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Warren Refuses to Shake Bernie’s Hand After Debate, Bernie Throws Up Hands After They Speak

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Ichthyosaurus

Banned
Dec 26, 2018
9,375
What history are you refering to? Up until this point, Warren has aligned a lot with Sanders on certain policies, even if in details there are more differences than is often apparent. Also, why talk about this now? It smells like desperation, which is understandable, but ain't going to gain her any votes. As far as I am aware Sanders has a good record of supporting women's rights, female candidates to congress, etc...

It isn't a trainwreck and this is the problem. It is a squabble, and an embarrasing one. The trainwreck is the media hype and some of the public reaction that surrounds this shit. It is like there is a lack of willingness to filter between important and trivial shit. I mean the fact that this was brought up by the chair and not a bunch of other policy related stuff is the issue.
From 2016. Warren's camp, not Warren herself, didn't trust him because of this, it's painfully obvious.

We're not talking about one event, several lead to this. Every interaction between Bernie, Warren and their campaigns over the last few days stemming from the script Bernie's camp had escalated this conflict far beyond what it had to be. I worry this won't be the end of it in the primaries. It was never just an awkward conversation between two candidates in '18, that's just the biggest obstacle at the moment.

The media hype is making this a train wreck, but they wouldn't have gotten the chance to achieve this had the minor scuffles been adequately addressed earlier. I blame a lot of this on Bernie being tone deaf reacting to Warren, he has no idea how to de-escalate or understand her.
 
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Snowy

Member
Nov 11, 2017
1,139
I’m not talking about a brokered convention. If Biden is leading in delegates at the convention he will simply win, as you say. But early wins don’t matter in the scenario you describe. Iowa and N.H. simply don’t have enough delegates. Winning at this point requires surviving the entire primary season and coming into the convention with a delegate lead. I don’t think either Bernie or Warren can do that without the other one explicitly working hard to make it happen. That’s the reason for the long primary truce.
They matter in the sense that they arguably break Biden’s electability/inevitability narrative, especially if someone could parlay a win in the first two states into an upset in Nevada and a win in Super Tuesday’s biggest prize, California (where Bernie will definitely kick ass if he wins 3/4 of the first four contests, considering how well he’s polling there).

I don’t really agree Bernie and Warren really need each other for this, either. They both have massive grassroots campaigns and good fundraising apparatuses. They collectively have enough voters to best Biden, and they are the largest recipient of each others’ voters if one of them drops out.
 

mutantmagnet

Member
Oct 28, 2017
9,221
I imagine Warren was annoyed because Bernie campaign's response to the story was to call her a liar, instead of actually addressing anything about the conversation. It'd be easy to leverage that as highlighting the unique struggles a female candidate would face.

Instead, they branded her team liars and snakes.
What is there to address? You do realize even when Warren was questioned point blank she said she disagreed with Bernie?

That was an ambiguous phrase.

She herself didn't want to get into the specifics about what exactly Bernie said so he had nothing specific to respond to from her.

Meanwhile a bunch of news outlets said specifically that he said she can't win because she is a woman and he had no problem directly answering that specific claim even though it didn't come from her.
 
Oct 25, 2017
5,945
just so we’re clear this wasn’t unique to Bernie much as the stans want it to be.
Does it have to be unique for it to be an issue? There were plenty more for Sanders - 10 or so. 2 or 3 for others. Biden was somehow spared completely despite being the front runner. I guess pointing this out makes me a stan while you fighting a narrative with your own makes you a truth seeker so my humble apologies in advance!
 

mutantmagnet

Member
Oct 28, 2017
9,221
They matter in the sense that they arguably break Biden’s electability/inevitability narrative, especially if someone could parlay a win in the first two states into an upset in Nevada and a win in Super Tuesday’s biggest prize, California (where Bernie will definitely kick ass if he wins 3/4 of the first four contests, considering how well he’s polling there).

I don’t really agree Bernie and Warren really need each other for this, either. They both have massive grassroots campaigns and good fundraising apparatuses. They collectively have enough voters to best Biden, and they are the largest recipient of each others’ voters if one of them drops out.

This is not true if polling is to believe. For months polls indicate Warren voters favor Biden as 2nd choice. While Sanders voters prefer Warren as 2nd choice. To make this shit show complete, Biden supporters have Sanders as their 2nd vote. It's the weirdest representation of rock paper scissors imaginable.
 

