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Nome

Designer / Self-requested ban
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,312
NYC
Why the fuck would you blindly pick the VA using only audio files? Is that common in the industry?


No, and it reeks of bullshit.
Don't know if it's common, but isn't it sort of the equivalent to not having a picture in a résumé?

I mean, at the end of the day, their voice is the only thing that's going to be heard by the audience.

Edit: Hmm, but not looking at the back catalogue/profile? That doesn't sound like standard practice for recruiting.
Yes, it's very common to use voice samples only, especially for indie studios, and doubly so if your voice talent is remote.
I'm curious what y'all think is the standard procedure for VA hires at indie studios. You're not exactly doing interviews and reading resumes like you would a normal member of the team. You put out a request, get some auditions, pick the one you want, send 'em a script, and that's about it.
 

Titik

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,490
Of course you wouldn't care because there isn't over-representation of PoC voice actors for white characters. Your "true equality" just sounds like colourblindedness (The Atlantic: Why Color-Blindness Is A Counterproductive Ideology) and lacks awareness of the different issues different people face. This colour-blind casting has revealed the unconscious biases and doesn't acknowledge the problem of representation. It's unintentional discrimination, but the result comes out to be whitewashing.
I don't think it's unintended anymore. Its shorthand for 'I don't care because it doesn't affect me'.
 

Xavi

Member
Oct 27, 2017
14,771
Lightning for Smash
Yes, it's very common to use voice samples only, especially for indie studios, and doubly so if your voice talent is remote.
I'm curious what y'all think is the standard procedure for VA hires at indie studios. You're not exactly doing interviews and reading resumes like you would a normal member of the team. You put out a request, get some auditions, pick the one you want, send 'em a script, and that's about it.
I don't know, that's why I asked if it was common
 

Titik

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,490
Seems pretty obvious to me. The devs took an unbiased, color-blind approach. Many people in this thread are saying that's not enough, and that they should have picked employees based on their skin color. And now the devs are being hounded on social media. That's essentially forced diversity.
I don't see a problem with 'forced diversity' personally speaking.
 

Messofanego

Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,101
UK
Yes, it's very common to use voice samples only, especially for indie studios, and doubly so if your voice talent is remote.
I'm curious what y'all think is the standard procedure for VA hires at indie studios. You're not exactly doing interviews and reading resumes like you would a normal member of the team. You put out a request, get some auditions, pick the one you want, send 'em a script, and that's about it.
If you have created PoC characters, wouldn't you send out a casting call for PoC voice actors? Otherwise why bother creating PoC characters to then whitewash them.
 

Deleted member 8593

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
27,176
As far as apologies go, it's not the worst. It reveals, ironically, a blind spot in their casting process that they luckily acknowledge. "Colour-blindness" is a harmful misconception and does not help to fix the systemic issues. Hopefully they take this as an opportunity to readjust their views and stances on the subject.
 

Nome

Designer / Self-requested ban
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,312
NYC
If you have created PoC characters, wouldn't you send out a casting call for PoC voice actors? Otherwise why bother creating PoC characters to then whitewash them.
Not the way I've done it in the past. I'd put out a character description with whatever concept art and personality quirks we were aiming for along with a sample script.

I don't even know how you'd put out a request for PoC only, or what the legality is around that.
 

Sky

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
97
UK
The first part of you post contradicts the last sentence though. Taking a colorblind approach is basically the opposite of acting on said biases.
I would disagree. You remove all forms of bias and only use audio data for its purpose. Some recruitment agencies and HR would edit peoples resume to make it neutral. The point is to make it so that the one making the decision have nothing that would influence their unconscious bias.
 

crienne

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,167
Not the way I've done it in the past. I'd put out a character description with whatever concept art and personality quirks we were aiming for along with a sample script.

I don't even know how you'd put out a request for PoC only, or what the legality is around that.

There's nothing illegal about a casting call like:
"Looking for a black male, 25-30, for role of a side character in our video game. Would prefer a natural British speaker, but if British accent can pass we may consider."
or
"Seeking female of South Asian origin to voice main character in game. Character is late-40s and written to be from Thailand and would prefer actors familiar with that language and accent."

What comes much closer to illegal is something like:
"Video game in need of voice actors for various characters. Caucasian, Asian, or Hispanic/Latino actors will not be considered for this role."
 

