Wow. Are you trans? Because it sure sounds like you're telling trans folx about our own community.
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WaPo: To some, this queer couple look straight. For him, that’s okay. But for her, it feels ‘like a lie.’
- Thread starter Syriel
- Start date
Wow. Are you trans? Because it sure sounds like you're telling trans folx about our own community.
I understand and agree, I just think that balancing is probably difficult. I hope they can master everything that comes their way, but it sounds hard.
I don't understand the need to bash either of them for wanting their identity acknowledged. Their relationship makes it harder to reconcile those desires, but them admitting as much doesn't make either of them unaccepting of the other. I feel there is a lot of projecting going on in this thread.
An odd thing to say to a trans woman who was ina similar situation.
Yeah, I don't think you should talk about trans issues, like ever. Being openly trans can be pretty fucking dangerous depending on where you live.
Besides that, it's up to them what they want to call themselfs.
User Banned (Permanent): Transphobia
I am not. I am a mental health counselor at an extremely diverse campus. I work with trans students very frequently (we have one of the largest trans populations of any school in America) and so my criticisms are based around the complaints my students have shared with me.
Just as you don't have to be a person of color to understand colorism, or a woman to understand how sexism can be perpetuated by women as well as men, you don't need to be trans to observe the ways that transphobia is perpetuated within the community.
The trans youth I work with would disagree with you. I'm the voice telling them "You don't need to spend thousands of dollars on jaw surgery to be a man, you always were one" instead of egging them on as they destroy their lives.
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Oh, no doubt it's difficult. I'm not sure what the answer here is; I also don't think anyone not a part of the relationship has any real business defining what they are for them. Kate should be able to say "yes, I'm a lesbian but I married him because I love him" without others stamping REVOKED on her lesbian card. Society's insistence on strict definitions, not her insistence on being seen as the lesbian she is, is what's at fault here.
So, cissplaining. No amount of working with trans people gives you the right to tell us how we should view and deal with issues in our own community. You're simply not as qualified as people who are actually trans.
I hope you can forgive me for being a traitor to not your cause.
Your rigid view on what being trans is outright harmful, and dare I say it.... problematic.
Not everyone who doesn't want to walk around with Hello I am Trans on their name tag is a product of self hate.
Not wanting everyone to know you as trans man or trans woman is doing so because they hate being trans or whatever else you want to psychoanalyze and diagnosis them with.
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It's about identity. If you've spent your whole life with people telling you you can't be gay, or it's sinful or a hundred thousand other hurtful things. Now imagine you've finally found a place in your life where you can be who you feel you've always been without judgement, with someone you love more than any other, and then they change who they are.
You still love them and want to be with them because the person they are hasn't changed... But now suddenly you aren't living a life that seems like you anymore. Now it feels like all those abusers won in the end, you've been forced to choose to "be straight" or lose the one you love.
It's not simply a matter of ignoring the world around you because no one loves in isolation.
Yup... people telling her she can't identify as a lesbian anymore are doing the "Well, TECHNICALLY" thing, which is usually a hugely stupid move.
She's a lesbian, her partner is a man, and that's fine. So I agree, them finding a balance with with how they identify and view each other is the easier part anyway, the main problem is others trying to police identities.
Not like I'm uncovering some deep mystery here, but damn, what a suprise. People being judgemental bastards is a problem yet again, who would've thunk
wow, savior complex much?
So everyone who wants surgery in order to pass so they can feel safer or more comfortable is actually transphobic? Is that really what you're saying? I want to make sure I'm getting this right. But for someone who claims to be a font of knowledge of trans people, you sure like to talk down to them.
Wanting to pass does not make someone anti-trans, and I'm kind of furious that you are counseling trans folks, because you have no idea what you're talking about.
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my grandma is going in to have a gastric bypass soon, im begging her not to throw her life away like that
That's not necessarily true. I knew a straight woman who dated another woman for two years. She never identified as anything but straight. She just really cared about her partner for the long time they were friends, and they caught feelings for each other. She'll never date another woman most likely.
People are complicated.
Supporting them when they want to get surgery is egging them on as they destroy their lifes? WTF?! You sound like the worst counselor ever.
People are complex and yall are very judgemental up in here. Most of yall didnt even read the actual article before commenting.
In other words, youre going to take an incredibly complicated situation and simplify to a ridiculous degree.
My statement doesn't apply to you, then - I see how my post could have given the impression that it does, and I apologize for expressing myself poorly. I moved very quickly from a specific comment to my feelings about a general phenomenon exactly because I'm not in a position to sit in judgment of you personally.
Quoting the whole thing because yeah, this, 100%. It's not "privilege" to be identified as something you're not if that's not something you want to be identified as.
You mean like how you're doing right now by quoting the first of my posts and not addressing any of the ensuing discussion that dealt with the non-relationship between gender and attraction, how said attraction isn't the issue I'm raising, and how thinking of the relationship as "queer" invalidates his status as a man?
