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Washington Post: Obama met with Beto about running in 2020

Oct 25, 2017
12,441
He invited SUSAN SURANDON? Jesus Christ what a tone deaf move.
He's spent his entire career being a sideline sniper and bitching at Democrats, so of course he invites people who do the same.
Black people and minorities can't be my focus when I want my progressive utopia, and I want it right now. Sorry Black people and minorities.
For some people, the fact that he's an old white man from Vermont who - through malice, ignorance, or some combination - wants to foreground the mythical ~~~white working class~~~ is a feature, not a bug.
 
Oct 27, 2017
744
I still can’t get over the fact he invited Susan Surandon

He really learned nothing
Sheesh, bringing in "Donald Trump will bring the revolution immediately and I'm endorsing Jill Stein" is a horrible selfish look. Yeah congrats people are much more motivated to be progressive thanks to Donald Trump. We also have a rapist appointed for a lifetime on the Supreme Court, children being taken from their parents and put in cages, and horrible economic policy that will soon cause problems worldwide.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,534
They’re still pondering who might run and trump has been having fucking rally’s for 2 years now.

They need to start moving on this shit.
They're not really comparable. Trump knows he's the Republican nominee, and he was recently the president during an election season. Of course he's going to be having rallies. The Democrats are well aware of their schedule. Many of the front runners have already visited New Hampshire, Iowa, etc.
 
Oct 25, 2017
12,441
Sheesh, bringing in "Donald Trump will bring the revolution immediately and I'm endorsing Jill Stein" is a horrible selfish look. Yeah congrats people are much more motivated to be progressive thanks to Donald Trump. We also have a rapist appointed for a lifetime on the Supreme Court, children being taken from their parents and put in cages, and horrible economic policy that will soon cause problems worldwide.
Nader's First Law: no threat of racism or economic damage should ever prevent a ~~~progressive~~~ from being able to feel smug about his or her vote.
 
Oct 27, 2017
414
Nader's First Law: no threat of racism or economic damage should ever prevent a ~~~progressive~~~ from being able to feel smug about his or her vote.
Yepppp. Nader made essentially the same argument as Sarandon in August 2000:

If California tips Green enough, Bush could win the state and the whole damn election.
Which, Nader confided to Outside in June, wouldn't be so bad. When asked if someone put a gun to his head and told him to vote for either Gore or Bush, which he would choose, Nader answered without hesitation: "Bush." Not that he actually thinks the man he calls "Bush Inc." deserves to be elected: "He'll do whatever industry wants done." The rumpled crusader clearly prefers to sink his righteous teeth into Al Gore, however: "He's totally betrayed his 1992 book," Nader says. "It's all rhetoric." Gore "groveled openly" to automakers, charges Nader, who concludes with the sotto voce realpolitik of a ward heeler: "If you want the parties to diverge from one another, have Bush win."
 
Oct 28, 2017
7,302
Cruz is way more popular than Trump in Texas (Cruz crushed Trump in the primary election in Texas). Beto is more likely to beat Trump in Texas than he was against Cruz.

Let alone the swing states which are far bluer than Texas is.
From my limited research, Cruz’s approval rating in Texas is 47% while Trumps is 51%
She helped elect Trump. Fuck that, she is no icon.
Lol Susan Sarandon absolutely did not help trump win the election at all. Some of you liberals thinks she has some kind of super influence that could overtake the likes of Beyoncé and Katy Perry.
 
Oct 27, 2017
1,998
Bernie is not an option on the table for most in the party and he never ever will be because of his constant tone deaf comments on race (not to mention a lot won’t vote for him because he is nearly 80). Warren is a terrible campaigner and completely unelectable and would get crushed by Trump.

That leaves Beto, Biden, Kamala, Gillibrand, etc who are pretty identical in their policies.

Who is this magical perfect way more liberal candidate than Beto that the party would nominate? Because it isn’t Bernie or Warren.

I am as hard left as it gets but I will never vote Bernie in a primary because his comments on race are offensive and disqualifying to me. And you have to realize A LOOOT in the party feel this way. It is also why he got little to no African American votes last time.

