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TheSyldat

Banned
Nov 4, 2018
1,127
Lots and lots of years of legal precedent and a physical good. There's definitely a difference. I'm speaking from a US point of view, but the "First Sale Doctrine" makes it clear that purchasing a copyrighted good grants the purchaser the right to resell that copy, and only that particular copy. So a pretty big difference, at least in the eyes of US law.
If only the US could add to their copyright laws catalogue maintenance duties and that any failings on their part makes the pieces not maintained on catalogue fair game for other publishers to republish and make money off of even if not yet considered public domain...
All of a sudden you'd see a buuuuttt load of remasters and re releases and not just in video games ...

I'm just saying guys it's about damn fucking time you have that conversation with your law makers ...
 

hibikase

User requested ban
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
6,820
I mostly agree with you OP.

However the blanket statement that "all grey area preservation is morally wrong" kinda fails when dealing with games that can't be purchased today. Even if you buy a used physical copy, the original rights holder makes no money from that transaction.

In my opinion there should be ROM sites dedicated to only carrying games that are out of print.

And as many people in this thread already mentioned, this is what Frank Cifaldi (founder of the VGHF) believes as well.
 

Scherzo

Member
Nov 27, 2017
1,053
I guess to me I just don't buy that ROMs of 20 year old games is this 'big bad' threat to the game industry; it strikes me as game publishers trying to squeeze every penny out of the 'value' of the IPs they own.
 

TheSyldat

Banned
Nov 4, 2018
1,127
In fact the original Last Supper is in constant struggle to not die basically. Da Vinci tried out some different ways of doing fresco's and like a lot of his paint experiments that bucked conventional wisdom.... turns out conventional wisdom had a point. His approach resulted in lots of very fragile paintings and almost all of his originals are gone. We have a very good idea of what the Mona Lisa looked like in its prime is a copy

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/99/Gioconda_(copia_del_Museo_del_Prado_restaurada).jpg

This works because the copy was painted using conventional paint and technique known to last so we can restore it safely. If we only had Da Vinci's then we would never have this image since restoring it would probably make it fall to pieces since its so fragile.
Heck in the case of the Mona Lisa even the one exposed in the Louvre is not the original one but a copy most of the time, that's how fragile the original is.

As a frenchie I have seen my fair share of documentaries about the Louvre's ways of operating. And last documentary being made the director of collections straight up admitted that "Only a hundreth of all toursits who came to see the Mona Lisa saw the real one , these days she stays in restoration longer than she stays on display" .
 

Deleted member 48828

Account closed at user request
Banned
Oct 21, 2018
731
Wrong. It doesn't matter how legal your organization is if it doesn't actually preserve video games, and there are plenty out there that are essentially held hostage by their publishers thus unable to be preserved without piracy.

Why do people need to be told that just because something is official doesn't mean it's actually effective at its job?
 

Sheepinator

Member
Jul 25, 2018
28,000
I guess to me I just don't buy that ROMs of 20 year old games is this 'big bad' threat to the game industry; it strikes me as game publishers trying to squeeze every penny out of the 'value' of the IPs they own.
Which is their right. The problem is only a small fraction of those games get re-released. Also the way Nintendo does it sucks. I think you have to re-purchase Virtual Store games on a later console, and soon they're dropping support for it, is that right? And their mini consoles aren't expandable?
 

WetWaffle

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,603
Which is their right. The problem is only a small fraction of those games get re-released. Also the way Nintendo does it sucks. I think you have to re-purchase Virtual Store games on a later console, and soon they're dropping support for it, is that right? And their mini consoles aren't expandable?
That's the thing, it's all on the publishers to do something. I guarantee that if those thousands of old games were readily available for modern play and were priced accordingly, people would gladly buy them. Look at the other shit people buy. If there's a market for horse dlc, there's a market for old games. Publishers just gotta make the effort.
 

pants

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
3,182
Paintings, buildings, film, books, and other works of art are not preserved through illegal distribution. For example, we don't create forgeries of paintings and then distribute them in order to ensure that the original is preserved. That would not make sense and would only dilute the value of the original work.

Rather, legitimate organizations are formed to preserve such works. Examples of such organizations include libraries, museums, architectural landmark preservation foundations, public domain databases, and film preservation foundations.

So I'm only responding to this section to point out that this is a fundamental misunderstanding and oversimplification of art history and art preservation.

There have been plenty of times where questionably unethical choices have been made in order to preserve art that has been kept from the public. In some cases it is only because of these choices (literal theft, smuggling, counterfeiting, unauthorized reproduction, etc) that any of these works remain accessible or survive in some form.