Man, I wouldn't want to do that, thanks for the heads up
Mothballs quoted the entire first post you made to this thread! Given that it's pretty disingenuous to try and imply that Mothballs is somehow taking what you're saying out of context just because other people subsequently pointed out the serious problems with that post and you later halfheartedly tried to justify that statement.
Oh, you mean the discussion that occured only after others called you out.
I can see what you're saying. Sometimes the pursuit of passing and "failing" comes at great emotional cost contributing to the rejection of oneself. I don't, won't, and will never pass. It's something I've comes to terms with and feel all the more better about. For ME personally endless chasing of passing would have been devastating
If by calling out you mean made weird replies that I dealt with by reiterating my original point, which other trans people in this thread are also making, sure. Like what are you doing here, joining the "it's not fair to call that transphobic" crowd? Do you expect me to view that as being "called out?" Are you under the impression I'm going to take someone's side besides the trans person's right now or I'm interested in points of view that defend someone's desire to think of someone as a gender other than the one they identify with just because they want to be "queer?" Spoiler alert: no, and also: get lost.
Thank you. This is exactly the point I'm making.
Broadly, those motivated by passing rather than transitioning. I've aided at least a dozen students in pursuing safe transitions (and the necessary surgeries involved), so I'm far from the enemy here.
It's not like I'm taking a baseless stance in any of this. My general experience has been that the students who transition and openly identify as trans go on to lead healthier lives. Those who obsess over passing end up struggling socially (especially in complex relationships like the one highlighted in this thread) and spending thousands on cosmetic surgeries that they're rarely satisfied with.
I'm not saying "don't identify as cis," but I am saying "it's not healthy to be obsessed with others perceiving you as cis, especially at the cost of your relationships and mental health."
You don;t know that he's obsessed, all you know is that he doesn't want to wear a name tag that says "hello I'm trans ask me how" on his shirt.
You then waltzed in and started talking about how that's problematic and somehow ended up also concluding that it's also transphobic of him and any trans person who supports his decision.
Maybe you mean well, but the fact that you are straight up ignoring all of the trans people in this thread telling you that some of your methods are problematic at best and are harmful to some is the real telling point.
Therapists shouldn't be closed minded, and they should listen to the people who actually go through these experiences every day versus deciding you have a one size fits all panacea to something most professionals the world over are still coming to grips with.
you keep responding to any concerns any of us trans people express - for instance that your beliefs seem to be fairly rigid and inflexible and that you give the strong impression that you believe you know what is best for trans people, better than trans people ourselves do - by telling us what a good and compassionate person you are, while minimizing or dismissing the actual concerns we are bringing up. i can't say this is making me feel any better. maybe it's making you feel better about yourself though?
Fucking this, all of it.
I know the struggle of having decent therapists who listen to you. In my case, my soon-to-be-ex-therapist was adamant that there was no way I was autistic. I finally had to go to an actual licensed expert psychologist with decades of experience and a PhD to get assessed, on my own dime because the therapist refused to have me assessed. After going through the ADOS assessment and taking my in-depth history, it was confirmed that I am, in fact, autistic. Yet the therapist (a LCSW) still won't accept the diagnosis.
Therapists aren't perfect, and they sure as fuck don't know more about the person they're treating than the person themselves. Especially when they ignore the voices of those of us who are more qualified to know what it's like to be trans (or autistic) by virtue of, you know, actually being trans.
Does this woman actually want to call the relationship queer? Or is she afraid that others won't understand that just because she's made an exception with this man it doesn't change her identity? Being concerned with not having her identity erased doesn't necessarily equate to wanting to invalidate his identity. In my mind, the fact that she's conflicted means she absolutely does view him as the man he is.
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People aren't mind readers? Wear a bisexual flag pin or something that indicates that you're bisexual if the lack of recognition bothers you so much?
Wow. First off, I absolutely acknowledge a basic trans right to self-determination. I don't want some cis person coming in telling me who I am and what I'm allowed to want or feel. Fed up with cis nonsense? Yep, I get that.
So I'm speaking to you as a trans person. I'm not speaking to the unnamed trans people you're claiming are backing you up, because I haven't seen evidence of that in this thread; they can speak for themselves if they agree with you. I'm talking to you.
I have a problem with the first post you made in this thread. My take is that you were drawing strong judgments that weren't supported by the evidence at hand and that you were spreading shame in a place where it wasn't necessary or warranted.
If you disagree with that, that's valid. If you're angry about that, that's also valid. What I have a hard time seeing as valid is to take your own stuff and put it on other people, or to claim your personal feelings are a universal shared experience of the trans community. For me, my experiences as a trans person drive me to treat other people - particularly other LGBTQ people - to the greatest extent possible, with kindness, understanding, and respect, because that is the way I would like to be treated.
