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Waypoint |OT| video games...are good

Haubergeon

Member
Jan 22, 2019
808
The single most frustrating stance a podcast can take about anything controversial is "there's some assholes involved, so we can't have any kind of substantive conversation about this and instead must just close ranks condemning a certain subgroup and move on." It leaves so much unsaid, it ignores so much worthwhile critique, and overall always strikes me as intensely intellectually dishonest. There is such a better conversation we could be having about Pokemon but we never will because the word "dexit" exists.
 

Haubergeon

Member
Jan 22, 2019
808
I guess my overall point is largely that I find it tiring to see a big controversy around a game/developer doing something, and then any discussion we have about it has to be oriented in some sort of meta-analysis of the controversy of the controversy. Like, yeah, I get that some people on the internet are being dicks and saying ignorant things because game development is more complicated than people think it is, but to let that be the bulk of any discussion of it is like the news-section equivalent of when people talk about things in a game but neglect to ever mention the title of the game or any specific details for fear of spoilers, and so you just come away from it with absolutely nothing. It feels, like, anti-enlightening.

Ultimately I'm not really upset at all by it because I never expected any podcast of any significance to do anything but take the "Gamers Are At It Again" approach to a news story like this, but it's just one of those missed-opportunity things for me, because there's a lot to critique about the Pokemon franchise that gets lost in the noise because it's Pokemon and I feel like places that want unconventional takes or more interesting voices to speak about games could do better.

This is ultimately just a "me" thing. I actually feel the same about other games that I feel like fly under the radar because no one with a big platform cares to critically engage with it in anything but the exact same way - EVE is a great example of something I think gets really boring, basic reactions from people with a platform because no one on those platforms actually knows anything about it enough to go against the grain - it's just some variation on "Wow, I never want to play this game, but I sure love reading stories about it!"
 

Jintor

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,042
Ultimately I'm not really upset at all by it because I never expected any podcast of any significance to do anything but take the "Gamers Are At It Again" approach to a news story like this, but it's just one of those missed-opportunity things for me, because there's a lot to critique about the Pokemon franchise that gets lost in the noise because it's Pokemon and I feel like places that want unconventional takes or more interesting voices to speak about games could do better.
tbh i think that's why the controversy is so irritating to me. Pokemon has been a disappointment year on year but the fact that this current crop of dipshits has completely overrun the conversation is more on them than on Waypoint imho
 

Brakke

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,400
I feel like I anticipated Waypoint’s Pokémon takes earlier this week:

Patrick told a dumb story from the internet and then said “that’s probably fake but I don’t care” and then Austin followed up by credulously telling a probably fake story from the internet.
Why engage with the merits when you can just dunk on the clowniest clowns?

tbh i think that's why the controversy is so irritating to me. Pokemon has been a disappointment year on year but the fact that this current crop of dipshits has completely overrun the conversation is more on them than on Waypoint imho
Why let dipshits set “the” conversation tho. What’s the point of criticism if it can’t be bothered to lead?
 

Ojhe

Member
Apr 13, 2018
478
Bronx
These Pocket Monster games came out 6 months after I was born bruh, so I've basically grown up side by side with this franchise but I only started playing them when the RSE games came out and this whole life cycle of Sword n' Board have been so taxing.

