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Dodgerfan74

Member
Dec 27, 2017
2,696
Bout as much as you deserve those free updates. Tell me why is having the option to purchase items directly in addition to loot boxes so terrible?

No one ever bothers to even argue against direct purchases. It's always the same comically disingenuous argument.

"If you don't let game makers peddle their wares in this exploitative and obtuse way, the industry will definitely die because reasons!"
 

Breqesk

Member
Oct 28, 2017
5,230
I'm not saying they encourage anything. I'm just saying that if you're spending thousands of dollars you can't afford to get a completely cosmetic upgrade, you're not enjoying them responsibly. Thankfully most people don't do this.

And no, it's still a stupid analogy because I can still play Overwatch and get the full experience without spending a dime on boxes. The situation you're describing only compares to Overwatch, if Overwatch itself, or some of the game modes, were only attainable through a loot box. Which, even you can agree, is really, really stupid.

Right, but people with addictive personalities very specifically cannot do this, and attempting to dismiss such people as unimportant - while defending predatory corporate practices that are deliberately engineered to prey on the vulnerable, introduced into a form of entertainment that was formerly 'safe' for such people - is, I would argue, a remarkably selfish attitude to take towards the situation.

I mean, seriously, earlier you essentially wrote, 'Eh, lotta people use suicide hotlines, so what?'
 

BigJeffery

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
2,338
Then why are pro lootbox people so hell bent on rejecting any criticism or suggested change to the system?

Because the anti-lootbox people just seem to completely ignore the benefits of the system.

But you get that funding on the backs of gambling addicts. Much of the money that's being gotten from whales are from people that are genetically predisposed to gambling addictions.

I mean, if game disks contained lead or something and was hurting consumers, that would be bad enough. But the damage inflicted here isn't incidental, accidental, or even in theory divorced from the way the system works. The system hurts people by design. If it ever stopped hurting people, it would stop functioning. Addicts are the ones willing to drop that kind of cash.

It was calls to the suicide hotline and and trips to rehab that bought your Junkertowns and Moiras. Was it worth it?

[Citation Needed]

Please show me anything that proves that most of the money lootboxes generates comes from people with gambling addictions.

To your second point, not everything should be designed to the benefit of the lowest common denominator.

Right, but people with addictive personalities very specifically cannot do this, and attempting to dismiss such people as unimportant - while defending predatory corporate practices that are deliberately engineered to prey on the vulnerable, introduced into a form of entertainment that was formerly 'safe' for such people - is, I would argue, a remarkably selfish attitude to take towards the situation.

I mean, seriously, earlier you essentially wrote, 'Eh, lotta people use suicide hotlines, so what?'

I don't see how it's any more selfish than also not wanting to get rid of Casinos, liquor stores and fast food joints.
 

semiconscious

Banned
Nov 10, 2017
2,140
The people I spoke to by-and-large described their spending on loot boxes as impulsive, shameful, and stress-inducing. The urge to buy loot boxes and try to get epic gear was driven by limited events and peer pressure. One respondent reported accruing several thousands of dollars in debt playing Neverwinter Online. A player who spent hundreds on loot boxes told me they were egged on by "the slow reveal, the soft glow, the visuals of the loot exploding out of the top of the box, the couple of frames where the light turns gold," and the kinds of presentation elements that are baked in to continue the allure.

i don't know. unless this individual is like at least pre-teen, one has to ask: at what point do people need to accept responsibility? because the idea that a piece of computer animation, no matter how 'soft' the 'glow', is just that overwhelmingly/irresistibly seductive to an older teen or adult is pretty far-fetched, imo :) ...
 
Oct 25, 2017
398
Ignoring the fact that there's value in having some skins be rare, Lootboxes make much more money than just regular micro-transactions.
That depends entierly on how you do regular microtransactions. Also, there are no numbers that I know of supporting that claim. Feel free to share if you know of any. The reason you have a chance to win a "rare" skin, is because someone else has already paid for you by losing a bunch of money on "common" skins. That's how gambling works. A few winners and a whole lot of losers.
 

