Waypoint |OT| video games...are good

M3z_

Member
Oct 30, 2017
26
People don't like the Waypoint discussion because it was 4 hours of the least charitable interpretation of every scene (except for the Asuka fight which is so good that everyone is compelled to love it)

They're all valid because people feel however they feel, but it doesn't mean they are automatically correct about everything they said just because they didn't like it. Especially for Waypoint—who pride themselves on being the high brow deep dive critics—to be dismissive for hours on end and continually talk about how they don't want to be doing the discussion, I just... don't really see much value in it.
It's like eating a pomegranate. Little jewels that you want surrounded by a cumbersome husk and each with a bitter seed inside.
This is interesting to me because while I certainly agree that overall the crew walk away feeling let down and have come to dislike much of Eva or at least dislike the ending. One of the things I think this podcast series has done very well for me is clearly show admiration for certain things it attempts to cover while also clearly stating the ways in which those attempts are botched. One of the things people in here seem to be hitting on is the idea that they routinely give the least charitable interpretation of various events in the show. I feel like that lack of charity is built to over the watch and is earned by their worldviews and experiences with the show. They certainly were not unwilling to be charitable in early podcasts and you can trace different people's paths to losing their desire to perform more charitable readings as they individually experience AND EXPLAIN THOROUGHLY various parts of the show that let them down.

In addition to that one of the things I thought was great was Austin would routinely break a discussion for a bit when they had been piling on their disappointment to basically address the questions many people might feel they were begging. He would basically explicitly say if you are wondering why we are not giving this a more charitable read this is why or another read many people have given this scene is _____ but here is why I don't buy that. The number of times I found myself listening to them present their opinion on a scene and wondering in the back of my head "I wonder what they think of ____ interpretation" only for Austin to basically say shortly after me thinking that "The reason ____ interpretation doesn't work for me is ____" was often for me.

I do agree that the format of this pod really did center Austin's framing in a lot of cases because he was doing the recaps, but I also feel like he was largely the one other than Cado putting in any work to redeem elements of the show once opinion had soured. If you were going to ask me to map the member's preference for the show in a linear graph I would walk away with Cado->Austin->Danielle->Rob->Patrick. So Austin having the most forefront voice would presumably in my view give you one of the most favorable interpretations Waypoint could give.

Really though I just think you should be critical of the things you love and affect you. That hearing criticism of the show is good, this show is ripe for criticism because it tries so much and even if you are more charitable to it, I think it's good to be exposed to why others would not be.
 

Zocano

Member
Oct 26, 2017
733
Really though I just think you should be critical of the things you love and affect you. That hearing criticism of the show is good, this show is ripe for criticism because it tries so much and even if you are more charitable to it, I think it's good to be exposed to why others would not be.
You really expressed much more eloquently how I feel about the responses to their discussion of the show. I personally find myself less and less being completely enthralled by work as I see more and more media but that isn't to say I don't have some adoration for works that meant a lot to me. NieR and Spec Ops: The Line are both messy works *especially* Spec Ops which is on some rickety foundation from the get-go, yet I love to hear other's viewpoints on Spec Ops: The Line because I want my own take on the work to be challenged and argued (indirectly, if so). My own deep emotional resonance with it doesn't mean I think others who heavily critique it or deride it are wrong or "missed the point". I understand that it *is* possible to misunderstand a work but I think that misunderstanding can some times be its own reflection of the work.

But anyway, I definitely believe (after having listened through the podcast 2.5 times so far) that they are, for the most part, critical yet fair towards the work. Yes, overall they are negative, but it isn't this blind abject dismissal of the work with no foundation. I feel they fairly clearly address their reasoning and how they got to that conclusion not just within these episodes but across the show, as you had mentioned. It's not a gentle take on the show, but I don't think it's an unsubstantiated take.
 

Dream Machine

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,575

Joeku

Member
Oct 26, 2017
14,482
Danielle's thread from today really doesn't sound as rough as some of you read her opinions:



 

Mafro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,746
People get upset when you point out that Eva is basically Fight Club for weebs. Doubly so if you’re able to somewhat discuss why.
That’s actually a really good summary lol.

