You're putting words in my mouth. I specifically said over Bernie.
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WaPo: Bernie Sanders briefed by U.S. officials that Russia is trying to help his presidential campaign
- Thread starter chadskin
- Start date
Thee are too many people like that still keep in mind premiums is what people pay every month. It is much easier to ge people to understand how much more money they can save since they can compare really quickly their year expense vs the tax increases.
Yes this is true but it is also true people hate their companies changing their plans which happens regularly enough that Sanders thinks he can convince people to reflect on that bullshit and convince some of them to try out his plan.
Well this is why I said before Sander's team can get more into the specifics during the general election to help people understand more quickly the difference in savings relative to the tax increase. That remains to be seen if he'll do that but let's be mindful most politicians avoid doing something like that in elections. If he is willing to take the risk of not detailing that then that's on him. If they took the time and spent the money to hire economists to examine other countries transitions to single payer so they can offer a lowball estimate I think that would be his best move.
Come on, now you are being unrealistic. Poll after poll reflects the fact that Trump s already viewed as untrustworthy by the majority of the public. The majority of those who "trust" him aren't going to vote for any Democrat except "Bloomberg."
Sanders is already viewed as one of the most trustworthy politicians. People aren't going to listen to Trump and his surrogates on this talking point, people will hear out Sanders. Managing to assuage their fears and concerns on this issue will be entirely on him.
Never is a word I only use in exceptional cases. This isn't one of them. B and large the party knows improving healthcare makes them more popular. But I agree that it will be very hard to do as Sander's envisions because some Dems will be all about protecting mediocrity.
Doesn't really make a difference. Not all wealthy people like Trump. Worst thing Bernie can do is tax them a bit more. Trump is capable of interfering with your company simply because he has a personal grudge against you. Just ask Bezos. You also don't have to be poor to be uneasy about Trump politicizing the federal bureaucracy, DOJ and state department.
There most certainly are NeverBerners. It's the equivalent of the cowardly silent Trump voters (the people who openly talk about how much they loathe Trump....and then in the isolation of the voting booth vote for him. It's why practical people have to ascribe a 2% or so bump in Trump's favor everytime they see a poll. These secret-Trump-lovers are legion).
Regarding NeverBerners - nearly all limousine liberals and union leaders will be super vocal in their support of the Democrats and Bernie the nominee. And as soon as they can close that tiny curtain and submit their vote...BAM, more ballots in the Trump column.
In any case, Russia's probably not trying to sow chaos and do any 4D chess stuff. Rather, they just want Trump re-elected. And Bernie as the democrat nominee is an absolute guarantee of Trump getting re-elected.
Regarding NeverBerners - nearly all limousine liberals and union leaders will be super vocal in their support of the Democrats and Bernie the nominee. And as soon as they can close that tiny curtain and submit their vote...BAM, more ballots in the Trump column.
In any case, Russia's probably not trying to sow chaos and do any 4D chess stuff. Rather, they just want Trump re-elected. And Bernie as the democrat nominee is an absolute guarantee of Trump getting re-elected.
Great documentary by Adam Curtis that foresaw all this while everyone was dismissing Trump and no one was yet talking about Russia or Fake News.
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I don't know about that. Considering that there are midterm elections and the length of any transition period any M4A plan may have from the date of it's passing, it may not be about protecting mediocrity or improving health care but protecting seats. So even if the M4A bill was so solid and everyone's care was going to be amazing, it was the absolute best case scenario, there'd still be the apprehension before the bill took effect that would leave Democrats vulnerable. Further, it'd also take time for the economic effects of laying off and restructuring such a huge sector of the economy so there could be repurcusions just on the economic front, again assuming everyone's care was fucking amazing.
But the reality is that if we do pass M4A there will be teething issues. We likely don't have enough doctors and facilities in place for people to use as frequently as they'd be expected to be able to do with no premiums or copays and it'd take years, assuming we even could train enough doctors because that may well require more medical schools and free tuition or at least tuition reform, and we'd still have to build more facilities. We might even lose some people in the medical field who'd decide to retire sooner than expected once they don't make as much and it's less lucrative for them to keep working. And that's going to go on the same time as all the displaced insurance workers looking for work.
No way it goes great and it will at least overlap with one election, probably 2 elections but we could be having teething effects for longer than that easily depending on how things play out.
