Vlambeer co-founder Rami Ismail says "sucks to be you" and "you got out businessed" to Valve over EGS exclusives

[CharMomone]

Valve will have to start giving money back to developers too, or they'll lose them to Epic. Either by reducing their % cut of sales or exclusivity cash or whatever else. That's the definition of competition.

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That competition will be a race to the bottom as far as consumer choice and options go, perhaps Valve has enough revenue models via the marketplace to make up for a reduction to their sales cut, but that cut is partly due to how barebones the epic store service is, where we have to wait over 6 months for a shopping cart feature to be implemented. I don't see the developers selling freely generated keys to alternative markets industry surviving if Valve has to compete against epic in exclusivity, which again would be a hit to consumer choice and options.

 

[Weltall Zero]

It's not as though I don't value the input, but am I obliged to be convinced? Not all developers agree with the sentiment either, so if I need to appeal to authority in this case, which developer's opinion am I supposed to be taking as my own?

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You clearly have already decided that. I mean, you are literally labelling a developer "not alright" because they have the "wrong" opinion on this, so let's not fool yourselves into thinking you're ever going to listen to them.

It's not a zero sum game in that sense, but there's still a limit. Things can always be improved, of course, but now the conversation isn't about Epic's curation being a solution to Valve's, but rather Valve not being perfect, which seems necessarily true. I think Epic's approach to curation and a storefront in general is so obviously inferior to Valve's that it's kind of a joke. It doesn't help anyone other than a few select chosen devs in the short term. The problem will still continue to exist long after Epic stops tossing a few devs some cash, and them doing that doesn't solve the problem anyway. I'm open to hearing about alternative workable and fair solutions to the problems of visibility, discoverability, and this industry being so crowded, but I think it's clear that Epic is not bringing that.

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The conversation was about Steam's algorithms changing for the worse, so obviously there is such a thing as "better" and "worse", which is what you were arguing with your "zero sum" argument.

Does anyone who professes to have an opinion mean they have it all figured out and are overly arrogant or something? I'm not going to qualify every statement I make to ensure readers know that I'm open to change and am not trying to suggest I'm the arbiter of this issue. Other than that I already addressed this sentiment from the first quote.

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Again, how open are you really to change when you immediately condemn a developer for disagreeing with you?

 

[Wetwork]

The best part about this is my steam backlog is so large I might actually start finishing games since I won't be buying any EGS exclusives anytime soon.

 

[Cecil]

I don't exactly disagree on the business is business part, but complaints about the algorithm on Steam seem hollow to me. No doubt there's a glut of shitware, but there's no one out there handcuffing you and saying you can't do some real boots on the ground advertising on your own. I don't think it's fair to expect Steam to market your game entirely for you.

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And Epic sure isn't a solution for them, since they themselves have said that the Epic Store is a place you go to when you already know what you want.

Is his argument that Epic's way of "stealing" high profile games will push Valve into making changes for low profile games? Or is he just gloating? If the latter, then it's really not newsworthy at all.

It also seems weird that he doesn't really seem grasp exactly what point Valve was talking about, when they used the term 'unfair', that it wasn't about the fact that the game was to be sold on Epic Store instead of Steam, but how that move was pulled off.

All in all, a really dumb article, with dumb quotes.

 

[Netherscourge]

An Epic Games Store Summer Sale would be interesting.

Could there be some......

Spoiler: YOU WILL HATE ME

exclusive

.....bundle deals?!?!?

;)

/hides under a table

DISCLAIMER: the people responsible for this post have been sacked and replaced by llamas.

 

[Weltall Zero]

Ooh goodie, we've reached the "he's a developer and you're not so you're not allowed to have an opinion" phase of the thread loop. Someone link the posts by other devs criticizing the EGS so we can get back to "competition is always good though" by tomorrow!

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At no point whatsoever did I suggest they weren't allowed to "have an opinion"; I criticised the knee-jerk tribalism that leads someone to immediately label any dissenting opinion as coming from someone who's morally in the wrong so that they don't have to actually engage them; which, incidentally, is the exact same tribalism that makes someone jump at the chance to make a strawman like the above.

