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Hierophant

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,196
Sydney
right

(fwiw, US has been far worse globally)
He hasn't replied (I'm currently overseas and it'd be 1am or so in Australia) but for what it's worth, I grew up a couple suburbs over from the largest refugee resettlement area in Australia, I've grown up, went to school and worked with Middle Eastern refugees and their children for most of my life.

Not a single one has kind things to say about the United States, though funnily enough some of the older ones love China (And say the usual Nihao and xie xie to me). Speaking with the older guys, alot of them are mega pissed because all their education and experience at home counted for shit when they got to Australia, doctors becoming cabbies and that sort of thing (also the destruction of their homelands, that's a pretty big factor in the hatred I think. )
 

Sibylus

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,728
An empire and few moral scruples buys you a lot. Wish America wasn't full of shit on those counts.
 

Arcana Wiz

Member
Oct 26, 2017
817
While US has a metric shitton of problems let not compare it to China in those regards.

As someone from Latin America...
The US has done much more bad than China for us including killing, destabilizing governs and social order and funding dictatorships.

So yeah I'll always compare China and US as a third party to see which one benefits us more. Or at least don't fuck us over like US government.
 

Nocturne

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,728
Well if you want to make it more simpler how about the one that's actively placing filers in your life and telling you what you can and can't look at on the Internet or in a movie theatre?
not sure how hard it is for you to grasp that someone who's home got bombed by the usa or jailed unjustly from a fascist coup doesn't really care which country they will never see in person has more personal freedoms
 

Deleted member 38573

User requested account closure
Banned
Jan 17, 2018
3,902
He hasn't replied (I'm currently overseas and it'd be 1am or so in Australia) but for what it's worth, I grew up a couple suburbs over from the largest refugee resettlement area in Australia, I've grown up, went to school and worked with Middle Eastern refugees and their children for most of my life.

Not a single one has kind things to say about the United States, though funnily enough some of the older ones love China (And say the usual Nihao and xie xie to me). Speaking with the older guys, alot of them are mega pissed because all their education and experience at home counted for shit when they got to Australia, doctors becoming cabbies and that sort of thing (also the destruction of their homelands, that's a pretty big factor in the hatred I think. )

Don't blame them. China'll rob you with a smile. America with a bomb or two.
 

Freakzilla

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
5,710
Well if you want to make it more simpler how about the one that's actively placing filers in your life and telling you what you can and can't look at on the Internet or in a movie theatre?

The people who would side with China are being less selfish in that their personal freedoms being infringed is better than global destabilization/atrocities.
 

Xando

Member
Oct 28, 2017
27,322
Well if you want to make it more simpler how about the one that's actively placing filers in your life and telling you what you can and can't look at on the Internet or in a movie theatre?
When has china stolen my data compared to the US doing it everyday?

Even this post (assuming ERA only has servers in the US) is getting intercepted by the NSA
 

zeroOman

Member
Oct 27, 2017
679
That's the whole point of my statement. Both are evil but yes unfortunately you have to choose in this reality as both are vying for your displacement. And both are effecting you in some type of way in this world.
ppl think that there gov (USA) care about democracy and freedom of other nation.... but they care about what benefit they will get... like in EGYPT and Saudi Arabia and these country is rule by dictatorship and u keep supporting them....
 

Freakzilla

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
5,710
not sure how hard it is for you to grasp that someone who's home got bombed by the usa or jailed unjustly from a fascist coup doesn't really care which country they will never see in person has more personal freedoms

You're looking it from the eyes of the victims while those who side with the USA are looking it through their own eyes.


ppl think that there gov (USA) care about democracy and freedom of other nation.... but they care about what benefit they will get... like in EGYPT and Saudi Arabia and these country is rule by dictatorship and u keep supporting them....

Most people not only don't care about what happens outside of the USA, the thought doesn't even cross most people's minds.
 

Xando

Member
Oct 28, 2017
27,322
The people who would side with China are being less selfish in that their personal freedoms being infringed is better than global destabilization/atrocities.
My personal freedom is getting infringed by the US everytime i use the internet but that is ok as long as it's not the chinese i guess
 

Freakzilla

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
5,710
My personal freedom is getting infringed by the US everytime i use the internet but that is ok as long as it's not the chinese i guess

Everyone knows that their personal freedoms will be infringed. Everyone knows they will be spied on. We as a people have completely accepted that. It's to what degree and by who that we care about now. If it's within our own system. I.e Americans getting spied on by Americans then it's w.e. what will they really do with it? If it's a foreign govt then we are less sure of what's going on and we rationalize that we are more in danger if it's someone not only spying on us but also infiltrating our bubble.
 

