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Hella

Member
Oct 27, 2017
23,406
I think all the "compress early game" talks was actually about the interstitial quests between ARR and Heavensward (2.1-2.55 or w/e). You can't really alter ARR itself without redoing a metric ton of content, and simple fixes like "remove quest objectives" or something would make it faster... but also genuinely soul crushing.

Might be wrong on that though, I dunno.
 

Breqesk

Member
Oct 28, 2017
5,230
I think all the "compress early game" talks was actually about the interstitial quests between ARR and Heavensward (2.1-2.55 or w/e). You can't really alter ARR itself without redoing a metric ton of content, and simple fixes like "remove quest objectives" or something would make it faster... but also genuinely soul crushing.

Might be wrong on that though, I dunno.
Ahhh okay. With how people have described the 'early' parts of the game, I just know I'd bounce off more or less immediately going by my past experiences with MMOs, so if there isn't gonna be any kind of major overhaul of that stuff I think I'll just continue to listen to other folks' impressions of the late game while really wishing I could experience some of it for myself.
 

Brakke

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,798
To some extent, Columbus Day has been repurposed as "Indigenous Peoples' Day." https://www.npr.org/2019/10/14/769083847/columbus-day-or-indigenous-peoples-day

Imagine an MMO that's actually a full-fledged Final Fantasy RPG. Sounds kinda silly spelled out like that, but honestly that's it.

Mostly, FFXIV manages to tell a story that is much bigger, and goes much farther, than any traditional RPG can. It tells the tale of a hero's journey, then tells what happened next. It is an utterly captivating study of heroism, in all its forms.

This is the part I don't get. On the whole, "full-fledged Final Fantasy RPGs" aren't "utterly captivating." Usually, they conceptually cool but kind of pulpy.

What literally happens in FFXIV? I've never heard anybody articulate that. Is it just impressive that FFXIV is a solid ongoing story? Or is it a somehow better long story than you'd get elsewhere?
 

Hella

Member
Oct 27, 2017
23,406
This is the part I don't get. On the whole, "full-fledged Final Fantasy RPGs" aren't "utterly captivating." Usually, they conceptually cool but kind of pulpy.

What literally happens in FFXIV? I've never heard anybody articulate that. Is it just impressive that FFXIV is a solid ongoing story? Or is it a somehow better long story than you'd get elsewhere?
The FFXIV community is good about keeping a lid on the story, I think. There kinda has to be a lot of mutual trust as new players will be constantly running with folks that have finished everything. Especially since most of the draw of progressing is seeing the story for yourself, and experiencing it on your own terms.

I myself don't feel comfortable spoiling it. So I'll just say that yeah, it goes places no other game can; in part due to its length, and in part due to its scope. It is a triumph in long-form storytelling. And in spite of being an MMO, FFXIV goes to great lengths to make it *your* story.

It's OK if this isn't enough to sell you on FFXIV. Some games shouldn't have spoilers weaponised to sell 'em to folks, and I think FFXIV is one of those games.
 

Antiwhippy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
33,458
No that's dumb.

I can literally just Google it.

Why not explain it in a way that can sell why you love it better than a wiki explanation.

People thinking spoilers will ruin something for someone who had a passing curiosity is the most gatekeeper dumb thing that overestimates how precious they think their experience is.
 

Brakke

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,798
No that's dumb.

I can literally just Google it.

Why not explain it in a way that can sell why you love it better than a wiki explanation.

People thinking spoilers will ruin something for someone who had a passing curiosity is the most gatekeeper dumb thing that overestimates how precious they think their experience is.

Yeah. CC Cado with this, tbh. Sometimes Austin, too.
 

Hella

Member
Oct 27, 2017
23,406
I'm a firm believer that spoilers change your experience with a game. Due to this, there are some games I refuse to spoil; and FFXIV is one of 'em.

Google it if you want, I can't stop you.
 

Joeku

Member
Oct 26, 2017
23,477
I watched the million hour D2 lore video before I started the Destiny 2 campaign last week, and the Red War just doesn't have fuck all to do with anything that matters in the Destiny cosmology and boy was that whack.
The Red War exists so every NPC can look at you and go "Oh shit you're the Guardian that defeated the whole Red Legion!"
 

spiritfox

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,628
I watched the million hour D2 lore video before I started the Destiny 2 campaign last week, and the Red War just doesn't have fuck all to do with anything that matters in the Destiny cosmology and boy was that whack.

Real talk, Destiny has a great setting but Bungie wastes it with their storytelling. Maybe they can pull off a Shadowbringers with the way the story is progressing, but right now it's kinda crap.
 

