Warren Refuses to Shake Bernie’s Hand After Debate, Bernie Throws Up Hands After They Speak

[mAcOdIn]

Russia helped Trump become president.

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I don't know how to quantify that. So did Comey. So did Hillary. Russia's going to be an antagonist for at least as long as Putin's around, we're stuck with the GOP forever though. All Russia can do is signal boost already existing sentiment in our populace. I'm not going to give them credit for all this chaos when it's legit nonsense that's been built up to by Fox for years.

Not voting for Bernie in the primary IS supporting Donald Trump. Because only he has the passionate and broad support to defeat Trump in the general.

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I hope this is a joke though. As much as I'd like to think Bernie has that support I've yet to see it reflected anywhere, I wouldn't take it as a given.

And I hate, HATE, seeing anyone saying a vote for someone else, in a primary no less, is a vote for Trump. That's just a ridiculous level of shaming.

 

[pigeon]

Better vote for Bernie so that doesn't happen, then!

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this argument doesn't work on the level of individual bernie-or-trump supporters, you need a coherent and large-sized bloc for bruenig's logic to work

 

[Deleted member 60096]

lol at first I had a completely different image of the term throwing up hands.

But this is pretty ridiculous that this is being treated like such a major issue. Bernie's answer to her question according to himself could understandably be taken as a disagreement, while still not being one so he of course he isn't gonna say he didn't say a women can't be president. And Warren is understandably going to not be super happy about that. Its just two old people bickering like an old married couple, can we focus on actually important shit?

 

[Mahonay]

I wish I could. But I am not American. All I want is for the piece of shit that is currently the president of the United States to no longer be president.

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It really just is that simple this election.

I have my ideal candidates (Warren or Bernie), but I will 1000 percent vote Biden to remove Trump and hopefully send his bitch ass to jail.

 

[MrGerbils]

on Iran: no she didn't. She would have maintained the treaty Obama managed to arrange with Iran
on rigging: the DNC isn't rigging anything
On Russia: one is country that is aggressively expanding into neighboring territory. The other is a party that has continuously progressed society when they were in power in the latter half of the 20th century through this early portion of the 21st century.

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On Iran, Hillary, "I want the Iranians to know that if I'm the president, we will attack Iran," (she clarifies with justification about hostility but you know what so did Trump)

https://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/01/world/africa/01iht-iran.4.12492135.html

On rigging, Harry Reid, ""I knew — everybody knew — that this was not a fair deal," he added."

https://thehill.com/blogs/ballot-box/presidential-races/289532-reid-dnc-never-gave-sanders-fair-deal

and on and on

 

[Snowy]

this is a very poor understanding of the primary situation, in which the best path for either of the two to win is for the other to drop out voluntarily and endorse them after an amicable primary between the two, a situation both of them have worked very hard all year to keep possible

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This would be true if Biden had collapsed, as many expected, but he didn't. He's still winning. That being the case, one of them needs to cannibalize the other NOW, or risk Biden running away with it before either gets in a position to amicably endorse the other one.

 

[TyraZaurus]

I didn't say she'd be trustworthy if she'd denied it, I said she would be acting on her stated desire for this not to be a thing we're all talking about and would have cost her absolutely nothing. That she chose to confirm it is itself evidence of the underlying motivation for it being a thing we're all talking about. Whether that motivation was a genuine attempt at a low blow or just petty inability to move on from some minor thing Bernie said, it at the very least smashes the facade of comity between the two, which was inevitable anyway.

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I wasn't talking about your post, I wasn't even aware of it.

But I have to say, I don't agree that she should have said nothing once the truth comes out. She absolutely should have set the record of her own account after the bandaid got ripped off, no matter who was the one who set it in motion.

That's leaving aside the issue if she lied. If she did, that's unfortunate, but ignoring it and saying nothing isn't the answer either. And Bernie doesn't have my confidence right now, personally.

 

[Mahonay]

Have you been around old people before? Sometimes they get fussy.

 

[mAcOdIn]

Have you been around old people before? Sometimes they get fussy.

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A lot of young people are getting pretty fussy about nonsense that they aren't even a part of or privy to right now in this very thread! It's not just an old person's problem.

