WaPo: CIA secretly owned Swiss company that sold IT software to >120 countries, allowing it to spy on all communications

Mantrox

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Oct 27, 2017
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Rushersauce

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,386
A very substantial and intelligent response, thank you.



Ah, a classic "both sides". I understand your concerns, but to suggest that the US and China are even remotely comparable with regard to the domestic and global order they envision and have promoted is ridiculous.
Someone (you) has no idea about the global order the U.S.A has envisioned, it seems.

All the coups backed by the U S in L.A. all the interventions in the middle east, and Africa.
Sure, the US has not killed its own people (sic), but they sure have helped to kill MILLIONS of foreigners.
 
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Masoyama

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,607
User banned (1 week): Dismissing concerns surrounding imperialism.
So listening to civilians being thrown out of airplanes over the atlantic is statecraft now?
As much as nations holding the right of capital punishment over its citizens and the righteousness in killing civilians during war.
 

absolutbro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,526
So listening to civilians being thrown out of airplanes over the atlantic is statecraft now?
What exactly did you want the US or West Germany to do? Literally every country with an intelligence agency hears horrible things all the time, but for the most part do not have the actual ability to act on even half of what they hear. Things are murkier now with drones, but naturally even those have their own host of issues.
 

caffe misto

Member
Oct 25, 2017
552
the electric city
A very substantial and intelligent response, thank you.

Ah, a classic "both sides". I understand your concerns, but to suggest that the US and China are even remotely comparable with regard to the domestic and global order they envision and have promoted is ridiculous.
If I were trying to defend the US government, the global order they've tried to enforce over the last century is the last thing I would bring up.
 

Chopchop

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,103
Interesting, but scary. It's real life conspiracy theorist stuff.

If they were able to pull this off in the 70s and are willing to declassify it, then who knows what they're doing right now?

Well, stuff like this is why Snowden is living in Russia right now.
 

Nocturne

Member
Oct 25, 2017
205
A very substantial and intelligent response, thank you.
generally i try to tailor my posts to the level of the ones I am responding to

also because no one here clapping about this actually seems to have read the article (and I am simply being charitable in this assumption because this is already being discussed):

The papers largely avoid more unsettling questions, including what the United States knew — and what it did or didn’t do — about countries that used Crypto machines while engaged in assassination plots, ethnic cleansing campaigns and human rights abuses.

The revelations in the documents may provide reason to revisit whether the United States was in position to intervene in, or at least expose, international atrocities, and whether it opted against doing so at times to preserve its access to valuable streams of intelligence.
In 1982, the Reagan administration took advantage of Argentina’s reliance on Crypto equipment, funneling intelligence to Britain during the two countries brief war over the Falkland Islands, according to the CIA history, which doesn’t provide any detail on what kind of information was passed to London. The documents generally discuss intelligence gleaned from the operation in broad terms and provide few insights into how it was used.
among the many other things that the program enabled that has already been brought up and you might have seen if you actually read the thread (again, very charitably assuming no):

Not sure if if is in the WaPo report but according to ZDF the US and germans also kept quiet about state murder (example is argentina in the 70s where they had evidence the military junta threw people out of planes over the atlantic)they were observing through this.


They also used this tech in chile during the 70s to topple the regime.
They had troop movements of the argentinians during the falkland war and helped the UK.
They used this to extract intel from iran during the hostage crisis.
They also surveiled allies like ireland, portugal or spain. Germans apparently were against this.

Germans left the program during reunification but the CIA kept it going until 2017.
but yeah the usa and china are so different. one variety of regime changes, coups, assassinations, and ethnic cleansing is good and the other is you know. bad.
 

Rehynn

Member
Feb 14, 2018
344
While US has a metric shitton of problems let not compare it to China in those regards.
Yeah, I absolutely and deeply appreciate and share people's fervor when it comes to being aware and critical of injustice even at home and in allied countries, but to suggest that the US is comparable to China in this regard is so ridiculous I don't even know where to begin.
 

fanboi

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
4,295
Sweden
For all the evidence we have the US has been far more infringing on peoples rights in the last century but i guess it's "smart" or "badass" when it is foreigners affected
Oh yes that I agree on, but compared to human rights and what is happening today China is by far much worse then the US is. So you have to take that into context when the different countries do intelligence gathering, while both are bad and horrible, one is using it to fill death camps for muslims and throw dissisents into jail.
 

SG-17

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,424
What exactly did you want the US or West Germany to do? Literally every country with an intelligence agency hears horrible things all the time, but for the most part do not have the actual ability to act on even half of what they hear. Things are murkier now with drones, but naturally even those have their own host of issues.
Indeed. I mean they did put this intelligence to good use, such as aiding the British in the Falklands War.
 