Kid Night

Member
Oct 27, 2017
475
I don't think Toaster was trying to make a point about those old arcade games as much as dispelling the counterproductive "back in the good old days, things weren't like this" argument.
But back in the day, things weren't like this. That's the false equivalency.

When you bought a copy of Street Fighter for the Super Nintendo, I did not have to pay $7.50 to unlock Chun Li. To get a different color, I hit a different button when I selected her.

Arcade game =/= games you purchased. We are talking about games you purchase, like Overwatch.
And the majority of popular shooters used to have literally nothing in common with slot machines.

Things are different now when it comes to games you have purchased.
 

Amibguous Cad

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,033
Because the anti-lootbox people just seem to completely ignore the benefits of the system.



[Citation Needed]

Please show me anything that proves that most of the money lootboxes generates comes from people with gambling addictions.

To your second point, not everything should be designed to the benefit of the lowest common denominator.

Just to make absolutely sure,

Suppose there was a gaming product that did contain lead (a controller, maybe). This doesn't hurt the vast majority of people that use the product, but some appreciable fraction of 1% of people wind up paralyzed from the waist down. Do you believe that the problem shouldn't be fixed because there's no point in catering to the "least common denominator," i.e. the people who get hurt by the product?

i don't know. unless this individual is like at least pre-pubic, one has to ask: at what point do people need to accept responsibility? because the idea that a piece of computer animation, no matter how 'soft' the 'glow', is just that overwhelmingly/irresistibly seductive to an older teen or adult is pretty far-fetched, imo :) ...

I think the point where you take responsibility is the point where you've designed a system designed to wring as much money as possible out of gambling addicts.
 

BigJeffery

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
2,338
That depends entierly on how you do regular microtransactions. Also, there are no numbers that I know of supporting that claim. Feel free to share if you know of any. The reason you have a chance to win a "rare" skin, is because someone else has already paid for you by losing a bunch of money on "common" skins. That's how gambling works. A few winners and a whole lot of losers.

Obviously there's no way to tell how much money OW would have made by selling their skins versus putting them in lootboxes, but have a look at this data and tell me what the top 3 games have in common:

https://www.resetera.com/threads/su...-games-by-revenue-in-2017.19869/#post-3944672
 

K Samedi

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,990
I have posted many times on this topic already so forgive me if I repeat myself way too often on topics like microtransactions but its as scammy a business practice can get. The real problem is statistics. When you can analyze a huge playerbase on behaviour with an algorithm, its very easy to experiment on them. It also becomes very easy to hunt whales and max out your business by exploiting weaknesses. Its all a percentage game. Did you guys not read all the patents about exploiting people and tricking them into buying loot boxes? The people that defend this stuff really dont understand the inplications of this in the long run and I mean no disrespect to people who defend it. I just think they dont understand how bad this stuff is for the economy in general.
 
Oct 25, 2017
398
Obviously there's no way to tell how much money OW would have made by selling their skins versus putting them in lootboxes, but have a look at this data and tell me what the top 3 games have in common:

https://www.resetera.com/threads/su...-games-by-revenue-in-2017.19869/#post-3944672
They are the three most currently popular games. There's nothing supporting the statement that lootboxes make more money since developers never share numbers.
 

BigJeffery

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
2,338
Just to make absolutely sure,

Suppose there was a gaming product that did contain lead (a controller, maybe). This doesn't hurt the vast majority of people that use the product, but some appreciable fraction of 1% of people wind up paralyzed from the waist down. Do you believe that the problem shouldn't be fixed because there's no point in catering to the "least common denominator," i.e. the people who get hurt by the product?

Just moving forward in this thread, can we all refrain from arguing with analogies. Nobody has been able to come up with one even close to being salient to the topic at hand.

To respond to this anyway:

What you are describing is basically a food allergy, and nobody is arguing that companies be mandated to make versions of their foods that everyone can eat.

They are the three most currently popular games. There's nothing supporting the statement that lootboxes make more money since developers never share numbers.

And what does the fact that the three most popular games have lootboxes tell you?

Obviously we can't draw any sort of scientific conclusion from it, but I'd hazard a guess that it indicates that most people are indifferent to loot boxes, or like loot boxes.
 