 

[pigeon]

On Iran, Hillary, "I want the Iranians to know that if I'm the president, we will attack Iran," (she clarifies with justification about hostility but you know what so did Trump)

https://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/01/world/africa/01iht-iran.4.12492135.html

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the question Hillary was responding to was literally "what would you do if Iran nuked Israel" and I think this pretty much sums up the credence people should give any of your posts

 

[MrGerbils]

I don't know how to quantify that. So did Comey. So did Hillary. Russia's going to be an antagonist for at least as long as Putin's around, we're stuck with the GOP forever though. All Russia can do is signal boost already existing sentiment in our populace. I'm not going to give them credit for all this chaos when it's legit nonsense that's been built up to by Fox for years.
I hope this is a joke though. As much as I'd like to think Bernie has that support I've yet to see it reflected anywhere, I wouldn't take it as a given.

And I hate, HATE, seeing anyone saying a vote for someone else, in a primary no less, is a vote for Trump. That's just a ridiculous level of shaming.

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No it's not meant to be honest it's meant to reveal how it's certainly just as valid as what's being leveled against me. That unless I back Biden then I'm a Trump supporter.

The Democratic Part needs to back it's voters, not the other way around. If they don't, then they lose. They lost 2016 not from Jill Stein or some shit, but from folks who flipped from Obama to Trump.

 

[Ichthyosaurus]

I don't know how to quantify that. So did Comey. So did Hillary. Russia's going to be an antagonist for at least as long as Putin's around, we're stuck with the GOP forever though. All Russia can do is signal boost already existing sentiment in our populace. I'm not going to give them credit for all this chaos when it's legit nonsense that's been built up to by Fox for years.
I hope this is a joke though. As much as I'd like to think Bernie has that support I've yet to see it reflected anywhere, I wouldn't take it as a given.

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They were one among many reasons's he lost, and no she didn't lose because she was Hilary Clinton. America's had conflicts with Russia before Putin was born and likely will after he's gone. Part of foreign country's being able to tear down others from the inside is doing exactly that, its why America's been so successful aboard with that tactic. The quote "divide and conquer" was attributed to Julius Caesar.

And I hate, HATE, seeing anyone saying a vote for someone else, in a primary no less, is a vote for Trump. That's just a ridiculous level of shaming.

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*nods*

No it's not meant to be honest it's meant to reveal how it's certainly just as valid as what's being leveled against me. That unless I back Biden then I'm a Trump supporter.

The Democratic Part needs to back it's voters, not the other way around. If they don't, then they lose. They lost 2016 not from Jill Stein or some shit, but from folks who flipped from Obama to Trump.

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ERA is divided into two political camps in this primary: Bernie or Warren. Biden is loathed here.

 

[ZeoVGM]

Not voting for Bernie in the primary IS supporting Donald Trump. Because only he has the passionate and broad support to defeat Trump in the general.

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Stop with this complete and utter bullshit.

 

[Ausroachman]

Ordinarily i would say let them fight, but dammit we need one of these candidates to step up and defeat trump next election. I know very little about each candidate, who has the best chance of winning ?

 

[Deleted member 42055]

Seeing that just, honestly it just makes me sad. I hope they can bury the hatchet, I imagine they will.

 

[mugurumakensei]

On Iran, Hillary, "I want the Iranians to know that if I'm the president, we will attack Iran," (she clarifies with justification about hostility but you know what so did Trump)

https://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/01/world/africa/01iht-iran.4.12492135.html

On rigging, Harry Reid, ""I knew — everybody knew — that this was not a fair deal," he added."

https://thehill.com/blogs/ballot-box/presidential-races/289532-reid-dnc-never-gave-sanders-fair-deal

and on and on

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So a quote from 2008 on if Iran used nukes and a quote that says nothing about rigging.

 

[xxracerxx]

On Iran, Hillary, "I want the Iranians to know that if I'm the president, we will attack Iran," (she clarifies with justification about hostility but you know what so did Trump)

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Later clarifies? This is the quote:

"Clinton made the comments in an interview on ABC last week. "I want the Iranians to know that if I'm the president, we will attack Iran," she said when she was asked what she would do if Iran attacked Israel with nuclear weapons."

 

[MrGerbils]

the question Hillary was responding to was literally "what would you do if Iran nuked Israel" and I think this pretty much sums up the credence people should give any of your posts

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"Clinton's record as a military hawk is well-known. She voted for the Iraq War as a senator. As secretary of state, she pushed for U.S. intervention in Libya and lobbied President Obama to take military action against Bashar al-Assad in Syria. She was lukewarm about the nuclear deal with Iran.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-clinton-foreign-policy-commentary-idUSKCN0YU2UT

Hillary is a war hawk who would jump at the chance for a war with Iran. Debating this ain't even worth the time.