Arkaign

Member
Nov 25, 2017
1,991
The main problem here is that most minority actors will not get the opportunity to even get work in the first place to get the experience, get exposed to mentors, get the connections and all the other things that white actors typically take for granted and are privileged to have.

This is the same phenomena that happens with minority students and thier lower GPA and SAT scores compared to thier white counterparts when it comes to college admissions. You need education to get ahead in life but your situation also ensures that you get lower grades to prevent you from getting said education in the first place. It's a fucked up justification for color blindness and why affirmative action does and need to exist.

'The best person for the job/position/slot' is a convenient way to hand wave all these historical and structural issues that exist today.

I really deeply agree with this. I travel extensively for work. I see all kinds of cities, neighborhoods, and try to engage with people wherever I go.

Something that is incredibly obvious as you travel in the US specifically is how terribly uneven the schooling and opportunity metrics are, due to them being funded primarily by local property taxes instead of an equal playing field. So what you end up with is schools in poorer areas of economic strength have MUCH less diverse drama/STEM programs, if any. This isn't purely down to race either, but it's no secret that dominantly black or hispanic populated school districts are often poorly funded and staffed. Not going to be any better for white kids in a terrible school, poverty-stricken school district, but it's definitely more common for black and hispanic children to grow up with worse metrics for education as a whole, and the first things to be cut are drama and STEM.

So by the time you get to where you have aspiring VAs (which is going to take a certain amount of economic support to begin with!), you're very likely going to see a greater percentage of these people coming from school backgrounds that supported their career path way back when they were younger. Similar to how you get STEM programs dominated by more affluent districts feeding the pipeline of candidates and employees.

We have a broken society in terms of economic fairness, and by the time it gets allllllll the way to some indie game dev studio trying to find some VAs to say a few lines for their title, the problem is already a pretty big one.

I'd support a non profit group to fund outreach from POC VAs to speak at schools across the nation, to share their experiences in how they got where they are, how they feel and think about the industry and where it's going, etc. I feel may don't even know this is a possibility for them. But that would still be the smallest tip of the iceberg compared to the structural issues facing our children growing up in so many of our failing schools. It's just easier for many wealthier white people to ignore if they are ignorant of just how bad schools are for so much of our population. It's so stupid, because it affects all of us, and we should do better by our kids and each other.
 

Nome

Designer / Self-requested ban
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,312
NYC
There's nothing illegal about a casting call like:
"Looking for a black male, 25-30, for role of a side character in our video game. Would prefer a natural British speaker, but if British accent can pass we may consider."
or
"Seeking female of South Asian origin to voice main character in game. Character is late-40s and written to be from Thailand and would prefer actors familiar with that language and accent."

What comes much closer to illegal is something like:
"Video game in need of voice actors for various characters. Caucasian, Asian, or Hispanic/Latino actors will not be considered for this role."
Would've been good to know in 2010 when I was doing this sort of stuff :P
 

Deleted member 4274

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,435
Seems pretty obvious to me. The devs took an unbiased, color-blind approach. Many people in this thread are saying that's not enough, and that they should have picked employees based on their skin color. And now the devs are being hounded on social media. That's essentially forced diversity.
"Forced Diversity"... LMAO. Aight.
 

Titik

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,490
I really deeply agree with this. I travel extensively for work. I see all kinds of cities, neighborhoods, and try to engage with people wherever I go.

Something that is incredibly obvious as you travel in the US specifically is how terribly uneven the schooling and opportunity metrics are, due to them being funded primarily by local property taxes instead of an equal playing field. So what you end up with is schools in poorer areas of economic strength have MUCH less diverse drama/STEM programs, if any. This isn't purely down to race either, but it's no secret that dominantly black or hispanic populated school districts are often poorly funded and staffed. Not going to be any better for white kids in a terrible school, poverty-stricken school district, but it's definitely more common for black and hispanic children to grow up with worse metrics for education as a whole, and the first things to be cut are drama and STEM.

So by the time you get to where you have aspiring VAs (which is going to take a certain amount of economic support to begin with!), you're very likely going to see a greater percentage of these people coming from school backgrounds that supported their career path way back when they were younger. Similar to how you get STEM programs dominated by more affluent districts feeding the pipeline of candidates and employees.

We have a broken society in terms of economic fairness, and by the time it gets allllllll the way to some indie game dev studio trying to find some VAs to say a few lines for their title, the problem is already a pretty big one.

