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WaPo: CIA secretly owned Swiss company that sold IT software to >120 countries, allowing it to spy on all communications
- Thread starter chadskin
- Start date
All the middle-east countries looking at your comment be like........
The US has 100% killed US citizens. I know you put a (sic) there, but it should be made abundantly clear.
There's not enough information in the article to suggest that Chile was a customer of Crypto AG prior to the installation of Pinochet; Pinochet, Allende, Chicago, etc., never appear in the article. Chile is listed as a customer, appearing once in thousands and thousands of words, but there's no mention of that prior to Pinochet's installation or after, it could have been any time in between ~1946 and the late-90s, at least from the WaPo article... the 96-pages of documents may have more info but they're not searchable at this point, just images displayed in the text.
In any event, someone remarking how interesting the story is from from the perspective of the US and West Germany's espionage and counter-espionage battles with the Soviet Union, China, and others, does not mean they approve of the installation of dictatorships.
Beyond that, there's a reason why so much technology has the finger prints of the American government on it, the entire history of what would become the modern internet was funded by the Department of Defense. Even research and breakthroughs made by British scientists or European researchers was funded by the American Dept. of Defense. It wasn't all or even mostly nefarious, most research was done at places like Stanford, Cal Poly, MIT, Cambridge, and dozens of other schools and research groups by people who were legitimately interested in the civilian, benevolent use of technology ... But none of them would have jobs without the massive investment from the American military apparatus following World War II and up throughout the Cold War. We wouldn't have the internet, or videogames, or most certainly videogame-focused internet forums, without that military funding. Now, that doesn't mean that people who debate videogames on internet forums ultimately funded by the American, British, or West German war machines necessarily ascent to the installation of dictators in Chile, it's just that the evolution of both went hand in hand.
There's a new book about this that's pretty good:
A lot of the premise of the book is upending the dueling contrary opinions of Silicon Valley tech libertarianism or New Deal-era Liberalism, but it outlines the relationship between the American military establishment and just about all of the technology that that undergirds the modern internet. It was that unique relationship, funding but independence, that made it work.
*Edit*
Xando shared the German-language presentation of research which mentions Agentinian communication between Allende's Chile being decrypted by Crypto AG. I added a translation of it below:
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Since it's BHM we could have several threads on the Nazish Tuskegee Experiment
Tuskegee Experiment: The Infamous Syphilis Study | HISTORY
In order to track the disease’s full progression, researchers provided no effective care as the study's African American participants experienced severe health problems including blindness, mental impairment—or death.
www.history.com
Then again black people weren't really considered human by these people and Americans have a willful ignorance to things like this.
Threads like this are why I roll my eyes when people complain about ResetEra being a left leaning forum. Stuff like this is indefensible but people still justify it with a BUT CHINA, ignoring the fact that it is still bad, and that the USA has been doing this for decades, way before China was the power it is today.
I'm only a fraction of the way through this article, but it's some of the best journalism that I've read this year. If you're really focused on arguing takes based on the title, I'd recommend pausing and reading the content. It's illuminating. Especially if you're into the history of WWII and cold war espionage.
The WaPo article for some reason holds back a lot of shady stuff the CIA and BND did but the german article (ZDF originally got the report and shared with WaPo) goes into all the shady stuff they did and specifically mentions the role the NSA and this intel played in the Chile coup.
"Operation 'Rubikon'": #Cryptoleaks: Wie BND und CIA alle täuschten
BND und CIA haben grobe Menschenrechtsverletzungen verschwiegen, als sie heimlich Staaten ausspionierten.
I mean if Russia and China do it. We'd be dumb not to. No one should do it but you can't just let everyone else get over on you. Look what's happening with the Russian social media onslaught.
The WaPo article for some reason holds back a lot of shady stuff the CIA and BND did but the german article (ZDF originally got the report and shared with WaPo) goes into all the shady stuff they did and specifically mentions the role the NSA and this intel played in the Chile coup.
"Operation 'Rubikon'": #Cryptoleaks: Wie BND und CIA alle täuschten
BND und CIA haben grobe Menschenrechtsverletzungen verschwiegen, als sie heimlich Staaten ausspionierten.www.zdf.de
Awesome thanks for sharing, I'll update my post.
Translated via google:
We are talking about what China and the USA do in other countries. You say China doing it is worse because they have worse freedom for their own people. What people are telling you is that it doesnt matter that much if the US has better advancements in medicine while destabilizing half the globe for their own gain.
Like, again, we are talking about these countrie's international affairs, and you say one is worse than the other because of their internal affairs, while completely ignoring their, you know... actual international affairs. You don't make any sense.
At some point you're going to have to realize that what I'm saying is not that anything the US has done should be dismissed but that the whataboutism and "both sides"-ing over this matter with regard to China are ridiculous. The door is wide open, you're punching air, while missing/ignoring the point that I was actually making.