I’d listen to you if you could find me a Bernie who didn’t say tone deaf stupid comments on race all the time and wasn’t knocking on deaths door. But hey that isn’t an option.

There are perfectly valid reasons for someone who is very left to prefer Beto over Bernie or Warren. Saying he is “too centrist” won’t suddenly make them want the very flawed Bernie or Warren.

One of the main reasons Bernie lost last time was because of his issues with race. It is impossible to win a Democratic primary without sizable support of the African American community because they dominate all the southern primaries. He has done nothing to fix that issue. Literally nothing. And now he doesn’t get to run against the controversial Hillary but instead against younger, fresher, charismatic, candidates.
So for most of the party you are left picking from Beto, Kamala, Gillibrand Biden, and so on. Who all have pretty indentical policies. Which means most will vote on who they like the most, who excites them the most.
We have VPs for a reason you know.

I wouldn't vote for the likes of Biden, Trump or no Trump, so I am glad he isnt likely to run. That's a no go for me, I stop fully at centrist who attacks millennials and younger voters and would push bipartisanship.

Bernie, before his racial gaffes was doing worse with African Americans than Hillary. I dont think his gaffes were the main effect. It was who he was running against, that seemed to be the main cause. Why choose some guy over a person well known? The wife of Bill Clinton, the president African Americans loved, despite legislation that was used to put them behind bars in droves. Why choose Bernie over a person the first Black president put as SoS, who we all knew he was backing in 2016?

Bernie had a tough hill to climb there and to be clear, I am not saying his screw ups played no role. He needs to have better control on how he handles the issue.

Barring an extreme event or scandal like literally none of the 2020 contenders we are discussing would lose to Trump, electability isnt an argument now.

Hell even Hillary would have won if she focused on the battleground states and didn't have the Comey letter. That was an election we shouldn't have even been close in given U.S election cycle as context. 3 Democratic presidential elections in a row? It was their election to lose.

There is no other Bernie who could run right now. It is why we put our stack behind him.

I'm not going to ditch a policy juggernaut just because they are old, not as charismatic as someone else, or because of mistakes in messaging when his policies are really pro-Civil Rights.
 
Oct 27, 2017
744
Nader's First Law: no threat of racism or economic damage should ever prevent a ~~~progressive~~~ from being able to feel smug about his or her vote.
I'm just curious as to what exactly Bernie and his supporters thing he'd do as President.

Bernie

1. Does not care about gun control
2. Does not care about race relations

And if he and his voters think he can get a Republican senate to pass his universal healthcare and free college proposals they're out of their minds (not that I don't want to see this but if this is all you're bringing to the table as a candidate prepare for disappointment). Best case scenario is a lame duck president who doesn't do further damage to the country. But this would certainly include an energized Republican base during the midterms thanks to a self-proclaimed socialist in office that would certainly take back the House and perhaps the majority of state offices as well.

Now am I saying that Beto is the perfect candidate for both these issues and his presidency would go without a fault? Absolutely not. But his commitment to the right to kneel during the Anthem and the message behind it plus his anti gun beliefs IN FUCKING TEXAS have me convinced that he has a genuine interest in these issues and would move the country in the right direction at least, contrary to Bernie who doesn't give a shit. The Democrat who would replace Trump would spend most of their time cleaning his mess up but doing so plus focusing on grounded, tangible issues that affect every American would bring about a successful presidency in this current state of affairs.
 
Oct 25, 2017
22,370
From my limited research, Cruz’s approval rating in Texas is 47% while Trumps is 51%.
https://www.emerson.edu/news-events...s-look-hold-three-house-seats-wv#.W9r91pNKiUl Cruz outpolling Trump
http://cdn.cnn.com/cnn/2018/images/10/16/rel1_tx.pdf Cruz outpolling Trump
https://www.texastribune.org/2018/10/26/ut-tt-poll-ted-cruz-leads-beto-orourke-texas-senate/ Cruz outpolling Trump

(even though they suck w/ polling avg's, their aggregator is still useful: https://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/2018/senate/tx/texas_senate_cruz_vs_orourke-6310.html#polls )

You should probably actually "research" if you're going to talk about it.
 
