their actions. I believe that knowing is a responsibility that we all share but many decide to ignore.
     
  20. saenima

    saenima
    Member

    Alec and Darren exemplify that first sentence. The amount of self righteousness and vain wokeness is off the charts.
     
  21. Amiibola

    Amiibola
    Member

    The moment an ex-friend of mine forced her vegan diet to her pets (2 cats and 1 dog) agaisnt her vet's advice, with the 3 of them falling stick as a consequence, was the day i lost respect for vegans

    Eat whatever you want, you can even get to try your friends and family some vegan food and bring them into the crowd, but for fucks sake leave animals and babies alone you shithead
     
  22. Even when I ate meat multiple times per day, I knew there were major ethical problems with it. I admired vegans and I fully acknowledged I wasn't acting in accordance with my principles, but it was too convenient/tasty. I eat a largely plant-based diet now, but I still have meat at restaurants several times per month. None of us is perfect, and I wish people would just accept that rather than rationalizing their support of the meat industry.

    I mean, most of us could be giving to charity more as well, or driving less; there's a lot of stuff we could do to live more ethically. I don't know why it is that when it comes to this one specific area, people refuse to admit that some people are making more ethical choices than they are. Just embrace your imperfection and keep trying to be better in small ways.
     
  23. Tetrinski

    Tetrinski
    Member

    This is the sixth time you quote me, I can see it in my notifications.

    If you want to dismiss the world health organization, good luck.

    Meat needs lots of processing dude. You need to kill and chop up the animal. You need to freeze it, salt it, smoke it or press the blood out unless you eat it right after killing the animal. Meat turns brown after cutting it, you need to add chemicals or radiation to keep it red (unless you live in the EU, where radiation is banned). And you ALWAYS need to cook it. All of that is processing the food, and it's assuming we are talking of a simple steak. An apple is an example of food that doesn't need processing (even though most apples you can buy have been waxed).

    No animosity here: you should research into what you eat.
     
  24. RedShift

    RedShift
    Member

    Right, so because it's impossible to live a perfectly moral life we should all give up any attempt to be better.

    You don't really believe this do you?
     
  25. DeeDogg

    DeeDogg
    Banned Member

    Here's why:
    [​IMG]

    eat whatever you want but dont shove it in my face and judge what I eat and tell me its "wrong"
     
  26. Zoc

    Zoc
    Member

    I agree with all this, actually. Also, if anything is evidence of toxic masculinity, it’s the taunting and claims of “I’lll eat two steaks to make up for you”.
     
  27. Feral

    Feral
    Member

    vegans, furries, juggalos, cuckolding enthusiasts, gamers, GAM3RZ, weeaboos, people that marry realdolls, people that travel across the country to get a selfie with their favorite influencers

    which of these groups can we joke about? None? No more making fun of anyone?
     
  28. collige

    collige
    Member

    The point is that comparing the meat industry to other things that contribute to climate change is a false equivalency since the former has a much more disproportionate effect on the environment. As the link said, it's not just about reducing carbon footprints either like the other things you mentioned are.
     
  29. Tetrinski

    Tetrinski
    Member

    What insecurities make you want to make fun of other people? Tell us about you, so that we can ridiculize you and your personal choices. It'll be fun.
     
  30. Feral

    Feral
    Member

    but wouldn't that imply that literally all comedians are insecure? Or do different rules apply if you're a comedian? Is it okay to laugh to jokes that make fun of other people with strange views or hobbies, or only if we feel really bad about it
     
  31. Tetrinski

    Tetrinski
    Member

    We all have insecurities.

    The comedians I like don't make fun of other people. Good comedians own up to their own insecurities and make fun of themselves. You do you.
     
  32. collige

    collige
    Member

    This is wildy OT, but I think it really just depends on the nature of the joke. Laughing at someone vs. laughing with them, making a joke about a group vs making a joke at the expense of one.
     
