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Watchmen |OT| HBO Lost Moore's Leftovers

Coyote Zamora

alt account
Banned
Jul 19, 2019
766
Obviously we’ll have to see how this season winds up, but if acts 2 and 3 make good on the opening act I would like to see what other ideas Lindelof has for Watchmen. If he’s dead set against it though the anthology concept is a great one.

And I’m saying that seems even more gatekeeper-y and peculiarly pretentious to say. What do you mean by “get it?” That the themes and ideas the show is exploring are totally out of the grasp of everyone who hasn’t read all 12 issues? Because that’s plainly ridiculous. Also that’s not how semicolons work.
I think you not getting what i mean by getting it is some sort of meta-commentary that I'm far too bad of a typist to lay all out. The fact that you think this:

"What do you mean by “get it?” That the themes and ideas the show is exploring are totally out of the grasp of everyone who hasn’t read all 12 issues?"

is almost bad comedy. We have had multiple posters (and no, not the obvious jokers) in here thinking that Laurie is lusting after Dr. Manhattan because she has a novelty penis in her briefcase. To elaborate on that, she has a cover from her glory days back when she was 19 in there as well. She's missing not only her adventuring days as well as her time of being in a relationship with the biggest and baddest thing that ever existed. On top of that she had to come to grip with being the daughter of a hero, being a former hero, meeting her father shortly before his death after learning that she is a child of rape. You can add to that her other lover who was the exact opposite of being weak and impotent in a lot of cases and is in jail because they decided to continue adventuring and that's just background for today where she coped a plea to work for the feds catching masks who are only criminals because of her behavior in the past. Furthermore the fact that she may be exhibiting some contempt for them because they haven't the skills to be doing it in the current climate anyway. That's the depth, the nuance that is missed if you haven't read the series. That's the answers to questions that needn't be asked because you would have the understanding already.

So no, I'm not gatekeeping...plenty will watch it and enjoy it that don't read the source material and they'll miss several layers of depth and no they won't "get it". I'm sure they'll enjoy it but watch this thread you'll see the spoon feeding necessary and the explanation of themes that will be needed and the nonsensical theories.

BTW, I don't care about the semi-colons, I've rewritten posts too many times to catch my errors all the time so enjoy your own pretensions in correcting my grammar.
 

nazgul_hunter

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,534
So in rewatch I realized that the clone didn’t really go anywhere, but just stayed outside overnight. probably just outside the safe area of the castle

Cue next shot of Ozy riding a horse on a hill; with a vast arid, yet humid plains in the background.

I think Dr. Manhattan is terraforming Mars; and Veidt is in the middle of it. The planet is slowly growing more fertile, that’s why the animals, fruit, etc. but also why the nights are so cold, it’s a work in progress
 

Coyote Zamora

alt account
Banned
Jul 19, 2019
766
So in rewatch I realized that the clone didn’t really go anywhere, but just stayed outside overnight. probably just outside the safe area of the castle

Cue next shot of Ozy riding a horse on a hill; with a vast arid, yet humid plains in the background.

I think Dr. Manhattan is terraforming Mars; and Veidt is in the middle of it. The planet is slowly growing more fertile, that’s why the animals, fruit, etc. but also why the nights are so cold, it’s a work in progress
I don't think Jon is terraforming Mars, he hasn't the interest in humanity to want to do that and it's not anything he needs to survive. It's more likely that he just gave Adrian a large playground because it;s just the two of them on the planet. The constructs are freezing solid because outside of the area he lives in and where he is catapulting them to has no atmosphere and space is cold.
 

xenocide

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,683
I don't think Jon is terraforming Mars, he hasn't the interest in humanity to want to do that and it's not anything he needs to survive. It's more likely that he just gave Adrian a large playground because it;s just the two of them on the planet. The constructs are freezing solid because outside of the area he lives in and where he is catapulting them to has no atmosphere and space is cold.
That’s the initial thought, but there’s no evidence of a propellant anywhere. No rocket ship or anything. But it begs the question of why Veidt would be willing to go out hunting at night if there’s an inhospitable environment.
 