Principate

Member
Oct 31, 2017
11,186
Oct 27, 2017
6,960
According to Blizzard, Overwatch has over 35 Million Players in October.

http://www.pcgamer.com/overwatch-breaks-35-million-player-mark/

35 Million x $40, is $1.4 Billion. Companies hide their total sales numbers. Some payed $60, some payed $40. That's numbers before it's $20 sale over the holiday last year.

Off the top of my head I can think of a few games who have had pretty amazing post launch support without extra monetization:

Shovel Knight
Towerfall
Splatoon
Splatoon 2
Team Fortress Classic
Quake 1
Quake 2
Quake 3
Diablo 2
Starcraft
Starcraft 2
ARMS
DOTA (1)

It's not apples to oranges though, Overwatch released in a pretty content light state. I'm pretty sure it will take Overwatch 10 years to have as many characters and modes as games like TimeSplitters or Mortal Kombat: Annihilation did when they launched.

There is so much wrong with your post, jesus...

35m players don't equal to the 35m sales. There were many free weekends during two years.
OW has been on sale multiple times before last Holiday's weekends.
OW costs less in Asian regions.
Blizzard doesn't own perpetual content support based on the number of copies sold or the revenue generated.

Holy hell, take off your double rose-tinted glasses and look what kind of blocks of BSP shit Quake got as the "post-launch" support. The value of that content is peanuts compared to the value of COD map packs, Battlefield expansions, Siege or OW updates. It doesn't help that Quake was replaced one year later, so here goes your "amazing" support. Arms had the total of 6 months support...

Shovel Knight, Diablo, SC1 and SC2 had monetization in the forms of DLC and Expansions. SC2 even has the microtransaction shop nowdays.

And are you seriously complaining about Overwatch's content as "light", it bulldozes Arms or Splatoon in both base-content and post launch support. Quality over quantity, this is why people play Overwatch, one character in OW is not even remotely equal to one character in Mortal Kombat.

One thing is to discuss whether OW's monetization is excessive, another thing is to compare OW support with Splatoon or Quake... You need a reality check.
 

Deleted member 3853

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
801
There are ways to provide funding that are fair and not nefarious. The reason for it being random loot boxes is because it makes people spend more than they want, thus it's a predatory practice. People paying more than they can afford and being harmed isn't really the strongest reason I'd gladly see lootboxes being outright illegal. It's because it is detrimental to the gaming industry in the long run. I want developers to make games that make them money because they're good, not because they can manipulate people to spend money they can't afford.

They also make more money because the item is more personal if you open it rather than go to the store and just pick it up. The feeling that you have something rare. If they just sold them straight up then less people would care and it'd generate less money making them care less about the community and future of the game.

How is it detrimental to the gaming industry?

Being "good" alone doesn't cut it. CSGO, PUBG, and OW are great games that sold very well but the post launch support isn't free especially when you start trying to include a pro scene and all the costs that includes.

How do you know people can't afford the money they're spending? Sure, you can grab a couple examples of people who were obsessed with trying to open a knife and fucked their lives but I'd guess most people just spend $5 here, $10 there hoping they get something good and if not they regret wasting a few bucks and move on lol. Certainly nowhere near as damaging as video game addiction.
 

Dodgerfan74

Member
Dec 27, 2017
2,696
Because the anti-lootbox people just seem to completely ignore the benefits of the system.

[Citation Needed]

Please show me anything that proves that most of the money lootboxes generates comes from people with gambling addictions.

To your second point, not everything should be designed to the benefit of the lowest common denominator.

I don't see how it's any more selfish than also not wanting to get rid of Casinos, liquor stores and fast food joints.

That time when you're defending corporate practices by describing people vulnerable to exploitative business practices as the "lowest common denominator."
 
Oct 25, 2017
398
And what does the fact that the three most popular games have lootboxes tell you?

Obviously we can't draw any sort of scientific conclusion from it, but I'd hazard a guess that it indicates that most people are indifferent to loot boxes, or like loot boxes.
It tells me that since they are popular games, people will still play them no matter how predatory the developers are on the players.