I feel confident saying passing M4A will cost us seats, I think it's the right thing to do but it has to be so well written, so well funded, kick in super fast and be in effect quick enough and working well enough in some areas to mitigate losses to a point it's not entirely feasible to repeal it immediately, we'd have to keep the Presidency to veto budget cuts to kneecap it long enough for it to be better for most people.
Yes I'm in to vote in an obviously gop tampered election as well as Russian campaign to keep Trump who is not beholden to any laws regulations or norms. As if it's a silver bullet that is untouchable. Because it's the only thing that can be done until citizens physically remove him and the traitors from office.
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If the Democratic Party and the news media would actually cover his policies and the problems they seek to remedy, he'd enjoy overwhelming support.
As it stands now, every outlet is frantically booking every hack they possibly can to just keep repeating "heart attack, socialism" in order to keep the FearBucks flowing in.
The amount of Twitter checkmarks that are permanently brain poisoned by Russiagate and are anti-Bernie are the result of this. This morning I saw a slew of activity surrounding Bradley Whitford and a Vox journalist opining that Bernie's not a "real" democrat. They're the equivalent of bumpkin Trump voters who vote for whoever has an R next to the name and say shit like "if you don't like America, leave!"
https://twitter.com/search?q=#neverbernie&src=typd
it's like, not even hard to find people who explicitly say they are, and I quote, "neverbernie". I'm not really sure why people are pretending otherwise
it's like, not even hard to find people who explicitly say they are, and I quote, "neverbernie". I'm not really sure why people are pretending otherwise
The out of control clown car that was Obamacare is in that state now, I'd imagine something that did more to address people's needs would be even harder to repeal.
Here's the thing, though. Bernie has high approval ratings in part because he hasn't been attacked yet. For all the "there's an establishment and media conspiracy against him" talk among his supporters, he's been handled with kid gloves this whole campaign. Even Clinton went easy on him because he was a weak enough candidate she didn't have to go hard.
If he does get the nomination, Republicans won't hold back. We haven't seen yet how his support will hold up under real attack. I'm afraid it won't be pretty.
"People won't listen to Trump or his surrogates" forgets the fact that ~42% of the country is already hard core bought in and he has state media in Fox News behind him amplifying everything he says. And his approval rating has been climbing for months.
What policies of Bernie's are not getting adequately covered? He speaks in sound-bites (just as any politician does, so its not a knock about him). The media absolutely does play his sound-bites. That's the best you can hope for from any news channel.
What more are you asking them to do? Print out his policy proposals and read them live during prime-time? "Sorry folks, we interrupt tonight's Modern Family so we can read verbatim Bernie's 3-page policy on bail reform."
Bernie will never enjoy overwhelming support for several reasons, none of which have to do with public awareness of his policies.
1) His vagueness on how how his paradigm-shifting plans will actually happen or be paid for.
2) His health (Trump & the Koch machine will play that up by insinuating that Bernie lied about releasing his health records because his heart is still in bad shape)
3) There's too many examples of him calling himself a socialist (not just a democratic socialist). Hey, you know how in EVERY ELECTION EVER its the moderates/centrists that end up picking the winner? It's like this time the bernie supporters are saying "oh yeah this one time that won't happen because my brain is entertaining wish-fullfillment fantasies." Moderates/Centrists won't vote en mass for someone on the extreme end of the political spectrum, especially given that Trump's incumbency is percieved as the status-quo (yes, for non-political people Trump has been normalized. Wishing that wasn't the case doesn't make it so)
4) Unions don't want to trade their healthcare in for gov-run M4A. I chuckled when Warren said "I've never met anyone who says they love their healthcare plan." Her statement relies on hyperbole. Switch it to "satisfied/content with their healthcare plan" and suddenly you have everyone in unions. The Koch advertising machine, as well as Trump's main talking point, is going to be that union members will lose the high-quality health plans in favor of nightmarish VA health plans. Everyone arguing that unions will actually benefit from M4A forget that the union members are concerned about QUALITY, and the GOP will play up the (probably true) scare tactics that single-option gov run healthcare cannot compare to what they have now. Government-run programs generally don't meet the same quality levels that private programs do. At least that's the perception, which is what matters since it affects how people vote.
That's waaaaaaaaay too late. Most Americans don't pay attention to the news let alone the presidential election. Hilary's hit job worked because it was years in the making. Not even republicans can assassinate someone that easily otherwise they wouldn't have ended up with Trump. It takes time Trump already doing his limp ass attacks on Bernie right now and almost noones taking notice because they're he thinks they're stronger attacks than they are.