 

[Overflow]

What is up with people's blind obsession with the Valve monopoly?

They've rested on their laurels and raked in the cash. I'm glad they're being challenged.

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This. Steam has been complacent and unfair to a lot of devs over the last few years, not to mention they're slow as molasses to do stuff about content that SHOULD break their T&S.

At the end of the day this is just business. I don't particularly care about how Epic is snapping up titles all over the place because I'd rather there be actual competition in that space (meaning better for consumer in long term), with some short term frustration from consumers. Just look at it like the breaking-up of a large monopolistic corporation lol

 

[Valdega]

The exact opposite of competition is when a large entity manipulates the situation to the result of no one being able to compete with them. Valve is not small, Valve is not powerless. Companies paying for exclusivity is a very normal thing, and doing so requires that Valve create greater incentives for people to not migrate away from Steam.

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So you're suggesting that Valve pay publishers and developers for exclusivity? Because that's the only reason pubs and devs are signing up for timed EGS exclusivity. It's not about revenue share, curation or discoverability. If those were the reasons, these wouldn't be timed exclusives. They'd be permanent. Timed exclusives only occur when Company A gives Company B a large sum of money to hurt Company A's competitors. This is not a practice anyone should be condoning. It doesn't help consumers, it only hurts them.

 

[Deleted member 3093]

So you're suggesting that Valve pay publishers and developers for exclusivity? Because that's the only reason pubs and devs are signing up for timed EGS exclusivity. It's not about revenue share, curation or discoverability. If those were the reasons, these wouldn't be timed exclusives. They'd be permanent. Timed exclusives only occur when Company A gives Company B a large sum of money to hurt Company A's competitors. This is not a practice anyone should be condoning. It doesn't help consumers, it only hurts them.

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But the alternative is that consumers only reasonably have Valve to turn to. That isn't healthy for their base, especially when the lack of competition is likely one cause of why Valve feels so complacent as to have basically zero content curation.

 

[Deleted member 24118]

You're missing the point of why a monopoly doesn't have to compete with special deals for developers. Valve didn't have to lure developers to their store with cash - they were the only viable digital store at the time.

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They were the only "viable" one because all the others at the time - and nearly every big player had their own downloader well before Steam was selling much in the way of third party games - was garbage. There's always been competition, and Steam has always been far and away superior.

I thought I was being silly when I joked earlier about how "being better than the competition = monopoly" but I guess I was spot on lol. No wonder people thought I was being serious.

 

[voOsh]

But the alternative is that consumers only reasonably have Valve to turn to. That isn't healthy for their base, especially when the lack of competition is likely one cause of why Valve feels so complacent as to have basically zero content curation.

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Epic is manipulating the situation such that they are the ones that will have no competition. If that is not healthy for Valve I doubt it's healthy for Epic either. I agree that competition is good but there is no competition if I, the consumer, have zero choice where to purchase a game.

 

[Lothars]

Preach. The fact that anything but complete and utter Steam loyalty to the bitter end is spun as being a dirty pro-EGS fanboy is just another example of how simplistic, binary, us-vs-them thought becomes with anything discussed online.

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Except its not. Its not binary but cheering on epic for anti consumer and frankly shitty moves is mind boggling.

I am so relieved to see so many actual level-headed replies in this thread. Rami said what I've been saying for months, but I get dismissed like I don't know what I'm talking about. If it takes someone kinda famous to get it across I'm okay with that.

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I havent seen a level headed response about why the epic store is good but i sure have been seeing some insane posts about it being good.

 

[Deleted member 3093]

Epic is manipulating the situation such that they are the ones that will have no competition. If that is not healthy for Valve I doubt it's healthy for Epic either. I agree that competition is good but there is no competition if I, the consumer, have zero choice where to purchase a game.

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That's a thing in the console space though, why would it work in a different way on PC?

 

[Deleted member 1849]

Weltall Zero

The algo change was actually the start of October, not November. Valve had found the problem and told Simon by December 4th, so it was a 2 month delay of zero communication, not 3 like I originally posted

Here is Simon's sales graph where you can see the baseline dip.