Brakke

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,798
I took a break from killing those big boring beefy boys to queue up for a strike in which I casually slayed a primordial god of eternal darkness... so I could complete my "calibrate bows" quest.

That wasn't really the Red War's fault but it did illustrate how utterly pointless the Red War was.
 

Sabas

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,588
I dipped out of ARR years back and only jumped back into...everything else (Heavensward/Stormblood/Shadowbringers) a little after Shadowbringers came out. I kept meaning to write about it but never got around to it.

I think part of what works for me is that it uses the familiar trappings of past final fantasy games. So chocobos, moogles, evil empires, etc. it's all there. As the warrior of light (your player character), you're thrust into this world and have to navigate basically every facet of it.You have corrupt merchant halflings influencing one region's politics with bribes and assassinations, swaying an isolated nation into opening up their borders, negotiating peace treaties, oh and somehow you have to do all that while fighting multiple gods. Also there's chocobo racing, mahjong, and weekly fashion contests. I think in terms of worldbuilding and characterization it does a significantly better than S-E's more recent non-MMO final fantasy titles.

As someone who outside of the required dungeons/raids prmarily played solo, I think there's plenty to do. Even moreso if you aren't a recluse like me and are open to raiding/hunts/pvp, etc.
 

Zocano

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,023
I took a break from killing those big boring beefy boys to queue up for a strike in which I casually slayed a primordial god of eternal darkness... so I could complete my "calibrate bows" quest.

That wasn't really the Red War's fault but it did illustrate how utterly pointless the Red War was.

Ya, Bungie has not been super great about maintaining any sort of on-boarding experience for new players, But your example is also just partly an issue of Bungie wanting new players to just get to current content which is like the opposite probably that FF14 has. 14 requires you to go through *everything* linearly if you're not using a boost to just skip to the current expansion... which negates the whole point of playing 14 for the story. Destiny just throws everything at you and says "here! do what you want!" but without any gentle push in the right direction to see narrative beats or not.

What literally happens in FFXIV? I've never heard anybody articulate that. Is it just impressive that FFXIV is a solid ongoing story? Or is it a somehow better long story than you'd get elsewhere?

It kinda is just that, from what I understand and what I have seen (I don't personally think it's great but apparently other people do so *shrug?*). Especially ARR's core story which is just a lot of your generic save the world from an empire that's meddling with powers beyond their understanding. And that's sort of the base for a lot of it going forward. It's just that as an MMO, they get to layer and layer and layer more narrative arcs everywhere, so I can see how people get hooked by that. Like I said, I don't think I ever once really cared for the story, especially in ARR, I was basically skimming through cutscenes and dialogue because 1) a lot of it was just MMO fluff and 2) a lot of it was generic JRPG fantasy anime epics. (note: I've only played through ARR and Heavensward, the first major expansion)

It just benefits, like you said, from the fact that it's long running and actively concerned about its "core" storyline and developing it so people got hooked on that. WoW has meandered and sort of felt like filler since Wrath of the Lich King and even then all of those storylines felt like butchered/bastardized versions of the original Warcraft 3 plot threads.

On the other hand, Destiny I really enjoy but it's incredibly sloppy and doesn't have the character/cutscene plotting that 14 has. It's mostly just a lot of really cool background lore with a lot of fairly mediocre active plot beats that you play through. The most interesting stuff narratively that was actually integrated as core gameplay was probably the Dreaming City stuff and that has also meandered and flatlined. Destiny, specfically, has the issue of Bungie not wanting to resolving any plot lines. All of it feels like coasting to a moment where they feel it's "ok" to actually have plotlines culminate or to end plot threads. It's probably tinfoil hatty but I get the impression they feel they can't end the big plot threads because it would mean having to make new ones or requiring to make drastic changes to gameplay interactions (for ex. Variks fulfilling the Kell of Kells prophecy and the Fallen becoming true allies). It also has a lot to do with them intentionally building so many of their plot threads to culminate with the big bads *finally* arriving.

I dunno, I'm probably ending up ranting and meandering myself just talking about Destiny and its handling of its lore and narrative within its gameplay but that's probably just on account of the game just being that way in its bones. Destiny has been a hot mess since that initial launch, but I've enjoyed its worldbuilding and small design points here and there in the background plenty despite it. Praise be to Emperor Calus.
 

Mafro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,365
Real talk, Destiny has a great setting but Bungie wastes it with their storytelling. Maybe they can pull off a Shadowbringers with the way the story is progressing, but right now it's kinda crap.
It kinda feels like, Forsaken expansion aside, they're just making it up as they go along now and mining old, unused/cut content with no long term plan.
 