Oct 28, 2017
7,302
We have VPs for a reason you know.

I wouldn't vote for the likes of Biden, Trump or no Trump, so I am glad he isnt likely to run. That's a no go for me, I stop fully at centrist who attacks millennials and younger voters and would push bipartisanship.

Bernie, before his racial gaffes was doing worse with African Americans than Hillary. I dont think his gaffes were the main effect. It was who he was running against, that seemed to be the main cause. Why choose some guy over a person well known? The wife of Bill Clinton, the president African Americans loved, despite legislation that was used to put them behind bars in droves. Why choose Bernie over a person the first Black president put as SoS, who we all knew he was backing in 2016?

Bernie had a tough hill to climb there and to be clear, I am not saying his screw ups played no role. He needs to have better control on how he handles the issue.

Barring an extreme event or scandal like literally none of the 2020 contenders we are discussing would lose to Trump, electability isnt an argument now.

Hell even Hillary would have won if she focused on the battleground states and didn't have the Comey letter. That was an election we shouldn't have even been close in given U.S election cycle as context. 3 Democratic presidential elections in a row? It was their election to lose.

There is no other Bernie who could run right now. It is why we put our stack behind him.

I'm not going to ditch a policy juggernaut just because they are old, not as charismatic as someone else, or because of mistakes in messaging when his policies are really pro-Civil Rights.
Co-signed. Bernie is a compromise candidate. He always was and always will be. He is very, very far from our ideal, but he is the closest. And like you said, his policies will definitely help civil rights. Medicare For All will help so many black and minority families alone.
 
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Cheebo
Oct 25, 2017
10,157
Ann Arbor, MI
Co-signed. Bernie is a compromise candidate. He always was and always will be. He is very, very far from our ideal, but he is the closest. And like you said, his policies will definitely help civil rights. Medicare For All will help so many black and minority families alone.
What is his actual policies on race relations and helping black communities? How does he address the fact he has publicly belittled their concerns time and time again?

Medicare For All (which is not something any Dem President is getting through their first term, 60 votes in senates aint happening) is not an answer to race relations.

I still love the idea that a 79 white dude from Vermont with a history of racially tone deaf comments will be the guy black people can count on.

I am not expecting you to get a reply to this, but bravo.
 
Oct 28, 2017
7,302
What is his actual policies on race relations and helping black communities? How does he address the fact he has publicly belittled their concerns time and time again?
I don’t feel like he belittled our concerns. He has said some fucked up shit, but it seems to stem from ignorance rather than condescension.
Medicare For All (which is not something any Dem President is getting through their first term, 60 votes in senates aint happening) is not an answer to race relations.
Medicare For All would definitely help out black families. Straight up. Free college. Higher minimum wage. Ending cash bail. Those things materially help black people and minorities. They don’t need to be specific to us in order to help us.
 
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Cheebo
Oct 25, 2017
10,157
Ann Arbor, MI
Simplest way to avert that in the event of a non-Bernie candidate winning is to just pick Bernie as the VP.
Having a 79 year old as VP doesn't make any sense.

Not to mention Bernie is unlikely to finish in the top 3 this go around anyway. Especially if Beto wins. A ticket of two white men? No chance that happens. I dont think the party will ever have a ticket of two white men ever again.
 
Oct 25, 2017
8,793
Having a 79 year old as VP doesn't make any sense.

Not to mention Bernie is unlikely to finish in the top 3 this go around anyway. Especially if Beto wins. A ticket of two white men? No chance that happens. I dont think the party will ever have a ticket of two white men ever again.
The American public clearly does not care about age anymore (see: Trump). If the party divisions end up being too strong, it's the most logical way to get everyone on board so there's no infighting.

I also didn't specify that Beto had to be the winner. I know the thread's about him, but I was saying it would be the quickest way for any winner to unify the party if it needs to be done.

Hillary should have done it.
 
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Cheebo
Oct 25, 2017
10,157
Ann Arbor, MI
I don’t feel like he belittled our concerns. He has said some fucked up shit, but it seems to stem from ignorance rather than condescension.