Coyote Zamora

alt account
Banned
Jul 19, 2019
766
That’s the initial thought, but there’s no evidence of a propellant anywhere. No rocket ship or anything. But it begs the question of why Veidt would be willing to go out hunting at night if there’s an inhospitable environment.
For all we know he built a damn trebuchet but we know they are wearing spacesuits with oxygen so they are definitely going into an environment without oxygen. i mean it's Dr. manhattan, he's basically God...Veidt could be on the moon or elsewhere, maybe even elsewhen.
 

Joeku

Member
Oct 26, 2017
16,300
If Veidt wants to get back to earth, the question is no longer how -- because it's catapults and homemade space suits -- but why. What does he think he can accomplish upon getting back there and how will this (and Manhattan too I guess) affect the events in Tulsa?

We just gotta wait for that.
 

xenocide

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,683
For all we know he built a damn trebuchet but we know they are wearing spacesuits with oxygen so they are definitely going into an environment without oxygen. i mean it's Dr. manhattan, he's basically God...Veidt could be on the moon or elsewhere, maybe even elsewhen.
It’s also made out of leather and medieval armor. There’s a lot of questions that need to be answered, but I imagine the explanation is going to be a lot more bizarre than anyone expects. The other point is if he used a trebuchet, how is the clone in the same spot as when Veidt walked away in the previous scene?
 

Coyote Zamora

alt account
Banned
Jul 19, 2019
766
It’s also made out of leather and medieval armor. There’s a lot of questions that need to be answered, but I imagine the explanation is going to be a lot more bizarre than anyone expects. The other point is if he used a trebuchet, how is the clone in the same spot as when Veidt walked away in the previous scene?
I feel like we're getting into minutiae here, the zone that Veidt is in may not require the caste to be equidistant from any border. It could end 10 feet behind the castle. We don't even know if what he sees exists as we see it or if it ceases to exist the moment he leaves the area Dr. Manhattan can do anything. A couple of other points:
  • If Veidt is somewhere other than Mars like the Moon then the constructs can reach space via a trebuchet.
  • Adrian likes to build terrariums and now it looks like he's one of his own.
 
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smashballTaz

Member
Oct 29, 2017
117
Yes he is. I really can't wait until Sunday. I highly recommend the official podcast too. Its a lot of fun and Lindelof is funny, informative, insightful and brutally honest, and Chernobyl's Craig Mazin is a fantastic host.
 

BDS

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,367
I love that we live in a world in which esteemed Triple Crown-winning actor Jeremy Irons is running around in a comics-accurate Ozymandias costume.
 

denx

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,824
I recommend you guys also listen to the Collider interview with Lindelof. He gives great insight into the creative proccess of this show.
 

Palette Swap

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
3,677
Listening to the podcast, I’m not surprised that The Case For Reparations was part of Lindelof’s influences at the show's inception. This is a seminal piece, btw:
 

RumbleHumble

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,244
I've been digging through the petepedia stuff and the piece: "Evidence: Four Letters" is just, wow.

I mean, I know I'm behind but that's a really significant reveal (spoiler?) tucked away in supplementary material...

It's a letter from Keene to Judd explaining the painting that gave title to the second episode. In the letter, Keene drops all the big white supremacist talking points ("Manifest Destiny", referring to indigenous as "Savages", talking about how "we" need to be cunning like them, referring to Caucasian lines as superior) while also using references to ancient Greece (allusions to Viedt/Alexander the Great) in talking about white superiority. It all but confirms both that Keene's "assassin" scene was set-up similar to Viedt's in the original Watchmen, and that Keene is a player in the same white supremacist conspiracy as Judd. It also explains why Keene wanted Blake to look at other responsible parties for Judd's assassination beyond the Seventh Cavalry.

EDIT: and looking back in the thread, it looks like this all has already been addressed. I hate getting to shows so late.
 
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xyla

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,235
Germany
Haven't seen anything of the show yet, but I love the movie (also haven't read the book yet) - is the show worth it?
 