I have Shield, I was heavily in tuned with the leaks, but I'm still enjoying the game. However, that doesn't mean I'm not severely disappointed by Game Freak and their decision making skills. Going into a new gen I always use a team of newcomers but knowing I had the option to bring my breloom with me every time was always a reassuring back thought for me. Shit, 60% of the Pokemon not being in the game wasn't that big of a deal for me as someone with a living dex and has completed the dex in every game since I was a child. BUT, that doesn't just invalidate other peoples gripes with it. Like there's so many other problems with the games and Game Freak's design choices that the dex being slice-n-diced was miniscule to me. I'm not even someone that cares for graphics but the wild area really does look like shit as much as I love it. Expecting better from a series you love is not inherently wrong and lazy dev rhetoric is always wrong but that does not invalidate the grievances people have with the game.
  • The idea of GameFreak adding the missing mons back into the games in post is absolutely hilarious, because, like do y'all know what company you're talking 'bout here? Soon as this game dropped they already closed up shop and it's probably a skeleton crew cleaning up anything game breaking that might crop up AT BEST
  • It's a kids game is also a silly argument, because as I kid I stomped through the harder Pokemon games ez-peasy and the only Pokemon game that ever roadblocked me was XD Gale of Darkness on the GameCube cus that game was hard as shit. This idea that children can't handle difficulty is really dumb cus I ate Dark Souls ass when I was a tween and children eat up Fortnite an extremely skill based game. It's a kids game makes sense only in the case of people asking for some super grimm dark Pokemon story and that's it lmao.
  • The balancing argument, ya know I'm willing to concede this one because everybody ain't in the post game yet but if you REALLY think cutting all them mons is gonna help balance I don't know what to say to ya. There were tiers in place in the community to aid in the balance issues so every mon could be viable in their own way for a reason. This isn't going to stop 10-20 mons being in Ubers and OU. The same exact thing is going to happen. People are going to find the best mons in our limited dex and they're going to be the only ones being used lol same as always.
Anyway, I love the podcast so much but hearing these same tired arguments from every single fucking platform has just been nauseating. Like, as fellow game enthusiasts the fact that grow up is coming out ya mouth for people criticising a game is just sad and I'm glad Austin reigned that in. Especially when people been telling others to grow up just because they play games for eons now. Like yeah I get that there's some toxic asshats in the bunch that have to bring it up on every Pokemon related post/tweet/etc. But I've seen that argument brought up so many times that I can only see it as disingenuous at this point. Toxic people like Pokemon too big whoop, no movement is immune to this type of shit so expecting people upset with Sword n' Shield to vet everybody else that's upset with the game is kinda dumb.

Anywho, enjoying my 15 hours with the game so far. Been trying to catch an Adamant Fluffy Stufful for about 10 of those hours and I don't even have my first badge yet LOL.
 

deepFlaw

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,776
They way some of you see this as letting a few bad parts of a fanbase dominate the conversation is kinda alien to me, because for fucking months the “Dexit” bullshit has by far been the most discussion I’ve seen about the game. Maybe this is a difference in communities, but as someone basically outside of Pokémon at this point (call me when Detective Pikachu 2 is coming), that’s essentially all I’d seen for a while, lots of whining about the Dex and then a very small amount of more reasonable criticism of their changes.

So... yes, there’s totally legitimate criticism to be made both about the cuts and other decisions, sure. But the vast majority has seemingly been this shit, or building off of it in the past week or so with. Is it unfortunate that this can overpower discussion of the actual criticism? Totally. But were they ever really going to go in depth on how this iteration may be kinda lackluster? I don’t really think so, Cado potentially bringing some stuff up is probably the most it’d have gotten time. The tantrum being thrown is the story here.
 

spiritfox

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,761
As someone who's in the fanbase, I've pretty much tuned out of the whole affair after the leaks started happening and the Internet exploded. I understand wanting a better game than what Game Freak delivered (I do think it's a flawed, but still decent, game), but it's just tiring to hear the same bad takes over and over again.
 

Hella

Member
Oct 27, 2017
15,124
Being an outside observer to the Pokemon games, I think #Dexit is where the criticism tipped into just being an irate mob. It's like what happened with Mass Effect: Andromeda (or other games I can't think of rn), where people go out of their way to drag it for things that either don't matter or are ignored in other, better-received games. Suddenly, any imperfection or shortfall is more evidence that the game is an affront to the most vulnerable group--gamers.

The discourse around such games gets so caustic that it kinda makes my skin crawl. Toxic fandoms suck.
 

