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milamber182

Member
Dec 15, 2017
7,733
Australia
I'm rereading the comic atm and just read Jon's TV interview and subsequent yeeting himself to Mars.

Him being taken by surprise at the cancer stuff was really jarring considering how he was written in the last episode. Am I supposed to believe that he knew that interview was coming and therefore knew about Janey having cancer and just pretends to not know because thats... how things are supposed to go? I dunno man.

I haven't read the comics, only seen the show and movie so this is my personal understanding:

He's surprised because that's the first time he finds out Janey. Same as when he realizes the moment he fell in love with Angela. All those moments play out like they would for anyone, except that Manhattan has the ability to see simultaneous playback of every moment in his life like a giant screen (or panel) displaying multiple memories.

Or he just acts surprised to put other at ease but that would imply that's he's being more than just an observer. Someone with superior Watchmen knowledge might know Moore's intent with the character.
 

Deleted member 9317

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
9,451
New York
I loved the scene of Veidt and Manhattan.

Getting to see Veidt with that creeping doubt that deep down he murdered millions of people for no damn reason is absolutely glorious.
It was a great scene, and one of the few genuine moments that felt like it belonged in the original graphic novel. Veidt sitting in front of his monitors with broken screens and defective controller. It's as if he never left Antarctica after Manhattan told him "Nothing ever ends".
 
Nov 8, 2017
13,111
His ability to say something will come into play later or be important does not change his predestination to do those things.

I'm kind of in disbelief how difficult this concept is for so many people here.

We know it's predestined, that's in the text of the show. That doesn't change anything - why is Doctor Manhattan sometimes predestined to use his future knowledge to his advantage, but other times not? In both cases he has equal information about the future, but sometimes he can act on it (when predetermined to) and other times he cannot (when not predetermined to).

The answer is... because the writer says so, there's no principle governing why future knowledge impact past states in some cases, but not others.
 

Lotus

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
105,921
I'm rereading the comic atm and just read Jon's TV interview and subsequent yeeting himself to Mars.

Him being taken by surprise at the cancer stuff was really jarring considering how he was written in the last episode. Am I supposed to believe that he knew that interview was coming and therefore knew about Janey having cancer and just pretends to not know because thats... how things are supposed to go? I dunno man.

I mean he does similar stuff in the latest episode. He straight up says he knows about what happened to Angela's parents, and yet when she finally tells him herself, he still shows some surprise, reacting as if this is the first time he's been told this. Or the way he realizes that he has that moment where he fell in love with Angela.

I'm making my way through the comic myself and nothing in this episode felt contradictory to me.
 

Dmax3901

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,899
I mean he does similar stuff in the latest episode. He straight up says he knows about what happened to Angela's parents, and yet when she finally tells him herself, he still shows some surprise, reacting as if this is the first time he's been told this. Or the way he realizes that he has that moment where he fell in love with Angela.

I'm making my way through the comic myself and nothing in this episode felt contradictory to me.
Yeah I know, I guess it's just hard to wrap my head around.
 

VaporSnake

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,603
I'm rereading the comic atm and just read Jon's TV interview and subsequent yeeting himself to Mars.

Him being taken by surprise at the cancer stuff was really jarring considering how he was written in the last episode. Am I supposed to believe that he knew that interview was coming and therefore knew about Janey having cancer and just pretends to not know because thats... how things are supposed to go? I dunno man.
That's the way Manhattan works, he's fated to be surprised even though he saw it coming before the bend, he can't change the future because as he sees it, it's already happened. it's shown in the episode as well.

As for why he wouldn't just "see" the future explanation that Veidt himself gave Janey cancer and engineered his emotional reaction, Veidt's tachyon countermeasures blocked Manhattans perception of time so that he couldn't see anything beyond the Squid attack, Manhattan just assumed the "black" he saw approaching was nuclear armageddon and not Adrian playing 4D chess to block his precognition.
 
Oct 25, 2017
11,953
Houston
This is definitively how time works in Watchmen. It's also how it works in other stuff like Interstellar, Slaughterhouse-Five, a ton of other fiction, and, I'm pretty sure as far as science can tells us, the real world.

