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Warhammer 40,000 |OT| In the Grim Darkness of the 40K Era There Is Only War

Oct 27, 2017
385
With Warhammer fest this weekend are they likely to reveal a lot of stuff? What are the chances of an Emperors Children Codex to go with the Slaanesh revamp?
 

Dragon's Game

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Apr 1, 2019
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by the way ShadowSwordmaster, i been doing some thinking and I think the GOAT regular astartes in imperial history has to be Sigismund, by far the greatest swordsman. Always wondered how he would do against Lucius

"Sigismund’s artistry with a sword is best summed up by the way he moved. Duellists will parry and deflect to keep themselves alive if they have the skill to do so, and if they lack that skill – or simply rely on strength to win battles – then they will lay into a fight with a longer, two-handed blade, trusting in its weight and power to overcome an enemy’s defences. Sigismund did neither of these. I never saw him simply parry a blow, for every move he made blended defence into attack. He somehow deflected Abaddon’s strikes as an after-effect of making his own attacks. Even Telemachon, who is possibly the most gifted bladesman I have ever seen, will parry his opponent’s blows. He does it with an effortlessness that borders on inattention, something practically beneath him that he performs on instinct, but he still does it. Sigismund attacked, attacked, attacked, and he somehow deflected every blow while doing so. Aggression boiled beneath his every motion. "
 

Redcrayon

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Oct 27, 2017
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Seems plausible. From the novels, some chapters use Deathwatch to round out the abilities of command staff, or, perhaps more cynically if they have a lot of highly capable officer candidates but not enough openings for promotion, they can be detached to the Deathwatch and the issue put off for a few decades. It’s high risk but I suppose not without potential rewards. Ultimately they have to send personnel if requested (unless specific individuals have somehow gained the attention of those pulling the strings), how they interpret that is up to them.
 

Dragon's Game

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We might see this in the Siege of Terra, but I doubt it.
I would go even far as to say that Sigismund is the single greatest warrior that the Imperium has ever seen, excluding the Primarchs and the Emperor.He was respected so much that even Abaddon sent back Siggy's body with his sword to Terra
 
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Oct 26, 2017
976
Abbadon better pray that Dante doesn't get a primaris upgrade. Blood Angels are terrifying enough without the black rage- it's basically their super saiyan mode.

Horus vs Sanguinius 2.0 - Electric Boogaloo.
 
Mar 18, 2018
4,041
Abbadon better pray that Dante doesn't get a primaris upgrade. Blood Angels are terrifying enough without the black rage- it's basically their super saiyan mode.

Horus vs Sanguinius 2.0 - Electric Boogaloo.
In Devestation of Baal (spoilers but it's a really good book and you should read it):

Dante is pro-Primaris as he sees them as a cure for the rage. But they don't know for sure.

But Dante is also getting old and wants to be allowed to die or at least retire, but knows he can't because no one else is good enough to take his place.
 

Redcrayon

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Oct 27, 2017
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why do people say that the Dark Angels might be heretics, what is this madness about?
Lots of the more interesting chapters have stuff that makes them of interest to the Ordo Hereticus, it helps round out hyper-competent space-Knight armies if they’ve got a few skeletons in the cupboard (or lost in time and space in the case of the Lion’s progeny). Hardliner Ecclesiarchy types might also suggest that Astartes not believing in the divinity of the Emperor is questionable at best (although good luck saying that to them, and particularly the Custodes or Robbie). :D

Generally the Dark Angels are a loyalist chapter, but will always put their hunt for the Fallen and the perceived need to keep it secret first if the two conflict. This means they’ve silenced or abandoned Imperial forces, as they are in so deep in their moral ‘sunk cost fallacy’ that they can’t see a way out. Something I find works quite nicely with El’Johnson's animalistic youth as this wild predator lost in Caliban’s primordial forest. Hunt or be hunted, kill or be killed, all or nothing, etc.

The inter-factional rivalry of Imperial forces is makes it so interesting as a setting to me- half the forces you can field are Imperial ones and most of them need little excuse to scream ‘die heretic!’ at each other.
 
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Redcrayon

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Oct 27, 2017
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In Devestation of Baal (spoilers but it's a really good book and you should read it):

Dante is pro-Primaris as he sees them as a cure for the rage. But they don't know for sure.