Crushed

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,402
I imagine Warren was annoyed because Bernie campaign's response to the story was to call her a liar, instead of actually addressing anything about the conversation.
This is the exact opposite of reality. Bernie's response was to address what he actually said (that Trump is a bigot who leverages bigotry in attacks), deny that he ever said a woman can't win, and stated that the "liar" wasn't Warren but people who weren't in the room and were misrepresenting what they heard secondhand. There was also more specific detail about the conversation itself from the Bernie camp (that Warren herself brought up the question to Bernie).

Warren afterward flatly said that he did it (while being extremely vague about what the conversation actually was and who said what) effectively calling Bernie a liar, and then told everyone to drop it.
 

Inuhanyou

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,765
New Jersey
just so we’re clear this wasn’t unique to Bernie much as the stans want it to be.
some of the warren questions in your own post illustrate the point that your missing which is illustrated by the post you mentioned also having a warren quote. Most of the questions tonight were right wing framed. Difficult questions isnt the same as throwing right wing propaganda at the candidates

You turned it into fanboy war about sanders when the tweet is about cnn...being a corporate news channel geared towards neoliberal attitudes.

On the face of it putting a question as a fact like "m4a will bankrupt america" is transparent
 
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nelsonroyale

Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,724
From 2016. Warren's camp, not Warren herself, didn't trust him because of this, it's painfully obvious.

We're not talking about one event, several lead to this. Every interaction between Bernie, Warren and their campaigns over the last few days stemming from the script Bernie's camp had escalated this conflict far beyond what it had to be. I worry this won't be the end of it in the primaries. It was never just an awkward conversation between two candidates in '18, that's just the biggest obstacle at the moment.

The media hype is making this a train wreck, but they wouldn't have gotten the chance to achieve this had the minor scuffles been adequately addressed earlier. I blame a lot of this on Bernie being tone deaf reacting to Warren, he has no idea how to de-escalate or understand her.
Can you provide evidence for this history? And also, why did Warren bring this up at this time rather than any other? Better to look at this through the lens of strategy, above all else.

Also, why does this interaction mainly boil down to a male versus female thing? How does Warren become the representative of women. I would argue that Sander's campaign has many endorsement's from progressive and inspiring female politicians, coupled with his record on women's rights...and again, this is a non issue. It is about record, not private and unverifiable hearsay. I mean people almost claim that Warren is an evidence-based politician, and also she has a background in law...This isn't a good luck. And again, is small chips...in a world where the US just almost went to war. Need to focus on policy and records, rather than this kind of stuff. People love their drama and soap operas though I suppose.
 

Ichthyosaurus

Banned
Dec 26, 2018
9,375
Can you provide evidence for this history? And also, why did Warren bring this up at this time rather than any other? Better to look at this through the lens of strategy, above all else.
I don't get this revisionist history that Bernie's been totally fine with the party since '16, as though a major event didn't occur which broke a lot of trust with millions of people in the party and is still in need of healing. That the context that matters here is an argument in '18 and now and absolutely nothing affected anyone else relating to those two candidates before and in-between.

My guess is that was bought up as a counter attack to Bernie's script, which broke their truce. However, we have no confirmation did that herself. Bernie's script is what gets all this rolling in '20.

Also, why does this interaction mainly boil down to a male versus female thing? How does Warren become the representative of women. I would argue that Sander's campaign has many endorsement's from progressive and inspiring female politicians, coupled with his record on women's rights...and again, this is a non issue. It is about record, not private and unverifiable hearsay. I mean people almost claim that Warren is an evidence-based politician, and also she has a background in law...This isn't a good luck. And again, is small chips...in a world where the US just almost went to war. Need to focus on policy and records, rather than this kind of stuff. People love their drama and soap operas though I suppose.
Because they're a man and a woman, arguing over how far a woman can go in society. She's not only doing that, they both are representing themselves - she's the woman who she thinks will beat Trump and Bernie is the man who thinks he's able to accomplish that. It is definitely an issue as I showed upthread, Bernie has struggles with women in his history.



You can't just shrug that off like it didn't happen. The story doesn't end with those endorsements. It's a non-issue for you, it's not for Warren and other people, this is why Bernie is getting heat right now. He didn't take those opinions into consideration. No, it's not just "record" we're discussing a person here and he's not as squeaky clean as you're framing him as on these issues.

How is this a bad look for Warren? Why?

Indeed it is a minor hiccup compared to what's going on, so what? It's major news to both their campaigns right now and might prove to a barrier to their continued friendship.

Why are you comparing this to "drama and soap operas"? It's an incredibly dismissive complaint about women in politics, what Bernie is being accused of. That, my friend, is not a good look.
 