You DO realize you are arguing for a position that's worse for you and every gamer in the long run?
 

BigJeffery

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
2,338
It tells me that since they are popular games, people will still play them no matter how predatory the developers are on the players.

You DO realize you are arguing for a position that's worse for you and every gamer in the long run?

Again, people keep saying that, but my experience with Overwatch for the past two years has really proved otherwise.

Because Casino's are you know regulated. Quite strictly in fact by most countries.

That hasn't stopped people from ruining their lives with gambling.

I have nothing against regulating loot boxes. In fact, it should absolutely be required that any game with a lootbox system copies the way OW does it exactly.
 
Oct 25, 2017
398
How do you know people can't afford the money they're spending? Sure, you can grab a couple examples of people who were obsessed with trying to open a knife and fucked their lives but I'd guess most people just spend $5 here, $10 there hoping they get something good and if not they regret wasting a few bucks and move on lol. Certainly nowhere near as damaging as video game addiction.
Ok if we put it like this - rather than what people can afford, let's call it "get value for the money". Again, people spending a couple of bucks here and there isn't a problem. The problem is that for every "win" someone gets, a whole lot of people "lose" and don't get value for the money. That's how gambling works. Some people can't handle that situation and overspend vastly because of the addictive and manipulative way it's incoporated in games.
 

Lemstar

Member
Oct 25, 2017
738
It tells me that since they are popular games, people will still play them no matter how predatory the developers are on the players.
I don't understand why everyone arguing against microtransactions is oblivious to the possibility that the causation goes the other way - that microtransactions promote player engagement.

It's a pretty common tactic to demean the vulnerable by acting as if everything happening to them is their fault.
Yet somehow, when people are talking about issues like food addiction, it's kosher to talk about personal responsibility and not just blame big food.
 

Hasseigaku

Member
Oct 30, 2017
3,541
Ok if we put it like this - rather than what people can afford, let's call it "get value for the money". Again, people spending a couple of bucks here and there isn't a problem. The problem is that for every "win" someone gets, a whole lot of people "lose" and don't get value for the money. That's how gambling works. Some people can't handle that situation and overspend vastly because of the addictive and manipulative way it's incoporated in games.

See it's even better for the publishers than it is for casinos because even if you "win", they lose no money. So they give you casino-like odds of winning something good while taking none of the risks of losing money that casinos have.
 
Oct 25, 2017
398
I don't understand why everyone arguing against microtransactions is oblivious to the possibility that the causation goes the other way - that microtransactions promote player engagement.
No one is arguing against microtransactions as far as I can tell. Only that loot boxes bring more negative effects than positive effects.
 

Amibguous Cad

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,033
What you are describing is basically a food allergy, and nobody is arguing that companies be mandated to make versions of their foods that everyone can eat.

Not... really. My point is that this is a very common paradigm in regulating potentially dangerous products. There's something that might affect most people, though in fact less than 1% of people actually do experience it. But they're pretty significant harms to the people affected, so regulation to stop it is common. Most people who live in a home with lead paint never get lead poisoning. A defective airbag only actually injures a very small number of people; only people who get into an accident using it, only in accidents where the airbag would make a difference, and only in accidents where the defect causes the airbag to malfunction.

The Takata Airbag Recall, for example, affected over 30 million cars, and the number of fatalities resulting from the defect was certainly no more than a 4-digit number. But that's a really high number of fatalities! An unacceptable one. So the government forced a recall to fix them.

You keep pointing out that the number of people affected by this is a small number. And that's true enough, but once you get past the implicit ableism of blaming addicts for their condition, what you're left with is a business practice that hurts a small number of people very badly. So yeah, pretty similar to lead or any other environmental contamination. We regulate that kind of thing all the time.

EDIT: I'm glad to hear that you're in favor of regulation, but the most obvious form of regulation is to prohibit minors from purchasing or playing games with loot boxes in them. That's what we do with gambling, after all. I'm guessing you wouldn't be in favor of that, but maybe I'm wrong.
 
