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SturokBGD

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,414
Ontario
I hate that I have such a low opinion of Sunshine. It's mechanically fantastic, it's just fun to run around and play without FLUDD and all that. The 'summer vacation' vibe is great, along with the music it really feels like sunshine in video game form.

But then there's the level design, the terrible camera, the poorly thought out blue coin stuff, the game starts to feel like it was made by a C-tier budget studio. I think it's just a victim of the situation Nintendo were in at the time. An HD 'director's cut' version could save it.
 

ShinUltramanJ

Member
Oct 27, 2017
12,949
I wasn't a big fan. Loved the setting, but I disliked cleaning things while having to fend off blobs.

I'm curious if the people who like the game are playing on GameCube? Or an emulator where they can use a better controller, and tweak settings to make it a better experience?
 

Deleted member 21

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 24, 2017
1,559
The sections without FLUDD give you a glimpse at the potential this title had

Sadly, they focused on FLUDD for 90% of the time

I enjoy watching good speedruns of that shit now and then but as a successor to 64 it's eh
 

TheMink

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,909
Connecticut
I think that the criticisms come from very specific levels and a clearly rushed ending. The manta ray boss being one of the worst things ever.

The ending being so bleh makes for that taste being the thing people remember. Not the charm or the tight controls or the cool World building.

I love it, but it makes sense that people would dislike it.
 

CellarDoor

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
316
Absolutely. Had a vision for Mario ahead of its time. A dense environment rather than a spread out one.

Also the Warp levels are Mario at its best. They are literally the best Mario levels ever.
 

HyGogg

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,495
I got it bundled with the GC when it first came out and It's the only game I ever traded into Gamestop for their ripoff prices. I just hated it.

I revisited it very recently and it's worse than I remember. It's the only Mario game where I really remember being frustrated by the controls. The game encouraged your to explore and climb, but it was so easy to slip off a ledge with the slightest mis-step. The camera is really bad (and left-right inverted for some reason), which I guess was typical of 2002, but was really at odds with trying to negotiate the trickier platforming in parts. The FLUDD mechanics are a bad fit for the game, and it also feels like they didn't have enough content and just made you play these levels too many times. Odyssey also features a lower level count that pushes you to explore the same stages, but never falls into this trap of making you feel like you're doing the same thing over and over again.

People hem and haw like "Well it's just not as good as the other Marios," but it's not even as good as like Billy Hatcher. It's kind of bad. It's in the ball park of like Shadow the Hedgehog or something. Not unplayable, but unenjoyable.
 
Oct 27, 2017
6,411
I actually think it's worse than it's reputation.

And I loved it as a kid. It just has aged really poorly. Controls, camera, level design, etc., it just doesn't hold up as well as Mario 64.
 

bionic77

Member
Oct 25, 2017
30,888
It's an amazing game and platformer.

Not a great Mario game. Only because of the insane standards of the best franchise and name in the industry. It still blows my mind that Nintendo is still hitting grand slams with Mario 30+ years after the series debuted. That's not common in any form of media. Nintendo really deserves praise and I said it before but we need a documentary or two into how they pull this shit off.
 

eponymous

Member
Oct 27, 2017
267
UK
Every time I restart this game I get a little further than the previous attempt but I always give up for some reason.
 

ec0ec0

Member
Oct 26, 2017
397
I actually think it's worse than it's reputation.

And I loved it as a kid. It just has aged really poorly. Controls, camera, level design, etc., it just doesn't hold up as well as Mario 64.

ehhh... i agree with 64 easily being the better game. However, i wouldn't say that the controls or the camera, are things that don't hold up in sunshine but do it 64.

Controls in sunshine are amazing ("controls" don't only include how it "feels" to move mario around, which has been improved since then, but it also takes into account mario's moveset, which was at its best in sunshine).

And as annoying as the camera could be at times in sunshine, you had an analog stick to control the camera, conpared to the c-stick buttons of the Nintendo 64 controller for mario 64.
 

HyGogg

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,495
ehhh... i agree with 64 easily being the better game. However, i wouldn't say that the controls or the camera, are things that don't hold up in sunshine but do it 64.

Controls in sunshine are amazing ("controls" don't only include how it "feels" to move mario around, which has been improved since then, but it also takes into account mario's moveset, which was at its best in sunshine).

And as annoying as the camera could be at times in sunshine, you had an analog stick to control the camera, conpared to the c-stick buttons of the Nintendo 64 controller for mario 64.
It might be that the controls and camera are at odds with the design in Sunshine, but not in 64, rather than because they're just worse on their own merits, but Sunshine left me constantly frustrated at trying to make Mario do what I wanted him to do, and 64 didn't.
 

ec0ec0

Member
Oct 26, 2017
397
I love it. I hope they can release a HD version for the Switch.

