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Oct 26, 2017
8,206
Via Vox:
A majority of Americans — 59 percent — say in a new survey that Robert Mueller's investigation into Russia and the 2016 campaign has not yet uncovered evidence of any crimes, even though in reality, Mueller has already obtained five guilty pleas and 17 criminal indictments.

That's according to a new survey from Navigator Research that looks at Americans' view of the probe and ought to reshape the debate over the Russia investigation's role in both media coverage and Democratic Party messaging.

Screen_Shot_2018_05_23_at_10.12.28_AM.png

To be as clear about this as possible, Mueller's investigation has absolutely uncovered evidence of crimes:

  • Michael Flynn, former national security adviser and a key Trump campaign surrogate, pleaded guilty to making false statements to federal investigators in December.
  • Rick Gates, a top aide on the Trump campaign and a longtime business partner of Paul Manafort, pleaded guilty to false statements and one count of conspiracy.
  • George Papadopoulos, a foreign policy adviser on the campaign, pleaded guilty to false statements.
  • Alexander van der Zwaan, a London-based Dutch attorney, pleaded guilty to making false statements about his contacts with Gates and an unnamed Ukrainian.
  • 13 Russian nationals and three Russian companies have been indicted on conspiracy charges, and some on identity theft charges, related to Russian social media and hacking efforts.
  • Richard Pinedo, a California resident, has pleaded guilty to an identity theft chargerelated to the Russian indictments.
  • Paul Manafort, Trump's campaign chair, is facing two separate indictments — one in DCabout conspiracy, money laundering, false statements, and failure to disclose foreign assets; and one in Virginia about tax, financial, and bank fraud charges.
One can interpret this pattern of behavior in a few ways. One is that Mueller is steadily putting in place the building blocks of a huge, mafia-style takedown that will end with Manafort "flipping" under pressure and new indictments coming against members of Donald Trump's family and damning evidence about Trump himself. Another would be that when placed under a microscope by an aggressive prosecutor, several Trump aides turn out to have been involved in financial malfeasance only loosely related to the Trump campaign and Trump himself did nothing wrong. But there is definitely evidence of crimes — including some serious ones — by a range of figures, some Russian and some Americans and some working at a very high level in Trumpworld.

Yet despite what most Americans perceive to be a very steady drumbeat of Trump-Russia news, the majority of the public is completely unaware of these critical facts.

That suggests that the press as a whole has not done a good job of actually conveying factual information to our audience, that Democrats' messaging on the investigation has not been clear enough on the most damning point (Trump, even if otherwise innocent, is guilty of hiring crooks and trying to prevent an investigation into their activity), and that Trump's counterstrategy of muddying the waters around the investigation has been fairly successful.

Mueller's investigation has made some great steady progress in spite of what many conservative talking-heads will try to tell you. Why do the Democrats suck so much at messaging their good points/victories?
 

Charpunk

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,629
Because trump and his goons are louder and never stop talking about witch hunts and no collusion and people fall for it.
 
Oct 26, 2017
19,760
Democrats in general are terrible at messaging and strategy. I really don't understand. Do they expect the media, an entertainment business at it's core, to hammer on this stuff?
 

TaterTots

Member
Oct 27, 2017
12,966
Personally, I wouldn't call this a "victory" for a political party. I would call these wins for the U.S. in general. No one should want traders potentially tampering with elections.

On the other side of the fence, I'm not surprised so many people have said no. How many people actually give a shit enough to keep up with everything?
 

_Karooo

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,029
When you say Russia Russia Russia people expect Russia. Not really surprising. And let's be honest, no one gives a shit about these guys, it's all about Trump.
 

Deleted member 3542

User-requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,889
Democrats in general are terrible at messaging and strategy. I really don't understand. Do they expect the media, an entertainment business at it's core, to hammer on this stuff?

GOP and Trump messaging (I wouldn't call it a strategy per say) is clearer because they yell and scream and use cult-like thought reform on their people - acting like victims, repeated words/phrases to indoctrinate (Fake News! Witch Hunt! or other thought-terminating cliches), use of fear and uncertainty against facts etc....

Democrats try to be measured and not do that, call it taking a high road, being generally more empathetic or whatever I guess, but either way in a battle against thought reform it's going to lose every time.
 
Oct 26, 2017
19,760
GOP and Trump messaging (I wouldn't call it a strategy per say) is clearer because they yell and scream and use cult-like thought reform on their people - acting like victims, repeated words/phrases to indoctrinate (Fake News! Witch Hunt!), use of fear and uncertainty against facts etc....

Democrats try to be measured and not do that, call it taking a high road, being generally more empathetic or whatever I guess, but either way in a battle against thought reform it's going to lose every time.
I think you're exactly right. GOP "strategy" hasn't varied much in the past few years, so there is frustration that Democrats can't adapt. Honestly, I haven't a clue what their move should be, but their measured, high-road approach tends to come off as...I don' know...dispassionate? Can't quite pin it down.
 

lenovox1

Member
Oct 26, 2017
8,995
It's a combination of not paying attention at all and watching Fox News.