I'd support a non profit group to fund outreach from POC VAs to speak at schools across the nation, to share their experiences in how they got where they are, how they feel and think about the industry and where it's going, etc. I feel may don't even know this is a possibility for them. But that would still be the smallest tip of the iceberg compared to the structural issues facing our children growing up in so many of our failing schools. It's just easier for many wealthier white people to ignore if they are ignorant of just how bad schools are for so much of our population. It's so stupid, because it affects all of us, and we should do better by our kids and each other.
I think 'forced diversity' is still the easiest way to fix this. Once you have people of color and minorities 'forced' into these positions, you start a chain reaction of these very same people going back to their communities and giving back. They may start donating to their alma mater, start inspiring young folks to actually enter the fields, etc.

This already happens when affirmative action Is implemented at universities. You start giving people voices and they they will use it to represent themselves and their communities.
 

Deleted member 8561

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
11,284
A blind audition in a field where 90% of the applicants are white is not unbiased.

If the pool they are sourcing from is an industry that is populated by white people then the outcome of blind auditions will heavily tilt in that direction.

Which is why being aware and having some type of filter for the applicant pool for the blind auditions would be a way to possibly ease and mitigate this outcome, but as we've seen with how the design process works it's not as simple as that, especially for smaller studios on budgets.
 

Titik

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,490

'Such an approach falls neatly in line with the common refrain and excuse given for a lack of diversity in all manners of employment: it's about finding the "best person for the job." Such approaches often incorporate biases in how they define "best" and conveniently ignore how difficult it is for marginalized groups to even be in a position to be considered to be the "best person for the job," and so the cycle continues. In this case, the process determined that the best people to voice and help bring to life black characters were white people.'

————

Patrick Klepek explained it so much better than I ever could.

To all of you giving out the 'it doesn't matter to me so long as they get the BEST person for the job',please kindly read the article as to why that position is problematic.
 

Titik

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,490
You think every fictional voiced character should be voiced with a 1 to 1 representation of them? Leaving aside a facetious jab about what to do with non-human characters that's just simply not how things work. Nor, assuming as I said in my initial post that all minorities are given a fair audition, is there any reason it should work like that.
The problem is that it is nowhere close to 1:1 as an average in the industry. Like at all. So this hypothetical 'problem' doesn't even exist.
 
Oct 25, 2017
11,953
Houston
"it's fine folks! None of our POC's are even dark skinned even so we cool right? Maybe we can add a line that their mixed or something or how good and not dark their skin is""
 

CatAssTrophy

Member
Dec 4, 2017
7,609
Texas
Blindly choosing will lead to a disproportionately larger number of white VA's hired, because there already exists a larger number of experienced VA talent that's white than there does PoC VA's.

If PoC VA's can't ever land a gig because they don't sound as good as the ones they are blindly chosen over, they will never gain experience and improve. It's cyclical. That's why blindly hiring VA's isn't a good idea and should be heavily reconsidered.

I don't think CF or other devs do this with any malice, but I think it's an oversight they need to understand and improve on.
 

Teamocil

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,132
Yes, it's very common to use voice samples only, especially for indie studios, and doubly so if your voice talent is remote.
I'm curious what y'all think is the standard procedure for VA hires at indie studios. You're not exactly doing interviews and reading resumes like you would a normal member of the team. You put out a request, get some auditions, pick the one you want, send 'em a script, and that's about it.
Yep. I work in advertising. When we cast for VO only spots we don't look at headshots. It's strictly based on the samples were sent. It's not uncommon.
 

LossAversion

The Merchant of ERA
Member
Oct 28, 2017
10,659
Why the fuck would you blindly pick the VA using only audio files? Is that common in the industry?


It's very common when it comes to indie games. I used to audition all of the time for indie games/projects and they never asked for headshots or anything like that. A lot of indie projects can barely afford to pay the actors let alone pay for a casting director or studio time. Actors work from home most of the time and gigs rarely call for any face time with the developers. I don't know what the case was with the Wargroove developers but it would not surprise me at all if they simply cast people based off of their audition files. That's absolutely the norm for indie projects on a smaller budget.
 

funo

Member
Oct 27, 2017
432
Why the fuck would you blindly pick the VA using only audio files? Is that common in the industry?