Einchy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
27,537
Haven't seen anything of the show yet, but I love the movie (also haven't read the book yet) - is the show worth it?
Hell yeah.

Movie is similar enough to the comic where you won't miss much. I would suggest Googling the difference between the comic and movie's ending, that's the only thing that might leave you a bit confused.
 

xyla

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,235
Germany
Hell yeah.

Movie is similar enough to the comic where you won't miss much. I would suggest Googling the difference between the comic and movie's ending, that's the only thing that might leave you a bit confused.
I know about most of the differences, especially the ending.

Okay, I'll dive in then!
 

Fury451

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,546
I’m really enjoying this so far, but I keep asking myself who is this for? It’s clearly a sequel or a continuation or whatever you wanna call it of the comic story line. Like that’s extremely clear, but is that audience big enough to keep it going?

If you’re a fan of the movie you could probably also get a decent amount of enjoyment out of this but if you’re not really connected to either I’m not sure what the show offers to keep you engaged, other than constant confusion. I guess that mystery of things might be enough but there is so much in here that really only makes any kind of sense if you’re familiar with the concepts in the property, otherwise it seems like you’ve walked in on a conversation halfway through.

This just feels like a canceled series walking to me, but maybe it will be enough of a consistent hit for HBO. It’s fascinating that it exists at all though, and that it’s as good as it is. So far anyway.
 

BDS

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,367
People are misinterpreting the letter. It was written in 1955. The "Keene" and "Sheriff Crawford" mentioned in the letter are the fathers of the respective characters we know today.

I’m really enjoying this so far, but I keep asking myself who is this for? It’s clearly a sequel or a continuation or whatever you wanna call it of the comic story line. Like that’s extremely clear, but is that audience big enough to keep it going?

If you’re a fan of the movie you could probably also get a decent amount of enjoyment out of this but if you’re not really connected to either I’m not sure what the show offers to keep you engaged, other than constant confusion. I guess that mystery of things might be enough but there is so much in here that really only makes any kind of sense if you’re familiar with the concepts in the property, otherwise it seems like you’ve walked in on a conversation halfway through.

This just feels like a canceled series walking to me, but maybe it will be enough of a consistent hit for HBO. It’s fascinating that it exists at all though, and that it’s as good as it is. So far anyway.
I'm 90% sure it's only meant to be a one-season miniseries.
 

Guppeth

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,574
Sheffield, UK
I’m really enjoying this so far, but I keep asking myself who is this for? It’s clearly a sequel or a continuation or whatever you wanna call it of the comic story line. Like that’s extremely clear, but is that audience big enough to keep it going?

If you’re a fan of the movie you could probably also get a decent amount of enjoyment out of this but if you’re not really connected to either I’m not sure what the show offers to keep you engaged, other than constant confusion. I guess that mystery of things might be enough but there is so much in here that really only makes any kind of sense if you’re familiar with the concepts in the property, otherwise it seems like you’ve walked in on a conversation halfway through.
I like that it’s so uncompromising. I think people who’ve only seen the movie will be fine. The squid stuff is new to them but that’s about it.

It’s a sequel. I don’t want them to waste time going over the original plot when both the movie and comic are easily accessible.
 

DanGo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,901
I can’t help but think Lindelof is hedging and just giving himself an out in case fans/audiences hate what he’s done at the end of this. We’ll see.
 

Con_Smith

Member
Oct 27, 2017
493
I’m really enjoying this so far, but I keep asking myself who is this for? It’s clearly a sequel or a continuation or whatever you wanna call it of the comic story line. Like that’s extremely clear, but is that audience big enough to keep it going?

If you’re a fan of the movie you could probably also get a decent amount of enjoyment out of this but if you’re not really connected to either I’m not sure what the show offers to keep you engaged, other than constant confusion. I guess that mystery of things might be enough but there is so much in here that really only makes any kind of sense if you’re familiar with the concepts in the property, otherwise it seems like you’ve walked in on a conversation halfway through.