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Lemstar

Member
Oct 25, 2017
738
No one is arguing against microtransactions as far as I can tell. Only that loot boxes bring more negative effects than positive effects.
You don't think so? It's frustratingly common to see rhetoric in threads like this about how games were """"complete"""" back in the day, or the number of people asking for a higher upfront price for games with no DLC, or references to that one article with the splashy headline, even though the subject of the story was only involved with randomized microtransactions in any degree in one of the five games games he cites as having been addicted to.
 

legend166

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,113
Aren't the old days paying 25 cents for three lives?

I made a whole thread about how game design is basically reverting back to the arcade days where the number one consideration is financial. It got like two replies.

The best thing that ever happened to game design was arcades dying, because it removed that necessity to design specifically for revenue generation. The fact that large segments of the industry are going back in that direction is terrible.
 

Hasseigaku

Member
Oct 30, 2017
3,541
I don't understand why everyone arguing against microtransactions is oblivious to the possibility that the causation goes the other way - that microtransactions promote player engagement.


Yet somehow, when people are talking about issues like food addiction, it's kosher to talk about personal responsibility and not just blame big food.

I don't think anyone is arguing that mtx don't drive player engagement, but that doesn't make it not harmful to a certain number of players or making the games better overall. Mtx are great for those that employ them, sometimes (in the case of blind boxes) to the detriment of the player.

Food addiction is apples to oranges here because we all have to engage with food, and if you've ever engaged me on the topic of obesity and/or food addiction you'd know that I think that government regulation and food companies have their share of responsibility for the crisis we're in.
 

Deleted member 3853

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
801
Ok if we put it like this - rather than what people can afford, let's call it "get value for the money". Again, people spending a couple of bucks here and there isn't a problem. The problem is that for every "win" someone gets, a whole lot of people "lose" and don't get value for the money. That's how gambling works. Some people can't handle that situation and overspend vastly because of the addictive and manipulative way it's incoporated in games.

That's just how currency works though. It's better to have the currency than whatever you're buying since it's almost always going to be bad value. Money people spend on loot boxes goes towards supporting the game and community they like so much that they're willing to set up shop and purchase items that can't be transferred to other games.

Also wondering how they (cosmetic loot boxes) are detrimental to games. I asked before but you didn't answer. :(

See it's even better for the publishers than it is for casinos because even if you "win", they lose no money. So they give you casino-like odds of winning something good while taking none of the risks of losing money that casinos have.

Except though you have people, like me, who don't open any boxes and instead just enjoy the support. That'd be like me paying for one night at the casino hotel and them having to let me stay there as long as they stay in business.
 

Laiza

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,171
i don't know. unless this individual is like at least pre-teen, one has to ask: at what point do people need to accept responsibility? because the idea that a piece of computer animation, no matter how 'soft' the 'glow', is just that overwhelmingly/irresistibly seductive to an older teen or adult is pretty far-fetched, imo :) ...
This thread really, really makes me wish ableism were treated with the same level of scrutiny as racism and sexism. It's unacceptable behavior. All this "personal responsibility" bullshit is just a way to deflect blame from the corporation to the consumer. Think about that for a second - why is the responsibility with the weaker party, and not the party that holds all the cards and is visibly exploiting people who have the misfortune to be born with addictive personalities? And for the record, being born with that sort of predisposition is pretty much down entirely to one's luck - one's genetic makeup, one's parenting, one's peers and teachers and local support structure, etc. Everything we know about human development and neuroscience supports this.

You don't get to play the "personal responsibility" card with regards to any kind of exploitative behavior or business practice. That's not how the world works. It's called that for a reason. Exploitation of the weak should not be overlooked just because you personally benefit from the exploitation. In fact, many such arguments hew far too close to justifications over slavery and racism for me to excuse it. If that accusation makes you uncomfortable, look over your arguments and think about what you're implying behind that sentiment. It's not a pretty look.
 

Kneecap

Member
Oct 27, 2017
304
It's a pretty common tactic to demean the vulnerable by acting as if everything happening to them is their fault.