Tzarscream

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
2,945
Reading some responses in this thread to the Hong Kong section of the last Waypoint Radio is just....

Did we listen to the same thing? How could you have a problem with what was said in the slightest?

Particularly salient was the part Austin mentioned about remember the "Yellow Peril" backlash there was at the last BlizzCon regarding the "Chinese Diablo Phone Game."
 

hat_hair

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,159
Reading some responses in this thread to the Hong Kong section of the last Waypoint Radio is just....

Did we listen to the same thing? How could you have a problem with what was said in the slightest?

I don't think we did listen to the same thing, because most of the discussion in this thread is following from the very brief "I'm going to stay in my lane" mention on Monday's episode (notably recorded before Blizzard banned anyone) rather than the much more in depth discussion on Friday.
 

Tzarscream

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
2,945
I don't think we did listen to the same thing, because most of the discussion in this thread is following from the very brief "I'm going to stay in my lane" mention on Monday's episode (notably recorded before Blizzard banned anyone) rather than the much more in depth discussion on Friday.
Faaaaiiiirrr enough.
 

Jintor

Saw the truth behind the copied door
Member
Oct 25, 2017
32,432
Imagine an MMO that's actually a full-fledged Final Fantasy RPG. Sounds kinda silly spelled out like that, but honestly that's it.

Mostly, FFXIV manages to tell a story that is much bigger, and goes much farther, than any traditional RPG can. It tells the tale of a hero's journey, then tells what happened next. It is an utterly captivating study of heroism, in all its forms.

There's not really any other game doing what FFXIV does. I think that's why it has only gotten more popular as time goes on.

fuck you i'm going to have to play this fucking game, aren't i

i hate you
 

Mafro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,365
I actually downloaded FF 14 on PS4 a few weeks ago to give it a try but was blocked from playing it because I had previously played the beta on PS3 on the same PSN account. Turns out its a common problem with the dumb way Square-Enix handles the accounts and I would've had to create a new PSN account if I wanted to play.
 

Hamchan

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
4,966
Final Fantasy XIV might be the best Final Fantasy ever. It's also still an MMO. Even Shadowbringers is still full of that MMO gameplay. Don't play it if you don't like MMOs. That it has one of the best stories in an FF game doesn't mean the MMO just vanishes with it. Don't be like Austin and get trapped playing an MMO for what could eventually be hundreds of hours. MMO.
 

hat_hair

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,159
I nearly got back into FFXIV lately, but I can't get back into my Square Enix account and can't really be bothered contacting Customer Service to get a password reset.
I only ever made it to about level 32.
 

Deleted member 203

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,899
When even the biggest FF14 fans say the first 100-150 hours basically suck, you know it's gotta be bad. I tried a bit of FF14 but the early gameplay is so boring and slow, it's pretty indefensible. Even by MMO standards.
 

benj

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,833
I got fully, like, 90 hours into FFXIV before bailing this spring. I was always watching a TV show at the same time as I played so it was just something to do with my hands, really. I was also skipping all the cutscenes/quest text because I am totally disinterested in video game stories that involve information just being blasted at me between gameplay segments, which I understand is not the way to have fun with that game.
 

Haubergeon

Member
Jan 22, 2019
2,270
When I played through ARR for the first time, I thought it was completely fine, but nothing particularly outstanding. At the same time though, I never really felt like my precious time was being critically wasted just by playing through the basic leveling process of the game, though that was 6 years ago and some standards have changed since then, obviously. I think it's unfair to claim it's "bad" for the first 200 hours or something, it's just obviously not their best stuff.

I mean, I think the larger problem with ARR is gameplay related (it's a shame that the gameplay part of the game never factors into these conversations but that's modern MMOs for you I guess) - the low level gameplay is really boring, which has only been made worse every single expansion where they try to maintain a similar overall number of buttons, so they just take buttons away from the low level stuff so they can re-add abilities to the new higher levels. It leaves almost all jobs feeling hollow and incomplete for nearly the entirety of the time you play, and since low-level content is so old, absolutely no one takes it seriously and any challenging aspect of them has been nerfed into oblivion. That's kind of why a lot of XIV recommendations come with "it's an amazing game - but if you're not current with it, you're never going to think it's as cool as I do" because by the time you're playing through most of the content, the only thing of any value at all is the story.

I re-played through all of the expansions recently, in fact, and the actual time it took wasn't really that long. It was just so dull to play through content people just rush through and you're hitting like three buttons in because they keep simplifying the low level gameplay so much. SE should get more criticism about how oversimplified the gameplay has become for the low level content, but since no one cares about gameplay the only complaints they've decided to address are "we'll condense some of the story quests I guess."