 

[DrBillRiverman]

If the left wing of American politics can't get over shit like this, then they fucking deserve four more years of Trump

 

[Deleted member 36578]

It sucks this is such a big issue and such a focal point of the news cycle.

 

[Snowy]

this argument doesn't work on the level of individual bernie-or-trump supporters, you need a coherent and large-sized bloc for bruenig's logic to work

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The original logic it's responding to ALSO doesn't work, is the point, or at least not without contortions that essentially break the fiction that moderates and Leftists can find common ground. The anti-Bernie people are the ones postulating that Bernie Bros will stay home or vote Trump if he's not the nominee, so if they genuinely think that that is an electorally significant chunk, then that is the logical consequence.

 

[pigeon]

This would be true if Biden had collapsed, as many expected, but he didn't. He's still winning. That being the case, one of them needs to cannibalize the other NOW, or risk Biden running away with it before either gets in a position to amicably endorse the other one.

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No, you have that exactly backwards. If Biden were already collapsing it would be very important for Bernie or Warren to come out on top in Iowa and N.H. and be the frontrunner, so that support would migrate towards them. But he isn't, and he is gaining in both states and will probably end up the frontrunner even if he does not win either of them, so neither Bernie nor Warren can expect to win just by making a strong showing in the early states. They would need to completely and carefully pull together the leftist vote to have a chance in a long primary against Biden. That isn't happening.

The point is that the concern isn't Biden running away with it early — he's the national leader. He runs away with it late, unless somebody can weld together the vast majority of the non-Biden vote.

 

[Mahonay]

If the left wing of American politics can't get over shit like this, then they fucking deserve four more years of Trump

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Bad faith actors are egging it on, just like last time.

 

[Cipherr]

I guess Biden will easily win now.

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Biden was always going to win it.

 

[Iggelich]

Actually it isn't that secret. They are openly admitting to being a Trump supporter, or at least they will be if Bernie doesn't win.

Not voting against Donald Trump when you have the power to do so IS supporting Donald Trump. And they have said that if Bernie doesn't win the democratic nomination that is exactly what they plan to do.

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This is a great stance if you want to feel morally superior. Do you think this stance is going to help win against Trump?

 

[Ichthyosaurus]

"Clinton's record as a military hawk is well-known. She voted for the Iraq War as a senator. As secretary of state, she pushed for U.S. intervention in Libya and lobbied President Obama to take military action against Bashar al-Assad in Syria. She was lukewarm about the nuclear deal with Iran.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-clinton-foreign-policy-commentary-idUSKCN0YU2UT

Hillary is a war hawk who would jump at the chance for a war with Iran. Debating this ain't even worth the time.

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This is what she did with Iran in 2017.

https://www.politico.com/story/2017/10/15/clinton-trump-iran-nuclear-243787

 

[mAcOdIn]

No it's not meant to be honest it's meant to reveal how it's certainly just as valid as what's being leveled against me. That unless I back Biden then I'm a Trump supporter.

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Who is throwing shit at anyone for their primary vote? People say that shit about not voting for a hypothetical Biden nominee in the General, not the damn primary. Now, not voting for Biden in the general basically is a vote for Trump.

They were one among many reasons's he lost, and no she didn't lose because she was Hilary Clinton. America's had conflicts with Russia before Putin was born and likely will after he's gone. Part of foreign country's being able to tear down others from the inside is doing exactly that, its why America's been so successful aboard with that tactic. The quote "divide and conquer" was attributed to Julius Caesar.

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Sure, but the GOP's already doing it all on their own anyways, if they were saner Russia would have to work a lot harder than making up some Facebook memes and telling people to make "lock her up signs."

 

[D.Dragoon]

Can we stop with the unity BS in the primary, they are supposed to go against each other right now. Unity matters when we have a nominee. This is literally nothing compared to the shit Obama and Clinton were flinging at each other in 08.

 

[BanGy]

Elizabeth Warren didn't shake Bernie Sanders hand because in 2008 Hillary Clinton said she'd attack Iran if they nuked an allied nation.

 

[Kyra]

What are you talking about? How is the avoidance of a handshake not a response from the candidate herself? You are laying it on others when clearly the two aren't over this yet.

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The "avoidance of a handshake" is very likely not at all a response from her at all. Look at what we are doing here. We are literally looking at body language and speculating with certainty what's in the hearts and minds of two candidates with a headline from a network that, just moments before, blatantly tried to get these two to argue over a petty interaction. This even with responses from both candidates throwing shade at that network and trying to put the issue to rest. The ownus is absolutely on us because we are falling for it again.