In general I agree with your statement, though, in that we should be supporting "legitimate" means of preservation and doing right by the original artists and creators wherever possible. However there will always be a need to preserve art in less than savory ways.
 

Arthoneceron

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,024
Minas Gerais, Brazil
This is such an absent-minded comment. Not art? Please..

It wasn't clear that I was using the same hallucinated argument of the OP because I wanted to force a debacle over what is art, what is not and what it needs to be preserved?

If "this way" is the solely way to preserve an work from, let's say Gunpei Yokoi, and the whole others aren't allowed because interests of some company, and "this way" is the worst way possible because it restricts a large, probably the biggest part of the people interested on see, feel and understand the concept of it, the work probably shouldn't be preserved.
 

Sheepinator

Member
Jul 25, 2018
28,000
That's the thing, it's all on the publishers to do something. I guarantee that if those thousands of old games were readily available for modern play and were priced accordingly, people would gladly buy them. Look at the other shit people buy. If there's a market for horse dlc, there's a market for old games. Publishers just gotta make the effort.
Agreed. The other problem is it may be not be clear who owns some of the older games, such as old arcade games from companies long since defunct. I see some ready made devices on sale with packed in games and I wonder if all of them are 100% legit, or if they are counting on some games not having anyone to defend the trademark or try to recoup royalties.
 

nded

Member
Nov 14, 2017
10,573
Yes and no. It's true that a lot of people just don't want to pay for video games, but faced with the industry's indifference to the matter it's kind of the best we have.
 

Krvavi Abadas

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
1,254
Videoland
I live in a 3rd world country when piracy is more common than you could imagine. But I don't pirate a PC game since 2009 probably, because Steam, GOG and Origin are soooo good. Yep, even decades old games.

Otherwise, good luck finding a way to play something like No One Lives Forever legally.

Yeah, about that...

As i said, we're clearly reaching the point where anything is possible to bring back if you believe in it.

And he acknowledges that his own work owes something to piracy.



We can keep going back and forth with Cifaldi's tweets, but the point is this is nowhere as simple as OP wants to make it and that pirates have had an important role in preserving games.


I'm not denying that Frank Cifadali got his start in the emulation scene. He did run Lost Levels, after all.

But the point is that you'd be better off moving onto more official territory now like he currently is. Preserving video games ≠ just dumping the ROM and moving on. You got to preserve everything else relating to the game too. Concept Art/Pitch Documents
C_iWquyXYAAUxxB.jpg

Early Prototypes.
GunstarItemRoomSample.png

and even advertising.


Having official support, be it through donations to your non-profit, or actually bundling them in your re-releases. Greatly simplifies this process, you may still have to deal with devs who inexplicably decided to throw this stuff away, but it's still possible they saved some things.
 

Inugami

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,995
Video game preservation is a euphemism for "I want to be able to play the game 10, 20, 30 years from now without spending an insane amount of money".

As always, piracy is a distribution problem, not a legal one.

If Nintendo released their retro games on widely available platforms at reasonable prices, there wouldn't be ROM sites.

Honestly, this is my take as well. Why can't Nintendo's online service have every Nintendo published game from day one, with them adding other publishers over time after they've made some deals?

Music piracy disappeared almost overnight once music could be had via cheap downloads of specific songs and music broadcasting services. Meanwhile, video piracy is starting to ramp back up now that content creators are making it more and more difficult to have all of their content at a fair price in a reasonable way.

There is just no reason why Nintendo has to go down the route it currently is going.
 

WetWaffle

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,603
Agreed. The other problem is it may be not be clear who owns some of the older games, such as old arcade games from companies long since defunct. I see some ready made devices on sale with packed in games and I wonder if all of them are 100% legit, or if they are counting on some games not having anyone to defend the trademark or try to recoup royalties.
True, there are games in which the "ownership" is muddled, it's those type of games that are the most at risk of disappearing into the void. If heavy digging is done and there's no set owner, then my opinion is that those games should exist publicly for everyone, like an archive or something.
 

AdolRed

Banned
Jan 12, 2018
269
United States
Is your problem the legality, or the fact that developers might lose out on profit from the accessibility of their back catalog through legal means?