I think the best way to explain the appeal of FFXIV is by viewing its story as a long-running TV show that constantly builds on its continuity and has arcs beginning and ending in really fun, bombastic, cliffhanger-style endings that lead into the next "episodes" and with a huge ensemble cast. But reveals that were exciting mic drops at the time, that you would ponder on for months with the rest of the community, are pretty shortlived now.
 
Oct 25, 2017
18
When I played through ARR for the first time, I thought it was completely fine, but nothing particularly outstanding. At the same time though, I never really felt like my precious time was being critically wasted just by playing through the basic leveling process of the game, though that was 6 years ago and some standards have changed since then, obviously. I think it's unfair to claim it's "bad" for the first 200 hours or something, it's just obviously not their best stuff.

It's weird to see all the complaining about it now when I think back to how happy everyone was with it six years ago. Granted the game that existed six years ago doesn't really exist anymore today for a lot of reasons, some of which you just described. It's especially more pronounced now because everyone is just rushing through out of FOMO and engaging with the game in one of the worst ways. Yet I still find myself sympathetic to new players getting into the game now for things they have to endure that I didn't have to. The early game is also one of the reasons I personally hate doing synced content, as playing with only half your abilities is such a miserable experience. I'd rather they scale me down to doing 300 damage fell cleaves than just going back to not having it available at all. The pacing is kind of nice when FFXIV is your first MMO, but when you've been around the block a few times in other MMOs, 30-50-60 is rough.

FFXIV is also pretty bad in general with telling you about some of the important optional content as well, which immensely helps break up the monotony as you're gaining your first "full" toolkit. The twin's story for example didn't really begin to take shape for me until the Binding Coil questline, and that's just thinking back on A Realm Reborn. Heavensward and Stormblood do the same thing at their respective level caps (and Shadowbringers probably will too). Going into Shadowbringers without the context of the Crystal Tower is almost common for some people now, but you can only go so far out of your way to direct people to do it without running into separate issues.

I definitely think ARR is the weakest part of the experience, but the idea of it just straight up being "bad" is foreign to me because I look back on it fondly since it was given to the veteran players in more digestible package. That in turn made all the story beats that carry over one or two expansions later all the more resonant. That doesn't really exist for people anymore. Writing it off as sunken costs is also kind of a lazy mode of approaching what happened over the years as the pacing, writing, and skill-pruning got more streamlined.

It also leaves me somewhat skeptical on what actually gets "streamlined" with whatever the 5.3 update will bring because there's like three separate issues there that affect the game in different ways and I'm not sure "the problem" will get solved with it.
 
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Mezentine

Mezentine

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,976
I mean, I think the larger problem with ARR is gameplay related (it's a shame that the gameplay part of the game never factors into these conversations but that's modern MMOs for you I guess) - the low level gameplay is really boring, which has only been made worse every single expansion where they try to maintain a similar overall number of buttons, so they just take buttons away from the low level stuff so they can re-add abilities to the new higher levels. It leaves almost all jobs feeling hollow and incomplete for nearly the entirety of the time you play, and since low-level content is so old, absolutely no one takes it seriously and any challenging aspect of them has been nerfed into oblivion. That's kind of why a lot of XIV recommendations come with "it's an amazing game - but if you're not current with it, you're never going to think it's as cool as I do" because by the time you're playing through most of the content, the only thing of any value at all is the story.
This was my biggest question listening to the podcast. When Austin was describing his loop as "pressing 1...1...2...1" I was wondering if Rob or someone would chime in going "is that actually fun to do though?"

I think I'm on the extreme end of tolerance for mindlessness in games though. Like, I cannot stand grinding, the only loot based grindy game I've ever really gotten hardcore into is Monster Hunter because the combat requires continuous engagement
 

Master_Funk

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,592
Imagine an MMO that's actually a full-fledged Final Fantasy RPG. Sounds kinda silly spelled out like that, but honestly that's it.

Mostly, FFXIV manages to tell a story that is much bigger, and goes much farther, than any traditional RPG can. It tells the tale of a hero's journey, then tells what happened next. It is an utterly captivating study of heroism, in all its forms.

There's not really any other game doing what FFXIV does. I think that's why it has only gotten more popular as time goes on.

Can i get to all of this stuff solo or without speaking to other people?
 

benj

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,833
I have...some patience for grinding. I'm not the kind of person who loves to spend 10 hours in a JRPG making numbers go up, but, like, I've leveled a few WoW characters to cap, I like cruising through dungeons and making my guys strong in Darkest Dungeon and Fire Emblem, yadda yadda.