Seeing people moan about the crew for criticising their favourite show and vowing to stop listening to the podcast/visiting the site as a result is a bit extreme. Reminds me of the reactions you see in review threads on here.

However, if they ever do something like this again they seriously need to rethink the format because allowing Austin to recap everything basically scene by scene allows him to set the agenda too often.
They should have split it up into shorter podcasts covering less episodes each. 3+hour shows with no timestamps reaches "not respecting people's time" territory. Yes, people don't have to listen to it all at once but If I'm listening to a long podcast in bits I just end up losing interest quickly.

Enjoyed their analysis overall and loved hearing them giving the show a deserved kick-in for it's worst parts. I totally agree with everything they said about EoE. I'm glad I had the rebuild movies to watch after that to wash the taste out of my mouth ( I'm treating 3.33 as a continuation after EoE in my own canon)
 

Tygre

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,969
Chesire, UK
By her own accounting, Danielle watched the whole show roughly 3 times over.

Out of the newbies she was definitely the most positive and the most willing to engage with the material and to go searching for the positives that might be there. I'm really glad she was on the pods because it would have been rough with just a mostly checked-out Rob and Patrick.
 

Dream Machine

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,575
Kind of odd that their tweets after the fact seem more nuanced than a 4.5 hour conversation

Maybe it really was just the format that skewed the conversation


Let's see what patrick's post-game nuanced take was:

Yep, that tracks
 
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Ashby

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,041
Look, Patrick just wants to be left alone to sneak booze into a Marvel movie with his wife at 35 years old
 
Oct 27, 2017
348
Those tweets point to how ill-advised the format was as it stripped time for reflection in exchange for what was functionally a Youtube Reaction series with Austin narrating the way. What they should have done is watch the entire show, sit on it for a week, talk amongst themselves to get a sense for how to organize their thoughts + analysis and *then* do a single big 4-5 hour pod. Eva isn't difficult to 'figure out' but and it offers plenty of space for vastly different reads. Cado tried to open this up a bit but it's a tall order to leave that job to the least confident speaker of the Waypoint crew.
 
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Hella

Member
Oct 27, 2017
12,811
I never thought it would be an Eva rewatch that'd bring out the community's vitriol and passive-aggressive sniping, but here we are.

2019 sure is wild.
 

Dream Machine

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,575
They legit should do an Utena watch, but with a better discussion format. It's so good.

Then just do Bebop to finish the 90's tv anime trifecta
 

Zocano

Member
Oct 26, 2017
733
I feel the internet would suffer a gravitational collapse if Waypoint put out a podcast series where they also tore apart Cowboy Bebop.

(I like but don’t especially love Bebop).
 

M3z_

Member
Oct 30, 2017
26
I mean Austin and the crew basically have said they would of loved to do this podcast as part of the Rewatch series but are not afforded that luxury. So I mean I think there are fair criticisms of the presentation but I also am sympathetic to the constraints they had to operate under.
 

Jintor

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,689
I love Bebop but I think one of the main problems I feel more and more as time goes on is that a lot of episodes want to be a hour long movie or so but they have to cram it into 24 minutes, which is also why the two-parters work so well.
 

Ashby

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,041
I just rewatched the Komm Susser Tod scene. "Am I allowed to be here?" I find it downright incomprehensible how someone can call this un-empathetic and misanthropic. Utterly mind-boggling.
 

Nerokis

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,712
I love Bebop but I think one of the main problems I feel more and more as time goes on is that a lot of episodes want to be a hour long movie or so but they have to cram it into 24 minutes, which is also why the two-parters work so well.
suddenly I'm remembering there was a point long, long ago when I was depressed and for some reason the Cowboy Bebop movie was not only one of the things I could enjoy without that enjoyment being infiltrated by despair, it actually provided comfort throughout some of those darker stretches

now the only thing I can recall from it with any fidelity is that Ask DNA song, and I don't have the slightest idea whether it holds up or not
 

PBalfredo

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,493
Honestly, Dream Machine , how much charitable to Eva did they need to be than they already were? Throughout the podcast they already paused several times to consider different reads, even if they were rejected. And they talked through why they came to their conclusions. Rob was certainly scathing in his criticism, but it was certainly was well reasoned.
 