  33. It's amazing how mad you personally are that I'm perfectly cool and supportive of vegans' choices, but don't myself see the same moral quandary.

    Even when I tell you multiple times that I'm cool with your choice and nobody's changing mine, you just can't help but dig at me.

    And this is exactly why vegans get an unfair rep. Doesn't make it right for other people to rag on your choices or pull that dumb "hurr durr more steak for me" pettiness, but it is still why the rep is there.
     
  34. XenodudeX

    XenodudeX
    Member

    Taste.

    Texture.

    Affordability.

    Give me those things and I'll be on board. Until then, I honestly don't care.
     
  35. JustinP

    JustinP
    Member

    I figured this was a given. Are we not animals? Or are you questioning the value of all known life including humans?

    This isn't a radical test of ethics. Would it be bad if someone did it to you? Then maybe you shouldn't do it to others. Unless you think humans are gods, why is it so ridiculous to imagine something more intelligent than ourselves? Why would the ethics surrounding the way a superior being treats humans be different than the ethics of how humans treat other animals? Is there something special about humans that would justify drawing the line separating valuable life and worthless life at us?

    I'm not relying on this argument as the sole vehicle to establish any and all possible consequences. I'm simply using it to offer a perspective that humans rarely consider because they mostly just assume their current position on earth is a given as some sort of universal truth. Some perfect examples from people in this thread talking about how they like eating meat and, hey, it's natural (on earth) for animals to eat other animals so I guess we have no choice but to use lions as our guide to ethics! Why is it ok to check our ethics by climbing down the food chain but not ok to check our ethics by climbing up the food chain?

    Unless aliens suddenly land on earth, the superior beings we're talking about will most likely be derivative of us, even if they eventually become incomprehensibly complex. That doesn't mean we'll have control over them, merely that we'll influence them somehow -- and it's in our own self interest that we try to influence them in ways that don't result in them treating us like we treat other animals.

    But this is really besides the point. Because even if we have no control over the development of superior beings, we recognize the value in ourselves and would like to be treated better than we treat other animals whether it's something we created or some random aliens that come to visit. And there's not really much reason to believe that other animals don't feel the same way -- that they value themselves and don't like to be treated poorly. If ethics is simply "whatever the thing at the top of the food chain decides," then we're basically welcoming whatever comes next to treat us like food and/or pets or energy sources or whatever, and for some reason I doubt we're going to feel like that's very ethical of them to treat us like that!
     
  36. JustinP

    JustinP
    Member

    I'm not mad at you and I'm not even vegan. I have crohns and it makes it hard to find stuff I can eat, especially when going out -- but I admire vegans and aspire to that (my staple food is vegan) because I think they have the more ethical position.

    I just don't find your argument very compelling and pointed out why. When I eat meat I don't try to kid myself by telling myself it's ok because lions do it or because I can outsmart a chicken I can do whatever I want to it.
     
  37. Falconbox

    Falconbox
    Member

    This right here is why people hate on vegans.
     
  38. thepotatoman

    thepotatoman
    Member

    People get unusually defensive because veganism is one of the few issues where there's a pretty direct line between the actions of the individual and suffering of sentient life. I don't think it's hard for people to understand that a life without meat is very possible for many people, and that there's nothing natural or right about the factory farm industry that is the vast majority of meat they buy.

    Doesn't mean it's not difficult to change eating habits overnight, but I'd be a lot happier if people admit they can do better, and do what they can to slowly ease back on the amount of meat they buy, instead of the defensive hatred you usually see.

    I would just encourage people that are regretful meat eaters to keep pushing themselves to progressively eat less meat.
     
  39. darz1

    darz1
    Member

    Im a meat eater but honestly never understood why people go so hard on vegans. Sure theres some militant vegans but they are considerably small in number compared to both the rest of the vegan population and also compared to the amount on meat eaters who feel the need to defend their diet when in the presence of vegans. Most of the vegans i have met have been Black, Brown or Asian. I have met a few white vegans also and they seemed ok, even if a little hippyish.

