Waypoint+ |OT| "Fuck Capitalism, Go Home"

[hankenta]

I thought it was weird that they kept slamming Coffee Talk for not being something it didn't seem like they were even trying. Their main points about the game seemed warranted, like the weird race stuff, but they kept going on about how it failed as a coffee shop AU. I don't know anything about the game other than this podcast, so I don't know if the game has a history as a AU thing.

The coffe shop I frequent btw is exactly that kind of place that they didn't believe exist. With a bar style setup where customers talk with the baristas. It is kind of unusual though. It seems like the game is going for that type of place, and not the Starbucks conveyor belt type of coffee place.

Also, the whole coffee shop au thing is either something I completely missed or is something really specifically North American

Like not even the au bit of it, just this experience of coffee shops

Click to shrink...

It's a fandom thing, like high school AU. I used to see it a lot when I did fanart on Tumblr. I even made a Breakfast Club drawing with Dota characters.

 

[Jintor]

Yeah but the fandom thing must presumably have roots in real life experiences. East Coast Australia is, like, cafe culture central but none of those vibes are anything like what they were talking about.

It was kind of funny to hear Austin kind of derisively talk about a 'cat that turned into an 18 year old pop idol, because that's a thing' because that's the kind of thing I wouldn't even look twice at if it came up in FATT

 

[Joeku]

Yeah but the fandom thing must presumably have roots in real life experiences. East Coast Australia is, like, cafe culture central but none of those vibes are anything like what they were talking about.

It was kind of funny to hear Austin kind of derisively talk about a 'cat that turned into an 18 year old pop idol, because that's a thing' because that's the kind of thing I wouldn't even look twice at if it came up in FATT

Click to shrink...

Funny enough my biggest takeaway was that it sounded like Austin could have said the exact same sentences he used when describing the game but in a higher register and with a positive tone and he would have loved it. "There's a cat that turns into an 18 year-old Pop Idol, because that's a thing!"

 

[GSR]

i completely understand the critiques of the discussion but also "an in-depth discussion of coffee shop aus and how they differ from this game" is 1000% my shit

gita is so good and i'm so glad she's on the podcast now

 

[Jintor]

i don't doubt them that coffee talk isn't all that because i've heard similar things around, it's just funny. glad cook serve delicious is getting a good rap tho

 

[Charlotte Lucas]

i aggressively avoid coffee shop aus. really i avoid any au whose setting is wildly divergent from the source but they made coffee aus sound so fun

 

[SpartyCrunch]

I need Waypoint to discuss this. Maybe a whole Lore Reasons.

Lair of the Clockwork God launches with a surprise prequel

Lair of the Clockwork God, the next title by Size Five Games, is due to launch only next week - but developer Dan Marsh…

www.eurogamer.net

 

[Perkin_Warbeck]

Getting pretty deep into Battletech. For this I blame Austin and Rob. I've never really been into mech stuff (with the exception being Xenogears).

 

[spiritfox]

One of us
One of us
One of us

 

[Avengers23]

Getting pretty deep into Battletech. For this I blame Austin and Rob. I've never really been into mech stuff (with the exception being Xenogears).

Click to shrink...

Welcome to the Inner Sphere, friend.

 

[Jintor]

new kingdon hearts dark road info! It's uhhh union x i guess?

anyway lore reasons never stops

 

[Salarians]

union key?

 

[j.walterweatherman]

Union Chai

 

[deepFlaw]

unchained chi, union cross

 

[GlassEmpires]

unchained chi and union chi are the chaos and law forms of chicago

 

[Salty Catfish]

The bit about Tom Nook as Howard from Uncut Gems fucking killed me lol. I can't stop picturing KG as an Animal Crossing character now.

 

[Salarians]

god I am so glad Gita is on this podcast

 

[Avengers23]

I've really enjoyed the energy and voice that Gita has brought to the show.

We need more Rob x Gita though.

 

[Joeku]

god I am so glad Gita is on this podcast

Click to shrink...

She is fantastic.

 

[spiritfox]

Fucking where is my Style Savvy Switch

 

[goblin]

Gita is so wonderful on the podcast. Finally someone since Danika left who can casually mention crushing on Legato Bluesummers. Her recent Waypoint opinion piece about Covet Fashion was fantastic, too, and I love how she describes the feeling of being drawn to and simultaneously very repelled by the fashion industry.

Rob talking about his dog's genius level canine intelligence in an ad, should've named her Mort.

