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Valdega

Banned
Sep 7, 2018
1,609
One side wants to treat PC gaming like a Console War, the other is concerned that this platform will become centralized and walled up like those consoles.

Though, homophobia is a killer and a store not seeking bigotry out or considered the possibility is a bad look.

Amazon sells Mein Kampf. It is essentially the Nazi Bible. Where's the outrage over that? Nobody cares because they understand that Amazon is a store that sells a huge variety of products and gives customers the freedom to choose what they want to buy. Steam does the same. Don't like right-wing games? Don't buy them. Filter them out. You'll never see them recommended in any of your lists. For 99.9% of Steam users, the offensive trash games might as well not exist. That's how buried they are. It's a complete non-issue unless you're specifically looking for offensive trash games.
 

GhostTrick

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,308
I hate that idiotic point of his, posted that specific line myself before in this forum, and it has a reason I'm preferring the itch store.
It's an opinion many "liberals" have in this forum as well, that deplatforming somehow doesn't work or is bad, and it's a shitty opinion. I tend to argue against them then, too.

My "support" for EGS is relative, ie, I support them over steam and gog because they harm me personally more with who they support - and because EGS now has one strike against it, Gog three, and Steam like 15. Only counting social stuff, mind, not gaming stuff, since I personally don't really care for launcher features, I mean, I like itch, and that doesn't have any features. Which is a feature in itself, just like it was in the case of Gog before they melted down.-


So when a CEO is saying a notorious racist shouldn't be deplateformed and was shadowbanned it's the same as a service being slow af to remove horrible content ?
Because one is advocating for the content to stay while the other actually removes it.
 

Brockxz

Member
Oct 31, 2017
107
Those devs speak about algorithm screwing them on Steam and Valve not doing anything for them. Let's wait when Epic Store will have about 1000+ indie games and let's see the tears of the same developers when they will finally notice their games are not that hot on ES too. That day will be the day when they maybe finally realize their games are not that appealing and that algorithm was probably right.
 

Okii

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,189
Money talks, anything else walks. I can't blame any company for going Epic exclusive, they want to make money and they make more on EGS. Steam is in every way superior to the EGS feature wise but until they lower their 30% this will keep happening.
 

Deleted member 8674

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
5,240
So what happens in a year or two when they don't have comparable features and the exclusive games are not exclusive? There's no reason to use the epic store now and there will be no reason to in a year especially once these moneyhatted games deals are done. I bet we will see Epic complaining how nobody uses their store for anything other than fortnite microtransactions.

We simply go back to Steam?
 

Crazymoogle

Game Developer
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
2,884
Asia
A couple of things I would like to see on the Epic Games Store:
  1. The ability to purchase in something other than US Dollars, or at least a live conversion rate. Because it just seems ridiculous that I have to pay a company in Switzerland USD when neither country has anything to do with the money I have to spend (and worse, it makes it difficult to judge how much, say, "$19.99USD" means)

  2. To show the amount of free hard drive space when installing a game. Seems simple; just show the amount available so I know whether I should install it to that drive or not...
 

Deleted member 41271

User requested account closure
Banned
Mar 21, 2018
2,258
So when a CEO is saying a notorious racist shouldn't be deplateformed and was shadowbanned it's the same as a service being slow af to remove horrible content ?

Because one is advocating for the content to stay while the other actually removes it.

Hatred was removed? News to me, Gabe put it back. And how about the Rape sim? Remember why steam removed it?
Here's why: "After significant fact-finding and discussion, we think 'Rape Day' poses unknown costs and risks and therefore won't be on Steam."

Too cowardly to even admit that rape glorification is a bad look - it'd be such a no-nonsense uncontroversial thing to say. And yet they can't. I'm unsure how I can ever be positive about this. And how about the transphobia, a work culture where a transgender worker was refered to as "it"? :o It's just so, so bad.

These all seem worse to me than a Scrooge McDuck parody of a CEO opining on something he's too stupid to understand and has no power to affect (thankfully).

While we're at it, how about youtube still pushing Alex-Jones like people, qanon, antivaxx, gamergate and harassment campaigns against, say, Star Wars actors? Seems a pretty big deal as well, that. Oddly ignored here, especially in the discussion of Google's new toyboy and the youtube integration for it.
 

GhostTrick

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,308
Hatred was removed? News to me, Gabe put it back. And how about the Rape sim? Remember why steam removed it?
Here's why: "After significant fact-finding and discussion, we think 'Rape Day' poses unknown costs and risks and therefore won't be on Steam."