Tygre

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,897
Chesire, UK
The single most frustrating stance a podcast can take about anything controversial is "there's some assholes involved, so we can't have any kind of substantive conversation about this and instead must just close ranks condemning a certain subgroup and move on." It leaves so much unsaid, it ignores so much worthwhile critique, and overall always strikes me as intensely intellectually dishonest. There is such a better conversation we could be having about Pokemon but we never will because the word "dexit" exists.
What makes it doubly annoying is that it's exactly the same "Some Black Bloc guys smashed up a cop car so the entire point of the Ferguson protests and BLM can be dismissed" mindset that the podcast would rightly condemn.

Pokemon is the largest media franchise in the world. It doesn't need defending, and people are justified in having high expectations.

The "quality" of Sword and Shield, as so far demonstrated, is bafflingly poor. Put it next to BotW or Dragon Quest XI or Mario Odyssey or hell even Let's Go! and it just comes off as shoddy and rushed.
 
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Mezentine

Mezentine

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,724
Dexit is dumb, but there's a very real criticism to be made for how the games are increasingly linear and lack challenge, and "they're kids games" doesn't cut it for me. The old games weren't just harder in my memory, I re-played Black and original Gold like two years ago and there was some teeth to those games. I just sort of reject the argument that what kids are really looking for in their Pokemon game is something where they never risk losing
 

Sabas

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,936
I'mma let you all get back to the pokemon talk but Rob's delivery of "It's always time for the big RTS! Grey Goo? Grey Goo was huge! In my... house...hold" killed me.
 

Nora

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,963
The single most frustrating stance a podcast can take about anything controversial is "there's some assholes involved, so we can't have any kind of substantive conversation about this and instead must just close ranks condemning a certain subgroup and move on." It leaves so much unsaid, it ignores so much worthwhile critique, and overall always strikes me as intensely intellectually dishonest. There is such a better conversation we could be having about Pokemon but we never will because the word "dexit" exists.
I feel this so hard. This applies to SO MANY things these days too, Star Wars for example, or Game of Thrones... basically literally anything that causes any kind of backlash. And it's not just Waypoint, it's a lot of people online especially (here too, especially with SW) who'd love nothing more than to paint every critic as a bad actor just so they don't have to grapple with any of the actual criticism. It's the worst shit. And Waypoint does it a looooooooot.
 

Mafro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,226
Austin was bang on during the Pokemon segment *chefkiss* The fanbase really showed its ass during Let's Go and the entitlement around Sword/Shield is pretty pathetic.
 
Oct 25, 2017
128
I haven’t listened to the podcast, but going off previous posts, I wonder if the fear is that an in-depth acknowledgment of the game’s deficiencies would just give more ammo to a hate mob.
 

Tygre

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,897
Chesire, UK
This whole scenario is basically:


I haven’t listened to the podcast, but going off previous posts, I wonder if the fear is that an in-depth acknowledgment of the game’s deficiencies would just give more ammo to a hate mob.
I mean, you only have to watch the GB Quick Look to see how this can be handled well.

Denounce the people engaging in harassment.
Acknowledge and demonstrate the game's objective technical issues.
Explain your additional subjective issues.
 

GLAVONAK

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,628
the "story" difficulty in star: wars: jedi: fallen: order should just have every enemy slice in half with one slash of your laser sword
 

Ojhe

Member
Apr 13, 2018
478
Bronx
Yeah in the beginning when the whole Dexit stuff started happening I was quick to write everyone off. Then the actual amount of missing mons came out and I became rather hesitant about defending these games, then the leaks kept coming and coming. And honestly after playing the game for about 20+ hours now, it's kind of obvious this game was indeed rushed out. Especially when Let's Go, a game that came out a year prior manages to look better to me.


At least people are having their fun with it.
 

deepFlaw

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,776
Having now listened to the rest of the episode, it seems probable that they didn’t even hear about most of the other potential issues to begin with. Which isn’t surprising, since even the leaked stuff I saw by chance on Twitter was still mostly being pushed around in bad faith. And obviously it’d be hard to tell the degree to which a lot of that actually matters (and that includes that things may be worse than expected, not just a non-issue) in the moment till you see it in context.