The quid pro quo shit happened because even Trump knows you need some solid shit to take someone down like that and that he's vulnerable in states he needs.
I mean Trump already took Biden out with the Ukraine stuff. I really don't think Bernie is bulletproof.
Biden is out because he did a piss poor campaign and repeatedly put his foot in his mouth. Russia had, at best, a minimal influence on Biden's crash.
Come on. I wrote multiple times he has supporters that "trust" him.
As for this point, this is false in 2 distinct ways on of which will prove to be irrelevant for too many reasons.
Clinton has been soft on Bernie himself but her team spent more of their energy attacking his supporters. The Bernie Bros angle seeks to erase the perception that Sanders has a diverse coalition. It's one thing if people attacked Sanders for having younger supporters because they are unreliable and we don't "know better" about the strengths of capitalism but that's not the tact they took. To this day the effect of the Bernie Bros smear is still felt.
As for the second, Bloomberg himself demonstrated how Republicans will equate communism with socialism and among Democratic primary voters it certainly already isn't proving to being as effective.
Translating that into the general election is another matter but there are two things that will work in Sander's favor.
The first factor is that one of the few fundamental differences between Democratic voters and Republican voters is that Democrats still believe the role of government is to get involved and fix issues while Republicans don't believe government works and is a menace. So regardless of whatever hangups some of us will have about Sander's plans we will vote D.
The second and much more important point is that it's blatantly obvious the majority of Americans want socialism. Even the Republican base wants socialism but only if it is engineered to help white people only.
Non voters generally speaking don't vote because on a basic level they don't believe the government has or will do anything to help them. But with Sander's sterling reputation he could get some support from such people especially among educated young people who typically check out on elections. If Sander's team and the DNC don't fight among themselves and craft a message and spend the money to reach the working poor they along with the educated youth could finally be convinced to turn out in ways no previous candidate could achieve except possibly Robert Kennedy.
Any democratic nominee will guarantee Trump to be reelected. The guy is invincible. His base is super loyal. Democrats are weaker than ever and cornered in every direction. Stuff like the impeachment for example, it was lose lose for democrats. You lose and look spineless is you don't impeach him, if you impeach him, you'll lose and help solidify his support. As much as people like to pretend they're wrong, democrats are absolutely in disarray. They have no strategy, no real power, and no idea how to get out of this mess. I think after 2020, the democratic party will collapse due to infighting.
This, people are giving Trump credit he doesn't deserve lol
You're right we complain about quality which is why Sander's still got the majority of union support so far. You kind of don't understand what we debate about contract negotiations. *shrugs*
Well said. Anyone who says there isn't more material to attack each of these candidates on simply lacks imagination.
Kerry went through a grinding primary season where his background, finances, tax-dodging, etc were all laid bare. One would think "well that's it, no more skeletons in his closet or anything in his past to attack him on! It's all public knowledge!"
And then the GOP set their sites on him and used his history aboard swift boats to decry him.
With the sort-of exception of Biden from '08, none of these candidates has been subject to a koch-bros lead oppo-research campaign or GOP discrediting message yet. So no - none of these people are bulletproof.
Just wait until republican operatives start interviewing people that Sanders met with in the USSR during his honeymoon. For a couple of rubles they'll be propped up to describe whatever praise Sanders gave to the former communist state.
Trump denies that Russia are interfering, because Putin said so. However, he's also saying that Russia is interfering to help Bernie. How can people fall for this shit?
Do you expect union support to be at the same level (or more) as it was for Hillary in 2016? Because any reduction is a detriment in the swing states of MI and PA where union views matter.
And Trump is going to tell those workers in MI and PA that their union-won healthcare is under attack, and that he'll be the one to "save it" from Bernie. Why else are the other Dem candidates doing the same thing?
Democrats courting Nevada's unions hope 'Medicare for All' fears are enough to slow Sanders
The Vermont senator's rivals have sought to peel off support among a powerful voting bloc by highlighting health care.
www.nbcnews.com
Slow your roll son.
There are weaknesses in the Democratic field except for Biden based on existing polling. But the infighting is a frequent past time of our party. It's silly to think this in of itself is new.
If the party elects Sanders and loses the establishment will continue to go on trucking believing they didn't do anything wrong, the youngest members of our party will fracture until some of the newest members of Congress step up to fill the void Sander's left.
If the party elects Bloomberg and loses well that will force a big change in leadership and embolden our youngest members to be more aggressive.