BossAttack

Member
Oct 27, 2017
19,318
What the actual fuck. The US Government deserves all the fucking distrust they get, dont they?
I'm going to let you in on a little secret. Come closer.

*in hushed whispers*

Governments spy on other governments. The role of the Central Intelligence Agency is to spy on foreign governments.

*backs away, slowly*

Yes, it is a swell morning.
 

RoninStrife

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,867
Yes. As do most governments
Most Governments though dont have these kinds of resources. To infringe on other nations privacy etc without FEAR of REPRISALS. Well, that sounds like it takes a special kind of asshole to run the US Government. I'm sure this worked out quite well with Israel selling secrets to foreign Governments like South Africa during apartheid (Rooivulk and AH60 projects) or other covert intelligence dealings involving business and investment etc. Theres a side to this we arent seeing.
 
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Freakzilla

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
4,630
User Banned (3 months): Xenophobia
generally i try to tailor my posts to the level of the ones I am responding to

also because no one here clapping about this actually seems to have read the article (and I am simply being charitable in this assumption because this is already being discussed):




among the many other things that the program enabled that has already been brought up and you might have seen if you actually read the thread (again, very charitably assuming no):



but yeah the usa and china are so different. one variety of regime changes, coups, assassinations, and ethnic cleansing is good and the other is you know. bad.
The only reason people say USA ok China bad is because we have much more personal freedom and more advancements/regulations in medicine, hygiene, and overall health.
 

Nocturne

Member
Oct 25, 2017
205
Oh yes that I agree on, but compared to human rights and what is happening today China is by far much worse then the US is. So you have to take that into context when the different countries do intelligence gathering, while both are bad and horrible, one is using it to fill death camps for muslims and throw dissisents into jail.
it’s not about what the us ‘is’, this conversation is explicitly about what the cia and the us government either were complicit in or directly enabled. for all of the ccp’s many faults and human rights abuses it’s probably a lot less responsible for south/central american lives than the cia and the usa is

Nobody has said anything of the sort, but by all means, have fun arguing with a straw man.
i thought that was being suggested when the only defense for the substantially more muted response to a decades long spy operation involved with killing or imprisoning at least tens of thousands of people is that of course it’s different if china were doing it instead. it’s just different.
 

Hierophant

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,047
Sydney
Oh yes that I agree on, but compared to human rights and what is happening today China is by far much worse then the US is. So you have to take that into context when the different countries do intelligence gathering, while both are bad and horrible, one is using it to fill death camps for muslims and throw dissisents into jail.
About to go ask my Iraq War refugee friend if he thinks the US or China is a greater evil.
 

Mantrox

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,548
I'm not sure what would change on my quote.
Yours is the most sensible of the bunch, it's just that these stories of widespread spy operations seem so common place nowadays that i don't even know what to do or how to react.
The threads tend to boil down to who's the worst offender.
 

Freakzilla

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
4,630
Give me one piece of evidence of a country stealing billions of international communications per day that is not the US



Why do i have to choose between hitler and stalin?
Spying on other governments at the level the top players do so is not the sole reason to not trust a government.


It's ok, I have bad takes too. Everyone does. But this is not 'badass', it's frightening.
Not really frightening. This shit has been normalized. We may not know the exact extent of US spying but what the CIA, etc does has been completely normalized by all forms of media. Most Americans don't really care.
 

0VERBYTE

Member
Nov 1, 2017
3,983
Why do I have to choose? Can people not think both governments do terrible things?
That's the whole point of my statement. Both are evil but yes unfortunately you have to choose in this reality as both are vying for your displacement. And both are effecting you in some type of way in this world.
 

Nocturne

Member
Oct 25, 2017
205
this isn’t even actually about china in the first place. like the point is simply the cognitive dissonance those in the western sphere maintain around extremely sinister things that allowed or directly caused lives to be destroyed simply because they can rationalize it as happening in ‘their’ interest (as opposed to something else’s)

there is material, irreversible damage that stuff like this has done to human lives and the trajectory of history in general and I highly recommend some self reflection on why it’s ok to give out a free pass for our side when we would rightfully be horrified if it was anyone else’s
 

Kthulhu

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,140
That's the whole point of my statement. Both are evil but yes unfortunately you have to choose in this reality as both are vying for your displacement. And both are effecting you in some type of way in this world.
I'm not seeing how you come to that conclusion. I can think both governments are doing bad things and should stop. Who I "side" with does not affect their ability to commit atrocities.