Here's a person, on a Monday at, let's say, 12:01 am. In bed, asleep.

F1w3lKL.png


Here's that person through the rest of the week at 12:01 am. Tuesday, up working late. Wednesday, on the couch watching a movie. Thursday, going through the fridge for a snack. Friday, out at the bar.

jhYhuPY.png


Here's that person at noon throughout the week. Monday, in the office working. Tuesday, across the street eating lunch. Wednesday, at the doctor's office. Thursday, in the bathroom, Friday, sleeping in.

GlJE1qg.png


You plot these points and every single point in between, all of which are the facts of a persons existence at that given moment, and you have a person's path through space-time.

Hvis1qJ.png


Taken from the moment they're born until the moment they die, you have the entire person's existence mapped in a blob whose shape/form is defined by the things that person did(does/will do). Call it their Space-Time Existence Blob.

pxcmomH.png


As far as we know, these blobs are, have always been, and will always be fully formed. There isn't an objective timestamp for what moment the universe is at. The past, present, and future exist simultaneously at different points in space-time, the same way that Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, and Friday co-exist on the graph.

We can't see our blobs. We can only see the infinitesimally small slice of moment we call "the present". Dr. Manhattan, on the other hand, can see his, and the shape of his Space-Time Existence Blob is even informed by the fact that he can see it, but he's every bit as equally powerless to change it as us. Because there isn't a difference between the future, past, or present. They're all simultaneous points in his STEB. As someone who is constantly aware of every single one these points, Dr. Manhattan is a hodgepodge of what we consider the past, present, and future, but that doesn't give him any special power over the shape of space-time. The structure of time is fully formed.

Changing the future is literally the exact same thing as changing the past. It's changing the shape of your unchangeable blob. In the case of the tachyon cannon, Manhattan only knows about it because it happened, and if he stopped it from happening, it wouldn't have happened, so he wouldn't have known about it to stop it. That'd be an actual paradox, as opposed to the idea that violating linear time is a paradox, when time really isn't linear at all. It's a fully formed 'blob' that's been there since (to have a generous cushion) a few seconds after the big bang. You might as well ask Jon to get the fuck up off the pool and go blow the head off baby Keane in his cradle instead of the 7K in the front yard. It is literally the same thing.
jon is such a terrible god he's not even in the 5th dimension

I'm rereading the comic atm and just read Jon's TV interview and subsequent yeeting himself to Mars.

Him being taken by surprise at the cancer stuff was really jarring considering how he was written in the last episode. Am I supposed to believe that he knew that interview was coming and therefore knew about Janey having cancer and just pretends to not know because thats... how things are supposed to go? I dunno man.
he has the ability to know everything that has and will happen to him but he doesn't remember literally everything that has and will happen to him at all times. So if he's not focusing on anything he won't remember he knew it already until he knows it again
 

Dmax3901

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,899
jon is such a terrible god he's not even in the 5th dimension


he has the ability to know everything that has and will happen to him but he doesn't remember literally everything that has and will happen to him at all times. So if he's not focusing on anything he won't remember he knew it already until he knows it again
Mm. After reading Chapter IV I get it more now. I think it took his depiction in the TV show for me to realise he's literally experiencing all the different times at the same time, rather than just "watching" them.
 
Oct 25, 2017
6,460
The only thing that's bothered me, and maybe I'm missing something, is the seemingly pointless cruelty of Abar's grandma dying after her introduction.
 

Hokahey

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
2,288
We know it's predestined, that's in the text of the show. That doesn't change anything - why is Doctor Manhattan sometimes predestined to use his future knowledge to his advantage, but other times not? In both cases he has equal information about the future, but sometimes he can act on it (when predetermined to) and other times he cannot (when not predetermined to).

The answer is... because the writer says so, there's no principle governing why future knowledge impact past states in some cases, but not others.

No. He never acts on it. Talking about it is not acting on it.
 

NiallGGlynn

Member
Apr 16, 2019
509
My understanding is that during the events of Watchmen (the comic) Manhattan's ability to see the future was stunted by Vedit's tachyons?
 