But Dante is also getting old and wants to be allowed to die or at least retire, but knows he can't because no one else is good enough to take his place.
I’ve just ordered Dante and Devastation of Baal in my quest to get up to date on the modern 40k lore.
 

Dragon's Game

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In Devestation of Baal (spoilers but it's a really good book and you should read it):

Dante is pro-Primaris as he sees them as a cure for the rage. But they don't know for sure.

But Dante is also getting old and wants to be allowed to die or at least retire, but knows he can't because no one else is good enough to take his place.
but now that Roboute named Dante lord regent over Imperium Nihilus, shouldn't it be time he step down as chapter master of BA
 
Mar 18, 2018
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but now that Roboute named Dante lord regent over Imperium Nihilus, shouldn't it be time he step down as chapter master of BA
Maybe, but there's not much of a chapter left anyway. All the Blood Angels and Successors chapters were on Baal and only a few hundred marines were left by the end (starting out with 30,000 at the start).

The future of the chapter is left open for now but it's implied that all future Blood Angels will all be Primaris quickly made out of the surviving milita. And that the Flesh Terror Chapter Master Seth isn't happy about it.
 
Oct 29, 2017
345
Holy Terra
now speaking about the BA...is it true that their red thirst and black rage is similar to the World Eater's Butcher's Nails?
Not as I read it. I suppose they lose their mind and go rage crazy, but in the BA case it is from reliving the death of their primarch in VIVID detail. The Butchers Nails cause constant horrible pain unless you are fucking shit up.
 

Dragon's Game

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Lots of the more interesting chapters have stuff that makes them of interest to the Ordo Hereticus, it helps round out hyper-competent space-Knight armies if they’ve got a few skeletons in the cupboard (or lost in time and space in the case of the Lion’s progeny). Hardliner Ecclesiarchy types might also suggest that Astartes not believing in the divinity of the Emperor is questionable at best (although good luck saying that to them, and particularly the Custodes or Robbie). :D

Generally the Dark Angels are a loyalist chapter, but will always put their hunt for the Fallen and the perceived need to keep it secret first if the two conflict. This means they’ve silenced or abandoned Imperial forces, as they are in so deep in their moral ‘sunk cost fallacy’ that they can’t see a way out. Something I find works quite nicely with El’Johnson's animalistic youth as this wild predator lost in Caliban’s primordial forest. Hunt or be hunted, kill or be killed, all or nothing, etc.

The inter-factional rivalry of Imperial forces is makes it so interesting as a setting to me- half the forces you can field are Imperial ones and most of them need little excuse to scream ‘die heretic!’ at each other.
Why keep the Fallen a secret though? that has always been my question

every legion, even loyalist legions during the Heresy had traitors. Why do the DA go to such lengths to hide the secret of The Fallen from the Imperium?
 

ShadowSwordmaster

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Oct 25, 2017
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Why keep the Fallen a secret though? that has always been my question

every legion, even loyalist legions during the Heresy had traitors. Why do the DA go to such lengths to hide the secret of The Fallen from the Imperium?
Because half of the legion fell and that the Lion is very much a secretive person who rather not let people know about certain stuff.
 
Oct 26, 2017
976
In Devestation of Baal (spoilers but it's a really good book and you should read it):

Dante is pro-Primaris as he sees them as a cure for the rage. But they don't know for sure.

But Dante is also getting old and wants to be allowed to die or at least retire, but knows he can't because no one else is good enough to take his place.
I have actually read/listened to the book and I loved every minute of it. Dante wants to die but the universe won't let him. There's also that pesky prophecy/ vision he keeps having.
 

Dragon's Game

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like the White Scars also had a significant amount of traitors but you don't see them whining about it or feeling self guilt about it constantly like the Dark Angels
 

Redcrayon

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Oct 27, 2017
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like the White Scars also had a significant amount of traitors but you don't see them whining about it or feeling self guilt about it constantly like the Dark Angels
I think it starts with pride and shock, in that the legion numbered 001, with a history of campaign success unbeaten by any except Horus returns home to find their brothers have turned, the battle costing them their home, their foundation myth, their sense of security, superiority and even their Primarch, the one guy that saw the final moments happen being an unreliable narrator (or is he? Of course he is! Or is he?).