If it's the former, remember how many awful things have been legal at some point in our history, and how many morally correct things have been illegal until the right group of people stepped in

If it's the latter, remember capitalism is a joke and corporations deserve no sympathy

Thank you
 

GamerJM

Member
Nov 8, 2017
15,629
I agree but not really for the same reasons. I'm fine with games being preserved illegally because corporations don't care about preserving game history. The thing is that this happens behind the scenes on private IRC channels, and ROM distribution sites don't really have much to do with it. If you want to play old games, you can still buy them and the hardware required to play them on eBay. It's expensive, sure, but so is something like an Xbox One X. And I actually do kinda think that scalpers deserve the money tbh, I respect their hustle. And I actually do think that basically taking sales from scalpers can be argued to be morally dubious, though I wouldn't always agree with it. But I guess the point that I'm trying to make here is that I don't really see pirating an old out of print game to be too different from pirating a currently in print game, "it's expensive" is not really a fair excuse when modern games are also expensive. I'm actually personally morally okay with people who are not in a good place financially pirating games in general though (though I would never do it personally).

And yeah, this won't matter once the hardware starts to fail but aside from really niche examples we're not there yet for the most part, you can still buy functioning PC Engine CD games.
 
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Deltadan

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,307
I'm seeing a lot of gatekeeping in this thread.

"Well rom/pirate sites don't do a good enough job preserving games; they don't even preserve the manual, art work , and prototypes!"

Having copies of those other things are important, but that doesn't invalidate the existence of the site. Having copies of anything is important to survival of information, the more copies we have, the more likely it will survive. We shouldn't stop sites just we think they are not good enough at preserving it.

Many Commodore 64 games are only around today because of pirates, it's why they all still have "warez" intros.
Sure it's not perfect preservation, but I'd rather have that then not have them at all.

"Well we should preserve games, but only the ones that really need it"

Who decides what does or doesn't need to be preserved?

Who determines when companies have done enough to preserve games?

It's impossible to control these things and it almost always leads to bitter gridlock and debate. Meanwhile time moves on and the information is slowly lost.
 

BlackJace

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
5,451
All this energy toward preservation is being misused in my opinion. There should be a greater movement to push for copyright law reform. Public domain is too long, and there are certainly corporate entities that are actively fighting to extend it so that it is essentially useless (*cough* Disney).

A lot of people use the preservation argument to hide their piracy behind. I don't know how that's even debatable. You aren't preserving Breath of the Wild or any iteration of Mario or Tetris, nor are you fooling anyone. There's probably like 7 people that truly want to play an obscure NES movie tie in game, and acting like its unavailability is some tragedy kinda makes me want to roll my eyes.

I know you can't openly admit to pirating here, but at least be honest with yourself lmao.

I'm of the opinion that somethings are simply lost to time, and that's just how it is, but hey. I'm not going to knock someone for thinking otherwise.

Publishers need to do more to make legacy titles accessible, damn it. Copyright laws need to be less shitty, damn it.

I feel like I can be of the above opinions while at the same time seeing the vast majority of the proponents of game preservation as wanting free access to games.

Also, good Lord, people need to get off Professor Beef 's back on their comment on seeing games as art. It's incredibly short-sighted to suggest they shouldn't be a mod just because they don't see it as an artform. As if having passion and genuine interest isn't enough L M A O.
 

Heromanz

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
20,202
All this energy toward preservation is being misused in my opinion. There should be a greater movement to push for copyright law reform. Public domain is too long, and there are certainly corporate entities that are actively fighting to extend it so that it is essentially useless (*cough* Disney).

A lot of people use the preservation argument to hide their piracy behind. I don't know how that's even debatable. You aren't preserving Breath of the Wild or any iteration of Mario or Tetris, nor are you fooling anyone. There's probably like 7 people that truly want to play an obscure NES movie tie in game, and acting like its unavailability is some tragedy kinda makes me want to roll my eyes.

I know you can't openly admit to pirating here, but at least be honest with yourself lmao.

I'm of the opinion that somethings are simply lost to time, and that's just how it is, but hey. I'm not going to knock someone for thinking otherwise.

Publishers need to do more to make legacy titles accessible, damn it. Copyright laws need to be less shitty, damn it.

I feel like I can be of the above opinions while at the same time seeing the vast majority of the proponents of game preservation as wanting free access to games.

Also, good Lord, people need to get off Professor Beef 's back on their comment on seeing games as art. It's incredibly short-sighted to suggest they shouldn't be a mod just because they don't see it as an artform. As if having passion and genuine interest isn't enough L M A O.
I mean it's probably way easier and cheaper to put ROMs online then it is to go against multibillion-dollar conglomerates in the court of law.

And nothing should be lost in time that's our history our culture. If we had the capability to save it then we should save it. Copyright or no copyright.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,844
IMO - if a game is not available for sale anywhere - then no one is losing anything - and courts should throw out claims as a nuisance.

That would prompt companies like Nintendo/Sony to keep supporting their legacy titles.
 