This just feels like a canceled series walking to me, but maybe it will be enough of a consistent hit for HBO. It’s fascinating that it exists at all though, and that it’s as good as it is. So far anyway.
It's for me because it is actually exploring themes and stories from an existing work I enjoyed in a format I enjoyed with interesting and no overt hand holding on the narrative. As for people not connected with the source I have a few friends who have either movie or no knowledge of the material who are in love with the series so far and while they do get lost I fill them in or share/watch youtube explainers that gets them relatively up to speed. Even convinced my home girl to purchase her first graphic novel off the strength.

It probably feels like a canceled series because from all reports this is a contained one that for the most part can end at the season finale as far as Lindelof has said.
 

abrack

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
1,113
DFW
I've been digging through the petepedia stuff and the piece: "Evidence: Four Letters" is just, wow.

I mean, I know I'm behind but that's a really significant reveal (spoiler?) tucked away in supplementary material...

It's a letter from Keene to Judd explaining the painting that gave title to the second episode. In the letter, Keene drops all the big white supremacist talking points ("Manifest Destiny", referring to indigenous as "Savages", talking about how "we" need to be cunning like them, referring to Caucasian lines as superior) while also using references to ancient Greece (allusions to Viedt/Alexander the Great) in talking about white superiority. It all but confirms both that Keene's "assassin" scene was set-up similar to Viedt's in the original Watchmen, and that Keene is a player in the same white supremacist conspiracy as Judd. It also explains why Keene wanted Blake to look at other responsible parties for Judd's assassination beyond the Seventh Cavalry.

EDIT: and looking back in the thread, it looks like this all has already been addressed. I hate getting to shows so late.
I feel like a lot of people have said something like this about the letter... but it's dated 1955. I don't think it can be the same characters we know in the show.
 

kai3345

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,456
started re-reading the comic for the first time in probably a decade. god it's so good. there's this like motion, or momentum to the art that makes it feel like you're watching a movie unfold in front of you
 

Blader

Member
Oct 27, 2017
11,396
That I didn’t realize then, I May have been totally oblivious to them promoting it as a mini series or limited series or something, I just assumed it would be left open ended to continue on
It's not being promoted as a mini or limited series, because it technically isn't one (it's listed in HBO Go as "season 1") but Lindelof has also said that the show was written as a self-contained season and not as the beginning of a multi-year show. Doesn't mean there couldn't also be a season 2, 3, etc. and he has said that's a possibility, but that any additional seasons weren't part of the initial plan.
 

CesareNorrez

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,383
I can’t help but think Lindelof is hedging and just giving himself an out in case fans/audiences hate what he’s done at the end of this. We’ll see.
He has said more Watchmen will depend on reception. He’s not totally closed to doing more, just that if he did more, it would be an all new story. And he’s not sure if he’ll have anything. But if people are very positive, he might think about it. And as has been mentioned he’s happy if someone else takes over too.
 

bigstef71

Member
Jul 5, 2018
390
Chicago
So shit Lindelof only has one season planned for this show? That's a bummer lol. At least that means it will be quality over quantity. So the ratings don't really matter then I guess
 

wenis

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,710
Vol.1 of the Watchmen soundtrack came in and it's based around a band that breaks up because white supremacists co-opt their music in the universe of the show/book

I took photos of the 4 page story insert of the vinyl if anyone cares to read them: Dropbox






the vinyl is now unfortunately sold out, dunno how limited these things are gunna be but im glad I snagged pre-orders of all three before it happened.
 

RDreamer

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,748
So shit Lindelof only has one season planned for this show? That's a bummer lol. At least that means it will be quality over quantity. So the ratings don't really matter then I guess
He does talk about this a bit in the podcast. When things started they put down a lot of words to describe Watchmen so if they hit those points then this would feel like Watchmen. Two of those words were “original” and “self-contained.”

So they were striving to make it like the comics. It told a story and was largely finished. Maybe some interesting threads that could be explored later but the main thrust and mysteries were solved and done.