Kthulhu

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,670
Exactly why I said there is a greater and lesser evil here.

Imagine if I compared the Nazis to the Soviets. Sure you can make that argument but it's ultimately irrelevant because both were terrible.

I'm not comparing China or the US to Nazi Germany or Soviet Russia but my point still stands. Both countries do terrible things and arguing about whose supposedly better is ultimately irrelevant and only exists so people can downplay their preferred countries harmful actions.
 

AndyD

Mambo Number PS5
Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,602
Nashville
This is like 3 movies waiting to happen. Tom Hanks as the director of the company, juggling public image and private secrets.
 
Jan 10, 2018
6,327
A very substantial and intelligent response, thank you.



Ah, a classic "both sides". I understand your concerns, but to suggest that the US and China are even remotely comparable with regard to the domestic and global order they envision and have promoted is ridiculous.

Goverment wise, you could have picked a better time to say something nice about America
 

Irminsul

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,039
Weirdly enough, this isn't exactly news. There's a (German) Spiegel article from 1996(!) talking about exactly the same thing (via Hacker News):

Doch hinter der gediegenen Fassade wurde offenbar die dreisteste Geheimdienstfinte des Jahrhunderts inszeniert: Deutsche und amerikanische Dienste stehen im Verdacht, bis Ende der achtziger Jahre Cryptos Schutzgeräte so manipuliert zu haben, daß ihre Codes im Handumdrehen zu knacken waren.
(Rough translation by me) Behind the dignified facade, the most audacious ruse of the century carried out by an intelligency agency was taking place: German and American agencies are suspected to have manipulated Crypto's security devices in such a way until the end of the 1980s that the codes they used were cracked easily.

www.spiegel.de

»Wer ist der befugte Vierte?«

Die Schweiz ist ein verschwiegener Ort. Ungezählte Schwarzgeldmillionen genießen Asyl in den diskreten Bankhäusern der Republik. Hier gedeiht auch ein Gewerbe gut, das ohne Öffentlichkeit auskommt: die Fabrikation von Verschlüsselungsgeräten. Allererste…
 

Deleted member 11413

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
22,961
What are you asking me? I don't see the connection you're trying to make.
Why does it matter, specifically in regards to foreign espionage, if the US has some semblance of civil liberties and China has none, when the CIA has been instrumental in preventing other nations from having civil liberties and a stable society?
 

Nocturne

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,728
extremely funny to be so hung up on the relative good of the 'global order' that america envisioned, weird how many cia trained and funded death squads were necessary for that
 

Deleted member 4783

Oct 25, 2017
4,531
Why does it matter, specifically in regards to foreign espionage, if the US has some semblance of civil liberties and China has none, when the CIA has been instrumental in preventing other nations from having civil liberties and a stable society?
Basically "FUCK YOU, GOT MINE"
 

Freakzilla

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
5,710
Why does it matter, specifically in regards to foreign espionage, if the US has some semblance of civil liberties and China has none, when the CIA has been instrumental in preventing other nations from having civil liberties and a stable society?


You're looking it from the eyes of the victims while those who side with the USA are looking it through their own eyes.




Most people not only don't care about what happens outside of the USA, the thought doesn't even cross most people's minds.

It doesn't matter in regards to espionage. That's not why they are saying USA is better.

Basically "FUCK YOU, GOT MINE"


Basically this. That's what people are arguing. The "USA better than China" group are arguing one thing while the "both bad" or "China better than USA" crowd are arguing another.
 

Deleted member 11413

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
22,961
Whether or not the average American cares about the damage the CIA has done is irrelevant to material cost of the damage they've done. You keep portraying this as "well Americans don't care" but you are the one who rushed in to post that it was badass on the first page...
 

0VERBYTE

Banned
Nov 1, 2017
5,555
When has china stolen my data compared to the US doing it everyday?

Even this post (assuming ERA only has servers in the US) is getting intercepted by
Isn't there a government issued social caste system being created in China that will control what type of job you can get and what you can and can't do with your money?
lolling if you think America is the good guy
I'm rolling if you think China is the good guy here. A place where if you say anything remotely bad about God emperor Xi you'll have people at your door the very next day. Who the fuck wants to live where you can't speak out about the horrible shit your president and government do. Come on here people...
 