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May

The Fallen
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
738
You'd think people would work together to get rid of the orange menace in power instead of quarreling among themselves like that
 

Sunster

The Fallen
Oct 5, 2018
3,938
You'd think people would work together to get rid of the orange menace in power instead of quarreling among themselves like that
people arguing in bad faith are fanning flames. In this very thread it's happening. My advice, don't engage and stay focused on things that actually matter in these debates and the election at large.

edit: misread your post. you were talking about the candidates themselves lol. well, my advice still stands.
 

vodalus

Member
Oct 27, 2017
430
Los Angeles
warren needs to drop out asap
She and Bernie are at the top together in some early polls. Why would she possibly drop out lol

To all the people thread-whining about how there are more important things in the world: elections are meant to be tests of individuals, including stress tests. We're supposed to look at how candidates handle small disagreements and extrapolate from them. It's a very important part of evaluating their ability to handle a difficult job.
 
Jan 2, 2018
1,380
Bernie is not going to fix all that. No president can, congress is where those issues must be focused on.



As an outsider you're missing the context for why the Democrats are doing this. The Democrats didn't create the system, they exist within it and everything is tilted to the right not only from the Founders in its structure but the GOP slowly subverting and making it worse year after year. Dems can't make much progress because they get 4 to 8 years repairing the damage the GOP did then the GOP get elected and the cycle started anew. The ones who want to break the system don't leave so much as a scratch on it.
Did you forget 2016? DNC did everything in it's power not to let Bernie win. The one who pleaded for REAL change. Therefor the DNC is also a threat. I have hope with the new generation. until then, I completely understand people saying it's the same shit.

Change the electoral system first. Make sure that new parties can have a chance simply by gaining enough votes.

Democrats SHOULD absolutely work for your vote.
 

Ichthyosaurus

Banned
Dec 26, 2018
9,375
Did you forget 2016? DNC did everything in it's power not to let Bernie win. The one who pleaded for REAL change. Therefor the DNC is also a threat. I have hope with the new generation. until then, I completely understand people saying it's the same shit.

Change the electoral system first. Make sure that new parties can have a chance simply by gaining enough votes.

Democrats SHOULD absolutely work for your vote.
The DNC didn't do anything to Bernie.

Bernie won't be able to change the electoral system, and it does need major adjustments, by being president - that requires congress. What new parties? The Greens and the Libertarians? You think they'll do any better when they can't organise a Wendy's properly?

They do.
 

mAcOdIn

Member
Oct 27, 2017
788
You can't just shrug that off like it didn't happen. The story doesn't end with those endorsements. It's a non-issue for you, it's not for Warren and other people, this is why Bernie is getting heat right now. He didn't take those opinions into consideration. No, it's not just "record" we're discussing a person here and he's not as squeaky clean as you're framing him as on these issues.
I'm not sure how to word this but this is kinda my only real gripe with Bernie and more so with a lot of his more ardent supporters. Bernie comes at literally everything from this weird cut and dry "this stems from this, this stems from this, we do this and everything's solved" type scenario and then everyone else is stupid and wrong foor not buying it. I felt the same type of thing when trying to argue that, no, our entire foreign policy is not straight up because of defense contractors and that solving that would not all of a sudden turn us into Switzerland or some shit.

By all means I think Bernie's policies are the best, and for sure Medicare for All would more or less do what Planned Parenthood always wished for and possible render the whole organization moot, assuming one of the compromises to get it passed in that hypothetical scenario wasn't no federal funds going towards abortions or some shit, but this idea that simply implementing his policies is the end game for all of these organizations and people working in them and they're all wrong for not having to think pragmatically or make their own choices until this future comes about is really annoying to me. It was the same with that Working Families Union endorsement he lost to Warren this election, all the left wingers are saying they voted themselves into irrelevance over a primary endorsement, it's fucking stupid.

Most likely, had Bernie won in 2016, or if Bernie or Warren win in 2020 the vast majority of their policies aren't going to get implemented. I of course think they should try and we should try and create a situation on the ground that'd allow it to happen but all signs point to not happening. So in that environment, if you were planned parenthood for example, having a woman in the Presidency would be a bigger win for your policy positions than an old guy who'd also support your shit but isn't an icon you can hold up to other women, and, being honest here do people really expect Bernie to fight as hard for Planned Parenthood as a woman would?

I'm not trying to say he's not sexist or is sexist. I don't know. I definitely don't put it past a man to be sexist so I wouldn't be surprised if he was. But I think his failings in this regard appear to have more to do with just being so 2 dimensional. Which I find a strength but only because I don't deify any of these people and I don't take any of this personally in the sense that I don't care who endorses who and am actually fine with everyone going out in their own directions making their own choices before an election in how they best see fit. I respect that. The people who drink the far Leftist koolaid seemingly don't.