Blader

Member
Oct 27, 2017
26,620
The only thing that's bothered me, and maybe I'm missing something, is the seemingly pointless cruelty of Abar's grandma dying after her introduction.
I guess the point was to strike a balance between Angela needing to learn that her family is from Tulsa while still growing up alone in Vietnam until she meets Jon.
 

VeryHighlander

The Fallen
May 9, 2018
6,387
I'm rereading the comic atm and just read Jon's TV interview and subsequent yeeting himself to Mars.

Him being taken by surprise at the cancer stuff was really jarring considering how he was written in the last episode. Am I supposed to believe that he knew that interview was coming and therefore knew about Janey having cancer and just pretends to not know because thats... how things are supposed to go? I dunno man.
Jon wasn't able to see the future clearly in the comics because of the tachyonic particles. And even if he "knows" there is still a point in time where he has to find out in the first place.
 

litebrite

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
21,832
The only thing that's bothered me, and maybe I'm missing something, is the seemingly pointless cruelty of Abar's grandma dying after her introduction.
She suffered a heart attack. Genetic trauma. African American men and women are likely to suffer from high blood pressure due to our history. A black nurse had to warn me in College when I went into the infirmary and she took my blood pressure because I suffered from high blood pressure.
 

Ploid 6.0

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,440
A podcast with the director talking about how it started, why he finally agreed to do it, and the process he took to make sure it was done respectfully.

@ 32:26
"So I would pitch, for like 10 minutes, and see how it played. The people who were basically like, "that's the greatest thing I have ever heard, sign me up," I did not hire. And the people who were like, "there's some really good stuff in there, but I have questions and concerns," I hired. That's an oversimplification, but also mostly entirely accurate.​
I think one of the big challenges for me at this point, I'm 46, this is my third show, is finding people who will tell me I'm an idiot, because I'm an idiot. It doesn't mean that I'm not only an idiot, I have to acknowledge that I'm talented enough to have gotten here, and I do have good ideas, but I also have really bad ideas. The problem is I can't tell the difference. If I get to the point I'm on the air and the critics tell me then I didn't hire a good room. "​

 
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AbsoluteZero0K

Alt Account
Banned
Dec 6, 2019
1,570
The only thing that I dislike about this show is that I'll have to go back and watch episodes 1-3ish, knowing what I know now, so that those episodes make sense.

Feel like we have the puzzle pieces now.
 

TheFatOne

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,925
A podcast with the director talking about how it started, why he finally agreed to do it, and the process he took to make sure it was done respectfully.

@ 32:26
"So I would pitch, for like 10 minutes, and see how it played. The people who were basically like, "that's the greatest thing I have ever heard, sign me up," I did not hire. And the people who were like, "there's some really good stuff in there, but I have questions and concerns," I hired. That's an oversimplification, but also mostly entirely accurate.​
I think one of the big challenges for me at this point, I'm 46, this is my third show, is finding people who will tell me I'm an idiot, because I'm an idiot. It doesn't mean that I'm not only an idiot, I have to acknowledge that I'm talented enough to have gotten here, and I do have good ideas, but I also have really bad ideas. The problem is I can't tell the difference. If I get to the point I'm on the air and the critics tell me then I didn't hire a good room. "​

He made a statement about how you don't get to bitch and complain about his ambiguous endings in the video. Going to start preparing myself for a terrible ending now. That way I won't be disappointed on Sunday.
 

RDreamer

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,106
Wait...is it confirmed to be a 1 season show?
Currently yes.

As far as right now Lindelof has no plans for another season and it's not renewed or anything like that. For all anyone knows they could get another season with another show runner or Lindelof could sign on again or this could be it.

He said when they started out in the writer's room for the show they jotted down words that they thought described and encompassed Watchmen. One was "self-contained," so he strived to make sure this would work as a single season story, like the book.
 