Freakzilla

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
5,710
Whether or not the average American cares about the damage the CIA has done is irrelevant to material cost of the damage they've done. You keep portraying this as "well Americans don't care" but you are the one who rushed in to post that it was badass on the first page...

There isn't really an argument here. I don't know what else you want me to say.
 

Nocturne

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,728
Again, nobody said anything of the sort. You keep arguing with nobody.
i guess i'm extremely stupid because i have no idea how to read a post like this and think to myself, oh. of course. america wasn't justified at all in doing what it has done to many countries and peoples.

Ah, a classic "both sides". I understand your concerns, but to suggest that the US and China are even remotely comparable with regard to the domestic and global order they envision and have promoted is ridiculous.
the global order that America 'envisioned' was one of imperial dominance that it has successfully maintained for decades and its' methods of 'promoting' that global order (that term is doing a lot of heavy lifting) happened to be at the expense of a lot of human lives. to be clear, you're not actually arguing against this if I have actually been misunderstanding you this whole time in which case I have no idea why you're posting anything at all

this is not about faffing about who had the more liberal reason to enable death squads, ethnic cleansing campaigns or military coups in spite of you repeatedly denying the things you are literally saying and suggesting
 

Bigwombat

Banned
Nov 30, 2018
3,416
I'm going to let you in on a little secret. Come closer.

*in hushed whispers*

Governments spy on other governments. The role of the Central Intelligence Agency is to spy on foreign governments.

*backs away, slowly*

Yes, it is a swell morning.
You ever see the back of a twenty dollar bill, man? In the bushes there's the patriot act. Oh shit, check out the nsa's Nevada building up in the tree. Like wow there's even a stingray in that pond over there.... Man!
Red team go!
 

RoninStrife

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,002
Americans get a free pass from many in this thread because most people here are American. The greater good is OUR greater good. Not the world.
Well, that's rich in a mostly left leaning liberal forum, especially with Bernie inclinations. How does one not see the wrong in this? ESPECIALLY because they used this intelligence and turned a blind eye to many an evil, such as Israel and Apartheid South Africa background deals, shady business and stock trading etc.
Israel was shady af with Apartheid South Africa, same with its dealings even involving US technology. One instance is the Nuclear dealings with the Apartheid regime, it was rumored Israel gave US technology to the apartheid regime that formed the basis of the Koeberg Nuclear Power Plant. They apparently sold illegally, US Nuclear enrichment tech to them. Then sold US Kommache and Apache combat helicopter technology illegally to the Apartheid South Africa, which became the Denel built Rooivalk. One of many shady things the US turned a blind eye too.




en.m.wikipedia.org

Denel Rooivalk - Wikipedia




 
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BossAttack

Member
Oct 27, 2017
43,004
They used that intel to help overthrow democratically elected countries and help install brutal dictators like Pinochet.

I fail to see what relevant that has to do with the collection of said intelligence. The purpose of the CIA is to spy on foreign government, I expect them to do that. What policymakers choose to do with said intelligence is a separate discussion.
 

mutantmagnet

Member
Oct 28, 2017
12,401
I respect the hustle of the CIA to not use an American company to avoid scrutiny.

I will be very interested in reading this article.
 

Freakzilla

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
5,710
Well, that's rich in a mostly left leaning liberal forum, especially with Bernie inclinations. How does one not see the wrong in this? ESPECIALLY because they used this intelligence and turned a blind eye to many an evil, such as Israel and Apartheid South Africa background deals, shady business and stock trading etc.

Many are left leaning, liberal, Bernie supporters. By only some of them care about what happens outside our borders. And even less care enough to think about it more than once a month.
 

Deleted member 11413

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
22,961
There isn't really an argument here. I don't know what else you want me to say.
That this practice has been harmful for the world? That inspire of using the justification of 'protecting the world' the CIA knew of many atrocities bring committed and did nothing to stop them or in many cases facilitated those atrocities? Seems pretty clear to me.
 

Xando

Member
Oct 28, 2017
27,322
I fail to see what relevant that has to do with the collection of said intelligence. The purpose of the CIA is to spy on foreign government, I expect them to do that. What policymakers choose to do with said intelligence is a separate discussion.
The CIA literally organized a coup in chile with this intel lol
 

Nocturne

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,728
really be using the 'guns don't kill people, people kill people' defense for the fucking cia lol