Yeah, many Americans source their news from the local stuff or Fox News (through social media or TV).

That doesn't explain why people that get their news from other sources in addition to or in lieu of don't also know that there have been guilty pleas and indictments.
 

Geirskogul

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,022
Because he hasn't uncovered any crimes perpetrated by anyone that actually matters.

No one cares about small fry campaign staff, Carter Page, Paul Manafort, the average American couldn't even tell you who these people were. From the very beginning, interest in the investigation among the general public has been predicated on one thing, its potential to bring down Trump himself. And in that regard, the probe has yet to produce anything of meaningful substance.
 

Hollywood Duo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
41,975
I think you're exactly right. GOP "strategy" hasn't varied much in the past few years, so there is frustration that Democrats can't adapt. Honestly, I haven't a clue what their move should be, but their measured, high-road approach tends to come off as...I don' know...dispassionate? Can't quite pin it down.
Incompetence is how I'd describe it. This is a slam dunk.
 

GoldenEye 007

Roll Tide, Y'all!
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
13,833
Texas
Democrats in general are terrible at messaging and strategy. I really don't understand. Do they expect the media, an entertainment business at it's core, to hammer on this stuff?
It's infinitely easier and more concise to be contrarian and yell out "No Collusion!," "Lock Her Up!," etc. than it is to have to explain why that is or isn't the case. Media latches onto the easiest and loudest sound byte and plays that non-stop.
 

Zornack

Member
Oct 29, 2017
1,134
Democrats in general are terrible at messaging and strategy. I really don't understand. Do they expect the media, an entertainment business at it's core, to hammer on this stuff?

I agree. Feels like their entire message is "hey lets just wait and see, wait and see, wait and see."

You think if Obama's campaign chair and national security adviser were guilty of lying to the FBI Republicans would be talking about ANYTHING else? Hell no.
 

Zornack

Member
Oct 29, 2017
1,134
It's infinitely easier and more concise to be contrarian and yell out "No Collusion!," "Lock Her Up!," etc. than it is to have to explain why that is or isn't the case. Media latches onto the easiest and loudest sound byte and plays that non-stop.

But why are Republicans the only ones with consistently concise messaging? E-mails, Benghazi, lock her up, witch hunt, no collusion, repeal and replace, build the wall.

What's a memorable and effective Democratic slogan in the past decade other than "change we can believe in"?

edit: oops dp
 

Deleted member 17402

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
7,125
I was listening to Pod Save America this morning and one of the hosts said something that really resonates with me: "Americans are uninformed when they don't read the news and are misinformed when they do."
 

Deleted member 11637

Oct 27, 2017
18,204
"Who cares about Mueller anyway, nothing will come of this", say increasingly irritating posters for the fiftieth time since last June.
 

Omegasquash

Member
Oct 31, 2017
6,176
Yeah, many Americans source their news from the local stuff or Fox News (through social media or TV).

That doesn't explain why people that get their news from other sources in addition to or in lieu of don't also know that there have been guilty pleas and indictments.

Lack of understanding about what those particular indictments indicate. It also doesn't help that even the Democrats are putting Trump's name out there. Trump this, Trump that. I even got a fundraising request in the mail today from the Warren campaign asking for my help to "stop Trump", written on the front of the envelope.

Non "Trump supporters" just see us complaining about Trump, not trying to do anything for the good of the American people, despite Dems actually doing just that. The "deplorables" love seeing the left this pissed off, the "moderate" swing voters want us to STFU about Trump and talk about them (many of which are).

Trump's way is to keep himself in the spotlight, and we're not helping ourselves when we take every opportunity to name the son of a bitch. Let's keep trying to make the make the message about the voter, let's keep holding ourselves accountable, but let's stop "speaking of the devil" so much. We know, all too well, what he's doing. But that's an off topic rant. My b.
 

Deleted member 2533

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
8,325
Democrats in general are terrible at messaging and strategy. I really don't understand. Do they expect the media, an entertainment business at it's core, to hammer on this stuff?

The guilty pleas and indictments are common knowledge if you watch any news that's not Fox, or read a major daily paper. Who are Dems failing to reach? Do you think the kind of person who's not reading NYT/WAPO, or wire services, or watching the 11 o'clock news is going to town hall meetings or attending campaign rallies?

The only person who would have the opportunity to learn their news through Democratic messaging is the kind of person who's interested enough in politics to be following the news.
 

Netherscourge

Member
Oct 25, 2017
18,930
He's indicted multiple people, gotten guilty pleas and one person has already been sent to jail.

How do people not see that he's exposing criminal acts by Trump administration people?
 