And while people like Rami were ranting about the whole thing like the sky was falling and Valve were trying to kill Indies, devs like Simon accepted that they had made a mistake and published buggy code:




Other devs also mentioned how their sales increased, there was no real pattern. Rami still keeps on about it and acts like Valve just pretended everything was fine and said nothing.

And I'm 100% sure it's this algo change he is talking about. Nothing else gets close in terms of impact.

 

[sleepnaught]

As much as I hate the Epic Store and their exclusive purchasing bullshit, Valve DOES need a fire lit underneath their collective asses. Who knows, maybe if they get real desperate, they'll release Orange Box 2 to bring people back home. Who am I kidding, no one knows what those games are anymore.

 

[juventino13]

Epic is manipulating the situation such that they are the ones that will have no competition. If that is not healthy for Valve I doubt it's healthy for Epic either. I agree that competition is good but there is no competition if I, the consumer, have zero choice where to purchase a game.

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These are all timed exclusives so your choice is still there

 

[Valdega]

But the alternative is that consumers only reasonably have Valve to turn to. That isn't healthy for their base, especially when the lack of competition is likely one cause of why Valve feels so complacent as to have basically zero content curation.

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Valve doesn't force any publisher or developer to use Steam. They never have. Publishers and developers chose to use Steam because that's what the majority of consumers want. Why? Because Steam is objectively the best distribution platform on PC. It has the most features (for both developers and customers), the best selection and the best sales.

All this talk about curation is incredibly short-sighted. There was a time when Steam was highly curated. Guess what happened? Small indie devs complained that it was too hard to get on Steam. So Valve added the Greenlight system which let users vote on what games should be on Steam. Guess what happened? Smaller indie devs still complained that it was too hard to get on Steam. So Steam said "screw it" and just let all developers on Steam. This doesn't affect 99% of customers, as the trash-tier games won't appear on any of their lists. However, gaming journalists seem to have a fetish for searching for offensive/garbage games on Steam and then writing angry articles about them. Jim Sterling made a living from it. The term "outrage culture" is a controversial one but is perfectly apt to describe how the gaming media treats Steam.

Epic's "curation" just means that small indie devs won't be able to sell their games on EGS. This isn't limited to trash-tier games either. It means that any game arbitrarily deemed unworthy won't make the cut. Games like Undertale or Pony Island, for example, would likely never appear on EGS simply because of their low-budget presentation.

 

[Lothars]

Like, it feels like there's so much antipathy towards EGS exclusives, more so than I see for console exclusives it seems.

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Because they are buying to keep games off steam other than a couple of exclusive like Journey and heavy rain. It also doesn't help thst EGS is terrible and not worth using right now. No wonder its that way.

 

[Giever]

You clearly have already decided that. I mean, you are literally labelling a developer "not alright" because they have the "wrong" opinion on this, so let's not fool yourselves into thinking you're ever going to listen to them.

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I did listen, I just disagreed!

The conversation was about Steam's algorithms changing for the worse, so obviously there is such a thing as "better" and "worse", which is what you were arguing with your "zero sum" argument.

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Specifically, it was in regards to comparing Valve's system with Epic's. I said this:

I read the article, and he's really fair for most of it, but the idea that Valve screwed people over with their algorithms is just silly. There's only so much money to go around, and someone is always going to point to someone else and go why do they have X when I don't? It's at least better if the reason that's the case is less arbitrary or based on some person's or group's whims.

Epic isn't making it better by ignoring tons of developers and their games. That just makes the problem of discoverability worse. Valve's solution is at least a solution, Epic's is just plugging your ears and covering your eyes. So, yeah, it's disappointing hearing this kind of talk from him.

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I do think there's only so much money to go around, I don't think that's up for debate. Obviously people can be coerced to spend more, but only to an extent. I don't have a strong opinion on whether or not Valve's algorithm setup has been getting significantly worse or better lately. It's very possible it got worse!* It's also obviously a work in progress, so hopefully it continues to improve. Personally I think it's a pretty good solution and one worth working on.