No kidding. It seems to me that the personality and belief systems of the people who defend unregulated corporate microtransactions overlap with those who say things like:

"Well, if she wanted to quit cigarettes, she'd quit cigarettes," or "I don't care if he's an alcoholic, he should just quit drinking."

Ya gotta love the by-your-own-bootstraps rugged individualism of laissez-faire capitalism promoters.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,985
Ann Arbor, Mi
The "are a crisis" and "already here" parts are kinda redundant.

I mean that's a nitpick to end all nitpicks

Not a nitpick. You're making a distinction between competent writing and excellent writing.

From my past teaching experience, a lot of students don't realize how dreadfully mediocre their writing is until an English prof uses their submission (anonymously to the rest of the class) as a demonstration.

Keep doing what you do. Some of us appreciate it.


As far as the article is concerned, the part about shame resonates with me. Every event, I drop about $25 or $20 whatever it is, on Overwatch loot boxes, but I charge it in a way so that the Mrs does not detect it among our regular expenses.
 

Amibguous Cad

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,033
This thread really, really makes me wish ableism were treated with the same level of scrutiny as racism and sexism. It's unacceptable behavior. All this "personal responsibility" bullshit is just a way to deflect blame from the corporation to the consumer. Think about that for a second - why is the responsibility with the weaker party, and not the party that holds all the cards and is visibly exploiting people who have the misfortune to be born with addictive personalities? And for the record, being born with that sort of predisposition is pretty much down entirely to one's luck - one's genetic makeup, one's parenting, one's peers and teachers and local support structure, etc. Everything we know about human development and neuroscience supports this.

You don't get to play the "personal responsibility" card with regards to any kind of exploitative behavior or business practice. That's not how the world works. It's called that for a reason. Exploitation of the weak should not be overlooked just because you personally benefit from the exploitation. In fact, many such arguments hew far too close to justifications over slavery and racism for me to excuse it. If that accusation makes you uncomfortable, look over your arguments and think about what you're implying behind that sentiment. It's not a pretty look.

No kidding. It seems to me that the personality and belief systems of the people who defend unregulated corporate microtransactions overlap with those who say things like:

"Well, if she wanted to quit cigarettes, she'd quit cigarettes," or "I don't care if he's an alcoholic, he should just quit drinking."

Ya gotta love the by-your-own-bootstraps rugged individualism of laissez-faire capitalism promoters.

It feels like most people get this in regards to alcohol? Like, of course, no one chooses to be an addict, but everyone has a choice in how they respond to it. It's not like personal responsibility means nothing, even if some degree of sympathy is probably deserved for having been dealt such a tough hand. But literally no one shows up to the town hall meeting about whether their cit6y is going to institute a price floor on alcohol, or a tax on alcohol, or create funding for rehab programs, or any other matter of public policy and say "well, it's all about personal responsibility." No shit it's about personal responsibility but it's also about corporations' civic and ethical responsibility. Let the 12-steps do all the berating of addicts and focus on how you can make it easier for people to stay sober when discussing public policy.

Not a nitpick. You're making a distinction between competent writing and excellent writing.

From my past teaching experience, a lot of students don't realize how dreadfully mediocre their writing is until an English prof uses their submission (anonymously to the rest of the class) as a demonstration.

Keep doing what you do. Some of us appreciate it.


As far as the article is concerned, the part about shame resonates with me. Every event, I drop about $25 or $20 whatever it is, on Overwatch loot boxes, but I charge it in a way so that the Mrs does not detect it among our regular expenses.

I'm not trying to say anything about your consumption of loot boxes, which sounds moderate enough anyway, but I think it's notable that this very strongly resembles the behavior of alcoholics.
 

Hasseigaku

Member
Oct 30, 2017
3,541
Except though you have people, like me, who don't open any boxes and instead just enjoy the support. That'd be like me paying for one night at the casino hotel and them having to let me stay there as long as they stay in business.

I know EULA's say that we are technically renting a license to these games, but comparing someone who buys a game and doesn't engage with blind box/lootbox to people leeching off a business is a bit much.