ProtomanNeo

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,190
Was having a drink Friday night with the campus director of the school I teach at and he was oblivious. To quote him "I don't think there's anything there" I asked "what about Coen?" His response "who's that?" I quickly changed the subject.
 

Lunar15

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,647
Nope, people will find it a useless waste of money unless Trump is put in jail.

It's really sad - the investigation should be throwing up alarm bells in the minds of every single voter, but it's not, because they're expecting some dramatic event to unfold immediately.
 
Oct 26, 2017
19,760
The guilty pleas and indictments are common knowledge if you watch any news that's not Fox, or read a major daily paper. Who are Dems failing to reach? Do you think the kind of person who's not reading NYT/WAPO, or wire services, or watching the 11 o'clock news is going to town hall meetings or attending campaign rallies?

The only person who would have the opportunity to learn their news through Democratic messaging is the kind of person who's interested enough in politics to be following the news.
But isn't the information in OP showing that there is a strong disconnect somewhere?
 

klonere

Banned
Nov 1, 2017
3,439
Until they see Trump doing the perp walk I'm sure your average American won't know nor care about anything involved in these investigations.
 

GoldenEye 007

Roll Tide, Y'all!
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
13,833
Texas
But why are Republicans the only ones with consistently consice messaging? E-mails, Benghazi, lock her up, witch hunt, no collusion, repeal and replace.

What's a memorable and effective Democratic slogan in the past decade other than "change we can believe in?"

edit: oops dp
Like I said, it's easier to essentially yell no over and over. Throw in America, fuck yeah and you have a winning strategy given the type of people that make up this country.

It's complicated to explain why certain policies are good and bad. It's complicated to explain why everyone having healthcare is a good thing or that we don't need to spend as much as we do on the military. And there don't appear to be enough citizens to give a shit about hearing it out. And it's getting worse.
 

Griselbrand

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,242
A lot of people are going to downgrade some of these charges to just 'telling a lie' and not view it as something that rates a serious investigation.
 

NotLiquid

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
34,771
The whole logic of "Mueller investigation is doing nothing even though several criminal charges have been filed" line of logic just because Trump isn't getting impeached by it or whatever feels like something you can turn into one of those Spongebob "not my wallet" memes.
 

mugurumakensei

Elizabeth, I’m coming to join you!
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,328
Because he hasn't uncovered any crimes perpetrated by anyone that actually matters.

No one cares about small fry campaign staff, Carter Page, Paul Manafort, the average American couldn't even tell you who these people were. From the very beginning, interest in the investigation among the general public has been predicated on one thing, its potential to bring down Trump himself. And in that regard, the probe has yet to produce anything of meaningful substance.

Paul Manfort : The person in charge of the Trump Campaign
Carter Page: Trump's foreign policy adviser
Michael Flynn: Trump Cabinet Member in charge of National Security
Michael Cohen: Trump's lawyer

"Anyone that actually matters"
 
Oct 27, 2017
6,745
Because he hasn't uncovered any crimes perpetrated by anyone that actually matters.

No one cares about small fry campaign staff, Carter Page, Paul Manafort, the average American couldn't even tell you who these people were. From the very beginning, interest in the investigation among the general public has been predicated on one thing, its potential to bring down Trump himself. And in that regard, the probe has yet to produce anything of meaningful substance.
Honestly can't tell if this post is serious or not.

The bolded phrases alone, seems like tongue in cheek sarcasm. How does the campaign manager's indictment in a case investigating illegal interference in the campaign process not matter?

You guys are the fools who would be whining in 2002 that "Enron totally got away with all their financial crimes!" while the investigation was moving quickly behind the scenes. Jesus.
 

Jinaar

Prophet of Truth
Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,300
Edmonton AB
Was having a drink Friday night with the campus director of the school I teach at and he was oblivious. To quote him "I don't think there's anything there" I asked "what about Coen?" His response "who's that?" I quickly changed the subject.

Why did you choose not to take that opportunity to educate with a knowledge based transfer of information of current events?
 

VariantX

Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,890
Columbia, SC
I believe it. People here show up in threads acting like nothing has happened even in threads that exist BECAUSE something just happened.
 

demondance

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,808
This kind of thing has long been alienating to me, as an American. The press and even opposing politicians (handed a slam dunk like this!) never seem like they're actually informing us of any of the key points on any complex topic, preferring to get deep into the weeds with speculation that simply muddies the whole thing and helps no one.

Republicans do this too, but their speculation is inevitably focused and repetitive. They at least get a coherent message across, no matter how false. Benghazi was Clinton's fault. Obama is a Kenyan. Etc.

Democrats are flailing on this, focused more on vague Russia/Putin talk than any specifics, and the press are largely providing an incoherent picture of an investigation that has very direct results so far.
 