Quick note from someone who has worked in this exact branch of the industry for over 10+ years now:

You don't cast the actor, you cast their voice. You don"t look at people"s resumes, you most certainly don"t ask for pictures or what ever, you just listen to audio samples and cast a voice for a role, nothing more, nothing less.
This is what happened here and this is what happens on every project, regardless of AAA or indie projects. The only time you look at headshots or cast specific people is when the devs request it.

In short: what happened here is absolutely the industry standard.

I am absolutely 100% sure nö harm was intended here although I can clearly see why this tweet and the way it was arranged has sparked an outrage.
 

rras1994

Member
Nov 4, 2017
5,742
Would've been good to know in 2010 when I was doing this sort of stuff :P
General rule: don't get legal advice from a forum.
Another general rule: look at the law in your region as it can vary greatly.

I know in the UK there are reasonable exemptions for the Equality act like for acting role if you need someone to play a certain character. Whether that would still apply to voice acting for a physical characteristic like skin colour which wouldn't be seen in the work is another thing in entirely. You probably get away with asking for a specific native accent though? I have seen job descriptions were they stated preference for someone of a certain group so that probably is allowed. Again, check local laws.

As for this situation, we should probably not just look at the proportion of white people doing poc roles but the overall no. of white people doing all voice work. Poc people are just as capable doing any of the roles, regardless of the colour of the character's skin, the fact that poc voice actors aren't getting enough of all the roles is a major problem, and the matter with loads of games. Trying to force studios to diversify by giving poc characters to poc voice actors would force studios to give poc roles which then gives them experience and helps them find more work but I would worry it would make them typecast and it's not a particularly large job base due to the lack of poc characters anyway. Could be a useful first step, I guess? If it was actually a meritocracy, it wouldn't be need cus then poc voice actors would be geeting more of all the roles but that's just not happening at the moment.
 

Urban Scholar

Member
Oct 30, 2017
5,603
Florida
So as I'm reading, were likely to have this problem regularly and it not be looked as a problem. Great

And as a Black person that likes to find more People of color voice talent to follow, I may just find another non marginalized actor...great.

I also like how the assertion is yeah this sucks, but it is what it is. And like most things involving representation I sound like I'm complaining.

So, I guess we'll all be saying and doing the same thing next game that'll do this. Cool cool
 

Gestault

Member
Oct 26, 2017
13,356
When the result of your hiring process is to end up with an all-white cast for a range of non-white characters, that's anything but ideal. I do appreciate that the studio's response tries to be transparent about the process, and recognizes the issue of how they communicated/promoted that not-ideal result.
 
Thread from casting director on how this happened
OP
OP
GSR

GSR

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,660
A full thread from the casting director on how things went down:



I really appreciate the transparency here and appreciate that she's owning up to how they put the focus on the wrong thing.
 
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giapel

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,592
When the result of your hiring process is to end up with an all-white cast for a range of non-white characters, that's anything but ideal. I do appreciate that the studio's response tries to be transparent about the process, and recognizes the issue of how they communicated/promoted that not-ideal result.
I think we're getting somewhere with the discussion. It's absolutely the employer's duty to be aware of the demographic makeup of who they employ and actively try to promote and diversity, support minority applicants and address inequalities like this one.
I still don't agree that a certain ethnicity character should always be voiced by an actor of that ethnicity.
 

Kreed

The Negro Historian
Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,102
Posters need to stop using the likes of Phil Lamar and Kratos' voice actors as examples like they are the norm vs the (rare) exceptions. All these examples do is just further illustrate the problem in regards to lack of roles overall and recognition for non White Voice Actors, in addition to how uncommon it is for "the reverse" of the situation in the OP to happen to even be used as examples.
 

LossAversion

The Merchant of ERA
Member
Oct 28, 2017
10,659
So as I'm reading, were likely to have this problem regularly and it not be looked as a problem. Great

And as a Black person that likes to find more People of color voice talent to follow, I may just find another non marginalized actor...great.

I also like how the assertion is yeah this sucks, but it is what it is. And like most things involving representation I sound like I'm complaining.

So, I guess we'll all be saying and doing the same thing next game that'll do this. Cool cool
I can't believe how much "it is what it is" is being dropped in here
I think a lot of it is just the fact that voice acting isn't exactly a high priority for indie projects a majority of the time. You'd be surprised how many projects offer "exposure" as compensation for your work. Oftentimes, it's simply about finding the cheapest actors with the best mic quality and that's about it. Another thing is that many of these creators want to include PoC characters in their projects but they aren't actually interested in any sort of authenticity in their portrayal. They might look at it as an attempt at being inclusive but... yeah.
 