The Heresy wasn’t just Marine Legions, although they make up the central forces due to the Primarchs putting a face on the armies and having a personal connection. Stacks of worlds, support formations, Titan Legions etc turned too. Reprisals following the final battle would have been brutal, overwhelming, swift and horrific. I don’t blame the surviving Dark Angel commanders, told to split their strength according to the Codex Astartes, feeling a touch paranoid and going ‘yeah, maybe now isn’t the time to talk about exactly what happened, let’s just say ‘a bigger boy did it (chaos wizards) and ran away’. I suspect the surviving loyal Primarchs and fledgling Inquisition started asking a few questions, and, if they suspected anything, thought little of it, something that’s been borne out by 10,000 years of DA actions since.

On the DA side, that time has been spent indoctrinating every recruit with stories of ‘And what do we do to turncoats?’ and ‘how do you regain honour if a (cough) ally turned on you out of the blue?’, long before they know anything more than anyone else does. By the time that recruit joins the inner circle, they are primed to continue the deception, and by the time they are of high enough rank to go beyond that, centuries of psycho-conditioning have done the job.

This made me smile while reading the Deathwatch book, where they have their librarians put a lock on recruits investigating each other’s secrets. Anyone want to bet on whether the Unforgiven have detached anyone from their inner circles to go hang out with Inquisitors and powerful librarians from other chapters? I can just imagine them in the 32nd millennium, going ‘for the Lion’s (our) sake, don’t send them anyone who knows anything!’ :D
 

Dragon's Game

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I think it starts with pride and shock, in that the legion numbered 001, with a history of campaign success unbeaten by any except Horus returns home to find their brothers have turned, the battle costing them their home, their foundation myth, their sense of security, superiority and even their Primarch, the one guy that saw the final moments happen being an unreliable narrator (or is he? Of course he is! Or is he?).

The Heresy wasn’t just Marine Legions, although they make up the central forces due to the Primarchs putting a face on the armies and having a personal connection. Stacks of worlds, support formations, Titan Legions etc turned too. Reprisals following the final battle would have been brutal, overwhelming, swift and horrific. I don’t blame the surviving Dark Angel commanders, told to split their strength according to the Codex Astartes, feeling a touch paranoid and going ‘yeah, maybe now isn’t the time to talk about exactly what happened, let’s just say ‘a bigger boy did it (chaos wizards) and ran away’. I suspect the surviving loyal Primarchs and fledgling Inquisition started asking a few questions, and, if they suspected anything, thought little of it, something that’s been borne out by 10,000 years of DA actions since.

On the DA side, that time has been spent indoctrinating every recruit with stories of ‘And what do we do to turncoats?’ and ‘how do you regain honour if a (cough) ally turned on you out of the blue?’, long before they know anything more than anyone else does. By the time that recruit joins the inner circle, they are primed to continue the deception, and by the time they are of high enough rank to go beyond that, centuries of psycho-conditioning have done the job.

This made me smile while reading the Deathwatch book, where they have their librarians put a lock on recruits investigating each other’s secrets. Anyone want to bet on whether the Unforgiven have detached anyone from their inner circles to go hang out with Inquisitors and powerful librarians from other chapters? I can just imagine them in the 32nd millennium, going ‘for the Lion’s (our) sake, don’t send them anyone who knows anything!’ :D
Dang, I didn't know the DA was that successful I would of thought it would be the Ultramarines knowing Roboute's genius

Is the Lion a greater military mind than even Roboute?
 

Redcrayon

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Oct 27, 2017
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Dang, I didn't know the DA was that successful I would of thought it would be the Ultramarines knowing Roboute's genius

Is the Lion a greater military mind than even Roboute?
There’s a lot of overlap in the Primarch’s abilities by design- just as both Dorn and Perturabo are excellent at siegecraft, the Lion is up there with Roboute in terms of strategy and might be even higher. However, it’s a very cold form of strategy focused solely on martial victory, a ‘the ends justifies the means’ kind. Where Roboute always has an eye on rebuilding afterwards as a gifted diplomat and administrator, the Lion isn’t much for empire-building and social skills, which are his weakness and why he didn’t see Luthor’s feelings of being slighted or turning coming. He’s a great swordsman though, like many of them. Essentially, if you want to knock out a civilisation declared heretic’s military and move on to the next target, that’s the Lion’s main skillset, he’ll get it done quickly with as few losses as possible for the optimum result. Unless your optimum result is ‘we want to repopulate it afterwards and have the new population think well of us as they farm in the fields we fought in, setting up slow and steady expansion and recruits in future’, at which point he was not the great choice.