Medicare For All would definitely help out black families. Straight up. Free college. Higher minimum wage. Ending cash bail. Those things materially help black people and minorities. They don’t need to be specific to us in order to help us.
Okay, what can he do to help black people in America realistically? Things he can actually do with an at best 51 seat Dem majority senate which is the realistic optimistic senate outcome?

Things that are realistic with the congress the next President will have. Free college is not one of those things nor is Medicare for All.
 
Oct 25, 2017
22,370
I did say limited. And here’s where I got the rating for trump

https://morningconsult.com/tracking-trump/
You need to use the same poll to compare them, for obvious reasons.
The American public clearly does not care about age anymore (see: Trump). If the party divisions end up being too strong, it's the most logical way to get everyone on board so there's no infighting.

I also didn't specify that Beto had to be the winner. I know the thread's about him, but I was saying it would be the quickest way for any winner to unify the party if it needs to be done.

Hillary should have done it.
Unity with people whose identity is all about not being "mainstream" is fundamentally not possible. That's the non-ideological issue underlying all of the toxicity.
 
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Cheebo
Oct 25, 2017
10,157
Ann Arbor, MI
The American public clearly does not care about age anymore (see: Trump). If the party divisions end up being too strong, it's the most logical way to get everyone on board so there's no infighting.
Trump is old but still 6 years younger than Bernie, thats fairly significant of a gap at that high end of the age scale. Especially when it would be Bernies first term and Trumps second. Trump being old I would not say is the new norm.
 

Clipjoint

Banned
Member
Oct 27, 2017
157
User Banned (2 Weeks): Inflammatory commentary on race relations, Account in Junior Phase, History of similar infractions
What were Obama's policies on race relations? What were Clinton's?

Decoupling "race relations" from the economic/class discussion is the fundamental flaw here. This is why engaging in identity politics is so harmful.
 
Oct 27, 2017
414
I'm just curious as to what exactly Bernie and his supporters thing he'd do as President.

Bernie

1. Does not care about gun control
2. Does not care about race relations

And if he and his voters think he can get a Republican senate to pass his universal healthcare and free college proposals they're out of their minds (not that I don't want to see this but if this is all you're bringing to the table as a candidate prepare for disappointment). Best case scenario is a lame duck president who doesn't do further damage to the country. But this would certainly include an energized Republican base during the midterms thanks to a self-proclaimed socialist in office that would certainly take back the House and perhaps the majority of state offices as well.

Now am I saying that Beto is the perfect candidate for both these issues and his presidency would go without a fault? Absolutely not. But his commitment to the right to kneel during the Anthem and the message behind it plus his anti gun beliefs IN FUCKING TEXAS have me convinced that he has a genuine interest in these issues and would move the country in the right direction at least, contrary to Bernie who doesn't give a shit. The Democrat who would replace Trump would spend most of their time cleaning his mess up but doing so plus focusing on grounded, tangible issues that affect every American would bring about a successful presidency in this current state of affairs.
If the left wants to implement any of their policy plans in 2021, they not only need to win, they need to win big. Winning big requires a movement. Keep the House, retake the Senate by a sizable majority, and then make the most of that power while they have it. And I mean, Christ, the Supreme Court. RBG isn't going to live forever and we're in the critical zone right now about losing the Court for two generations. Would a Republican Senate even confirm a Democratic nominee if they take the White House in two years?

The Democratic Party is a big tent. We saw this in 2009-2010, just trying to pass Obamacare without losing a single vote which blew up the whole thing.

I wish Beto had more experience, but right now he's in the perfect position to bring together all the various liberal factions into a winning coalition. That could change as the primaries go on but man, Bernie ain't it.
 
Oct 25, 2017
8,793
Unity with people whose identity is all about not being "mainstream" is fundamentally not possible. That's the non-ideological issue underlying all of the toxicity.
Bernie's base didn't turn on him after he started stumping for Hillary. The people who would get mad and vote Green are going to do that anyway, but the rest would take it as a step forward for Bernie's ideological influence.

All he has to do is say "this is a popular front against Trump, and with me in the executive branch you know I'll be pushing against the corporations trying to influence Beto/Kamala/Joe/whoever".