 

[Mahonay]

This is a great stance if you want to feel morally superior. Do you think this stance is going to help win against Trump?

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Uh, yes, a vote against Trump is going to help.

...as opposed to not voting...

Is this a trick question?

 

[Oniletter]

Of course not, but I also will not hold my nose and vote. I did before but won't again. The Democrats need to earn my vote.

I would rather vote for what I believe in and lose than for something I don't and "win."

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Then you would be complicit in everything a hypothetical Trump 2.0 does on top of being a massive piece of excrement. The fucking gall to flaunt your privilage in everyones face.

 

[Ichthyosaurus]

Sure, but the GOP's already doing it all on their own anyways, if they were saner Russia would have to work a lot harder than making up some Facebook memes and telling people to make "lock her up signs."

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It being easy like that doesn't mitigate the destruction they caused by helping Trump. It's the same result.

 

[Mahonay]

Elizabeth Warren didn't shake Bernie Sanders hand because in 2008 Hillary Clinton said she'd attack Iran if they nuked an allied nation.

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Lol

 

[xxracerxx]

Elizabeth Warren didn't shake Bernie Sanders hand because in 2008 Hillary "War Hawk" Clinton said she'd attack Iran if they nuked an allied nation.

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Fixed.

 

[pigeon]

The original logic it's responding to ALSO doesn't work, is the point, or at least not without contortions that essentially break the fiction that moderates and Leftists can find common ground. The anti-Bernie people are the ones postulating that Bernie Bros will stay home or vote Trump if he's not the nominee, so if they genuinely think that that is an electorally significant chunk, then that is the logical consequence.

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you're just recapitulating the argument and I already explained that it is wrong

there is no postulating here he literally said it directly

we're not talking about large-scale electoral questions here, we're talking about a single person saying they prefer trump be re-elected to voting for biden, I understand you don't really believe that people can make moral choices at all but personally I think preferring the nazi be re-elected is a bad choice that reflects badly on you

 

[MrGerbils]

Then you would be complicit in everything a hypothetical Trump 2.0 does on top of being a massive piece of excrement. The fucking gall to flaunt your privilage in everyones face.

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You ignoring Sanders base and crossover appeal and voting for anyone else in the primary is literally demonstrating the same "gall" and "privilege."

Biden running against Trump in the general will make you "complicit" in Trump's win because you voted for your beliefs rather than for electability.

 

[Cipherr]

Of course not, but I also will not hold my nose and vote. I did before but won't again. The Democrats need to earn my vote.

I would rather vote for what I believe in and lose than for something I don't and "win."

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Wheeeew... This is the real value of these discussions really. It illuminates how many people are playing Liberal because they are having 'fun' right now, versus how many people really want progress. Saying something like this completely banishes you from the conversation on the direction the country is going in my eyes. Just as soon as you can't completely have it your way; fuck it all because I'll be okay anyway. Meanwhile those in the cross hairs get fucked because couldn't have your cake and eat it too.

You ignoring Sanders base and crossover appeal and voting for anyone else in the primary is literally demonstrating the same "gall" and "privilege."

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Nah, there's no "Whatbouting" your way out of that statement dude. Claiming that the country deliver your specific candidate, or go burn in hell is a one way street. You don't get to come back from that. Every single person 'holding their nose and voting' has the moral high ground on you. And its not even close.

 

[Snowy]

No, you have that exactly backwards. If Biden were already collapsing it would be very important for Bernie or Warren to come out on top in Iowa and N.H. and be the frontrunner, so that support would migrate towards them. But he isn't, and he is gaining in both states and will probably end up the frontrunner even if he does not win either of them, so neither Bernie nor Warren can expect to win just by making a strong showing in the early states. They would need to completely and carefully pull together the leftist vote to have a chance in a long primary against Biden. That isn't happening.

The point is that the concern isn't Biden running away with it early — he's the national leader. He runs away with it late, unless somebody can weld together the vast majority of the non-Biden vote.

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This makes zero sense. Delegates can't switch their vote until the second ballot, at which point the superdelegates (if they're even needed) would completely wreck even their combined efforts because, yeah, they're going to go for Biden, especially if he has the highest total delegate count. The only chance either of them has is to rack up some early wins, soak up as many of the supporters of the one that inevitably soon drops out as they can, and try to close the margins enough in the South so that Biden's likely string of victories there don't net him too many delegates to mathematically overcome, as happened with Hillary.