 

[Deleted member 203]

Did Rob ever get around to Disco Elysium? I loved the spoilercast but wished he was on it. I love hearing Rob talk about... pretty much anything.

 

[Shinogu]

Gita is so wonderful on the podcast. Finally someone since Danika left who can casually mention crushing on Legato Bluesummers. Her recent Waypoint opinion piece about Covet Fashion was fantastic, too, and I love how she describes the feeling of being drawn to and simultaneously very repelled by the fashion industry.

Rob talking about his dog's genius level canine intelligence in an ad, should've named her Mort.

Click to shrink...

Rob revealing his dog's name was Mina, then Austin gradually working out it came from the Minotaur of the labyrinth, and finally Gita going "YOU FUCKING NERDS" was the Trifecta of Perfection I didn't know I needed from my games coverage personalities.

 

[GlassEmpires]

i'm apprehensive about gita. i mean, is her boyfriend even real? realer than her love of fallout boy?

 

[Mafro]

It's so good having two black people on a gaming podcast.

 

[Hella]

I finally thought to look it up so now I can finally say

OH. ALTERNATE UNIVERSE, OF COURSE. A coffee shop AU!

 

[Sabas]

that's awesome!

 

[Salarians]

I can't believe someone who used to have an lis avatar didn't know about aus

 

[Deleted member 203]

i tried some fics but I can't fuck with it. but i did know what they are

 

[Jintor]

The crew seemingly forgot that the southern hemisphere actually exists instead of just being an option for northerners to flip their in game weather

 

[bomma man]

The crew seemingly forgot that the southern hemisphere actually exists instead of just being an option for northerners to flip their in game weather

Click to shrink...

a m e r i c a n s

 

[hat_hair]

When will they let me make an equatorial Animal Crossing where it's just one season all year round?
(Or a UK one where it just rains)

 

[GlassEmpires]

i've never played animal crossing long enough to experience more than a singular type of weather/climate

 

[fuzzyset]

Something been brewing in my mind, and Patrick's Cyberpunk article brought it to the forefront of my brain. It always rubs me slightly wrong when the crew (and other podcasts/discussions) note that games on Gamepass are "free", e.g "Outer Wilds is free on Gamepass" vs "Outer Wilds is on Gamepass". It just strikes me as completely de-valuing the work at hand. Maybe it's too pedantic of me, but Waypoint obviously always strives to put labor at the front of their discussions. "I should have access to any future copy of this game" make it seem like there is zero effort involved in porting games (I know he briefly mentioned he's aware the effort is non-zero), or games are only worth playing when they are "free". It seems like a race to the bottom of "hours per dollar" that will end poorly.

 

[Hella]

Lore Reasons

You need to reply to this thread in order to see this content.

Something been brewing in my mind, and Patrick's Cyberpunk article brought it to the forefront of my brain. It always rubs me slightly wrong when the crew (and other podcasts/discussions) note that games on Gamepass are "free", e.g "Outer Wilds is free on Gamepass" vs "Outer Wilds is on Gamepass". It just strikes me as completely de-valuing the work at hand. Maybe it's too pedantic of me, but Waypoint obviously always strives to put labor at the front of their discussions. "I should have access to any future copy of this game" make it seem like there is zero effort involved in porting games (I know he briefly mentioned he's aware the effort is non-zero), or games are only worth playing when they are "free". It seems like a race to the bottom of "hours per dollar" that will end poorly.

Click to shrink...

I think the whole "it's free" lingo is just a shorthand for "on a subscription service I'm already paying for". Services like Xbox Live uhh... Plus or whatever it's called, and Playstation Plus have entrenched the notion of "free" games while you subscribe; similarly, on PC, Humble Monthly and Origin Access have been doing the same, albeit without the core benefit of console subscription services (namely, access to multiplayer).

It jumps out at me when folks phrase it like that as well, but I think it's just growing pains as everyone becomes comfortable with such services. Eventually "free" will become "on the service", as the service itself becomes part of the lingo. (It also doesn't help that Game Pass has like three or four tiers with virtually the same name, making any discussion around them really clumsy.)

 

[bomma man]

I think it's a bit odd that they'd uncritically embrace the framing that the companies that run these services probably love them using.