Most Bernie supporters are not as far to the left as communists, and I think they'll find this an acceptable deal.

Trump is old but still 6 years younger than Bernie, thats fairly significant of a gap at that high end of the age scale. Especially when it would be Bernies first term and Trumps second. Trump being old I would not say is the new norm.
If the issue becomes such a big one that it precludes unity, then clearly enough people want the old man anyway that I don't think age matters the way it normally would.
 
Oct 25, 2017
13,997
So if Bernie does run again, is he going to once again switch to being a Democrat just for the race or is he going to actually run as an Independent this time?
 
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Cheebo
Oct 25, 2017
10,157
Ann Arbor, MI
If the issue becomes such a big one that it precludes unity, then clearly enough people want the old man anyway that I don't think age matters the way it normally would.
If Beto (or another white man) won the nomination I think making sure we do not have a ticket of two white males is more important than making sure Bernie fans are happy. As a party we can't put up 2 white men together in 2020...we just cant do that. Kamala, Gillibrand, Klobuchar, etc would be an ideal VP candidate for Beto (or Biden at that).
 
Oct 25, 2017
22,370
Bernie's base didn't turn on him after he started stumping for Hillary. The people who would get mad and vote Green are going to do that anyway, but the rest would take it as a step forward for Bernie's ideological influence.

All he has to do is say "this is a popular front against Trump, and with me in the executive branch you know I'll be pushing against the corporations trying to influence Beto/Kamala/Joe/whoever".

Most Bernie supporters are not as far to the left as communists, and I think they'll find this an acceptable deal.
But Bernie will never do that, because he will never be able to stop being who he is, a guy who constantly goes after his own allies because he thinks they're doing it wrong and that they're the "real" issue.
 
Oct 25, 2017
8,793
If Beto (or another white man) won the nomination I think making sure we do not have a ticket of two white males is more important than making sure Bernie fans are happy. As a party we can't put up 2 white men together in 2020...we just cant do that.
If Beto wins the ticket, his primary concern is going to be winning the general. My statement was in response to if Bernie supporters start to go scorched earth. If it does not seem like that will matter, I don't doubt he'd pick someone else. If it does seem like it would matter, it's a logical pick.

But Bernie will never do that, because he will never be able to stop being who he is, a guy who constantly goes after his own allies because he thinks they're doing it wrong and that they're the "real" issue.
You don't think if Hillary offered him the VP spot he wouldn't have taken it? I don't see it. He'd have surpassed Debs.
 

captive

Banned
Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,445
Houston
They’re still pondering who might run and trump has been having fucking rally’s for 2 years now.

They need to start moving on this shit.
Who gives a shit. His rallies have been diminishing attendence such that thye have to pay people to show up and he lies about how many people were there. In fact if I recall, he once said there was more people at the rally than the venue could even legally allow in.
 
Oct 26, 2017
2,321
Dallas, TX
If the left wants to implement any of their policy plans in 2021, they not only need to win, they need to win big. Winning big requires a movement. Keep the House, retake the Senate by a sizable majority, and then make the most of that power while they have it. And I mean, Christ, the Supreme Court. RBG isn't going to live forever and we're in the critical zone right now about losing the Court for two generations. Would a Republican Senate even confirm a Democratic nominee if they take the White House in two years?

The Democratic Party is a big tent. We saw this in 2009-2010, just trying to pass Obamacare without losing a single vote which blew up the whole thing.

I wish Beto had more experience, but right now he's in the perfect position to bring together all the various liberal factions into a winning coalition. That could change as the primaries go on but man, Bernie ain't it.
I think this might be overestimating what Beto can do in a primary. Beto is well positioned, but his position is due pretty much entirely due to personal charm. Sans that charm, an honest assessment is that he’s probably the rightmost of the frontrunners. And the similarities to Obama make people draw comparisons to that, where personal charm was able to smooth over Obama’s pretty obvious centrism and turn him into the candidate of the insurgent left (combined with the Iraq War politics of the time), but I think that’s a way harder trick to pull now, because the left is much more awoken to their power than they were in 2008 — they no longer feel they have to pick their preferred Democrat, but that a candidate of their own choosing can win in their own right — and Beto won’t be running against someone with as much left-wing skepticism as Hillary had. He also won’t have the reinforcements from minority voters that Obama had, since Harris and/or Booker will have a lock on that.