I definitely think that it's better than the "solution" of strict curation that cuts out tons of developers. That's far more harsh of an exclusion than simply less visibility, and potentially more arbitrary when it's just a decision by a few individuals rather than Valve's algorithm which anyway is intended to work alongside more manual things like having users as curators and such.

Again, how open are you really to change when you immediately condemn a developer for disagreeing with you?

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Apparently the rough equivalent of "X, I used to think you were cool!" when having a difference of opinion is now a condemnation. It was nothing so dramatic. Look, I get why you may have taken it that way, all I can do is tell you my intent. If you continue to disbelieve it, I get it, but what else can I say or do about it? I'll endeavor not to respond to this particular line of arguing about my tone going forward unless it ends up being something especially biting.

*EDIT: Looking at that post above has really helped inform me about the algorithm issues. Thanks for that, Nappael! That's a really unfortunate bug and I can totally see how someone could feel working on this algorithm comes at the cost of developers. But, I really do think it's ultimately valuable and more fair than the alternatives I'm aware of, so I support it. Hopefully nothing that drastic happens again.

 

[Netherscourge]

edit

 

[blizzardjesus]

Rami is one of the smartest people in the industry. He's more than right.
I won't feel bad when Steam is gone.

 

[Deleted member 3093]

Valve doesn't force any publisher or developer to use Steam. They never have. Publishers and developers chose to use Steam because that's what the majority of consumers want. Why? Because Steam is objectively the best distribution platform on PC. It has the most features (for both developers and customers), the best selection and the best sales.

All this talk about curation is incredibly short-sighted. There was a time when Steam was highly curated. Guess what happened? Small indie devs complained that it was too hard to get on Steam. So Valve added the Greenlight system which let users vote on what games should be on Steam. Guess what happened? Smaller indie devs still complained that it was too hard to get on Steam. So Steam said "screw it" and just let all developers on Steam. This doesn't affect 99% of customers, as the trash-tier games won't appear on any of their lists. However, gaming journalists seem to have a fetish for searching for offensive/garbage games on Steam and then writing angry articles about them. Jim Sterling made a living from it. The term "outrage culture" is a controversial one but is perfectly apt to describe how the gaming media treats Steam.

Epic's "curation" just means that small indie devs won't be able to sell their games on EGS. This isn't limited to trash-tier games either. It means that any game arbitrarily deemed unworthy won't make the cut. Games like Undertale or Pony Island, for example, would likely never appear on EGS simply because of their low-budget presentation.

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It is not outrage culture to show just how frequently awful games get through. Valve couldn't even prevent a game called "Kill the Faggot" from being put on Greenlight.

Also, the fact that Valve curated too much is not a defense of the fact that they now curate too little.

 

[Davidion]

That's a thing in the console space though, why would it work in a different way on PC?

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There's little value in copying the near universally inferior console online platform/content models.

No one cares about Steam getting competition, they're annoyed at EGS fucking with their convenience while bringing nothing to the actual table, all for nominal competition in the long run that's nothing but pure irritation for a lot of us in the short term. If people still don't understand this at this point, there's no use having an argument about it.

 

[Valdega]

It is not outrage culture to show just how frequently awful games get through. Valve couldn't even prevent a game called "Kill the Faggot" from being put on Greenlight.

Also, the fact that Valve curated too much is not a defense of the fact that they now curate too little.

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The issue is that people are pretending that the lack of curation actually affects their Steam experience. It doesn't. You actively have to look for the crappy/offensive games and if you're doing that, you want to be offended. If you use Steam like an actual user, it will never show you said crappy/offensive games.

 

[7thFloor]

Rami is one of the smartest people in the industry. He's more than right.
I won't feel bad when Steam is gone.

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For what reason exactly? Their profit margin?

 

[Deleted member 3093]

There's little value in copying the near universally inferior console online platform/content models.

No one cares about Steam getting competition, they're annoyed at EGS fucking with their convenience while bringing nothing to the actual table, all for nominal competition in the long run that's nothing but pure irritation for a lot of us in the short term. If people still don't understand this at this point, there's no use having an argument about it.