Toxi

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
17,547
I see we've reached the point where people will jump down your throat for emulation of any kind.
 

Deleted member 29464

Account closed at user request
Banned
Nov 1, 2017
3,121
I feel like in a sense they preserve niche games with the benefit of actually being playable and accessible to the public. While people aren't "entitled" to them and probably have other (probably quite expensive) means of playing those games, it just isn't that much of a "sin" to people to just download it and experience it themselves. I imagine this would also be the same for listening to old music or watching old films they were curious about, and then of course books is a lot easier with the lack of copyright for many old titles.

I think preservation should be more than preserving art for the few.
 

Zen Hero

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,634
I do feel like the real root solution to this problem is better copyright law. If games were to enter the public domain in a reasonable amount of time, then we would have no problem preserving them. And not only preserving them: also making them widely available to be enjoyed by everyone. That's actually a really important part of "preservation". Preservation isn't just that literally 1 copy still exists. It also means that the game is available for people to enjoy it.
 

sredgrin

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
12,276
I don't know how anyone can take the OP seriously when he's using things like buildings in his examples. At least stop being disingenuous and stick to comparable media like books, film, and music.

There are probably dozens, if not hundreds of re-released products, including some released this year, that are really only existing because someone pirated them a decade or 2 ago. We can't just magic up some fantasy land where video game preseveration and libraries are a real practical thing. The industry doesn't really care. Most consumers don't, and the rest of the non-gaming world obviously doesn't either. Your solutions are frankly laughable.
 
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noyram23

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
9,372
At least there's a thread now for peeps who shouts 'but piracy!' on every emulator thread :)
 

newtonlod

Member
Oct 27, 2017
658
Brazil
It's really wild how a forum that on its face seems so adamantly in favor of intersectionality and standing up for the oppressed will blindly defend capitalism because 'it's the rules'

Agree with all your posts, and the quoted one is probably the best. Also, it seems it's really hard for some people to see the reality of other fellow humans that live in places (aka third world country) that having a hobby like a videogame is something hard and not only financially, but the accessibility isn't easy. If someone wants to play something like the PS2 version of Dragon Quest 8 and lives in USA can simply get a copy on ebay for 30 dollars. And maybe you can even find a copy on a store close to your home.

Here where I live I will pay something like 200 bucks on my currency (our monthly minimal wage is 950 bucks, btw, so yeah, like 1/5 of our salary for a 2004 game) for a copy of it.

I just want the ability to pay 30 dollars (120 bucks on my currency, still kinda expensive don't you think?) to Square and play it on my PS4 or PC.
 

HardRojo

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,121
Peru
It is mostly Nintendo fans who are mad about emulators and ROMs, are you so afraid of Nintendo losing some money? I'm buying their hardware and I'm buying their software, heck I just got Let's Go for my Switch, but holy fuck do I wish they went for stronger hardware next time (they won't), the texture work on Let's Go is atrocious, not to mention some of the models.
Also, you can't compare the conservation of physical goods to digital ones, how convenient of you.
 

AppleKid

Member
Feb 21, 2018
2,526
I guess I sort of agree with the preservation aspect, but I don't understand the hate for ROM sites hosting games that are 10+ years old, no longer distributed, and not available for purchase on any digital store. The devs won't be making any money off these second-hand purchases.

I honestly feel just as guilty buying a used copy of a game as illegally downloading since neither method is me paying the people who created it lol

And what if you buy the game new but also download it from a ROM site for convenience? Is that frowned upon in the same manner? I used to do that a lot in the DS days so that I could keep all my games on a flash cart and not have to carry each cartridge with me. I later realized I could have dumped the ROMs myself, but back then I had no clue and using ROM sites was easy enough. I still paid for a new copy of every I game I downloaded (shrug)
 

Optimator

Member
May 5, 2018
299
Alabama
I think copyright extensions on software needs to be reexamined actually. I see no good reason for this medium to remain copyrighted beyond the original 28 years. When something has become old enough that the copyright holder no longer wishes to make it available for sale (except begrudgingly and at such a snail's pace) then it's time to turn it over to the public domain to be freely distributed to all who wish to be enlightened by it. The only reason we have copyright is to encourage y'all to keep creating new stuff to the benefit of the public (and its domain).
 

TheSyldat

Banned
Nov 4, 2018
1,127
Agree with all your posts, and the quoted one is probably the best. Also, it seems it's really hard for some people to see the reality of other fellow humans that live in places (aka third world country) that having a hobby like a videogame is something hard and not only financially, but the accessibility isn't easy. If someone wants to play something like the PS2 version of Dragon Quest 8 and lives in USA can simply get a copy on ebay for 30 dollars. And maybe you can even find a copy on a store close to your home.