Edit:
Also I think for all the talk about the DNC screwing Bernie over the thing I find most hilarious about all of that is that they let him in the debate in the first place! Switching parties just to get a national platform, I don't think the DNC had to respect that and let him in.
 

darz1

Member
Dec 18, 2017
2,400
No the clip makes it look like she is surprised Bernie would lie about that statement.
Thats not how it comes across to me at all. It looks like she is grinning about Bernie being asked about this topic then it looks like she is acting surprised at his response.

Why would she be surprised when he already very publicly denied that he ever said it? Do you think she hadn't seen his response yet and was genuinely surprised? That just doesn't make any sense.
 

ChippyTurtle

Member
Oct 13, 2018
1,166
Did you forget 2016? DNC did everything in it's power not to let Bernie win. The one who pleaded for REAL change. Therefor the DNC is also a threat. I have hope with the new generation. until then, I completely understand people saying it's the same shit.

Change the electoral system first. Make sure that new parties can have a chance simply by gaining enough votes.

Democrats SHOULD absolutely work for your vote.
The electoral system will never change if we don't push out Republicans as their entire lifestrength is to retain minority power. Dividing the party would only prevent us beating the Republicans.
 

BADMAN

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
2,356
I can already see the narrative if she wins the primary. Trump will insist that Warren screwed Bernie out of the nomination and beat that drum for the whole election, demoralizing an already bitter group of supporters. This sucks for a lot of reasons, but that one is going to hurt.

There was a very good chance that Warren getting the nomination would have resulted in a large majority of Sanders' grassroots movement transferring over to her, but now I just don't see it. That's a lot of potential canvassers and small donors that she's lost over this whole debacle. For what? To reboot her campaign at Sanders' expense? Shit's unreal.
 

Wordballoons

Member
Oct 30, 2017
41
I can already see the narrative if she wins the primary. Trump will insist that Warren screwed Bernie out of the nomination and beat that drum for the whole election, demoralizing an already bitter group of supporters. This sucks for a lot of reasons, but that one is going to hurt.

There was a very good chance that Warren getting the nomination would have resulted in a large majority of Sanders' grassroots movement transferring over to her, but now I just don't see it. That's a lot of potential canvassers and small donors that she's lost over this whole debacle. For what? To reboot her campaign at Sanders' expense? Shit's unreal.
Did you see how the questions were being framed? She’s in cahoots. We need a new party.
 

N. Tyranno

Member
Nov 6, 2017
2,586
You know, the idea that Warren would engineer this “leak” and lie about it to reinvigorate her campaign also has another problem with it; namely, the fact that women talking about issues of sexism almost always involve a great deal of backlash that typically backfired on said woman, and also that Warren, who has experienced sexual harassment, isn’t smart enough to realize that. it relies on ignorance of women’s issues, the outdated notion that it was all for attention, and for Warren herself to be ignorant of her own challenges and difficulties she’s faced.
 
Oct 27, 2017
2,112
Whatever Warren's campaign staff intended, I think this only hurts Bernie rather than helps her. She already lost whatever momentum she had earlier in the race.
 

PR_rambo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,826
Alright Democrats, I'm gonna sit this one out, and whoever wins, I will vote for them and pray whichever white person wins is capable of beating trump. Until then!
 

rras1994

Member
Nov 4, 2017
3,201
You know, the idea that Warren would engineer this “leak” and lie about it to reinvigorate her campaign also has another problem with it; namely, the fact that women talking about issues of sexism almost always involve a great deal of backlash that typically backfired on said woman, and also that Warren, who has experienced sexual harassment, isn’t smart enough to realize that. it relies on ignorance of women’s issues, the outdated notion that it was all for attention, and for Warren herself to be ignorant of her own challenges and difficulties she’s faced.
This. Which is why the “why didn’t she talk about it earlier?” questions are so shit, because if you bring sexism up, even if it’s a minor complaint, and especially if it’s against a well liked person, you are seen as a lying, manipulative, attention-seeking women. It does not work in your favour, it actually works against you.
 

jrush64

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,903
Jesus Christ!I just wake and see Never Warren is trending and its because she refused to shake Sanders hand? Some of the fucking comments there are just seriously concerning.. like a cult of personality thing.

You know, at this point im so exhausted of this primary. The viciousness of this campaign from some supporters is just demoralizing. At what point do we stop fighting and focus on the real enemy, aka the gop and trump?
 
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