I could just spend hours squirting water, and sliding around and then jetting all over the ocean.

"squirting" water sound... odd? wouldn't "spraying water" work better? my main language isn't english, though, so maybe someone else should comment on it.
 

rewkol

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
382
"squirting" water sound... odd? wouldn't "spraying water" work better? my main language isn't english, though, so maybe someone else should comment on it.

I agree it sounds a little interesting, but by definition squirting matches the main action of Sunshine better, though you can also spray water in Sunshine...
 

FarronFox

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,429
Melbourne, Australia
"squirting" water sound... odd? wouldn't "spraying water" work better? my main language isn't english, though, so maybe someone else should comment on it.

Well.. spraying or squirting - either way! :)

I guess I just said squirting as you held down the triggers on the control and you can then squirt water out like a hose or water pistol. I tend to think of spray as putting out a somewhat fine mist of water, but it really could work in the same instance instead of squirt too.
 
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RockyMin

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,450
I think Sunshine is one of the best 3D Marios and it gets a lot of undeserved hate. Sunshine, along with 64 are my favorite 3D Marios, and so far it looks like Odyssey will be joining those two at the top of my list.
 

Deleted member 20429

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 28, 2017
133
The game gave off a really odd atmosphere for me when I was playing it. The whole time something just felt off. The levels lacked a lot of charm and clever design for me and none of them really stand out for it.

It wasn't a bad game though, and I do think I judge it harshly because it has Mario in its title.

I do really want to go back and give it another go though, maybe it can change my mind.
 

Zojirushi

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,293
I'm watching the GiantBomb playthrough and their experience seems to be in line with what I remember being mine back in the day. Which means kinda bad.

So no personally I think this game is remembered pretty much for what it was.
 

Z.C

Member
Oct 27, 2017
179
Melbourne, Australia
Really loved Sunshine, even though FLUDD was annoying to use but at least it was something different. Enjoyed the platform level's where you didn't get to use FLUDD at all, fell to oblivion so many times. Would gladly buy a HD version and replay the whole game all over again.
 

Thirty-three

Member
Oct 27, 2017
27
I really enjoyed sunshine. It has nothing on Mario 64, which was an important game in gaming history, but it was really fun.

I think it is underappreciated overall. I was still really happy to hear odyssey was not further on that thread.
 

Deleted member 283

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,288
I think that the criticisms come from very specific levels and a clearly rushed ending. The manta ray boss being one of the worst things ever.

The ending being so bleh makes for that taste being the thing people remember. Not the charm or the tight controls or the cool World building.

I love it, but it makes sense that people would dislike it.
It's not just stuff like Corona Mountain, though it and the final fight are very clear signs of how the game was rushed out the door. There's other signs all other the place that the game was rushed. Like, okay, for Sunshine they decided to have the entire game be themed around a tropical resort. That's not really my thing and I personally feel that the game suffered more for that then it benefited due to the lower variety of levels compared to 64, but there's nothing wrong with the idea in theory. The problem was that not only did they go with a theme for the entire game, but the game had like HALF the number of worlds 64, which reduced the opportunities Sunshine had to show its stuff and combined with the theme made everything feel even more samey and feel like Sunshine had less ideas than it did.

Then, on top of having a lower number of worlds than, they made the decision to not only keep mission types from 64 like the Hundred Coin Star and the Red Coin Star, but had TWO shines dedicated to Red Coin collecting in each world (one in the main world, and one going through the FLUDD-less stage a second time just to collect more red coins). Then on top of that, if you want to go for 100%, you have 24 FURTHER Shines dedicated to collecting Blue Coins, with each one of those requiring you to collect 10 Blue Coins scattered throughout all of Isle Delfino, for a total of 240 Blue Coins scattered through the games world on top of the Red Coin and Hundred Coin stars.

But then, on top of THAT, each world has a new throwaway mission type: the Shadow Mario levels, where you do the same exact thing, just chasing down Shadow Mario and spraying him with FLUDD until he runs away and coughs up a Shine. None of the missions mix it up or do anything interesting at all or have any twists. It's just chase him down, spray him with water, collect Shine. All over super quick.