 

[xxracerxx]

You ignoring Sanders base and crossover appeal and voting for anyone else in the primary is literally demonstrating the same "gall" and "privilege."

Biden running against Trump in the general will make you "complicit" in Trump's win because you voted for your beliefs rather than for electability.

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Fucking what? How the fuck are you not getting the difference between a primary vote and voting for the Dem Presidential candidate that gets the nom through the primaries?

 

[Captjohnboyd]

Lol electability from the guy who still can't crack number one with two years of campaigning

 

[MrGerbils]

Wheeeew... This is the real value of these discussions really. It illuminates how many people are playing Liberal because they are having 'fun' right now, versus how many people really want progress. Saying something like this completely banishes you from the conversation on the direction the country is going in my eyes. Just as soon as you can't completely have it your way; fuck it all because I'll be okay anyway. Meanwhile those in the cross hairs get fucked because couldn't have your cake and eat it too.

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My family is drowning in medical debt after two unexpected deaths in the family, my mother in law took a job at Walmart to get some health coverage after her husbands job got converted to a full time contractor position (in order to cut costs on benefits), none of my nieces or nephews will be attending college due to their parents still struggling with their own student loans, my own child is named after a friend who died in Iraq fighting a war that officially was completely pointless (that Biden voted for... and Warren just voted to increase Trump's military budget emboldening him on this senseless confrontation with Iran).

Look if you have some cushy corporate job with great health insurance and the idea of another war in the Middle East is just some abstract concept to you, then I get it how "Gee a woman could be VP in the White House!" is enough, but it's not for me. This shit is personal in a thousand ways.

This election is life or death for a lot of people in this country. And those people are NOT going to show up for Joe "return to normalcy" Biden in the general. They just won't.

 

[Iggelich]

Uh, yes, a vote against Trump is going to help.

...as opposed to not voting...

Is this a trick question?

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Ok, I'm going to answer as if this was an honest post, in case it is.
I was talking about trying to shame people into voting a certain way.

 

[Deleted member 60096]

You ignoring Sanders base and crossover appeal and voting for anyone else in the primary is literally demonstrating the same "gall" and "privilege."

Biden running against Trump in the general will make you "complicit" in Trump's win because you voted for your beliefs rather than for electability.

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pretty sure nobody here is voting for Biden in the primary.

 

[Snowy]

you're just recapitulating the argument and I already explained that it is wrong

there is no postulating here he literally said it directly

we're not talking about large-scale electoral questions here, we're talking about a single person saying they prefer trump be re-elected to voting for biden, I understand you don't really believe that people can make moral choices at all but personally I think preferring the nazi be re-elected is a bad choice that reflects badly on you

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You asserted, you didn't explain.

 

[Mahonay]

you're just recapitulating the argument and I already explained that it is wrong

there is no postulating here he literally said it directly

we're not talking about large-scale electoral questions here, we're talking about a single person saying they prefer trump be re-elected to voting for biden, I understand you don't really believe that people can make moral choices at all but personally I think preferring the nazi be re-elected is a bad choice that reflects badly on you

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This makes zero sense. Delegates can't switch their vote until the second ballot, at which point the superdelegates (if they're even needed) would completely wreck even their combined efforts because, yeah, they're going to go for Biden, especially if he has the highest total delegate count. The only chance either of them has is to rack up some early wins, soak up as many of the supporters of the one that inevitably soon drops out as they can, and try to close the margins enough in the South so that Biden's likely string of victories there don't net him too many delegates to mathematically overcome, as happened with Hillary.

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I like how two are having a legitimately thoughtful and knowledgeable debate on the issue

Meanwhile MrGerbils is transforming into a corn cob

 

[Green Yoshi]

And this man is supposed to have said that a woman could not be president. Now, there's no need to believe that statement.

 

[Captjohnboyd]

And those people are NOT going to show up for Joe "return to normalcy" Biden in the general. They just won't.

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Name one metric other than your feelings that backs this up

 

[Mivey]

Hillary is a war hawk who would jump at the chance for a war with Iran. Debating this ain't even worth the time.

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I wholeheartedly agree. After she butchered poor Benjamin Ghazi and his family in Libya for no reason, who knows what this war hawk, no this war eagle, or better, this war gryphon - yes, that's more fitting to her blood-lust - could do to Iran? Maybe she would already have started and finished WW3 by this point , with the world of this hypothetical 2020 being an atomic post-apocalyptic hellscape.

 

[Steel]

Imagine going from someone being your second choice to not voting for them in the general over a fucking handshake. Imagine being that kinda Gerbil.