So basically, without that, he has to hope that Bernie doesn’t run to unite the left behind him, that he’s able to leverage his charisma and the left’s distrust around someone like Harris to rally the left to him, despite being substantively to his competitors’ right, and that that coalition is enough to beat back Harris’ minority-led coalition and not be too chipped away at by others like Gillibrand or Klobuchar or whomever else. Otherwise, Beto is just the candidate of non-leftist white Democrats, which is not a winning coalition.
 
Oct 25, 2017
22,370
You don't think if Hillary offered him the VP spot he wouldn't have taken it? I don't see it. He'd have surpassed Debs.
He would have taken it. I don't think he could play ball after taking it with the responsibilities that come with a leadership position though and it would be a headache for all involved.
 
Oct 25, 2017
8,793
What is his actual policies on race relations and helping black communities? How does he address the fact he has publicly belittled their concerns time and time again?
This site isn't actually run by Bernie but it's got a collection of various policy positions (as well as some editorializing to be fair).

http://feelthebern.org/bernie-sanders-on-black-rights/
http://feelthebern.org/bernie-sanders-on-racial-justice/

Your second question is the more problematic one for him. His policies are good. If he didn't care about issues affecting black people, I don't think Hillary supporters would have been constantly talking about how similar the two were on policies during the 2016 race but harping on that instead. Bernie's main issue is his rhetoric.
 
Oct 26, 2017
2,936
I think this might be overestimating what Beto can do in a primary. Beto is well positioned, but his position is due pretty much entirely due to personal charm. Sans that charm, an honest assessment is that he’s probably the rightmost of the frontrunners. And the similarities to Obama make people draw comparisons to that, where personal charm was able to smooth over Obama’s pretty obvious centrism and turn him into the candidate of the insurgent left (combined with the Iraq War politics of the time), but I think that’s a way harder trick to pull now, because the left is much more awoken to their power than they were in 2008 — they no longer feel they have to pick their preferred Democrat, but that a candidate of their own choosing can win in their own right — and Beto won’t be running against someone with as much left-wing skepticism as Hillary had. He also won’t have the reinforcements from minority voters that Obama had, since Harris and/or Booker will have a lock on that.

So basically, without that, he has to hope that Bernie doesn’t run to unite the left behind him, that he’s able to leverage his charisma and the left’s distrust around someone like Harris to rally the left to him, despite being substantively to his competitors’ right, and that that coalition is enough to beat back Harris’ minority-led coalition and not be too chipped away at by others like Gillibrand or Klobuchar or whomever else. Otherwise, Beto is just the candidate of non-leftist white Democrats, which is not a winning coalition.
This is complete.

Beto is a white moderate in one of the worst times, politically, that one can be a white, male moderate.
 
Oct 25, 2017
5,744
Texas
Do the people calling Beto center left live in the States? Because on the US political spectrum, you know, the only one that matters when discussing US voters, he's definitely not that. This site has a very skewed view on what "moderate" and "center" means, likely driven by an Eurocentric or more global viewpoint. There is nothing wrong with taking such a viewpoint, unless you're using it to gauge what the US population will think of a candidate.
 
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Cheebo
Oct 25, 2017
10,157
Ann Arbor, MI
This is complete.

Beto is a white moderate in one of the worst times, politically, that one can be a white, male moderate.
He and all the other non Bernie/Warren candidates are extremely similar, if not nearly identical, in their policies. Be it Kamala, Klobuchar, Gillibrand, Beto, Booker, or Biden.

Are all the non Warren/Bernie candidates moderate to you?
 
Oct 25, 2017
5,744
Texas
He and all the other non Bernie/Warren candidates are extremely similar, if not nearly identical, in their policies. Be it Kamala, Klobuchar, Gillibrand, Booker, or Biden.