So since Cado hadn’t actually played it yet, it feels like there’s some more room than I’d originally thought for him to bring things up in the next week or two. Probably depends heavily on how he feels about it while playing it, but you still might get some of the more reasonable criticism brought up. (Fwiw, at least for the dex, I’ve already seen friends talk about now having too many Pokémon to pick from for their teams. Though obviously that’s for the story and not competitively yet.)
 
Oct 25, 2017
128
I mean, you only have to watch the GB Quick Look to see how this can be handled well.

Denounce the people engaging in harassment.
Acknowledge and demonstrate the game's objective technical issues.
Explain your additional subjective issues.
To be clear, I agree. I don’t like Waypoint’s approach here. I was trying to puzzle out what they were doing, but they haven’t even touched the game. So there goes that theory.
 

Mafro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,226
Aside from the boring as fuck main character, Austin's line about now he's never seen so many people no-sell a lightsaber hit is one of the things putting me off Fallen Order. It looks so dumb.
 

Humanity

Member
Aug 31, 2019
69
I found the entire conversation around DONTNODs new game with a transgender protagonist to be really weird. It seems like the developer has taken every precaution to make sure this topic is handled well and yet it seems like the team at Waypoint are all ready to condemn it for not trying hard enough before they've even seen a trailer. Then Austin goes in even deeper stating how him and a subset of likeminded critics will basically never be satisfied by any of these efforts,, and they will be lamenting how the game failed them when the general public will think it is good and progressive. The idea that the public is just not smart enough to see through how basic the approach is, and that they don't know about all these independent artists that are doing this way better - it just seems like you've lost your way a bit. IF you're so far down the rabbit hole then your opinion starts to lose any meaning when it is addressed specifically to other critics and not the actual consumer. I mean I guess it's fine for a podcast with people just making small talk but you can't help but feel like suddenly you're being talked down to.
 

deepFlaw

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,776
I found the entire conversation around DONTNODs new game with a transgender protagonist to be really weird. It seems like the developer has taken every precaution to make sure this topic is handled well and yet it seems like the team at Waypoint are all ready to condemn it for not trying hard enough before they've even seen a trailer. Then Austin goes in even deeper stating how him and a subset of likeminded critics will basically never be satisfied by any of these efforts,, and they will be lamenting how the game failed them when the general public will think it is good and progressive. The idea that the public is just not smart enough to see through how basic the approach is, and that they don't know about all these independent artists that are doing this way better - it just seems like you've lost your way a bit. IF you're so far down the rabbit hole then your opinion starts to lose any meaning when it is addressed specifically to other critics and not the actual consumer. I mean I guess it's fine for a podcast with people just making small talk but you can't help but feel like suddenly you're being talked down to.
I don’t think the point there is about how “smart” people are?

With the reasonable assumption that it will have at least some issues - because very little, if anything, handles topics like this perfectly, and anything that works perfectly for one person may hurt another besides - it seemed like a fair description of how it could be received. You’ll have the general public praising it, ignorant of any missteps or their degree if not outright defensive of them; we see this with TV shows all the time. But you’ll also have fans - including trans people - who understand the issues but feel it still connects for them enough that they enjoy it overall. And then you’re going to have some more left-leaning critics (and some of them will be trans themselves) who will examine it more thoroughly, and may find that the issues breaks the entire thing for them. That’s not to say that they’re “smarter”, just that as critics they have to be, well, more critical than they may be otherwise. Though if the issues are small enough, it’s quite possible that the third group is much smaller and those critics do still end up effectively in the second group (or something like it), etc.

I also want to say that this feeling really is happening already, and not at all unique to them or unfair to voice- the live reaction I saw on Twitter to the announcement was generally the same level of skepticism, frankly mostly harsher than they were. Saw some questioning if GLAAD was even really the best place to consult with on trans issues specifically, for example. The fact that they keep pushing this as a selling point didn’t help.