    Mostly if the topic of diet comes up its an interesting convo. But i have also witnessed time and time again people butt in with the "but what do you eat if not meat?" "Its not healthy to be vegan" "people need meat" and "i could never do that" comments, dispite the fact that a large portion of the world is at least vegetarian. It is mostly uneccissarily agressive and completely uncalled for since the vegans arent trying to change anyones diet most of the time, mostly they are just existing and being vegan. The vegan hate really just seems unnecessary in most instances.

    Yeah this is what I see honestly. Far more obnixious meat eaters than obnoxious vegans.
     
  40. Yeah let me just crack a beer with the cow in my yard. I’m sure it’ll appreciate me treating it like a fellow human.
     
  41. It doesn't really make sense to talk about humans existing in a food chain. We are not consumers in a natural ecological system where food animals are producers, we have completely surpassed this point with our industrialised agricultural way of life. You are not an apex predator when you roam the aisles of your local supermarket. Moreover, the concept of a food chain is descriptive, not prescriptive - it just looks at what animals do, not whether moral agents should be doing those things. If the point of saying we are top of the food chain is to point out that we eat animals, it cannot be used as justification for eating animals without creating a circular argument (in the same way, as saying 'It's ok to eat meat because we are omnivores' is circular). I really can't see how this argument comes down to anything other than 'might makes right' but please clarify your point if you believe I have missed your intention.

    If the suffering of others is something you care about (and you should care about it if you care about your own suffering) then you should want to minimise the suffering you cause. In the case of animals, it's easier than ever to avoid animal products which cause the death and suffering of billions of animals (trillions including sea creatures). Whether you should choose dairy or soy milk has no relation to the extent some humans might be suffering because of some other product you bought earlier in the day.
     
  42. TheEnd

    TheEnd
    Member

    Lack of self awareness is astonishing.
     
  43. Treating something humanely doesn't mean treating it like a human.

    humane
    hjʊˈmeɪn/
    adjective
    1. 1.
      having or showing compassion or benevolence.
     
  44. Mivey

    Mivey
    Member

    I have no issue personally with whatever moral choices someone makes in their live with regard to their diet. I'd even be fine with discussing why I don't personally agree with them, as long as it's a open and rational debate. Put if someone start lecturing me - unwilling to listen to other viewpoints, yeah, I don't need that crap.
    Yikes!
     
  45. KelticNight

    KelticNight
    Member

    I don't care what you do or don't eat, just don't be a cunt about it.

    Were "militant vegetarians" ever a thing? I can't remember them inciting as much ire as vegans do.
     
  46. PhazonBlonde

    PhazonBlonde
    Member

    I’m a weeabo you can make fun of me if you like. I think everyone knows furries will always be made fun of; even furries make fun of themselves (like weeabo most the time)

    Also feel free to make fun of anyone using l337 5p34k in 2018; please
     
  47. Apeach

    Apeach
    Member

    Yeah, that always makes me laugh. There are people who seriously believe that you’ll starve if you go without eating meat. It’s crazy how much the importance of meat is overstated in western countries to the point of wastefulness.
     
  48. I'm not vegan, but imo many of the arguments made in this thread would see those making them dogpiled or even banned if the topic was different. Especially the "this is just my personal choice, you can't actually argue which is ethically preferable" ones. I imagine there's a lot of doublethink going on there. Then again, the reduction of the animal products industry to a consumerist choice is kind of at the heart of the issue, so I guess it's to be expected.
     
  49. Feral

    Feral
    Member

    I'm a proponent of making fun of everyone and everything as long as it's not hateful

    it's absolutely unrealistic to expect people to only be super nice to each other all the time and never make a mean joke or snide remark about the weird things others are really into even if they are clearly funny
     
  50. nekkid

    nekkid
    Member

    I thought the whole obnoxious vegan thing was a myth until I met some.