Are all the non Warren/Bernie candidates moderate to you?
It's fucking baffling. I must live in bizarro world where every Democrat is European-style-left here in the States except for Beto, who is apparently as "moderate" as they come
 
Oct 26, 2017
2,936
Do the people calling Beto center left live in the States? Because on the US political spectrum, you know, the only one that matters when discussing US voters, he's definitely not that. This site has a very skewed view on what "moderate" and "center" means, likely driven by an Eurocentric or more global viewpoint. There is nothing wrong with taking such a viewpoint, unless you're using it to gauge what the US population will think of a candidate.
No, he's a moderate in the US.

https://votesmart.org/candidate/political-courage-test/78533/beto-orourke/#.XAl3AR6IY0M

He is very much pro-capitalism (except when it comes to public matters) and anti-tax raises.
 
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Cheebo
Oct 25, 2017
10,157
Ann Arbor, MI
It's fucking baffling. I must live in bizarro world where every Democrat is European-style-left here in the States except for Beto, who is apparently as "moderate" as they come
Those screaming moderate are not being logical. They ignore the fact he is pretty much identical in policy with ALLLLLL the major 2020 players outside Bernie/Warren.

Its just that Bernie fans most fear him so they will repeat moderate over and over and over and not say a peep about Kamala/Gillibrand/Klobucher/etc until they see them as a threat to Bernie.

No, he's a moderate in the US.

https://votesmart.org/candidate/political-courage-test/78533/beto-orourke/#.XAl3AR6IY0M

He is very much pro-capitalism (except when it comes to public matters) and anti-taxes.
He is absolutely not out of line in the mainstream ideology of the elected members of the party, aka the non Bernie wing.
 
Oct 26, 2017
2,936
He and all the other non Bernie/Warren candidates are extremely similar, if not nearly identical, in their policies. Be it Kamala, Klobuchar, Gillibrand, Beto, Booker, or Biden.

Are all the non Warren/Bernie candidates moderate to you?
They have records that we can compare. O'Rourke has words.

Based on his past as a Texas legislator and his words, he's a moderate.

Does that necessarily effect how he will campaign on the national platform? We'll see. I think he'll push himself even more to the left over the next two years.
 
Oct 27, 2017
1,998
I'm just curious as to what exactly Bernie and his supporters thing he'd do as President.

Bernie

1. Does not care about gun control
2. Does not care about race relations

And if he and his voters think he can get a Republican senate to pass his universal healthcare and free college proposals they're out of their minds (not that I don't want to see this but if this is all you're bringing to the table as a candidate prepare for disappointment). Best case scenario is a lame duck president who doesn't do further damage to the country. But this would certainly include an energized Republican base during the midterms thanks to a self-proclaimed socialist in office that would certainly take back the House and perhaps the majority of state offices as well.

Now am I saying that Beto is the perfect candidate for both these issues and his presidency would go without a fault? Absolutely not. But his commitment to the right to kneel during the Anthem and the message behind it plus his anti gun beliefs IN FUCKING TEXAS have me convinced that he has a genuine interest in these issues and would move the country in the right direction at least, contrary to Bernie who doesn't give a shit. The Democrat who would replace Trump would spend most of their time cleaning his mess up but doing so plus focusing on grounded, tangible issues that affect every American would bring about a successful presidency in this current state of affairs.
What is with you. If we have a Democratic president and a Republican Senate come 2020, no matter who it is. they will be a lame duck president who can only pass military spending increases.

Your number 1 is wrong really.

Beto doesn't have anti-gun beliefs... like very few in the Democratic party do. They all say the same thing about "common sense" gun laws without going into detail. Some ideas that I think needs to be instituted that can be. Personally I prefer way stricter standards and laws

- a national standard of guns
- national registry
- automatic background checks every day or week
- auto rifles ban

The issue is only 2 of the above will help against handguns. Those are the minimum we should be looking at.

What is his actual policies on race relations and helping black communities? How does he address the fact he has publicly belittled their concerns time and time again?

Medicare For All (which is not something any Dem President is getting through their first term, 60 votes in senates aint happening) is not an answer to race relations.