Cass_Se

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,126
I've caught up on the series before the finale due to all the positive opinions I've been hearing from different groups and just... how is it so good? Why? Do I need to watch The Leftovers? Because this legitimately shouldn't be that good. But it is. I'm so excited for how the season will end and that sheer excitement over a TV series is something I have not felt in a long time.
 

skeezx

Member
Oct 27, 2017
20,173
I've caught up on the series before the finale due to all the positive opinions I've been hearing from different groups and just... how is it so good? Why? Do I need to watch The Leftovers? Because this legitimately shouldn't be that good. But it is. I'm so excited for how the season will end and that sheer excitement over a TV series is something I have not felt in a long time.

it's a completely different thing but yeah you should probably check out leftovers. opinions vary, season 2 is the only unanimously "amazing" season, but probably a net positive checking it out
 

AbsoluteZero0K

Alt Account
Banned
Dec 6, 2019
1,570
She suffered a heart attack. Genetic trauma. African American men and women are likely to suffer from high blood pressure due to our history. A black nurse had to warn me in College when I went into the infirmary and she took my blood pressure because I suffered from high blood pressure.

I recently called my bio-dad after...not wanting to return his calls for a year. High blood pressure runs in the family, he wanted to tell me. Also, that I'm Caribbean AF.

Maybe I'll embrace those parts of me in the 2nd half of my life. But yeah, collective consciousness is a mofo.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,065
I love how the premise of this show is "Doctor Manhattan fucks up some white supremacists"—the greatest hook ever—but you can't tell anyone because it's a spoiler for over two thirds of the way in.

I've caught up on the series before the finale due to all the positive opinions I've been hearing from different groups and just... how is it so good? Why? Do I need to watch The Leftovers? Because this legitimately shouldn't be that good. But it is. I'm so excited for how the season will end and that sheer excitement over a TV series is something I have not felt in a long time.

The Leftovers is worth watching for Carrie Coon alone. Each season is quite similar to Watchmen in structure (ongoing narrative but told in a somewhat fractured way). It has the same detailed world building and visually everything resonates well with the themes. It's arguable whether the show ever gives the appropriate depth to those themes, but then again I think Watchmen is the same with only episode 6 going as deep into systemic racism as its visuals and plot require. It's also a bit uneven but again I think Watchmen has only been great in half the episodes so far, with 2-5 being a real mixed bag--some great ideas with some very corny plotting (Mirror Guy ep being the low point). Leftovers season one is the most uneven but it hits a wonderful crescendo. Season 2 is great almost from start to finish (although I guessed the big twist which dampened its impact for me). Season 3 feels a little rushed but is mostly great.

I'd definitely watch it. If nothing else, the narrative is always compelling. And those moments which are great really stay with you long after the show is over. There's a scene in the final episode especially which has an affective impact every time I think about it--even though it's the most random moment.
 
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Kain

Unshakable Resolve - One Winged Slayer
The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
7,604
I'm rewatching the movie and Jeremy Irons is such a great choice for old Ozy. Kudos to the casting team for the show (and the movie too, actually)
 
Oct 2, 2018
3,902
the scene with dr Manhattan fighting and then standing to monologue and then getting captured just seeemed stupid. He can't take out 20 men but can take out all of vietnam?

this episode was the most problematic for me
 

litebrite

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
21,832
the scene with dr Manhattan fighting and then standing to monologue and then getting captured just seeemed stupid. He can't take out 20 men but can take out all of vietnam?

this episode was the most problematic for me
He didn't monologue and the person that shot him wasn't visible when he turned around to face the women he loved.
 

rude

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,812
I've caught up on the series before the finale due to all the positive opinions I've been hearing from different groups and just... how is it so good? Why? Do I need to watch The Leftovers? Because this legitimately shouldn't be that good. But it is. I'm so excited for how the season will end and that sheer excitement over a TV series is something I have not felt in a long time.
Some people say the first season of The Leftovers is bad and that the show doesn't get good until Season 2. I personally disagree. It's more like the show barely has a plot and is kind of just stagnant until the middle of Season 1. After episode 4, the rest of the series is consistently excellent. I think it's the most moving work of televised fiction I've ever seen.

Definitely worth a watch, but just know that it isn't like Lost or Watchmen outside of its use of occasionally heavy handed symbolism.