If the party elects anyone other than those 2 and loses we'll go through the same shit we went through in 2016 after Clinton lost but it would mean a more gradual and relatively more peaceful acceptance of trying out someone more like Sanders and Warren. If you already found the 2016 infighting too stressful just take break from listening to and watching the news for a 6 months.
Yeah it just opens him up as an attack point as a Russian agent. It's stupid shit and if Democrats prepare for and flood the News with their attack points on it they can easily damage him on it. It's an admission of guilt. It's an open goal go ham.
Do you expect union support to be at the same level (or more) as it was for Hillary in 2016? Because any reduction is a detriment in the swing states of MI and PA where union views matter.
And Trump is going to tell those workers in MI and PA that their union-won healthcare is under attack, and that he'll be the one to "save it" from Bernie. Why else are the other Dem candidates doing the same thing?
Democrats courting Nevada's unions hope 'Medicare for All' fears are enough to slow Sanders
The Vermont senator's rivals have sought to peel off support among a powerful voting bloc by highlighting health care.
You answered your own question. Other Dems tried to do the same thing in Nevada and will proven to be a failure when the primary is concluded. Also as has been discussed before Trump is already viewed as not trustworthy overwhelmingly among independents and non-voters. We will hear someone like Bernie out and if we don't like what he's seeling than that's that. Frankly I'm way more concerned about his Green New Deal in certain swing states. That is way more likelyt o bother existing union members than even a half assed Single payor plan.
That's the topic that should really worry my fellow Sander's supporters.
I'd love to know which nominee you don't think is a so-called "absolute" guarantee of Trump getting re-elected?
Where I'm standing I don't see a world where Bernie stands the best chance of winning personally.
It's good to see somebody supporting Bernie when MSNBC and the DNC are doing all they can to work against him.
Also:
Also:
If Trump voters can sit down for HOURS and watch Hannity, Ingraham, and Carlson get out whiteboards and spin vast conspiracy horseshit and rant incoherently, then there is the capacity for the news media to give actual real information rather than sound bytes and panel fights. The public has the attention span for it, they just aren't being treated as such.
The media narrative needs to be around our descent into authoritarianism and the issues our country faces, not "did some rando on Twitter be mean to a Warren surrogate who said some false shit??? BREAKING, we stop Bernie on the tarmac to badger him about it!"
The only two candidates that have absolutely no shot at winning the general election are Bernie and Pete.
Bernie would lose PA due to peoples' practical concerns about M4A as well as his proposed ban on fracking.
Pete would lose VA and reduce the margins in PA (Philly) and MI (Detroit) due to his sexual orientation (I guess that's the elephant in the room).
Klobuchar behaved so poorly in her dust-up with Pete on Wednesday that Trump would obliterate her in a debate. Most of the others would handle themselves better. But Klob would still be outside the "guaranteed to lose, we're all ignoring basic reality" zone that Pete & Bernie occupy.
I buy the argument that Pete can't win, but not so much Bernie. Best I can tell Bernie's favored in PA right now. I also realize this is shaped by my sole personal experience but I live right on the edge of OH and PA and a lot of people like Bernie, at least here.
I also happen to think personally Warren (as an original Warren supporter), Bloomberg, and at this point Biden wouldn't win. Some based on numbers over time, some based on intangibles and personal feelings.
It may not be true but there's also no way to even test it in the long run sooooo...this is where I'm at. I think it best to hitch my cart to the person I feel has the best chance of winning. If you think that's someone else no hard feelings though.
I need to like, have this article as a hyperlink under my name or something
https://www.pghcitypaper.com/pittsb...al-gas-drilling-in-state/Content?oid=16660198
we have no evidence that suggests a fracking ban will sink a candidate in pennsylvania except the assumed priors of people that believe it to be true
aaaa
listen, you're probably a very smart and handsome person, but this is insane.
listen, you're probably a very smart and handsome person, but this is insane.
- Debates have very little sway on who wins an election. We all saw that in 2016, when Trump couldn't debate for shit.
- Pennsylvania on fracking is one single issue, and that's a state that Hillary lost by only 25,000 votes (.5%). As a reality check, here are poll numbers of Sanders v. Trump in Pennsylvania: https://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2020/president/pa/pennsylvania_trump_vs_sanders-6862.html
- Klobuchar has virtually zero minority support.