Jintor

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,689
suddenly I'm remembering there was a point long, long ago when I was depressed and for some reason the Cowboy Bebop movie was not only one of the things I could enjoy without that enjoyment being infiltrated by despair, it actually provided comfort throughout some of those darker stretches

now the only thing I can recall from it with any fidelity is that Ask DNA song, and I don't have the slightest idea whether it holds up or not
that opening is still rad as fuck
 

Voras

Member
Oct 27, 2017
11
I just rewatched the Komm Susser Tod scene. "Am I allowed to be here?" I find it downright incomprehensible how someone can call this un-empathetic and misanthropic. Utterly mind-boggling.
The Komm Susser Tod scene starts with Asuka being strangled. And it's not like that's the only scene in the movie with violence against women, or even just violence done to Asuka. Not sure how it's mind boggling that someone would call the movie un-empathetic or misanthropic.
 

Dream Machine

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,575
I'm somehow just now realizing that Eva, Utena, and Bebop all have a movie that's a heightened concentration of all the themes and visuals of their respective tv shows.
Honestly, Dream Machine , how much charitable to Eva did they need to be than they already were? Throughout the podcast they already paused several times to consider different reads, even if they were rejected. And they talked through why they came to their conclusions. Rob was certainly scathing in his criticism, but it was certainly was well reasoned.
They didn't need to do anything, it's their show. I guess I'm one of the only ones who heard groans, sighs, and scoffing dismissal, whenever the majority of alternate readings were briefly brought up, and found that sort of obnoxious after listening to like 20 hours of them talking about it.

It's cool if you enjoyed their eva podcasts without reservation. However, I spent longer listening to them talk about eva than they spent watching eva, so I feel perfectly entitled (entitled fan alert) to expressing how I didn't like the tone or tack of most of the back half of their podcasts on a discussion forum.
 

Dream Machine

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,575
suddenly I'm remembering there was a point long, long ago when I was depressed and for some reason the Cowboy Bebop movie was not only one of the things I could enjoy without that enjoyment being infiltrated by despair, it actually provided comfort throughout some of those darker stretches

now the only thing I can recall from it with any fidelity is that Ask DNA song, and I don't have the slightest idea whether it holds up or not
I mostly just remember the fight scene with the broom and the butterfly motif.

I should rewatch that movie
 

PBalfredo

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,493
I'm somehow just now realizing that Eva, Utena, and Bebop all have a movie that's a heightened concentration of all the themes and visuals of their respective tv shows.

They didn't need to do anything, it's their show. I guess I'm one of the only ones who heard groans, sighs, and scoffing dismissal, whenever the majority of alternate readings were briefly brought up, and found that sort of obnoxious after listening to like 20 hours of them talking about it.

It's cool if you enjoyed their eva podcasts without reservation. However, I spent longer listening to them talk about eva than they spent watching eva, so I feel perfectly entitled (entitled fan alert) to expressing how I didn't like the tone or tack of most of the back half of their podcasts on a discussion forum.
Throughout the eva podcasts they've been exposed to enough of the fanbase explaining "Don't you see? Eva is actually issuing a brutal criticism of the sexualization of minors in anime by ...(checks notes)... sexualizing minors" that I don't blame them for groaning when it's time to consider "B-b-but you're supposed to be disgusted by Misako kissing Shinji!"
 

Dream Machine

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,575
Throughout the eva podcasts they've been exposed to enough of the fanbase explaining "Don't you see? Eva is actually issuing a brutal criticism of the sexualization of minors in anime by ...(checks notes)... sexualizing minors" that I don't blame them for groaning when it's time to consider "B-b-but you're supposed to be disgusted by Misako kissing Shinji!"
Yeah, that's a fair thing to be dismissive of. Unfortunately there were *checks notes* many other things they were dismissive of, and better alternate interpretations to things that weren't brought up, throughout the show that I think deserved more conversation.