Too cowardly to even admit that rape glorification is a bad look - it'd be such a no-nonsense uncontroversial thing to say. And yet they can't. I'm unsure how I can ever be positive about this. And how about the transphobia, a work culture where a transgender worker was refered to as "it"? :o It's just so, so bad.

These all seem worse to me than a Scrooge McDuck parody of a CEO opining on something he's too stupid to understand and has no power to affect (thankfully).

While we're at it, how about youtube still pushing Alex-Jones like people, qanon, antivaxx, gamergate and harassment campaigns against, say, Star Wars actors? Seems a pretty big deal as well, that. Oddly ignored here, especially in the discussion of Google's new toyboy and the youtube integration for it.

Yeah, it's a shitty answer and I agree on that. Hence why I question why your stance isnt the same here since you want to go on moral grounds.
 

RedOnePunch

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,628
He's a great developer and he has his reasons for feeling the way he does. He can do what is best for him as a developer and I'll do what I feel is best for me as a consumer.
 

Deleted member 41271

User requested account closure
Banned
Mar 21, 2018
2,258
Yeah, it's a shitty answer and I agree on that. Hence why I question why your stance isnt the same here since you want to go on moral grounds.

Unfortonately, in a male dominated industry, I have to expect companies to fuck up once or twice, because basic human empathy's not usually taught very well. I pretty much have to cut them out when it becomes a pattern, because if I do not, and expect 100% perfection and no dumb statement, I'm pretty much cut from any entertainment. Ethical consumption under capitalism is tough, to use that particular meme.

It's the same how I handled gog. I give these platforms three strikes, and then they're out. That's how I ended up dropping gog (and killing my account with a fairly big catalogue of games) too. They got too bad, and poof, off they go. The problem isn't one fuckup, it's a continuous pattern of those, and so far, I can see two stores with that. Epic still has two left. And itch, miraculously, all three. Sheesh, they're really itching to remain pristine!
 

Alexandros

Member
Oct 26, 2017
17,811
Valve is the easy target for game developers, but blaming external factors and algorithmic changes for a potential lack of sales serves only as a means of distraction from the actual issue. In my opinion, this is the actual issue:

The supply of indie games far exceeds the demand for them.

I've shared a personal anecdote before. Back in 2010, I was buying turn-based tactics games day one, as soon as they appeared on Steam, because it's my favorite genre and there were very few titles in the genre being released every year. Today, I have more than 20 well-reviewed turn-based games on my wishlist. I still haven't bought any of them, even though many of these titles have had deep discounts. Even in this niche genre, supply is so big that I can't keep up. This problem isn't solved by algorithm changes or complaining about Valve's curation.

Indie developers HAVE to realize that the audience only has so much time and money available. Back when Steam was a tightly curated store, being on Steam was a golden ticket. You know why? Because the success of the developers that made bank was achieved at the expense of thousands, maybe tens of thousands of other developers that languished in obscurity and were denied even the chance of finding success. The golden days of Steam that some developers remember fondly were only golden for the very few that made it in. It was absolute hell for everyone else.

It was developers themselves that pressured Valve to tear down Steam's walls and many gamers, including myself, stood by their side because their argument was convincing: Steam shouldn't determine what the customer can or can't buy. It is an argument I am in full agreement with. Steam shouldn't be the factor that decides whether a game lives or dies. Steam should give developers the means to bring their game to market in the most hassle-free and direct way possible, which it does. The customers themselves will then decide if they're interested in the game or not.

You can vilify Steam all you want for its mysterious algorithms that sabotage your games but the actual problem will not be solved that way. Steam is supposedly this indie-destroying hellscape according to some developers, but not a single soul can point to another platform and say "here, they're doing it better". The introduction of new platforms causes an initial goldrush and then, as soon as services fill up with games, sales drop and we're back to square one. For all its supposed faults and failings, Steam is still the best or one of the best platforms for indies, not only because of sales potential but also because of its openness that allows even small developers a chance at success.

What exactly are Epic's moneyhats supposed to solve? What does that money mean for the small dev who won't get them? How does a few developers that were already going to make millions making tens of millions change the fortunes of the average indie developer? Why are you adopting a stance against your audience's wishes over money that you aren't going to get? Is it the hope that Epic is going to give you a piece of the action? Even if they do, how is that going to solve the overall issue of discoverability and oversaturation for all the other developers out there?