 

[Jintor]

happy that austin was talking good stuff about Rune Factory 4

 

[Jintor]

Happy that there's a outer wilds spoiler cast and it's two hours long. Right into my veins

 

[GSR]

eager for and yet slightly dreading this pod because Outer Wilds is one of those games that honestly makes me go "shit, how on earth will I ever make something one-hundredth as affecting and well-made as this"

(obviously it was developed by an entire team, but still)

 

[Unclebenny]

Something been brewing in my mind, and Patrick's Cyberpunk article brought it to the forefront of my brain. It always rubs me slightly wrong when the crew (and other podcasts/discussions) note that games on Gamepass are "free", e.g "Outer Wilds is free on Gamepass" vs "Outer Wilds is on Gamepass". It just strikes me as completely de-valuing the work at hand. Maybe it's too pedantic of me, but Waypoint obviously always strives to put labor at the front of their discussions. "I should have access to any future copy of this game" make it seem like there is zero effort involved in porting games (I know he briefly mentioned he's aware the effort is non-zero), or games are only worth playing when they are "free". It seems like a race to the bottom of "hours per dollar" that will end poorly.

Click to shrink...

The thing that always bothers me about anything relate to CD Projeckt Red (this is a wider phenomenon, they are just the masters) is how they play into "we are for the gamers" as a marketing tool.

So, take this free upgrade to a series X version. You should never have to pay for the same game twice. Unless you want it on the Switch of course. Patrick does mention this to be fair and speaks about how easy it is to dismiss the costs.

When The Witcher 3 released they played a similar hand, including a note thanking all the fans for buying the game. It was all over Reddit when the game came out.

I'm not saying all this is disingenuous but it is blatantly as much a marketing tool as appropriating "woke" culture. It never gets called out and CD Projeckt have developed rabid fanbase who will engage the harassment engines for any perceived slight against them. There's even a meme specifically referencing how rabid it's fanbase are about the quality of the game.

Now I see "we should get all the versions of a game if I have paid for it once" despite it completely ignoring the work that goes into porting. CD Projeckt can take this hit because they are a massive now. Smaller developers, not so much.

I suppose I just really don't like the way CD Projeckt froth up the worst parts of our community.

 

[AncientReptileBrain]

The crew seemingly forgot that the southern hemisphere actually exists instead of just being an option for northerners to flip their in game weather

Click to shrink...

Lmao, I noticed this too. Super weird

 

[Salarians]

seeing this thread gave me a longing for spookin with scoops

DreadOut 2 (Indonesian Fatal Frame-like horror game SEQUEL) now out.

*pulls up cellphone for the millionth time* Think you know how this game'll go like? Ha-ha-ha. Well, if you've played the first one already, you do. But if you haven't, then do so..!! It's a hidden gem that should be way more popular... if it were more polished and had less jank, that is...

www.resetera.com

 

[fuzzyset]

So, take this free upgrade to a series X version. You should never have to pay for the same game twice. Unless you want it on the Switch of course. Patrick does mention this to be fair and speaks about how easy it is to dismiss the costs.

Click to shrink...

See, I just don't understand how that can or should be true unless the conversation around game costs change. Again, it just seems, to me, that a ton of conversation around gaming centers around "I want to pay 10$ and be entertained for 100hrs", anything else is a waste of time/money. Maybe I'm just getting hung up on this for no reason. But, it just rubs me the wrong way to see so many conversations around gaming (Pokemon/Dexit, ports, etc) minimize the labor involved in shipping a game.

Now I see "we should get all the versions of a game if I have paid for it once" despite it completely ignoring the work that goes into porting. CD Projeckt can take this hit because they are a massive now. Smaller developers, not so much.

Click to shrink...

Now the problem with that, is this is Market Dominance 101. EA/CDPR/etc can take the "hit" as you say, but not every developer can as you say. Companies (like Uber/Amazon/etc) always use their market position to undersell competitors to push them out, then change tactics once the competition is gone. If "gamers" expect any future version of a game to be free, that puts an extreme squeeze on smaller teams. I think of a game like Stardew Valley. That game was developed in XNA (aka a game engine for PC/Xbox 360). It took a lot of resources for ports of that game (to PS4/mobile/etc) to happen. Why shouldn't he charge for it?

 

[Patapuf]

The thing that always bothers me about anything relate to CD Projeckt Red (this is a wider phenomenon, they are just the masters) is how they play into "we are for the gamers" as a marketing tool.

So, take this free upgrade to a series X version. You should never have to pay for the same game twice. Unless you want it on the Switch of course. Patrick does mention this to be fair and speaks about how easy it is to dismiss the costs.