It's more like you used to be able to buy a house, and then buy additions to it. But now, instead of just being able to buy the house and buy the additions to it, you are reliant upon either a) other people gambling enough of their money away that the whole community gets improvement or b) rolling the dice yourself and hoping you get the addition you want.
 

OhMyZach

Member
Oct 27, 2017
407
This is a discussion about lootboxes, lootboxes are not regulated, so bringing up regulated products to justify lootboxes doesn't work.
Loot boxes ARE regulated. That's why it's not illegal. They hit the same qualifications that sweepstakes and other chance-based products do. That's why they don't qualify as gambling.
 

ArkhamFantasy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,545
Loot boxes ARE regulated. That's why it's not illegal. They hit the same qualifications that sweepstakes and other chance-based products do. That's why they don't qualify as gambling.

What regulations are you speaking of? The code is not inspected, the odds can be whatever they like, they dont have to reveal the odds, there's no spending cap, lootbox games can have E ratings.

I dont know what type of regulations you're talking about, and they clearly don't address the problems in the OP.
 

mas8705

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,497
While I do like the title, calling is a Crisis might be stretching a bit far. If it were a Crisis, I'm pretty sure we would have seen a much bigger impact against loot boxes that would have happened much sooner than BF2.

Now that said, I can definitely see how it can be an issue. Hell, I would go as far to say that I got to experience first hand during the OW Halloween event and spent a good sum to get the skins I wanted. The problem is that with the way lootboxes are, it is basically as how some have put it: "The Children's Intro To Gambling" where you always win! But you never get what you want. Problem is that some people are much more suspectable to the feeling that Lootboxes gives people and can lead us into circumstances that are less than favorable.
 

yyr

Member
Nov 14, 2017
3,469
White Plains, NY
Question to all regarding Overwatch: don't OW lootboxes give you some sort of in-game currency when you get items you already have, and can't that currency be used to buy items you don't yet have? I thought that was how it worked, and it's a somewhat-fair way to ultimately get whatever specific skin you want, even if your luck is bad.

A better way, though, would be to say "if you buy x boxes, you get to pick any item you don't have." And x should be a reasonable number, of course.

The best thing that ever happened to game design was arcades dying, because it removed that necessity to design specifically for revenue generation. The fact that large segments of the industry are going back in that direction is terrible.

As someone who still visits arcades and plays modern arcade games, I can tell you that this statement is thoroughly false.

It is true that SOME arcade games are designed specifically for revenue generation (see: most Raw Thrills shooting games, all redemption games), but to suggest that all of them are this way is ridiculous.

beatmaniaIIDX, DanceDanceRevolution, Groove Coaster, and other music games generate revenue not because they're designed to part a player from their money, but because their experiences are fun enough that people are willing to pay to play them.

Japanese shooting games, both rail shooters and shmups, are generally designed the way old arcade platformers were: if you are skilled, and you practice enough, you can complete the game in one credit. Does it cost money to get to that point? Sure it does, but once you get there you can reap the rewards. Time Crisis 5 is just one recent example of this.

Modern arcade driving games give you a fun experience for your credit. The good ones, like Maximum Tune and Initial D, give you a storyline and save your progress too. People play more because they want to, because the games are fun.

So get on out of here with your blanket statements!
 

semiconscious

Banned
Nov 10, 2017
2,140
You don't get to play the "personal responsibility" card with regards to any kind of exploitative behavior or business practice. That's not how the world works. It's called that for a reason. Exploitation of the weak should not be overlooked just because you personally benefit from the exploitation. In fact, many such arguments hew far too close to justifications over slavery and racism for me to excuse it. If that accusation makes you uncomfortable, look over your arguments and think about what you're implying behind that sentiment. It's not a pretty look.

we're gonna have to agree to disagree. just about all marketing, at this point, is, to a degree, exploitative. what are we to do? refuse to take personal responsibility, shrug our shoulders, & just stand there getting battered/manipulated by all of it? i don't think so...
 

Hasseigaku

Member
Oct 30, 2017
3,541
Also even if I didn't have my own issues I don't care about getting extra content enough that I'm okay with people's lives being destroyed for it. There's way too much misery in the world to support something that adds to it.