Developers like Ismail openly supporting blatantly anti-consumer practices just to spite Steam is madness. Indie developers are targeting an audience that is more knowledgeable and informed about industry happenings compared to the mainstream gamer. The average gamer doesn't give a shit about indie games. The people that do, the people that actually buy them, are core gamers like me. Do you really think it's a good strategy to come out and declare that "hey, this company that is screwing you over is great for a few of us, so fuck you"? I am truly baffled that some indie developers would willingly antagonize their audience in such a way.
 

Deleted member 36086

User requested account closure
Banned
Dec 13, 2017
897
I'm all for options and multiple storefronts for people to purchase their games from, getting paid for exclusivity goes against those options as can be seen by all the alternative marketplaces suffering since the EGS started. There is no benefit to the consumer with these exclusivity deals.

But that's the developer's choice. Or do developers have no say in where they want to sell their games?
 

GhostTrick

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,308
Unfortonately, in a male dominated industry, I have to expect companies to fuck up once or twice, because basic human empathy's not usually taught very well. I pretty much have to cut them out when it becomes a pattern, because if I do not, and expect 100% perfection and no dumb statement, I'm pretty much cut from any entertainment. Ethical consumption under capitalism is tough, to use that particular meme.

It's the same how I handled gog. I give these platforms three strikes, and then they're out. That's how I ended up dropping gog (and killing my account with a fairly big catalogue of games) too. They got too bad, and poof, off they go. The problem isn't one fuckup, it's a continuous pattern of those, and so far, I can see two stores with that. Epic still has two left. And itch, miraculously, all three. Sheesh, they're really itching to remain pristine!



Eh well, cant blame you since you seem to at least have a rule in place.
 

Deleted member 10551

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,031
What a terrible take to come from a dev. Disappointing for sure.

Vlambeer was one of the lucky devs to win the indie lottery. He's great, but a lot of great indie devs don't win it.
It's understandable why indy devs are pissed at Valve. They feel like they've gotten the shaft.

It feels bad calling it a lottery, because a lot of the "losers" made great games, but game quality is just a small part of what makes an indie game successful.

Valve has an argument, and it's based in simple supply and demand. There's so many great games on Steam, that merely being a good game (or even a great one) just isn't enough to get noticed. You also to be able to market and sell your game as well. Indie devs think that's Steam's job, Valve thinks it's the developer's job.

End result is you are seeing indie devs have a real desire for alternative platforms. The Switch is a great one, but eventually the Switch shop will get saturated, and you'll eventually see the same supply/demand issues there. EGS, if it succeeds (big if, there's a lot of inertia going against Epic, and real concerns)- would eventually develop the same problem.

This is why I think there might be a developer push towards the streaming consoles- the end game of developers is to be able to shut off older games to force consumers to buy newer ones. This is a reason behind the push of GaaS as well, GaaS games have expiration dates. It's a lot easier to sell games when you don't have to compete with backlogs. While backlogs are killing the indie devs a lot more than the big guys, the big guys are hurt as well. I believe such a push will fail, because consumers will reject it due to the issues with US internet infrastructure.
 

Valdega

Banned
Sep 7, 2018
1,609
To show the amount of free hard drive space when installing a game. Seems simple; just show the amount available so I know whether I should install it to that drive or not...

Whoa, let's not get carried away now. EGS is a brand new platform built from scratch with nothing to compare itself with. There's zero reference for basic features that customers expect from digital distribution platforms. Zero. But don't worry, EGS is getting better every day and will soon be better than Steam! Also, don't forget that Steam was pretty barebones when it launched in 2003. Why are people getting upset that EGS has a feature set equivalent to a 16-year-old iteration of Steam? Talk about double standards.
 

derFeef

Member
Oct 26, 2017
16,357
Austria
I wanna say good luck then, because soon Epic Launcher will be swarmed with high-profile AAA moneyhats and all the small indies Epic claims to care so much about, will get buried, just like on Steam. Why is everyone blind about that part?

Y'all are way too moist for Steam, let Gabe eat some shit for a while. He deserves it.
WE, the consumer, is suffering, not Gabe.
 

Mistouze

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,430
Go on, tell us how you feel.
Honestly :
-On one hand, I find it funny to see how a lot of gamers finally found the ethics bone in their body when the one stop digital PC shop got pushed around by another company throwing money to devs in order to carve themselves a room in this market
-And I'm kinda cackling too about how some people make it out to be a huuuuuge issue that some game is not going to be on Steam for some time after its release. You can live with another game client installed on your PC, trust me.