When The Witcher 3 released they played a similar hand, including a note thanking all the fans for buying the game. It was all over Reddit when the game came out.

I'm not saying all this is disingenuous but it is blatantly as much a marketing tool as appropriating "woke" culture. It never gets called out and CD Projeckt have developed rabid fanbase who will engage the harassment engines for any perceived slight against them. There's even a meme specifically referencing how rabid it's fanbase are about the quality of the game.

Now I see "we should get all the versions of a game if I have paid for it once" despite it completely ignoring the work that goes into porting. CD Projeckt can take this hit because they are a massive now. Smaller developers, not so much.

I suppose I just really don't like the way CD Projeckt froth up the worst parts of our community.

Click to shrink...

CD Projekt has always been generous with their customers though.

All upgrades to the first 2 Witcher games were free. And those were massive reworks of the whole game (and tbf, the games needed it). And they were by no means a big company back then.

They've also given you free GOG keys if you own the game steam, etc.

The stuff they include in normal retail versions of the game was also a lot compared to what other publishers do.

Of course this is also self serving. But coming from a country that was almost all piracy 20-30 years ago, good customer service is how they managed to build up their company selling legit games. First as a small publisher and later also as a dev.


This free upgrade on xbox seems to have more to do with the Series X being even more PC like than previous consoles. And MS in general being big on forward and backwards compability. On PC free upgrades to keep games compatible are very much expected. Not every publisher does it, but most do. And that's for devs of all sizes.

Edit: I get being cynical about the whole " for the player" spiel. But CDP has mostly also executed on that promise so far. It hasn't been all talk.

 

[Unclebenny]

CD Projekt has always been generous with their customers though.

All upgrades to the first 2 Witcher games were free. And those were massive reworks of the whole game (and tbf, the games needed it). And they were by no means a big company back then.

They've also given you free GOG keys if you own the game steam, etc.

The stuff they include in normal retail versions of the game was also a lot compared to what other publishers do.

Of course this is also self serving. But coming from a country that was almost all piracy 20-30 years ago, good customer service is how they managed to build up their company selling legit games. First as a small publisher and later also as a dev.


This free upgrade on xbox seems to have more to do with the Series X being even more PC like than previous consoles. And MS in general being big on forward and backwards compability. On PC free upgrades to keep games compatible are very much expected. Not every publisher does it, but most do. And that's for devs of all sizes.

Edit: I get being cynical about the whole " for the player" spiel. But CDP has mostly also executed on that promise so far. It hasn't been all talk.

Click to shrink...

As I said, I don't think this is an entirely disingenuous stance. As you say, they have a history of giving away a decent amount of stuff for free and they make good games that a lot of people love.

You know what they also do, have a repeatedly transphobic twitter presence, almost glory in their reliance on crunch and release games in states where they need major overhaul patches in the first few months (I actually don't care about this last one but it makes a lot of people very angry at other studios).

My issue is that the gamer-zeal marketing helps cover the bad stuff. Whereas, say EA has exactly the opposite problem, everyone hates them and they can do literally no right. Obviously some of this is earned but then they actually respect their workers time and have been stringent in promoting LGBTQ in their games.

So, I don't want to come across as cynical for the sake of it, I just think CD Projekt shouldn't get as easy a ride as they do because they gave away some free DLC. Certainly when this is nakedly part of the aim of their PR.

 

[Unclebenny]

See, I just don't understand how that can or should be true unless the conversation around game costs change. Again, it just seems, to me, that a ton of conversation around gaming centers around "I want to pay 10$ and be entertained for 100hrs", anything else is a waste of time/money. Maybe I'm just getting hung up on this for no reason. But, it just rubs me the wrong way to see so many conversations around gaming (Pokemon/Dexit, ports, etc) minimize the labor involved in shipping a game.

Click to shrink...

I absolutely agree that value of games is devalued to an absurd extent. People will unironically say they only got a dozen or so hours entertainment out of a game and it is therefore not worth X amount.

Part of this stems from the ridiculous influence the audience have over developers, which I think that CD Projekt is encouraging [hence my moaning].

I suppose this also a wider societal issue where the internet has made it seem like entertainment pops into our lives with little effort and almost zero investment.

Now the problem with that, is this is Market Dominance 101. EA/CDPR/etc can take the "hit" as you say, but not every developer can as you say. Companies (like Uber/Amazon/etc) always use their market position to undersell competitors to push them out, then change tactics once the competition is gone. If "gamers" expect any future version of a game to be free, that puts an extreme squeeze on smaller teams. I think of a game like Stardew Valley. That game was developed in XNA (aka a game engine for PC/Xbox 360). It took a lot of resources for ports of that game (to PS4/mobile/etc) to happen. Why shouldn't he charge for it?