Think of my feelings on the podcast like this: I spent 20+ hours consuming something that had potential early on, really seemed like it was going somewhere and had some interesting things to say, only for it to devolve into repeating the same negative outlook over and over again with some occasional shouting and spectacle. The fanbase is telling me I should like it, not to dismiss it, and that it actually had deep things to say, but at the end, it all felt very surface level to me. Like they just ran out of motivation, were pressed for time, and it showed in the final product. I wish I could think of something I could relate that feeling to, but i'm coming up blank.
 

Error 52

Member
Nov 1, 2017
1,443
suddenly I'm remembering there was a point long, long ago when I was depressed and for some reason the Cowboy Bebop movie was not only one of the things I could enjoy without that enjoyment being infiltrated by despair, it actually provided comfort throughout some of those darker stretches

now the only thing I can recall from it with any fidelity is that Ask DNA song, and I don't have the slightest idea whether it holds up or not
It’s pretty good, still. Basically a longer Cowboy Bebop episode, and there’s nothing wrong with that.
 

Jintor

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,689
Think of my feelings on the podcast like this: I spent 20+ hours consuming something that had potential early on, really seemed like it was going somewhere and had some interesting things to say, only for it to devolve into repeating the same negative outlook over and over again with some occasional shouting and spectacle. The fanbase is telling me I should like it, not to dismiss it, and that it actually had deep things to say, but at the end, it all felt very surface level to me. Like they just ran out of motivation, were pressed for time, and it showed in the final product. I wish I could think of something I could relate that feeling to, but i'm coming up blank.
damn
 

PBalfredo

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,493
Think of my feelings on the podcast like this: I spent 20+ hours consuming something that had potential early on, really seemed like it was going somewhere and had some interesting things to say, only for it to devolve into repeating the same negative outlook over and over again with some occasional shouting and spectacle. The fanbase is telling me I should like it, not to dismiss it, and that it actually had deep things to say, but at the end, it all felt very surface level to me. Like they just ran out of motivation, were pressed for time, and it showed in the final product. I wish I could think of something I could relate that feeling to, but i'm coming up blank.
Purposefully invoking the bitter disappointment of how eva ended in bemoaning how Waypoint was disappointed in how eva ended sure is a choice.
 

Ashby

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,041
Think of my feelings on the podcast like this: I spent 20+ hours consuming something that had potential early on, really seemed like it was going somewhere and had some interesting things to say, only for it to devolve into repeating the same negative outlook over and over again with some occasional shouting and spectacle. The fanbase is telling me I should like it, not to dismiss it, and that it actually had deep things to say, but at the end, it all felt very surface level to me. Like they just ran out of motivation, were pressed for time, and it showed in the final product. I wish I could think of something I could relate that feeling to, but i'm coming up blank.
Congratulations
 

Hamchan

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
2,849
Yeah, that's a fair thing to be dismissive of. Unfortunately there were *checks notes* many other things they were dismissive of, and better alternate interpretations to things that weren't brought up, throughout the show that I think deserved more conversation.

Think of my feelings on the podcast like this: I spent 20+ hours consuming something that had potential early on, really seemed like it was going somewhere and had some interesting things to say, only for it to devolve into repeating the same negative outlook over and over again with some occasional shouting and spectacle. The fanbase is telling me I should like it, not to dismiss it, and that it actually had deep things to say, but at the end, it all felt very surface level to me. Like they just ran out of motivation, were pressed for time, and it showed in the final product. I wish I could think of something I could relate that feeling to, but i'm coming up blank.
I’m with you.
 

Zocano

Member
Oct 26, 2017
733
I know you may have wanted a deep insightful discussion but I don’t think you were ever going to get that out of a podcast that is almost structured as an immediate reaction discussion. Fans and critics have had over two decades to mull over their thoughts on the show. No shit Austin and Cado had the most “”””insightful”””” comments of the group since they’ve had the most time to actually parse their feelings and reparse and reflect and pick and choose what they find most interesting to discuss. Maybe in a year or two they’d be more receptive to a more comprehensive discussion of the show but even a singular 4 hour discussion isn’t enough to cover really everything in Evangelion’s finale.
 