Yeah, that's how I see this as well. It's not exactly your every day situation, what matters is that two people found love.
So, I know you've rightly been banned for 5 days, but on the off chance you're reading this: if you consider pursuing passing to be transphobic and hurtful, how is getting surgery to transition: (spoiler alert: for many trans people passing and transitioning are largely the same thing) any different? After all, all trans people are valid. So isn't wanting gender confirmation surgery or anything like that also a sign of internalized transphobia, by your own logic?
I would like other trans perspectives on this as well!
Fair enough, it can definitely be taken as "gross" or insensitive, but it's not my only post. Read further (if you care).
I've since started to come off my original assessment and am of the opinion that her partner's attitude plays a major problem. She's basically forced to play a role that runs counter to how she Identifies and it makes her very uncomfortable. I'm not sure what the actual solution is however.
I mean, it seems like it's either break up, convince your partner to identify as trans, or perpetually correct anyone that audibly assumes your straight—that you're not.
Edit: Also, she's doesn't seem upset that he got the surgery to match his gender identity. But more that by doing so, her (identity) is redefined by other people. Otherwise they are both perfectly in love and happy with one another.
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I'd give my left nut (plus the right and the stick shift) to have an equivalent woman's body. I couldn't pass at all. So I rock this body and it's good, albeit one that will never be immediately recognised as what I identify as. Which is something I have to battle with, but am content in doing.
If I could have a few surgeries and get to that? Bitch please. I'd flatten the door on the way to the receptionist.
Anyone that knows that's what they want and what they aim for and can do it? Fucking power to you. Why in all that's holy would you recommend someone trans, that's actively looking to pass as the gender they are in a largely transphobic (at best ignorant) world, slap a neon pink bubble-writing sticker on their back saying "btw, I'm trans". Like it's a required addendum to every greeting you have.
If they themselves do, I'll print the sticker out for them but for that to be the "recommended route" from someone that isn't even trans is like, what are you even doing?
If I could have a few surgeries and get to that? Bitch please. I'd flatten the door on the way to the receptionist.
Anyone that knows that's what they want and what they aim for and can do it? Fucking power to you. Why in all that's holy would you recommend someone trans, that's actively looking to pass as the gender they are in a largely transphobic (at best ignorant) world, slap a neon pink bubble-writing sticker on their back saying "btw, I'm trans". Like it's a required addendum to every greeting you have.
If they themselves do, I'll print the sticker out for them but for that to be the "recommended route" from someone that isn't even trans is like, what are you even doing?
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You know people will have to choose if being trans makes you less of a man than being cis or not. Because if it doesn't, then this wouldn't help. And if it does, then it means forcing trans men to treat themselves like second class men at best.
That's also the reason most trans people want to pass a cis, since if we don't we often aren't seen as real man or woman. Even in progressive spaces. Passing isn't motivated by transphobia in the trans community, it's motivated by transphobia in cis society. That said passing can become a very toxic topic in trans circles as well. If you ever see someone talk about head size standard deviation, run and don't look back.
That said this topic has made me really glad about three things:
- Not having any relationship before transition that could go up in flames or become super complicated
- Apparently being a lesbian, so all my relationships will be queer anyway
- Having a therapist who actually listens to me
Edit: Thanks for that detailed explanation Juna!
Wouldn't it be cis men in particular?
Edit: I feel like I'm walking on eggshells with this topic
Is "passing" seen as a controversial thing among LGTBQ folk? I had no idea the term even existed until today, and this thread seems to be everywhere with regard to opinion on it all.
Wouldn't it be cis men in particular?
Edit: I feel like I'm walking on eggshells with this topic
Is "passing" seen as a controversial thing among LGTBQ folk? I had no idea the term even existed until today, and this thread seems to be everywhere with regard to opinion on it all.
I can't speak to anything wider than myself but if someone wants to be immediately recognised as the gender they identify with then I have zero issue.
For most non-trans folk it's something they've never had to consider let alone contend with, so the ignorance is understandable if met with a willingness to learn and an acceptance of something that is different to your own experience. I've no issue with ignorance when it's not coupled with pride and obstinence.
Hi Kyuuji! Thanks for offering to print the sticker for me but I already have it printed out. :) It's a really good question, though. I understand where you're at and I completely support that, but since you asked, I'll tell you why the sticker.
The truth of the matter is, I live in trans Valhalla. Why do I want to be out? Because I _can_. Because I live in a place where we've repeated "trans women are women" often enough that people, cis people, believe it, and accept me and are really actually proud of me. Enough people that if someone hates me or shames me or judges me for being trans, I can feel confident that that's their problem, not my problem.
And it's just not like that most places. Most people do not have that opportunity, and it makes me sad, and just like other people before me have dealt with a lot of shit so that I can be who I am now, I want to do my part to make a better world. I want everybody to be able to be who they are, "passing" or not.