Click to shrink...

Yes, exactly. The Cyberpunk announcement could have been made without putting a load of expectations on other developers. That's why I get upset. It's not just "we are doing a nice thing for our customers", instead we get "you are GAMERS, you should expect this".

 

[Patapuf]

As I said, I don't think this is an entirely disingenuous stance. As you say, they have a history of giving away a decent amount of stuff for free and they make good games that a lot of people love.

You know what they also do, have a repeatedly transphobic twitter presence, almost glory in their reliance on crunch and release games in states where they need major overhaul patches in the first few months (I actually don't care about this last one but it makes a lot of people very angry at other studios).

My issue is that the gamer-zeal marketing helps cover the bad stuff. Whereas, say EA has exactly the opposite problem, everyone hates them and they can do literally no right. Obviously some of this is earned but then they actually respect their workers time and have been stringent in promoting LGBTQ in their games.

So, I don't want to come across as cynical for the sake of it, I just think CD Projekt shouldn't get as easy a ride as they do because they gave away some free DLC. Certainly when this is nakedly part of the aim of their PR.

Click to shrink...

I agree that CDP is not beyond reproach but aside from the transphobia, I don't think the issues you mentioned are something CDP is uniquely getting a pass over.

Crunch is rampant in the whole industry. And for the most part, gamers don't care. They did get shit over the releases of witcher 1 and 2 btw. deservedly so. And the witcher 3 downgrade was a huge topic and certainly didnt get ignored.

 

[Unclebenny]

I agree that CDP is not beyond reproach but aside from the transphobia, I don't think the issues you mentioned are something CDP is uniquely getting a pass over.

Crunch is rampant in the whole industry. And for the most part, gamers don't care. They did get shit over the releases of witcher 1 and 2 btw. deservedly so. And the witcher 3 downgrade was a huge topic and certainly didnt get ignored.

Click to shrink...

The behavior I'm trying to high light, I suppose, is that of the hardcore gamer crowd. Certainly I know they got criticism for those things I mentioned but the general discourse around CD Projeckt is in the majority positive. Part of that is because they have cultivated the idea that they are on the side of "gamers".

That's fine, of course and having watched the Noclip doc on them, it's clear they were founded by enthusiasts. My issue becomes when they are fostering and profiting from the entitled gamer attitude that is souring our spaces so often.

I mentioned in response to another comment that they could have made this announcement without the "all gamers deserve this" spiel. As a major vocal subset of gamers will hold other developers to the same standard.

As you say, they are not the only developers to be criticized for crunch and for that not to matter to a lot of people.

I take real issue with the specifics of their defence, the "we all love the product so much, we all want to work super hard" defence:

"It's especially visible not just in games but in the industries where you work on projects that you are passionate about and you want to deliver something special. Artists, I believe, crunch; movie makers, painters, sculptors and so on... When you create something with passion and you want it to be really, really good, you're willing to go this extra step for it."

This kind of talk, the kind that tries to separate CD Projeckt from many other developers, not only to justify their work practices but also to cement their place as the "one true gamer company" has an actual effect on others.

As I mentioned in my first post, CD Projeckt have a rabid set of fans and their proclamations on how gamers should be treated sets expectations many others can't meet.

As you said, they certainly do get criticism but, for me at least, it never seems to stick. You rarely see anyone mention the downgrade situation these days, you do get plenty of mentions of how every other open world game should aspire to the Witcher 3. Reputations tend to matter more than actions.

I regularly see threads where someone has to step in and remind others that all the Witcher games have required significant post-release patches. That they did not, in fact, completely avoid all problems that all other developers suffer from.

To sum up all this needless ranting, I feel they use positive PR to help whitewash their image. This exploits the gaming communities inability to see any thing other than an Us Vs Them scenario.

 

[SpartyCrunch]

Absolutely loved that Outer Wilds spoilercast! Thank you so much TheCalcutec and everyone else!

 

[MrHedin]

Listening to Outer Wilds talk just makes me realize even more how much I love that game. The music at the beginning of the podcast just brought the feels and then the outro just upped it even more. I'm really interested in seeing how I feel about the game a year from now, I kind of feel like it's going to stick with me longer than even most of my favorite all-time games.