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How inconvenient is it that they have to download a second launcher?

Yeah, it's not great in the short-term, but I prefer that short-term hitch if it means PC gaming is better off in the long run.

 

[voOsh]

That's a thing in the console space though, why would it work in a different way on PC?

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I mean that's kind of the whole reason Epic's business practices worry me: I don't want PC gaming to become more like console gaming. It feels much less consumer-friendly (more expensive games, fewer sales, fewer choices, etc.).

 

[Netherscourge]

Weltall Zero

The algo change was actually the start of October, not November. Valve had found the problem and told Simon by December 4th, so it was a 2 month delay of zero communication, not 3 like I originally posted

Here is Simon's sales graph where you can see the baseline dip.



And while people like Rami were ranting about the whole thing like the sky was falling and Valve were trying to kill Indies, devs like Simon accepted that they had made a mistake and published buggy code:




Other devs also mentioned how their sales increased, there was no real pattern. Rami still keeps on about it and acts like Valve just pretended everything was fine and said nothing.

And I'm 100% sure it's this algo change he is talking about. Nothing else gets close in terms of impact.

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Losing potential sales at the start of the Holiday Season sounds rather costly though. I mean, you can't guarantee something would sell, but you can guarantee it won't sell if nobody sees it.

The bug is bad. The timing is even worse.

 

[7thFloor]

How inconvenient is it that they have to download a second launcher?

Yeah, it's not great in the short-term, but I prefer that short-term hitch if it means PC gaming is better off in the long run.

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It's the console war vibe, exclusivity deals and all, that people are not interpreting positively. Not to mention their platform is inferior in pretty much every way.
How exactly would PC gaming be better in the long run? Because exclusivity isn't fucking it...

 

[JahIthBer]

Valve shouldn't take 70%, says devs who quietly say nothing about Microsoft, Sony & Nintendo taking the same cut, but bravery fades away when dealing with billion dollar corporations, it's easy to stand up to passive private companies like Valve, Gabe cares not if you bad mouth Steam, but if you start bad mouthing Sony or Microsoft, there might be "issues"

Now obviously everyone enjoys the bigger cut Epic gives, but this moral crusade about fighting greedy Valve's 70% cut is a bunch of bull.

 

[CharMomone]

How inconvenient is it that they have to download a second launcher?

Yeah, it's not great in the short-term, but I prefer that short-term hitch if it means PC gaming is better off in the long run.

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You keep saying better in the long run, can you talk more about how it can be better outside of some vague assertion about competition and options? You seem to have experience with console-esque platforms and services so why do you think bringing what is standard business for consoles to the pc side of things would benefit the pc user?

 

[Arex]

Well it's business decisions alright, let's not pretend that without the moneyhat they will voluntarily give up Steam in favour of EGS.

 

[Weltall Zero]

I did listen, I just disagreed!

Specifically, it was in regards to comparing Valve's system with Epic's. I said this:

I do think there's only so much money to go around, I don't think that's up for debate. Obviously people can be coerced to spend more, but only to an extent. I don't have a strong opinion on whether or not Valve's algorithm setup has been getting significantly worse or better lately. It's very possible it got worse!* It's also obviously a work in progress, so hopefully it continues to improve. Personally I think it's a pretty good solution and one worth working on.

I definitely think that it's better than the "solution" of strict curation that cuts out tons of developers. That's far more harsh of an exclusion than simply less visibility, and potentially more arbitrary when it's just a decision by a few individuals rather than Valve's algorithm which anyway is intended to work alongside more manual things like having users as curators and such.

Apparently the rough equivalent of "X, I used to think you were cool!" when having a difference of opinion is now a condemnation. It was nothing so dramatic. Look, I get why you may have taken it that way, all I can do is tell you my intent. If you continue to disbelieve it, I get it, but what else can I say or do about it? I'll endeavor not to respond to this particular line of arguing about my tone going forward unless it ends up being something especially biting.