One’s real passion is statecraft and being a military genius is secondary, the other’s passion is victory and has zero interest in statecraft or diplomacy at all. In the middle of a massive campaign, The Lion is more immediately effective but in terms of the Imperium being better off as a whole in the following centuries, that’s Roboute’s gift.
 
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Oct 26, 2017
976
Dang, I didn't know the DA was that successful I would of thought it would be the Ultramarines knowing Roboute's genius

Is the Lion a greater military mind than even Roboute?
Lion is more...on the fly than Guilliman I would say. He can think in the moment and doesn't have to come up with a thousand plans beforehand. He actually is probably on par with Horus tactically but he doesn't understand people.
 

Dragon's Game

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by the way have I talked about how much of a badass SIgismund is?

If i did, well I'm going to say it again :)



seriously though, There's a reason there's an argument to call him the single greatest space marine to ever live. Not only was he probably the single greatest combatant in the entire history of the Astartes (pre-heresy, post-heresy) although Dante might come close

-He was such an important figure in Phall and the 2nd black crusade

-Black legion describes him as the "the finest duellist ever to wear ceramite" and "at his best he would have rivalled any being that drew breath."

-Sanguinius even says that he wasn't the "Son of Dorn" but the "Son of Death"

- Was the first "Emperor's Champion"

-he whooped Jubal Khan of the white scars Jubal couldn’t even register that he was hit until his helmet was dented.

I have a theory that he is the one that kills Knarn during the Siege of Terra that ShadowSwordmaster has been hinting at

sorry for my fanboyism at the moment, i just love this character

 
Oct 31, 2017
2,431
by the way have I talked about how much of a badass SIgismund is?

If i did, well I'm going to say it again :)



seriously though, There's a reason there's an argument to call him the single greatest space marine to ever live. Not only was he probably the single greatest combatant in the entire history of the Astartes (pre-heresy, post-heresy) although Dante might come close

-He was such an important figure in Phall and the 2nd black crusade

-Black legion describes him as the "the finest duellist ever to wear ceramite" and "at his best he would have rivalled any being that drew breath."

-Sanguinius even says that he wasn't the "Son of Dorn" but the "Son of Death"

- Was the first "Emperor's Champion"

-he whooped Jubal Khan of the white scars Jubal couldn’t even register that he was hit until his helmet was dented.

I have a theory that he is the one that kills Knarn during the Siege of Terra that ShadowSwordmaster has been hinting at

sorry for my fanboyism at the moment, i just love this character

Cool cool. I'm personally not a natural fan of the sons of Dorn, but this is one of my favourite illustrationsof in all of 40k

 
Oct 26, 2017
325
This is how we discover that space marine armor has pretty basic design floors like not being able to sit down properly, bend over or reach across their shoulders or something.
That would explain a lot. I used to play the Deathwatch RP and the pre-errata fall damage was calculated so high it was very easy for your Space Marines to fall down a short staircase and just die on impact. Poor guys literally can't lift their arms up to protect themselves from the fall.
 
Mar 18, 2018
4,041
That would explain a lot. I used to play the Deathwatch RP and the pre-errata fall damage was calculated so high it was very easy for your Space Marines to fall down a short staircase and just die on impact. Poor guys literally can't lift their arms up to protect themselves from the fall.
The biggest threat to a Space Marine is probbaly no weapon but something like wooden floorboards. They must weigh like a ton, they wouldn't be able to walk up stairs without breaking through the first step.
 

ShadowSwordmaster

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Oct 25, 2017
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It is said in various novels and stories that a Space Marine without a power generator on his power armor is essentially dead weight. A Space Marine could move around, but it would be hard since it's heavy.