Kthulhu

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,670
Democrats in general are terrible at messaging and strategy. I really don't understand. Do they expect the media, an entertainment business at it's core, to hammer on this stuff?

Waiting till we know everything before they make the big push is a smarter decision.

Plus do you really expect it to be any different? Trump will come out and call it fake news like he always has. Unless the Dems get control of Congress the Trump will continue to get away Scot free.
 

Dark Knight

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,314
It's a combination of not paying attention at all and watching Fox News.
These people are brainwashed slaves of the donor class. What a horrifying existence they have been conditioned and conned into. Imagine if your entire life was about anger and failure and you didn't quite understand the root cause so you kept doubling down.

Not that I feel pity for them.
 

Deleted member 8257

Oct 26, 2017
24,586
This will change once Mueller writes his report.
 

Sephzilla

Herald of Stoptimus Crime
Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,493
Yeah, a lot of people I know are really out of touch with the Mueller investigation
 

Ponn

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
3,171
It's not the job of the Democrats to get out messaging on a federal special investigation. That should be a bipartisan thing and it's just sad we've come to accept this. It's also sad we can't depend on actual news outlets to do their job and report on this, and not be afraid to call out the current WH on its constant misinformation and falsehoods.

And the absolute worst part of all this is no one being able to stand up and punish Fox News for spreading that misinformation and falsehoods as facts while just being a propaganda machine. It's why in a way I don't feel a lot of sympathy's for what has happened to with the distrust of news and media because they were complacent and oftentimes active participants in the downfall of their trust and integrity. They traded ratings for that integrity.
 

Jersey_Tom

Banned
Dec 2, 2017
4,764
Because the prevailing idea of what Mueller is doing is trying to prove Russian collusion with the Trump campaign. And though Mueller has found evidence and indicted people close to the Trump campaign of illegal activities with foreign entities, anything short of a picture of Trump himself shaking hands with Putin as he hands over leaked DNC data is going to be viewed in the Fox News cycle as a waste of time and not what Mueller is supposed to be doing.

Trump of course is now trying to take on a new angle at this by calling into question the integrity of the FBI again by claiming that they had a spy within his campaign for the purposes of helping Clinton win the election, which while there is no evidence presented, is taking attention away from his own potential nefarious dealings since the North Korea summit seems to be collapsing underneath him.

Remember, this administration's favorite tactic is to undermine credibility and distract. Can't focus too long on a scandal when another one pops up out of nowhere, legitimate or not.
 

RDreamer

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,106
Paul Manfort : The person in charge of the Trump Campaign
Carter Page: Trump's foreign policy adviser
Michael Flynn: Trump Cabinet Member in charge of National Security
Michael Cohen: Trump's lawyer

"Anyone that actually matters"

Trump and the right in general are just treated in a whole different manner. The bar is significantly higher for them. Can anyone imagine that amount of people connected to Obama or Hillary getting hit with those charges and people on the right even agreeing "Well, it wasn't actually Hillary, so I guess it doesn't matter." Yet that's what's happening in reverse.

It's such a difference in politicking and in constituents, really. The right makes little shit matter. They keep going, incessantly bringing it up over and over and over and over again until even the most ignorant person in the country thinks it's an issue. It's what happened with Clinton's emails. No one should have given a shit about that, but they did! Or Susan Rice saying for one single day they thought a tape was the cause of the Benghazi incident. Suddenly Obama and Hillary were laughing in their bunker while Americans were killed. Meanwhile now the left is policing the left on even talking about Russia. "Nah, don't talk about it. Focus on the issues." Liberals in this country have no clue nor mechanism to make something an issue the way the right does or to hand wave an issue the way they do.
 

rambis

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,790
When you let the right get away with constantly shouting no collusion and all the other false narratives this is what you get. I said in Poli-Era that Mueller is kinda being too quiet. And when he does do anything its always kinda glossed over by the media. I also don't think the media is as knowledgable about these proceedings as they should be. You have people like Maddow who is great at understanding but at times too long winded and will lose people and then you have CNN's cast who just baffles me sometimes with the questions they ask.
 

Messofanego

Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,190
UK
Honestly, Dems gotta act as much of a cult as Republicans. Same messaging, same yelling, same rhetoric. Fight fire with fire. Don't take the high road. Point out the other side are too politically correct or are snowflakes when conservatives get offended. There's a reason why this strategy continues to this day, because it works to get the message across to more of the general public who want it all simplified.

Never play defense.
 

Osa15

Banned
Nov 13, 2017
661
Because no one is interested in these smalls frys. Everyone is interested in the head honcho, whose name is Donald Trump.
 

Kernel

Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,889
This will change once Mueller writes his report.

IF he writes his report.

Democrats are awful at messaging. Always trying to be cordial, bipartisan while the other side is actively pulling the carpet out from underneath you.

Similar situation when Hitler took power. Weak, impotent opposition.

Wake up.