And personally, now hearing the actual concept from the podcast, I think it’s pretty fair to be wary. Prominently featuring (and advertising) a trans character is already a big undertaking. A story that seemingly involves you frequently seeing them at various times pre-transition, and making choices that sound like they could change how their family reacts to that, is an even bigger one. I would be very pleasantly surprised if they nail that, or manage to make the choices around it equally satisfying even if the result is uncomfortable.
 

SirDancelot

Member
Oct 29, 2017
14
Yeah this line really rubbed me the wrong may. It’s basically saying that the reactionary right will dogpile for addressing inclusivity, and the reactionary left will never be satisfied so at a certain point if I were a dev taking a risk it would feel like “why bother?”. I think it’s fair to be skeptical but to essentially write it off before the trailer even drops kinda sucks.

I found the entire conversation around DONTNODs new game with a transgender protagonist to be really weird. It seems like the developer has taken every precaution to make sure this topic is handled well and yet it seems like the team at Waypoint are all ready to condemn it for not trying hard enough before they've even seen a trailer. Then Austin goes in even deeper stating how him and a subset of likeminded critics will basically never be satisfied by any of these efforts,, and they will be lamenting how the game failed them when the general public will think it is good and progressive. The idea that the public is just not smart enough to see through how basic the approach is, and that they don't know about all these independent artists that are doing this way better - it just seems like you've lost your way a bit. IF you're so far down the rabbit hole then your opinion starts to lose any meaning when it is addressed specifically to other critics and not the actual consumer. I mean I guess it's fine for a podcast with people just making small talk but you can't help but feel like suddenly you're being talked down to.
 

PBalfredo

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,845
I find it strange how much umbrage they seem to take with DONTNOD's statement. Boiling it down to "they're advertising a trans character as a back-of-the-box feature" seems like drawing water from the same well as those who go "they're only including an LGBT/PoC/female character to get those woke dollars". As if that's the gold rush companies are chasing, as opposed to just being a subject matter the developers are interested in, especially considering DONTNOD's previous works, which even if not perfect, seem to be done in good faith. Their statement reads to me to be much more "We know this is a tricky subject, but here's how we're taking the steps to (hopefully) get this right", so to be taken to task for that, sight unseen, just seems overly defensive.
 

Antiwhippy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,581
Yeah this Pokemon conversation is pretty poorly handled honestly. And I'm one of the few who actually liked what I saw of sword and shield. Also honestly incredibly condescending in ways that aren't any better than the dexiteers or whatever they're called.
 

Khanimus

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
16,459
Greater Vancouver
Yeah this line really rubbed me the wrong may. It’s basically saying that the reactionary right will dogpile for addressing inclusivity, and the reactionary left will never be satisfied so at a certain point if I were a dev taking a risk it would feel like “why bother?”. I think it’s fair to be skeptical but to essentially write it off before the trailer even drops kinda sucks.
It isn't a matter of "why bother?" It's a matter of who is telling that story, and are they just passing off that information as second-hand experiences, or is it from a place of nuanced understanding. There are a lot more pitfalls around how someone presents a trans character, especially when they're advertising the game off the back of that to say "look at what we're doing."
 

Joeku

Member
Oct 26, 2017
16,575
It isn't a matter of "why bother?" It's a matter of who is telling that story, and are they just passing off that information as second-hand experiences, or is it from a place of nuanced understanding. There are a lot more pitfalls around how someone presents a trans character, especially when they're advertising the game off the back of that to say "look at what we're doing."
In some regards they kind of have to do that "back of the box" thing if they are including a main trans character at all. If they presented a broad story summary that included that one of the two siblings is trans and then nothing else, people would be asking a thousand questions. By immediately explaining the GLAAD thing and how much they want to "get it right" they're getting in front of it.
 

Humanity

Member
Aug 31, 2019
69
I don’t think the point there is about how “smart” people are?