The kinda wild thing about FFXIV to me is that there is fundamentally zero 'space' for player innovation or experimentation in the context of the gameplay. I know that, e.g., WoW's talent system is kind of 'flat', but there's something cleanly satisfying to me about picking a WoW spec and getting good at it. Even though there's always a 'correct' rotation for whatever spec you are, just the act of choosing what spec you want makes it feel at least a little personal. You can play a slightly different kind of Sub Rogue than other players, you can spec to be better in some situations than others, there's some malleability.

In FFXIV, ime, there's really none of that. There is one correct series of inputs for each class for each scenario. Your job is to do your absolute best to try to match that series of inputs. There's no "I'm a Dragoon that focuses on x situation at the expense of y situation." If you're a Dragoon, and you're in x situation, your perfect play is very explicit: You should press 1, then press 2 0.5 seconds later, than press 3 0.5 seconds later, then...etc. It feels like the 'perfect' FFXIV player would be a bot with the correct inputs punched in, and FFXIV's players' job is to try to mimic their respective bot as best they can.
 

Haubergeon

Member
Jan 22, 2019
2,270
In FFXIV, ime, there's really none of that. There is one correct series of inputs for each class for each scenario. Your job is to do your absolute best to try to match that series of inputs. There's no "I'm a Dragoon that focuses on x situation at the expense of y situation." If you're a Dragoon, and you're in x situation, your perfect play is very explicit: You should press 1, then press 2 0.5 seconds later, than press 3 0.5 seconds later, then...etc. It feels like the 'perfect' FFXIV player would be a bot with the correct inputs punched in, and FFXIV's players' job is to try to mimic their respective bot as best they can.

I jokingly brought up in the GB thread that my automated subscription billing to FFXI actually triggered my bank's fraud detection for no reason, but this is exactly why I stay subbed to XI because I find XIV very frustrating for this reason. There is no variation in gear, there is no variation in gameplay strategy, and most fights are rigorously scripted, with absolutely no optional content because anything optional might confuse or cause issues in a group that disagrees on what to do.

XIV is great fun for what it is, it's a good first MMO especially, but if you find yourself bored with games that have no real mechanical or gameplay depth to them, XIV is definitely a game you'll just end up seeing things for the first time, and once the novelty wears off, you'll just wait for a couple patches of content to build back up, get in, and get out again, which is effectively what I've been doing ever since 2.1 dropped and I thought "wait, are these tomestones all there is to do now?" and it's effectively been that for 6 years. The bummer for me on top of it all is that most people like incredibly anti-social, straight forward experiences like this, so even though older MMOs actually tried to have unique gameplay, systems with choices, and encounters that required strategizing and communicating, none of the lack of that has in any way hindered XIV's success. Quite the contrary.
 

Zocano

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,023
At the time, and even now, I consider 14 probably the "best" mmo as far as integrating raid mechanics learning and story into its leveling experience. Having the player do all the instances as part of the main quest line was real smart and fun for the people like myself who love the rigorous execution of raid mechanics and perfecting their roles. It was a very standard mmo by many accounts but it weaved those things into a relatively fun story by the end of it (note I said fun but not good story). The finale for ARR is real fun and I really enjoy the final story dungeon because it's a confluence of all that raid mechanics and story integration all into itself and that at thr time was novel for an MMO.

I think the issue now has been that consistent players are now saying "wow the story is great!!!" In its later expansions when the ARR original story was not necessarily the star but I strong bonus on top of what was a pretty decent standard mmo experience. It was and most likely still is an MMO first and then Final Fantasy RPG second. With Shadowbringers, that seems to have shifted more weight to the latter but the game at its core was and will always be that WoW-style MMO.
 

Avengers23

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
21,504
This was my biggest question listening to the podcast. When Austin was describing his loop as "pressing 1...1...2...1" I was wondering if Rob or someone would chime in going "is that actually fun to do though?"

I think I'm on the extreme end of tolerance for mindlessness in games though. Like, I cannot stand grinding, the only loot based grindy game I've ever really gotten hardcore into is Monster Hunter because the combat requires continuous engagement
1 1 2 1 isn't that far from Destiny or Diablo or any game, really.
 

Zocano

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,023
1 1 2 1 isn't that far from Destiny or Diablo or any game, really.

Mmmmm, that's being a bit reductive to Destiny/Shooters. It's obviously different, and I get your point that at the end of it, it's just pushing buttons, but there's a certain repetition to Diablo/MMO quick spell management that can be much more grating to people than the more active role that a shooter/first person game can be.