In attempt to sow fear, Russian trolls paid for self-defense classes for African Americans
A group linked to a Russian troll farm paid personal trainers across the U.S. to run self-defense classes for African Americans in an apparent attempt to stoke fear -- and gather Americans' contact details.
money.cnn.com
Bernie has no skeletons in the closet tho. Every time they try to paint him in a bad light, we get receipts that make him look even more awesome.
Trump hasn't thrown a billion dollars worth of targeted, negative ads his way yet. This applies to all of the candidates. We're going to hear socialism, Ukraine, Pocahontas, etc. etc. nonstop for months. That's why I really hope Bloomberg sticks by his promise to fund the eventual nominee.
There really is no method to the madness.In attempt to sow fear, Russian trolls paid for self-defense classes for African Americans
A group linked to a Russian troll farm paid personal trainers across the U.S. to run self-defense classes for African Americans in an apparent attempt to stoke fear -- and gather Americans' contact details.money.cnn.com
Then on the other hand you have far more concerning stories on the topic of free and fair elections being ignored like "Nevada Democratic Party asks caucus volunteers to sign confidentiality agreements" after the Iowa shit show.
There really is no method to the madness.In attempt to sow fear, Russian trolls paid for self-defense classes for African Americans
A group linked to a Russian troll farm paid personal trainers across the U.S. to run self-defense classes for African Americans in an apparent attempt to stoke fear -- and gather Americans' contact details.money.cnn.com
I kinda want to see a movie where a bunch of black martial arts experts travel to Russia to kill the evil president destroying America.
"But Comrade Leroy, we were the ones that trained you, we are not your enemy, you hate the imperialist, hedonistic dogs of America that enslaved your people."
"Maybe you're right baby, let's have a drink, do you know how to make a Moscow Mule?"
"Ha ha ha, very good Comrade!"
"Yeah, that's right, that Moscow Mule is just like the mules in America -they got that Kick!"
(kicks president of Russia through a window)
"Leeeeee-rooooooooo-"
*splat*
It will be higher than Hilary Clinton because Hilary Clinton is a woman and the rank and file union member did not like her, in significant (not sole) part, because she's a her.Do you expect union support to be at the same level (or more) as it was for Hillary in 2016? Because any reduction is a detriment in the swing states of MI and PA where union views matter.
And Trump is going to tell those workers in MI and PA that their union-won healthcare is under attack, and that he'll be the one to "save it" from Bernie. Why else are the other Dem candidates doing the same thing?
Democrats courting Nevada's unions hope 'Medicare for All' fears are enough to slow Sanders
The Vermont senator's rivals have sought to peel off support among a powerful voting bloc by highlighting health care.
Isn't there plenty of data out there on union membership going for Trump at a higher than "expected" rate given the unions as an entity endorsed Clinton?
But Obamacare was totally repeatable. The only reason it wasn't was because McCain did a "fuck you," if people knew he was going to vote that way on the final bill Collins and/or Murkowski might have voted the other way. Any 3 of those votes could have been passed that day and due to one man mucking up the Republicans' plan they didn't. That's luck not the law being bulletproof.
And the ACA has spent it's whole life being defunded and weakened just since most people get their insurance from their employer it's not as tangible.
Budgetary fuckery would decimate everyone's care on a M4A plan. Further, I imagine M4A would do fine in some parts and terrible in others and I expect that would more or less mirror the ACA in that the more dense States would gate better because you already have decent access now people would just paying less which would be great for people in cities but for the rural areas where Obamacare isn't as popular and Medicaid expansion also wasn't popular you have shit access and going to M4A overnight wouldn't change that one iota except now those people are going to be paying for something they're barely using if at all.
If our culture regarding healthcare was one where everyone already used it all the time and rural people already drove to a metro area every year for minor things and routine check-ups M4A would be an easier sell to those regions but most people don't go unless they think they have a serious problem and it could be years to decades before they set foot in a hospital. They're not going to want to pay more taxes nor will they see the same immediate benefit of M4A that people in a metro area will.
We'll be saying the coverage and benefits will be equal but they clearly won't be, so unless a M4A bill is preceded by a mass hiring of health care professionals and expansion of rural access I imagine even more apprehension to M4A from the same States that hated the ACA and that was already enough States to gut the ACA and was absolutely enough States to repeal the ACA, last minute fuckery excepted.
It's totally not a slam dunk. If we could pass it and hold the government long enough for it to be good I think the plan would be a winner, but it being good in LA, New York, Dallas, Austin, San Francisco, Philadelphia, you get the idea, that's not enough to save it. Those areas already trend blue and won't be the areas that decide it's fate.