I still love the idea that a 79 white dude from Vermont with a history of racially tone deaf comments will be the guy black people can count
if that 60 vote threshold is still there post 2020, then we already failed no matter what candidate won. It needs to be nuked, there is no scenario where it will it not be a hindrance to even slight change. Not to mention I dont think we will have 60 in the Senate.

- Justice Department automatic investigations into all police-related deaths. This is a good building block for getting to a dedicated federal agency that can track and prosecute officers who overstep their power.

I have not seen anyone else suggest this because it's hard to suggest jailing officers.

- Getting rid of minimum sentencing for non-violent crimes

- Treat drug offenses as health issues, not like criminals.

These are 3 big issues impacting minorities I can think of right now. Now, I am not sure how far we can go on the federal level especially with a conservative court.

Other than his history of blundering a lot on racial issues.
Bernie still has huge issues with me, in that he is naively believing Republicans can be courted. He thinks we can come together across party lines (on some issues, sure) when that ship has sailed and continues to move forward.

Therefore my primary concern with him is he will not prioritize things like

- making our territories states
- increase the House of Representative and tie it to a much more stable and representative algorithm

- stack the courts, granted I dont think a single Democratic contender will do this one. Only Avenatti pointed this out. This is legit the only thing that could have got me to vote him if he ran lol.
 
Oct 25, 2017
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It's fucking baffling. I must live in bizarro world where every Democrat is European-style-left here in the States except for Beto, who is apparently as "moderate" as they come
Again, there's a certain group that now wants to sink their claws into him and eliminate him as a threat.
No, he's a moderate in the US.

https://votesmart.org/candidate/political-courage-test/78533/beto-orourke/#.XAl3AR6IY0M

He is very much pro-capitalism (except when it comes to public matters) and anti-tax raises.
I assume by "public matters" you mean social issues, which, as we all know, are much less important than economic ones even if higher wages won't prevent a gay person from being fired or a black person from being shot by police.

Also, one can favor capitalism and an expanded safety net - you know, social democracy. It's what the vast majority of the Democratic Party supports. It's what Bernard supports; it's just that he's dumb and calls it "socialism," which just confuses people, especially across generations.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,571
What were Obama's policies on race relations?
Bad.

What were Clinton's?
Even worse.

Decoupling "race relations" from the economic/class discussion is the fundamental flaw here. This is why engaging in identity politics is so harmful.
Wait, wait, wait. You are saying two things here. I agree that you can’t look at racial issues in a vacuum, you definitely have to consider economic factors and the class divide, how economic inequalities magnify and reinforce the race divide. A lot of my fellow black voters don’t subscribe to this and continue to put too much faith in the American capitalistic system that has consistently fucked them over for centuries. It’s disappointing and frustrating.

However-

You are failing to actually address the issue if you think that a “one size fits all” economic approach can somehow solve racism. I’m a leftist but I’m black, and I continue to see this blind spot on the left. If we got everything we wanted from an economic standpoint, UHC, taxpayer-funded undergrad education, increases to the minimum wage, expansion of worker benefits to bring us up to the standard of other Western countries, taxpayer-funded childcare, etc. it still wouldn’t be enough to end racism in America. Not even close. You’d need targeted solutions like drastic criminal justice reform, public school reform/redistricting, maybe even direct reparations to take a serious shot at it.

I’m disappointed to keep seeing this idea from (mostly) white progressives, who blame identity politics when the problem is really that they underestimate the tenacity of racism in the US.
 
Oct 26, 2017
2,936
Again, there's a certain group that now wants to sink their claws into him and eliminate him as a threat.

I assume by "public matters" you mean social issues, which, as we all know, are much less important than economic ones even if higher wages won't prevent a gay person from being fired or a black person from being shot by police.

Also, one can favor capitalism and an expanded safety net - you know, social democracy. It's what the vast majority of the Democratic Party supports. It's what Bernard supports; it's just that he's dumb and calls it "socialism," which just confuses people, especially across generations.
There's nothing wrong with being a moderate. "Moderate" is not a bad word. I'm not attacking O'Rourke.

I'm just saying that it's a bad time for white male moderates in America on an electability front and I was supporting the first message I quoted. It's a roadblock.