Rami's word in the interview are pretty sensible if you read the whole thing, let them fight. I can totally live with this shit especially if devs can profit from the competition between Steam and EGS.
 

Robotoboy

Member
Oct 7, 2018
1,068
Tulsa, OK
This is shitty and ignorant and you should feel bad.

It is not. When the indie scene first started gaining traction you had Phil Fish, Johnathan Blow, Rami, Team Meat etc.

These days indie devs tend to be much more humble and with that they've made better games. The "old guard" used to flippin' call themselves "The Kings of Indie Games"

Hollow Knight, Celeste, Dead Cells, even Cuphead's devs all listen to their fans, and care deeply about them. The old guys used to give their fans the bird, and shout "YOU GET WHAT YOU GET!"

I love indie games, but Rami's games are not on my list of indie games I appreciate... and I do not like his egotistical viewpoints.

It's really not, indie games were special back in 2010-2014. Now there are dozens of them a month

See my above statement. I am not discounting indie games by any margin. I l'm merely making a point about the "old guard" having to much of an ego.
 

Revolsin

Usage of alt-account.
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,373
That's hilarious lmao. That's the fun ass type of competition from the SNES/Genesis days
 

svacina

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,439
Honestly :
-On one hand, I find it funny to see how a lot of gamers finally found the ethics bone in their body when the one stop digital PC shop got pushed around by another company throwing money to devs in order to carve themselves a room in this market
-And I'm kinda cackling too about how some people make it out to be a huuuuuge issue that some game is not going to be on Steam for some time after its release. You can live with another game client installed on your PC, trust me.

Rami's word in the interview are pretty sensible if you read the whole thing, let them fight. I can totally live with this shit especially if devs can profit from the competition between Steam and EGS.
What ethics? I am just looking after myself.

Also don't tell me what to be annoyed with.
 

Deleted member 24118

User requested account closure
Member
Oct 29, 2017
4,920
Years of experience, improvements and mindshare?

This is embarrassing.

Stop parroting this crap. Not only has the Epic launcher been around for ages now (it launched about five years ago iirc) without being improved, if a Model T was released in 2019 it would do terribly as a car. You release a product that is a viable competitor with other current products; in no other business would someone release an ancient and undeveloped project that's more barebones than the product its competing with was 15 years ago and try to justify it with "we'll add features later," because people expect those features as the standard.
 

GhostTrick

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,308
Honestly :
-On one hand, I find it funny to see how a lot of gamers finally found the ethics bone in their body when the one stop digital PC shop got pushed around by another company throwing money to devs in order to carve themselves a room in this market
-And I'm kinda cackling too about how some people make it out to be a huuuuuge issue that some game is not going to be on Steam for some time after its release. You can live with another game client installed on your PC, trust me.

Rami's word in the interview are pretty sensible if you read the whole thing, let them fight.

Yeah, so you're completely out of the loop then I guess.
Tell me when here people advocated for bad practices on the PC market ?
Because as far as I know, people always pushed against that kind of things.

The "Let them fight" meme is dumb as fuck. There's no fight here. I'm not for a "console war" tribalism crap. I'm about my own wallet. I'm about not wanting to pay more for my games. I'm about being allowed to share my games with family and friends I want. Others are just about being able to buy and play their games. Your whole narrative is false to begin with.
 

Kewlmyc

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
26,702
Honestly, they're not wrong. Steam has been a cesspool for years now due to the lack of filters on shovelware and asset flips.
 

derFeef

Member
Oct 26, 2017
16,357
Austria
Honestly :
-On one hand, I find it funny to see how a lot of gamers finally found the ethics bone in their body when the one stop digital PC shop got pushed around by another company throwing money to devs in order to carve themselves a room in this market
-And I'm kinda cackling too about how some people make it out to be a huuuuuge issue that some game is not going to be on Steam for some time after its release. You can live with another game client installed on your PC, trust me.

Rami's word in the interview are pretty sensible if you read the whole thing, let them fight. I can totally live with this shit especially if devs can profit from the competition between Steam and EGS.
Yeah, nah, you are completely and randomly making things up in your head.
Ignoring the issues with the Epic Launcher and what fight? What game did Valve ever moneyhatted exclusivity for?
 

Redcrayon

Patient hunter
On Break
Oct 27, 2017
12,713
UK
This thread is no longer producing meaningful discussion and only serves to pit members against each other.
 
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