With the reasonable assumption that it will have at least some issues - because very little, if anything, handles topics like this perfectly, and anything that works perfectly for one person may hurt another besides - it seemed like a fair description of how it could be received. You’ll have the general public praising it, ignorant of any missteps or their degree if not outright defensive of them; we see this with TV shows all the time. But you’ll also have fans - including trans people - who understand the issues but feel it still connects for them enough that they enjoy it overall. And then you’re going to have some more left-leaning critics (and some of them will be trans themselves) who will examine it more thoroughly, and may find that the issues breaks the entire thing for them. That’s not to say that they’re “smarter”, just that as critics they have to be, well, more critical than they may be otherwise. Though if the issues are small enough, it’s quite possible that the third group is much smaller and those critics do still end up effectively in the second group (or something like it), etc.

I also want to say that this feeling really is happening already, and not at all unique to them or unfair to voice- the live reaction I saw on Twitter to the announcement was generally the same level of skepticism, frankly mostly harsher than they were. Saw some questioning if GLAAD was even really the best place to consult with on trans issues specifically, for example. The fact that they keep pushing this as a selling point didn’t help.

And personally, now hearing the actual concept from the podcast, I think it’s pretty fair to be wary. Prominently featuring (and advertising) a trans character is already a big undertaking. A story that seemingly involves you frequently seeing them at various times pre-transition, and making choices that sound like they could change how their family reacts to that, is an even bigger one. I would be very pleasantly surprised if they nail that, or manage to make the choices around it equally satisfying even if the result is uncomfortable.
By smart I mean the sentiment that the general public will not be able to tell the difference between good representation and poor representation because of their lack of in-depth knowledge about niche artists tackling these issues on a much deeper level. This very much is painting with a very broad brush. As Rob started to say before Austin promptly cut him off, it seems like the developer is working on this project with as much good faith as you can in this industry. It’s important to note that this will be a somewhat higher profile release backed by a major publisher and not another niche indie visual novel. To be hyper critical right out the gate seems rough.
 
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Mezentine

Mezentine

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,724
By smart I mean the sentiment that the general public will not be able to tell the difference between good representation and poor representation because of their lack of in-depth knowledge about niche artists tackling these issues on a much deeper level. This very much is painting with a very broad brush. As Rob started to say before Austin promptly cut him off, it seems like the developer is working on this project with as much good faith as you can in this industry. It’s important to note that this will be a somewhat higher profile release backed by a major publisher and not another niche indie visual novel. To be hyper critical right out the gate seems rough.
Well...yes and no. The most good faith that you can pursue a product like this in is to bring on people of the represented identity and give them creative power over the work. That a standard that's that basic isn't actually all that necessarily common when it comes to stuff like this is part of the indictment that I think they were getting to on the podcast.
 

deepFlaw

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,776
Well...yes and no. The most good faith that you can pursue a product like this in is to bring on people of the represented identity and give them creative power over the work. That a standard that's that basic isn't actually all that necessarily common when it comes to stuff like this is part of the indictment that I think they were getting to on the podcast.
Right. That’s the context of the reaction I saw to this on Twitter. It’s not that they’re making a game about a trans character at all, it’s specifically doing so without a trans writer/co-writer.

And as always, this reaction happens in a wider context of previous discussions/incidents/discourse/whatever around representation both in media and the people creating that media.

I find it strange how much umbrage they seem to take with DONTNOD's statement. Boiling it down to "they're advertising a trans character as a back-of-the-box feature" seems like drawing water from the same well as those who go "they're only including an LGBT/PoC/female character to get those woke dollars". As if that's the gold rush companies are chasing, as opposed to just being a subject matter the developers are interested in, especially considering DONTNOD's previous works, which even if not perfect, seem to be done in good faith. Their statement reads to me to be much more "We know this is a tricky subject, but here's how we're taking the steps to (hopefully) get this right", so to be taken to task for that, sight unseen, just seems overly defensive.
They specifically advertised it (and I believe repeatedly?) as having “the first playable videogame hero from a major studio or publisher who is also transgender“, etc. That’s what was being focused on, not just that it had a trans character to begin with or that they mentioned the consulting.