Here where I live I will pay something like 200 bucks on my currency (our monthly minimal wage is 950 bucks, btw, so yeah, like 1/5 of our salary for a 2004 game) for a copy of it.

I just want the ability to pay 30 dollars (120 bucks on my currency, still kinda expensive don't you think?) to Square and play it on my PS4 or PC.
And there even more examples like yours.
Add to that oooh geee I dunno Visual Novels depicting fellow LGBTQ characters in a positive light with a lot of good vibes that you desperatly need because right now you live in muslim majority country where merely being out of the closet even on the internet is dangerous in and off itself. So you won't be able to legally land your hands on those games legally anyway ...
Again although I do undertand the OP primary point the post is worded in such a disingenous way that it's hard to see it as anything else than some massive trolling ...
 

Aeana

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,938
Buy used or pre-owned.
And when those discs rot away from disc rot, or the systems that play them become unusable due to various real issues like capacitors leaking all over the board and damaging components, etc? Just shrug and say "well, you had to be there. too bad"? Format transfer of older games is unambiguously a good thing, and the development of hardware-agnostic emulators to play those games is, as well. Piracy is an unfortunate side effect, but I will never be sorry that someone had the foresight and passion to ensure that my favorite games will be playable forever.

I also think the hand-wringing about people pirating older games has been proven moot countless times because people fall over themselves to buy re-releases every single time. If these publishers make them available, people will buy them, even if they are available for free elsewhere. So if you're more concerned about publishers' bottom lines than the history of the medium: it's going to be okay.
 

newtonlod

Member
Oct 27, 2017
658
Brazil
And there even more examples like yours.
Add to that oooh geee I dunno Visual Novels depicting fellow LGBTQ characters in a positive light with a lot of good vibes that you desperatly need because right now you live in muslim majority country where merely being out of the closet even on the internet is dangerous in and off itself. So you won't be able to legally land your hands on those games legally anyway ...
Again although I do undertand the OP primary point the post is worded in such a disingenous way that it's hard to see it as anything else than some massive trolling ...

Good example too, this one can go totally about the inaccessibility of some games that I said. In a even more sadder way.
 

Gotdatmoney

Member
Oct 28, 2017
14,500
It's really wild how a forum that on its face seems so adamantly in favor of intersectionality and standing up for the oppressed will blindly defend capitalism because 'it's the rules'

It's not really that. The way I see it is pretty simple.

A lot of the "we need to preserve games!!!" talk you hear here is a front for "I wanna play this shit and not pay any money". There is no feasible way people are rippint all these games themselves (especially these old ass games) and then play them through emulators legally. It's not a right to play any game you want, you're not owed this and to argue that it's fundamental to the hobby is honestly just some bullshit in my eyes. No one needs to play obscure Saturn RPG that sold 1000 copies. The argument of "how else would you play it" holds no weight because you don't need to play it, it's just some shit you want and are not willing to shell out the money for. No one is entitled to play games at a price they deem reasonable. That's not how it works.

Do I personally care if people pirate games? Nope. Especially when we are talking about some old ass games that copyright owners are never going to re release. Do I find a lot of the arguments about it to be weak? Yes.

That said, you can't deny that in human history, a lot of the artistic works we enjoy today were preserved through illegal means. The original creators often don't care about the preservation of their works for future generations because they never created the work thinking about how it would be found 50 years from now. It's just the reality of the situation and as a society it is better for us that these things get reproduced illegally and 100 years later can still be accessed than disappear forever.

So we just operate in this gray area where dumping a rom and a whole bunch of people illegally playing a game trying to argue the merit holds no real legitimacy but in the end it's a bunch of old ass games where 95% of them hold no real monetary value to the copyright owner. Since the copyright owner is just going to let the shit disappear forever anyway actual cause and effect is minimal on these games being rom dumped so people freaking the fuck out about it is just dumb.
 

Gotdatmoney

Member
Oct 28, 2017
14,500
I honestly feel just as guilty buying a used copy of a game as illegally downloading since neither method is me paying the people who created it lol

Physical media can't be infinitely reproduced. One copy of a game can only be used by one person at a time and is subject to wear and tear. A digital copy is literally able to be distributed to millions of people in perfect condition at once with the same person having access to multiple copies. The whole idea of physical is that its a tangible good. The idea was never that the original creator doesn't get paid. By this logic you should never buy anything used.
 

Lothars

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
9,765
Op is wrong, it's one of those things that you may not care about game preservation but it's an extreme important thing that people are doing.
 
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