*EDIT: Looking at that post above has really helped inform me about the algorithm issues. Thanks for that, Nappael! That's a really unfortunate bug and I can totally see how someone could feel working on this algorithm comes at the cost of developers. But, I really do think it's ultimately valuable and more fair than the alternatives I'm aware of, so I support it. Hopefully nothing that drastic happens again.

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if your original post was meant to be ironic / in jest, then that's fair enough and I'm sorry for the misunderstanding. I've seen people categorize others into "unlistenables" for having the wrong opinion often enough that I assumed that's what was happening here.

Rami is one of the smartest people in the industry. He's more than right.

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This is correct.

I won't feel bad when Steam is gone.

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This, on the other hand, is beyond nonsensical on so many levels. First, expecting Steam to go anywhere is hilariously naive. Second, hoping for Steam to be replaced by the Epic store (as opposed to simply spurred into improving) is downright masochistic. There is no part of PC gaming that would be improved by Steam disappearing. None.

(and for the record, Rami says precisely as much in the interview, so either you didn't actually read it, or you actually disagree with him)

 

[Deleted member 1849]

Losing potential sales at the start of the Holiday Season sounds rather costly though. I mean, you can't guarantee something would sell, but you can guarantee it won't sell if nobody sees it.

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Don't get me wrong. I'm not saying nobody was effected. Simon seems great and it's a shame he released at a time when Valve had accidentally published a bugged recommendation algorithm. It was clearly a problem, and a bad one at that.

But the key thing I want to highlight is that it was having random effects all over the place. Devs were hurt, others did better. Valve also did respond to a dev who asked them about it (one of few, apparently most never asked), and did fix it.

Rami's insistence that Valve just brushed off developers, said "that's what the data says" and then did nothing isn't true. He is also completely ignoring that these algorithm changes were made to reduce the amount of shit on the front pages. This is also not the first time he has deliberately misrepresented Valve.

Valve's communication needs to be better and they could've done a better job of explaining the algo changes and the bug. That's all.

 

[PepsimanVsJoe]

I won't feel bad when Steam is gone.

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I'd probably be a little miffed if I suddenly lost 1500+ games, but whatever.

 

[Davidion]

How inconvenient is it that they have to download a second launcher?

Yeah, it's not great in the short-term, but I prefer that short-term hitch if it means PC gaming is better off in the long run.

Click to shrink...

I don't care to switch apps when I play one song after the next either.

What's good for PC gaming in the long run would likely be great, sure. However its success has quite literally been inextricable from Steam's success while the great white hope comes in the form of an insignificant product with its only claim to fame on the consumer-side for being an irritant.

The reason why I can so casually dismiss the service and content distribution models of the ENTIRE console market and there'll be next to no arguments otherwise, is because Steam's value prop has been able to completely eclipse them since...I want to say about '07-'08, and they've never came close since. Yes, competition's good, and Steam is in fact a near-literal Goliath in the market so as someone noted above, Steam getting checked is likely good. But when the challenger's some shady fuck, lots of people are likely to beskeptical about what they're trying to sell.

Nobody cares that Steam has "competition", they're annoyed that the "competition" is getting an leg up at their convenience.

 

[Weltall Zero]

You keep saying better in the long run, can you talk more about how it can be better outside of some vague assertion about competition and options? You seem to have experience with console-esque platforms and services so why do you think bringing what is standard business for consoles to the pc side of things would benefit the pc user?

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Because an actual threat in their market space should, in theory, mobilize Steam into actively improving instead of passively coasting on their market dominance. This in turn would be better for everyone, developers and consumers. That's the theory anyway, and you can disagree with it, but there's nothing really "vague" about it.

 

[Timeaisis]

Some of y'all have really drank the kool aid huh.

 

[Cecil]

Rami is one of the smartest people in the industry.

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He sure doesn't show that in this article at least, where he still doesn't understand Valve's comment about being unfair, doesn't acknowledge that Epic doesn't exactly fix anything other then bringing back curation, and basically just gloats.

 

[Weltall Zero]

I'd probably be a little miffed if I suddenly lost 1500+ games, but whatever.