And the worst part of them is that despite them not being anything great, the entire game revolves around them because they're connected to the game's "story." Like, one of the things I liked most about Super Mario 64 as a kid (and still do) is just how open it is. What's the unlock requirement for the final stage in 64, Bowser in the Sky? Collect 70 Power Stars. Game doesn't really care which ones at all. Got 70 Power Stars? Game lets you in. That simple. Sunshine, on the other hand? Because of the game's story, and it's new revamped mission system, the unlock condition for Corona Mountain is not something like collect 70 Shines ala 64 or a slightly different amount ala Galaxy. Nope, instead, the condition for getting into the (obviously rushed, extremely linear, short, and empty) Corona Mountain is that you have to beat the Shadow Mario mission in each of the games main worlds. And the Shadow Mario mission is always Episode 7 in each world. So, without using any glitches or skips or anything of the world, each time you want to even beat the game, nevermind get 100%, just because of those terrible, throwaway levels that have nothing interesting about them or sets them apart at all, you have to play those same exact seven episodes. at the very least.

Coming from 64, that was a HUGE letdown for me. I loved the choice I had with 64, and that's just gone in Sunshine. Fortunately, it came back in Galaxy, but that just makes Sunshine stand out all the more with just how much it railroads the player among 3D Marios. There's no reason to be that restrictive. Especially since it's not like the Shadow Mario missions (aside from the one at the very beginning of the game I guess and the one in Pinna Park) absolutely contribute to the game's story in NO WAY. Shadow Mario just shows up, you spray him with FLUDD, he moans a bit, runs away, and leaves a Shine behind. That's it. There's no particular reason for story progress to be gated by those piles of nothing and for the mission to be reused each world on top of the existing trope of the (now 2) Red Coin Shines and Hundred Coin Shines aside from Sunshine just clearly being rushed and forced out the door before it was ready due to the Gamecube performing absolutely terribly for Nintendo, and the game really suffered for it (at least it did for me because if I at least had the option of picking which shines I wanted ala 64, that would have added so much more replayability to the game for me due to me being able to mix up which Shines I do and don't collect each time I play through. Instead, each playthrough of Sunshine ends up being pretty "linear" and samey for me just due to that one requirement as there's really no point in even bothering with the other Shines since they literally do not matter in any way unless you're going for 100%).

But yeah, it's so much more than just Corona Mountain and select shines like the Pachinko level or the Yoshi-Isle-Delfino-Boating-Boretacular-Expedition leading up to the stupid leaf-rafting coin collecting mission. There's just so much evidence that the game was rushed through and through and sent out the door before it was ready because of how the Gamecube completely flopped, and the game suffered so much for it, not just in a lower number of worlds, but more reused mission types. That just is what it is, but it being the case, and all of that put together, is definitely why Sunshine is absolutely my least favorite 3D Mario.
 

solarboy

Member
Oct 27, 2017
28
It certainly gets a lot of undue hate. I don't know if I would call it the best Mario game -- that's probably Galaxy -- but it might be my favorite. People like to dick on the jet pack, but I thought it added a lot more freedom and versatility to your moveset. Figuring out how to exploit it in concert with the environment to take big skips and shortcuts was revelatory for a Mario game.

I think the best way to sum it up is that it has the lowest lows -- the Pachinko area, the lilypads, getting Yoshi across the harbor and Corona Volcano -- but also the highest highs (the FLUDD-less, abstract challenge levels with bangin' music that to this day remain my favorite thing in a Mario game and likely the inspiration for Galaxy's obstacle course design).

The game's beautiful, also. I think it's aged better, visually, than any other Mario game. Locking the setting down to something as specific and thematically consistent as tropical island really did wonders for the aesthetic.
 

Deleted member 16039

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
793
I used to hate SM Sunshine, especially everything about Yoshi (water kills him, in worlds where sea is everywhere and water is one of the CORE element of the game, he also dies of starvation if you don't feed him), the entire blue coins quest for the road to 100%, the "boss" battles where you fight thrice the same bosses with nothing new, the finale, the unskippable five minutes cut-scene, only seven worlds...

After Super Mario 64, I had too many expectations. I wanted at least the same amount of worlds, bigger than SM64 ones, I wanted to ride Yoshi and do some cool stuff with him, fighting various bosses...

I'll always admit that the game is great, it is a very, very good game, but I really dislike it.

EDIT :
Funny thing that despite being way more linear rather than having open levels, SMG 1 & 2 absolutly nailed everything I wanted about SMS (in fact, SMG 1 is my favorite 3D platformer).
 

AdropOFvenom

Member
Oct 27, 2017
242
It's an 8.5/10 Mario Game in a field full of 9.5/10 Mario games. That's not to say it's a bad game, it's still quite good compared to much of the stuff on the market, especially from that era. But given the expectations of the series, it just falls short.
 