The CIA literally raped kids just to see the effects of trauma, human memory, and psycedelic drugs and we have people stanning smh.
yeah......
And people that says CIA is better than chinese secret service should study latin america history, fuck everyone in this thread that thinks thats cool and CIA are the good guys
You see, we're the good guys, that's why when we do it it's okay
Again, that is a decision by policymakers not the intelligence collection efforts.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Condor
Due to its clandestine nature, the precise number of deaths directly attributable to Operation Condor is highly disputed. Some estimates are that at least 60,000 deaths can be attributed to Condor, roughly 30,000 of these in Argentina,[8][9] and the so-called "Archives of Terror" list 50,000 killed, 30,000 disappeared and 400,000 imprisoned.
(...)
The United States government provided planning, coordinating, training on torture,[18] technical support and supplied military aid to the Juntas during the Johnson, Nixon, Ford, Carter, and the Reagan administrations.[2] Such support was frequently routed through the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA).
(...)
The program was developed following a series of government coups d'états by military groups, primarily in the 1970s:
That's just latin america, you have the same everywhere in the world.
Due to its clandestine nature, the precise number of deaths directly attributable to Operation Condor is highly disputed. Some estimates are that at least 60,000 deaths can be attributed to Condor, roughly 30,000 of these in Argentina,[8][9] and the so-called "Archives of Terror" list 50,000 killed, 30,000 disappeared and 400,000 imprisoned.
(...)
The United States government provided planning, coordinating, training on torture,[18] technical support and supplied military aid to the Juntas during the Johnson, Nixon, Ford, Carter, and the Reagan administrations.[2] Such support was frequently routed through the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA).
(...)
The program was developed following a series of government coups d'états by military groups, primarily in the 1970s:
- General Alfredo Stroessner took control of Paraguay in 1954.
- The Brazilian military overthrew the president João Goulart in 1964.
- General Hugo Banzer took power in Bolivia in 1971 through a series of coups.
- A civic-military dictatorship seized power in Uruguay on 27 June 1973.
- Forces loyal to General Augusto Pinochet bombed the presidential palace in Chile (La Moneda) on 11 September 1973, overthrowing democratically elected president Salvador Allende.
- A military junta headed by General Jorge Rafael Videla seized power in Argentina on 24 March 1976.
That's just latin america, you have the same everywhere in the world.
But it seems intel was gathered to help decide which policy to choose. Intel was gathered to effectively overthrow other countries for example. Applying policies which would benefit the US - wether it would imply morally false actions or break international law - was one of the main reasons, why intel was gathered in the first place, it is the purpose of gathering intel. You cannot seperate both, as both are connected.
You should ask yourself the question why intel was gathered in the first place.
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There are no ethics when it comes to the spy game. We don't use Huawei because we've already done what they are doing now. It takes one to know one. This is a zero sum game...and unfortunately a necessary one, as no one will ever cede playing it.
If you are not on top, you are below. There is no hypocrisy in acknowledging that we need to win, otherwise we'll be in a compromised position. To the contrary, acknowledging reality and playing the game well will keep us safer as a nation amongst others vying for competitive and military advantage.
If you are not on top, you are below. There is no hypocrisy in acknowledging that we need to win, otherwise we'll be in a compromised position. To the contrary, acknowledging reality and playing the game well will keep us safer as a nation amongst others vying for competitive and military advantage.
It is horrifying that people in this thread need a history lesson on why American foreign policy and espionage are maybe not things that the rest of the world celebrates, or how and why reactions would be markedly different if the countries behind this were those typcially cast as the villans. Subscribe to American exceptionalism if you must, but don't blind yourself to the fact that the US has largely operated in its 'best' interests, often at the cost to other nations of those things that Americans themselves seem to cherish.
I understand that every country would likely engage in this type of spying if they could, but as someone removed from the counter-intelligence community, I am not going to condone any activity that is socially immoral or is used to undermine the soverignty of another nation.
I understand that every country would likely engage in this type of spying if they could, but as someone removed from the counter-intelligence community, I am not going to condone any activity that is socially immoral or is used to undermine the soverignty of another nation.
He said earlier this month that the US should buy a part in the companies that rival Huawei in the 5g infrastructure... because Huawei is evil and spies on other countries. Just curious at what he thinks about this.
So the CIA can never be held responsible for its own actions. All responsibility for actions taken directly by the CIA fall on the "policymakers". They're just following orders and doing what they're trained to do. Even if that training means installing brutal dictators and overthrowing democratically elected leaders.