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To say the least (900+ here). But even beyond that, can you imagine the digital distribution trust crisis if Steam of all storefronts ever went down? It's amazing people can't see how downright catastrophic it would be for the entire gaming industry, including consoles.

Wishing for Steam to go down is seriously "some men just want to watch the world burn" levels of whathefuckery.

 

[Robotoboy]

It's terrible that in 2019, indie devs are convinced their games bombed because of some algorithm and not because their game was just not appealing at all.

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To be fair, this is Rami Ismail... from what I've seen he has QUITE the ego on him. He's from the older indie dev generation. They tend to a bit more about themselves and "subversive" but you can at least expect honesty, even if they do sound self centered, and anti-consumer at times. They tend to think and advertise themselves and their work as if it were Gods gift to gaming.

Unlike say... Team Cherry. Who come off as humble and reserved.

 

[Deleted member 24118]

That's a thing in the console space though, why would it work in a different way on PC?

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The console market is a fantastic example of competition done right. There's a reason console players don't have to put up with traditionally PC problems, like having to fork over a monthly fee which, over the full generation, equals out to purchasing another console in order to utilize basic online features like multiplayer. It's not like the PS4 and Xbone are proof positive that competing on exclusives means that you don't have to compete on features and often results in companies copying the worst practices of their "competitors" because consumers don't actually have a choice.

Why wouldn't PC gamers want to emulate it?

 

[BradGrenz]

To be fair, this is Rami Ismail... from what I've seen he has QUITE the ego on him. He's from the older indie dev generation. They tend to a bit more about themselves and "subversive" but you can at least expect honesty, even if they do sound self centered, and anti-consumer at times. They tend to think and advertise themselves and their work as if it were Gods gift to gaming.

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This is shitty and ignorant and you should feel bad.

 

[Kilbane65]

When did the younger generation got corrupted by greed and started rooting for the flaunting rich kid whose dad can buy anything? What happened to the defiant youth who despised the big cynical corporations? I thought indie devs were in it for artistic goals, used to be they get out of the AAA machine to make their dream game come true and reach out as many people as possible. By God this man sounds like either a broken husk or someone with a huge ax to grind.

 

[Maneil99]

This is shitty and ignorant and you should feel bad.

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It's really not, indie games were special back in 2010-2014. Now there are dozens of them a month

 

[Deleted member 47092]

Just to say you guys would have been been ride or die Gamestop people when Amazon first started selling games.

 

[Deleted member 3093]

The console market is a fantastic example of competition done right. There's a reason console players don't have to put up with traditionally PC problems, like having to fork over a monthly fee which, over the full generation, equals out to purchasing another console in order to utilize basic online features like multiplayer. It's not like the PS4 and Xbone are proof positive that competing on exclusives means that you don't have to compete on features and often results in companies copying the worst practices of their "competitors" because consumers don't actually have a choice.

Why wouldn't PC gamers want to emulate it?

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Point taken. Having a single storefront that is worsening by the day is a markedly better thing.

 

[7thFloor]

Just to say you guys would have been been ride or die Gamestop people when Amazon first started selling games.

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Pretty dumb quote above.

 

[Teeth]

Losing potential sales at the start of the Holiday Season sounds rather costly though. I mean, you can't guarantee something would sell, but you can guarantee it won't sell if nobody sees it.

The bug is bad. The timing is even worse.

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The interesting thing is...this is only a problem because it comes at the expense of Steam otherwise promoting these games. It's not like the games no longer came up in search, it's not that they no longer showed in tag relation, or suggestion boxes at the bottom of pages, or external links not working, or not showing in the top 10/20/50/100.

It's because they weren't being properly promoted in the recommended algorithms.

Now, that's bad, because people should theoretically see things that would interest them.

But literally EVERY OTHER STORE has ZERO algorithmic recommendations.

They literally just have paid advertised sections.

So this bug comes at the detriment of only the additional promotion that Valve was giving. The bug that decimated page views only decimated page views to those that were not doing any other promotion in any other way. The type of promotion required on literally any other storefront that wasn't Steam.

 

[Deleted member 47092]

Pretty dumb quote above.

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Above mine?