Juup

Member
Oct 27, 2017
41
It is indeed pretty easy to note some serious flaws and untapped potential, as others have pointed out. So yes, it is the least polished 3D Mario game.

But, I do think Sunshine is simply very fun to play in general, despite the shortcomings and frustrating parts. I like the way how Mario's movement feels and how you can move around quickly by spraying some water and then belly slide over it. Also, the game radiates energy, has a relaxed atmosphere, it's just nice. The tropical theme is a nice change of pace for Mario, and the individual levels are still different enough from each other imo (theme wise).

I do prefer it to 3D Land for example, which is actually more polished, but lacks the energy and fun other 3D Mario titles have.
 

ec0ec0

Member
Oct 26, 2017
397
you know what would have made sunshine dramatically better? more verticality

There were only 7 diferent worlds in the game, and half on those were mostly flat surfaces (Pianta Village, Gelato Beach, Sirena Beach, Bianco Hills still quite a lot).

There wasn't much point in asking mario to make horizontal jumps when he had the waterpack, so they didn't. Levels were just big flat surfaces instead. However, there was still a lot of room for making levels that forced mario to go upwards.

The levels could have:

(note: not saying that the levels should have relied solely on this, these are just examples for the direction in which to take things)

1. ask you to use a wall jump or an otherwise high jump to gain heigh and land on the plaform above. The waterpack would only help you with holding onto the platform.

2. have platforms that are far appart from one another both horizontally and vertically.

By doing this, the player wouldn't be able to use the water pack to save himself every time, and would have to choose his jump carefully instead. This is becuase you gain a lot of horizontal distance when using the waterpack, but not height.

3. have platforms that aren't far appart from one another horizontally, but are vertically.

To mix things up.

There should still be a heigh difference between the plaforms, though, as, without it, all you'd have to do would be to use a regular jump and then the waterpack.

That's pretty much it.

The only stage that was kinda like this was the east side of Noki Bay? (not talking about the parts you exposed by spraying water at the walls, and that had blue coins in them, let's forget about the blue coins).

Honestly, i thought that mario's moveset (water pack included) was super fun to use in sunshine, but we didn't have levels that were well balanced around mario's abilities.

Think 64's tick tock clock but for sunshine. Levels like that, we're you can put mario's moveset to good use to go up.
 
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Megatron

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,445
I loved it. I really liked that it focused a whole game on one theme: being on an island. You didn't have the typical Mario tropes of: gotta have a fire level, gotta have a desert level, etc. it was all designed on an island which I found refreshing. Hopefully I can replay it on the Switch some time.
 

J-Spot

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,319
I liked it a lot when it came out but I think the long fought between MARIO games influenced me a bit. When I tried going back to it a few years ago I found myself frustrated by a lot of things and ended up dropping it a few worlds in. What really stood out to me was just how few unique shine objectives there were. Red coins, yellow coins, blue coins, boss refights, and shadow Mario chases really wore thin after awhile.
 

Doskoi Panda

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
14,939
It's the worst 3D Mario game and it absolutely deserves that reputation. It's janky like a rushed game and it's got filler stars for days. It's not a bad game by any stretch but it can't hang with polished games like Galaxy and Odyssey to me
 

TheDylantula

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8
Sunshine 2 when?

But seriously, I loved Sunshine. My 3rd favorite Mario game. Was second, but uh, Odyssey. (2nd is Super Mario World)
 

DanteLinkX

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,730
Mario sunshine was incredible at the time, and it still is, one of the best water effects in gaming. I also loved Fludd abilities.
 

Jamie

Unshakable Resolve - Prophet of Truth
Member
Oct 27, 2017
940
Was one of my favorite games at the time, I absolutely loved the cleaning mechanic. I've also convinced myself that every single Splatoon player were huge Mario Sunshine fans.
 

Fuchsia

Member
Oct 28, 2017
6,641
Yes it was. Great game. People really give it too much grief. I get it, it has some flaws. But there is so much fun to be had from this game.

After Galaxy and odyssey, I really want the next 3D mario to have a world that is more persistent and connected like Sunshine's was. The wackiness of contemporary 3D mario is great and all but im really missing that cohesion and atmosphere that Sunshine had. Maybe I'm weird though. Stuff like that can really work wonders for my enjoyment of a game.
 

Hat22

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
1,652
Canada
Yes it was. Great game. People really give it too much grief. I get it, it has some flaws. But there is so much fun to be had from this game.