Slayven

Never read a comic in his life
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
93,024
Posters need to stop using the likes of Phil Lamar and Kratos' voice actors as examples like they are the norm vs the (rare) exceptions. All these examples do is just further illustrate the problem in regards to lack of roles overall and recognition for non White Voice Actors, in addition to how uncommon it is for "the reverse" of the situation in the OP to happen to even be used as examples.
It's the Obama is president, racism is over defense
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,649
I think a lot of it is just the fact that voice acting isn't exactly a high priority for indie projects a majority of the time. You'd be surprised how many projects offer "exposure" as compensation for your work. Oftentimes, it's simply about finding the cheapest actors with the best mic quality and that's about it. Another thing is that many of these creators want to include PoC characters in their projects but they aren't actually interested in any sort of authenticity in their portrayal. They might look at it as an attempt at being inclusive but... yeah.
It's just this lax what's the big deal adatude while at the same time knowing it's a problem. It vexes me to no end
 

WinFonda

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,428
USA
Why the fuck would you blindly pick the VA using only audio files? Is that common in the industry?


It's not common 'in industry' but for indie devs using twitter VAs and casting intermediaries, it is. It's not as big a talent pool as you might think, it's also incredibly clique-y like the big boy industry; therefore casting selection is also not completely blind. The casting director mostly definitely knew who and what they were getting. That doesn't make this acceptable, however.
 

Unicorn

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 29, 2017
9,527
Why? Kratos was epic and nobody had any problem with his voice. Sometimes you just need to find an appropriate voice for what you want.
for all intents and purposes Kratos is white. That's the distinction here. The largest demo that would 'relate' to Kratos are white dudes.
 

LossAversion

The Merchant of ERA
Member
Oct 28, 2017
10,659
It's just this lax what's the big deal adatude while at the same time knowing it's a problem. It vexes me to no end
Honestly, this is a really hard topic for me to talk about objectively. I love voice acting and I've always thought that any actor should be able to portray any character because that was the beauty of voice acting in particular. At the same time... I think creators should be able to seek authenticity from the actors that portray their characters and I understand the disappointment from people when that attempt isn't even made at all. Especially because it doesn't happen very often.
 

Skittles

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,257
A full thread from the casting director on how things went down:



I really appreciate the transparency here and appreciate that she's owning up to how they put the focus on the wrong thing.

It's amazing how she's trying to pass the buck here as the casting director. Like, this is your fault entirely.




cGAETO5.png

*breaths in*
CsBlt5M.png


So this the type of people chucklefish be hiring
 

Deleted member 41638

User requested account closure
Banned
Apr 3, 2018
1,164
Why the fuck would you blindly pick the VA using only audio files? Is that common in the industry?



Because they are casting a voice, not a face. You want to choose the voice that best fits the character, it's totally possible that you have an actor that doesn't match the look of the character they are auditioning for but they can emulate a really good accent. This video from the voice actress for Sombra from Overwatch kinda highlights what I'm trying to say.



And a major thing is time and money, the Wargroove devs paid an outside company to do the auditioning and they probably didn't have the funding to say "hey, take as much time as you need to find actors with the same skin color as the characters they will be playing".
 

Ragnorok64

Banned
Nov 6, 2017
2,955
Wow, I thought a game like Wargroove would always be in ERA's good graces. Was surprised to see it getting dragged.
 

jeelybeans

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,948
Not the way I've done it in the past. I'd put out a character description with whatever concept art and personality quirks we were aiming for along with a sample script.

I don't even know how you'd put out a request for PoC only, or what the legality is around that.

Not to say you are doing it wrong or anything, you know better than I do, but I do some volunteer work in the Asian American film space, and we frequently get casting calls/calls for artists/ etc that specifically say "looking for an Asian American male..." "looking to hire POC artists", etc - so it can't be absolutely illegal.
 

FenninRo

alt account
Banned
Nov 13, 2019
84
If you have created PoC characters, wouldn't you send out a casting call for PoC voice actors? Otherwise why bother creating PoC characters to then whitewash them.

Because they're a bunch of opportunistic white people who want to look like they are good and progressive, but not actually do anything to help or elevate POC.

Worthless ass non-apology, but what do you expect from a group of white people? Their promises to do better have meant nothing for centuries.
 
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