Why you're so desperate to separate the purpose of intelligence agencies to what is done with that intelligence is pretty weird seeing as the CIA is an extension of the state. It is one of the many cogs that help drive the imperialist empire. It also makes your line about how the purpose of the "CIA is to spy on foreign governments" moot because it's self-evident that's not the case. It's there to help ensure American hegemony through whatever means necessary utilising the tools it is given. Policymakers and the CIA work together to achieve the same goal because they are part of the same thing.
Domestic policy is the only thing the bootlicker can defend in the attempt to "prove" the United States is a moral actor. And even then, it's patchy at best.
They indeed are. China doesn't have a history of creating terrorist groups. Or attacking countries for oil. Or falsely framing Indian rocket scientists in a spy scandal to prevent India from acquiring cryogenic rocket tech (which would've competed with NASA's wildly profitable commercial satellite launching service).
I could go on with USA's bloody and despicable past and present when it comes to everything from human rights to illegal interference in other countries.
What China is doing to its citizens (especially Uighur Muslims) is terrible, but let's not pretend that USA is any better. To its own citizens, sure, it might be the mecca of human rights and first world pleasures. But it has spent the last half-century completely wrecking the rest of the world.
Lets not leave out that the POTUS is most likely a russian asset doing their bidding.
It's not it's mostly hype.
First country to use tanks on it's citizens and they were WW1 vets. Even using you're half a century comment in the 80s it had no problem letting black citizen get bombed. Sucks on LGBTQ rights. Doesn't care to deal with banks redlining or not giving loans to bascially anyone that isn't connected or light skinned enough. Lies about it's understanding of tech and lets service platform providers and isps traffic in tons of crimes when it could do a to to prevent it. I don't see how a country that allows so much sex slave trafficing cares about human rights. The only time rights and freedom are brung up is when it's often used to oppress others in some form.
I say this as an american. we both could get started but the plebs will make excuses in the name of nationalism.
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You know very damn well why. People want to pretent shit isn't as bad as it actually is, "we're the good guys, we couldn't possibly do that", plus a sprinkle of "guns don't kill people, people kill people" bullshit.
People don't want to go to sleep and night and think that they way they live, the things they how, how they act might be fueling / propping up something bad. They compartmentalize it, change the name, who's responsible, etc.
"They were just following orders".
Decisions made at the recommendations of the intelligence agencies. You think the CIA is some neutral party in all this?
I expect the U.S. to pursue avenues that would benefit the U.S., yes. That does not mean the execution or pursuit of actions are above reproach. But, the purpose of the CIA is to gather intelligence from foreign governments for the sole purpose of benefiting the U.S. That is the reason intelligence is gathered, to benefit the U.S.
Since when did I say that? The actions of the CIA during the Cold War, especially in Latin America, is well-documented and repugnant. But, the CIA did not operate alone they did so at the behest of policymakers and politicians in league capitalist top-men.
First, you not going to get far debating with me by describing the U.S. as an "imperialist empire," its reductive and simple-minded. And, once again, yes I expect the CIA to gather intelligence for the sole purpose of benefiting the U.S. That's the entire point of the CIA. To protect the continued existence of the State and our position as a global leader.
Were really going to make the argument "they were just following orders!" here, huh? Gross.
at least you are being honest....and that i can get by. I rather know the 'true intent' than the 'we are gonna free the people and introduce liberty to this country' bullcrap.
Reductive and simple-minded is saying the CIA are just following orders. It's some dumb fucking shit.
Of course the CIA doesn't act alone. It's a part of the machine. That's the whole point.
Who says they're not? Ever wonder who actually owns those "surf anonymously" VPNs that are popular now? Or the nodes "deep web" browsers like Tor uses?
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The US is imperialist though. If people arent going to get anywhere arguing with you by...introducing facts into the discussion then why even comment?
Earlier you wrote:
"I fail to see what relevant that (note: "that " refering to overthrowing democratic leaders and installing US-friendly dictators with help of gathered intel by CIA) has to do with the collection of said intelligence."
Now you are writing that intel is gathered to benefit the US and that there is a reason behind it. So you should now be able to see the "relevance" between the collection of intelligence and american actions you were not seeing in the first place.
Owning a VPN company (to talk about your suggestion, not saying they are or aren't doing that) is nowhere on the same level as what they accomplished with Crypto AG. At all.
And Tor is an open-source project, where everyone can routinely check what happens. What you're suggesting there is just conspiracy level FUD.
the cia did not only got intel, they acted actively, teaching how to turture, getting in contact to make coups, giving training money, plans, creating propaganda, killing etc
CIA Terms of Service
By using our services, you agree that;
1. The CIA cannot be held responsible for the actions of the CIA.
2. The CIA refer all complaints to the Policymaker State Department.
As an European you can make a strong argument that America's foreign policy and interventions are way, way worse than China's.
Let me ask you this, what do you think the role of the CIA should be?