After Galaxy and odyssey, I really want the next 3D mario to have a world that is more persistent and connected like Sunshine's was. The wackiness of contemporary 3D mario is great and all but im really missing that cohesion and atmosphere that Sunshine had. Maybe I'm weird though. Stuff like that can really work wonders for my enjoyment of a game.

What are the flaws? Every game has minor problems but what are the glaring flaws that make people hate the game so much?
 

ilfait

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
327
Far better than its reputation suggests. It's top two or three in its series, which makes it one of the two or three best 3D platformers ever made.
 

Naveed

Member
Oct 27, 2017
65
I think it's worse than it's reputation, at least from what I've been accustomed to hearing. You say everyone is negative on Sunshine but it seems like the majority of Mario fans love it. I think it's fine but it's definitely one of the worst 3D Mario games. For me 3D World is the only Mario game that is worse. Like I said though, I'm not saying the game is bad. One of the worst 3D Mario games is still better than most games out there.
 

Fuchsia

Member
Oct 28, 2017
6,641
What are the flaws? Every game has minor problems but what are the glaring flaws that make people hate the game so much?

I think people really didn't like the blue coins and the FLUDD in general. It was also very exploration focused, a thing that I love about it, 64 and Odyssey. To me 3d mario is about a healthy dose of exploration.

But I've even heard people complain about the soundtrack. Which I just don't get at all. It's hard to not have a smile on your face when the music is playing in Sunshine. Coupled with the beautiful environments and just jolly vibe in general. Sigh... I don't know.
 

MidiPour

Member
Oct 27, 2017
393
Texas
Nah.

Sunshine was the second worst 3D Mario (3D Land being #1 worst).

I've noticed it's gotten a lot of praise recently.

Agree that it was the second worst game in the 3D Mario series, but that's not saying much since I feel there hasn't been a bad game in the series.

There are a number of game design issues with Sunshine that simply can't be ignored though, which include how difficult it is to navigate with the camera at times, some of the challenges are poorly designed, and the FLUDD gives too much leeway while platforming.

Like many posters have stated though, thematically I really appreciated Sunshine, and the occasional stages without the FLUDD were great. But compared to how polished the other games in the series have been, it's difficult to not see the game as being one of the worst. Even if that at the end of the day amounts to a 8.5/10 type experience.
 

AndreGX

GameXplain
Verified
Oct 24, 2017
1,815
San Francisco
What are the flaws? Every game has minor problems but what are the glaring flaws that make people hate the game so much?

  • Linear mission-to-mission design was a huge step back from Super Mario 64's open-ended design
  • Too many repetitive objectives repeated level to level
  • Too few levels
  • Level themes are boringly similar
  • Piantas are some of Nintendo's most hideous creations
  • Fludd's annoying presence
  • Fludd's annoying controls (Platformers shouldn't have key features depend on a toggle)
  • The camera is god awful
  • Blue Coins are a nightmare to collect thanks to their instanced appearances
  • Terrible 100% reward for going through said nightmare
  • The general presentation is goofy (Peach is an idiot, Bowser's speech, Delfino's justice system...or lack thereof)
  • Yoshi is actively annoying to use
  • Final level is clearly rushed and unsatisfying
  • The final boss is anti-climatic and has a terrible frame rate

For starters.
 
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Deleted member 33

Account closed at user request
Banned
Oct 24, 2017
1,457
In my opinion, Mario Sunshine needs an HD remake more than any other Nintendo game.

It would give Nintendo an opportunity to polish all of the game's flaws and issues.
  • Improve the camera system and controls.
  • Improve the level design.
  • Increase the framerate to 60 fps.
  • Even add a multiplayer mode. Multiplayer was cut from the final game due to a lack of time.
 

Genetrik

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,728
I loved it as it was able to create this wonderful vacation atmosphere for me. And I will never forgot the gorgeous water effects at the time.
 

ilfait

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
327
I can't judge it fairly because I haven't played it myself. But through watching the Giant Bomb play through currently airing it definitely seems to have a fair few issues that had been ironed out by the time Galaxy and 3D World came about.
It feels like a good game trapped in between a revolutionary one and the ones that finally cracked how to craft a 3D Mario.
Yeah, but it's like they had the temperature set too high and ironed a hole right through the fabric. It's finally been patched with Odyssey, but you can still tell where the hole was.
 

thomasmahler

Game Director at Moon Studios
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
1,097
Vienna / Austria
That game has probably the worst level design in any Mario game ever. It's not a terrible game, but some really strange design decisions and bad level design make this one feel like a 7/10 to me.