Ashby

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,041
Think of my feelings on the podcast like this: I spent 20+ hours consuming something that had potential early on, really seemed like it was going somewhere and had some interesting things to say, only for it to devolve into repeating the same negative outlook over and over again with some occasional shouting and spectacle. The fanbase is telling me I should like it, not to dismiss it, and that it actually had deep things to say, but at the end, it all felt very surface level to me. Like they just ran out of motivation, were pressed for time, and it showed in the final product. I wish I could think of something I could relate that feeling to, but i'm coming up blank.
Honestly tweet them this
 

Dream Machine

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,575
You guys, it's fine for people to not like the same stuff as you. Me not liking their coverage on the podcast as a whole does not detract in any way from your enjoyment of it. There's no need to be defensive of your favorite show website content just because someone else had a differing opinion on it.

My posts have been an immediate reaction to their podcasts. Maybe in time I will soften on the way things wrapped up, and come to appreciate what they were going through as they made it.
Honestly tweet them this
I would never
 
Oct 27, 2017
5,218
Think of my feelings on the podcast like this: I spent 20+ hours consuming something that had potential early on, really seemed like it was going somewhere and had some interesting things to say, only for it to devolve into repeating the same negative outlook over and over again with some occasional shouting and spectacle. The fanbase is telling me I should like it, not to dismiss it, and that it actually had deep things to say, but at the end, it all felt very surface level to me. Like they just ran out of motivation, were pressed for time, and it showed in the final product. I wish I could think of something I could relate that feeling to, but i'm coming up blank.
oh I thought you were talking about eva
 

Dream Machine

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,575
It’s nice to think sometimes a conversation is being held in good faith.

Oh well.
These actually are my feelings. Why pass up perfectly good parallels?

And people have been condescending, outright calling me dumb, and subtweeting me the past couple of pages anyway, lol. Don't act aghast because I was slightly cheeky.
 

Dream Machine

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,575
oh I thought you were talking about eva
Oh shit, it does line up with eva!
What do ya'll want from them? An apology?
Honestly? To post my feelings of disappointment with other like minded people that they didn't go more in depth during this gigantic 5 star runtime series of podcasts I listened through without being told I'm actually wrong for wanting that. I'm not harassing them, or tweeting them. I'm talking on a discussion forum.
 

PBalfredo

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,493
Oh shit, it does line up with eva!

Honestly? To post my feelings of disappointment with other like minded people that they didn't go more in depth during this gigantic 5 star runtime series of podcasts I listened through without being told I'm actually wrong for wanting that. I'm not harassing them, or tweeting them. I'm talking on a discussion forum.
What even is left to discuss that hasn't already been floated in some form or another in the podcast? In all your posts you've never mentioned what they're supposedly missing in their discussion.
 

Zocano

Member
Oct 26, 2017
733
That's fair. You're not wrong to be at the very least frustrated with the way people have acted (I'm guilty of being snarky about it as well).

And you're not wrong for wanting a deeper discussion out of them. I just think you could see the checking-out coming from the last set of episodes and I find it personally hard to fault them (primarily Patrick and Rob) for not spending, arguably even more, time to dig around in a piece of media they had lost interest in.
 

Dream Machine

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,575
What even is left to discuss that hasn't already been floated in some form or another in the podcast? In all your posts you've never mentioned what they're supposedly missing in their discussion.
That would require going back through and taking notes on each sub-discussion of each podcast episode, and I just can't sorry. These are the gestalt feelings on the whole thing

I think the people who suggested a different format that dropped the scene by scene synopsis would be good going forward, though. That would probably address a lot of the things that I found grating over time because it would replace the sort of call and response "waypoint reacts!" moment-by-moment rundowns with just discussions that they wanted to have.