I don’t think it’s cynical to read that line as being marketing. And it can, of course, be something that is unrelated to any decisions behind making the game. It’s just not making a great first impression for some people.
 

Humanity

Member
Aug 31, 2019
69
Well...yes and no. The most good faith that you can pursue a product like this in is to bring on people of the represented identity and give them creative power over the work. That a standard that's that basic isn't actually all that necessarily common when it comes to stuff like this is part of the indictment that I think they were getting to on the podcast.
This is where the argument stems forth from - expectations. While some are already grumbling because they did not shoot for the moon by hiring outside trans writers to work on their team, others are happy that we’re making baby steps into popularizing this type of story in the first place. These things take time and it’s going to take a lot more of it before we start seeing these stories as the norm rather than a rare exception so it seems counter productive to instantly go on the defensive when they don’t tick off all the checkboxes.
 

Terin

Member
Oct 31, 2017
116
This is where the argument stems forth from - expectations. While some are already grumbling because they did not shoot for the moon by hiring outside trans writers to work on their team, others are happy that we’re making baby steps into popularizing this type of story in the first place. These things take time and it’s going to take a lot more of it before we start seeing these stories as the norm rather than a rare exception so it seems counter productive to instantly go on the defensive when they don’t tick off all the checkboxes.
I don't think asking companies to have marginalized people create stories about marginalized groups is "shooting for the moon", nor the concerns raised on the episode being them "instantly going on the defensive". I think Patrick said that he trusts DONTNOD more than most at trying to tackle this sort of thing, and that it'll probably be worthwhile, but by just using consultants it increases the chance that they'll make some major missteps, or just not write something true to that trans experience.
 

Nora

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,963
Yeah I don't want to cast aspersions on the actual product before it's out. Could be good, could be bad. But it definitely seems to lean into the "being queer is painful, traumatizing, and suffering" angle, which is very much Dontnod's wheelhouse, and that has its own issues. I haven't listened to the Waypoint pod though, I'm not enjoying it as much lately. Austin cutting people off is getting to me a bit.

But it's fair to take them to task for not including trans people in the writer's room. That's a bare minimum. If you're not including them in the creative process, it can be fairly seen as making money off of trans suffering. I hope the voice actor is a trans man at the VERY least.

This is also why a lot of the characterization in Before the Storm, and the relationship between Chloe and Rachel, feels more grounded in many ways than LiS1. They had an actual diverse writer's room, it wasn't just written by a bunch of middle-aged dudes. A diverse writer's room will make your art better, full stop.
 

FaulPern

Member
Dec 1, 2017
245
Switzerland
The single most frustrating stance a podcast can take about anything controversial is "there's some assholes involved, so we can't have any kind of substantive conversation about this and instead must just close ranks condemning a certain subgroup and move on." It leaves so much unsaid, it ignores so much worthwhile critique, and overall always strikes me as intensely intellectually dishonest. There is such a better conversation we could be having about Pokemon but we never will because the word "dexit" exists.
To be fair those assholes are pretty loud, and they are disguising their harassment as criticism.
 

Brakke

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,400
Well...yes and no. The most good faith that you can pursue a product like this in is to bring on people of the represented identity and give them creative power over the work. That a standard that's that basic isn't actually all that necessarily common when it comes to stuff like this is part of the indictment that I think they were getting to on the podcast.
Of course, Waypoint once did bring bring in a trans person for that Christmas fanfic project and that didn’t “succeed” on any kind of axis. So even if bringing on people of the represented identity is necessary, it’s not sufficient.
 

Patapuf

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,145
I appreaciated them just going "fuck it" and discussing the Hell Drinking Game indepth.

I sympathize with not wanting to be spoiled but especially for games where the narrative is important and that are unlikely to get discussed again it's a better conversation.
 

ArjanN

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,015
Yeah, that was a good one, I found Austin's superhero origin story on that podcast explained a lot about him.

To be fair those assholes are pretty loud, and they are disguising their harassment as criticism.
Also, if we're being super duper honest, the actual issues with Pokemon aren't really that interesting a story.