Waypoint |OT| video games...are good

deepFlaw

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,672
I’m pretty sure I finished EoE and immediately watched 1.11 (while barely awake, I remember) either a few hours later or, like, the morning after watching EoE at night...?

I decided to immediately search my old tweets to check (always a bad idea), and didn’t find it, but in the process remembered the most bizarrely terrible official merch I’ve ever seen

I wonder if that store listing still exists...

How much realer can it get than a robot that is

your mom?
“real robot” is like, Gundam, as compared to “super robot”
 

Stolen Sheep

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,971
I think that’s ok. I get it; it’s hard to invest in something when it won’t be done for years to come.

Also, leave the memories about the original alone.
The Rebuild is soooo much better and true to the sentiment of the original rather than constrained or directed by budget issues. After the first film it starts to wildly diverge from the TV show, anyways.


“real robot” is like, Gundam, as compared to “super robot”
i no


Edit: Why did they put the Evangelion stuff in the back half of the show. I hate skippping parts of podcasts but they’ve started out navel gazing about a burger list and Rob having a go at MMA. And now Austin has somehow found a way to wedge Rockstar labour practices into it. Frontload the good stuff. Know your audience.
 
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JimD

Member
Aug 17, 2018
37
Not just Vice. Mic (which I'd never heard of before) is folding, and is a VC backed publisher akin to Vice. That whole market segment is apparently struggling currently. According to Columbia Journalism Review Vice is one of the one's that's better off financially (or was ~6 months ago)
Good point. Reminded me of an excellent thread I saw today about Mic and VCs. https://twitter.com/chronotope/status/1068252017951498241?s=21

VC funding and editorial independence/integrity don’t mix well. Makes me question the long term future of almost anything worthwhile on Vice, Vox, etc.
 

Flipyap

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,207
The Evangelion discussion start around the 45 minute mark, at least in the ad-free version.

Austin probably should have told them to watch the first four episodes because right now they could only talk about the show in the most superficial of terms, with Austin having to give them a half-remembered cliffs notes version of a summary of what the show is actually about.
Episode 4 is where the series begins to explicitly explore Shinji's depression, it's also one of the slowest episodes in the entire series. It's a good preview of where the show is going once it wraps up its action adventure arc halfway through.

The Rebuild is soooo much better and true to the sentiment of the original rather than constrained or directed by budget issues. After the first film it starts to wildly diverge from the TV show, anyways.
The first Rebuild seemed promising before taking a sharp left turn and falling off a cliff with the sequels. That series is now stuck in a ditch, with its themes buried deep under so many stupid gimmicks, I don't think the final movie could possibly reshape it into anything true to the original.
The way in which 2.0 sexualized children felt like an utter betrayal of (what seemed to be) the original's themes. It's seriously upsetting garbage.
 

Stolen Sheep

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,971
The Evangelion discussion start around the 45 minute mark, at least in the ad-free version.

Austin probably should have told them to watch the first four episodes because right now they could only talk about the show in the most superficial of terms, with Austin having to give them a half-remembered cliffs notes version of a summary of what the show is actually about.
Episode 4 is where the series begins to explicitly explore Shinji's depression, it's also one of the slowest episodes in the entire series. It's a good preview of where the show is going once it wraps up its action adventure arc halfway through.


The first Rebuild seemed promising before taking a sharp left turn and falling off a cliff with the sequels. That series is now stuck in a ditch, with its themes buried deep under so many stupid gimmicks, I don't think the final movie could possibly reshape it into anything true to the original.
The way in which 2.0 sexualized children felt like an utter betrayal of (what seemed to be) the original's themes. It's seriously upsetting garbage.
The first film was just a high budget rethread of the TV show. When I say the Rebuild is excellent I’m almost exclusively referring to the second two films as the first is mostly preamble if you’re a returning fan of the series.

Visually and thematically both go in interesting directions and I would have been seriously disappointed had Anno shown reverence to what was in the TV show because that would be the anthetis of the spirit of Eva in so many ways. I absolutely love how diverged the Rebuild is from the show by the end of 3.33. It’s one of the greatest cliffhangers of my lifetime wondering where it will go in the final film.

Sexualisation was in Evangelion since frame one of the TV series. Indeed I think by and large it has been used it to say something, about anime or about the characters in question. I’d say there’s a matter-of-factness to sex in Eva that’s missing in most films and tv shows, let alone anime. I have way more issues with Moe than something like Evangelion because most of that has little point rather than to titilate a very questionable segement of anime fandom.
 

Flipyap

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Oct 25, 2017
1,207
Sexualisation was in Evangelion since frame one of the TV series. Indeed I think by and large it has been used it to say something, about anime or about the characters in question. I’d say there’s a matter-of-factness to sex in Eva that’s missing in most films and tv shows, let alone anime. I have way more issues with Moe than something like Evangelion because most of that has little point rather than to titilate a very questionable segement of anime fandom.
There is a huge difference between how the original contextualized sexualization of Misato and its younger characters.
2.0's treatment of Asuka is exactly what you describe as "moe," it doesn't serve the story, it doesn't affect any of the characters, it's only there to titillate - sometimes with a winking acknowledgment of the creators' perviness, and sometimes just because, devoid of context or reason. It would still be pretty bad (and out of character for the series) if those scenes featured an adult character, but rebooting Asuka into a vehicle for shallow objectification makes the whole thing much more disturbing.
 

Stolen Sheep

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Oct 28, 2017
4,971
Moe is a whole different rung altogether. I can’t get on board with saying Asuka is even approaching Moe.

Objectification we can argue about and anime in general has plenty of it (I’d argue even the movies are far more restrained than many of their peers) but Asuka is largely played and designed to appear older than her age, indeed her entire sense of self is tied up in being in control and mature. Which is actually what makes many of scenes between her and Shinji that involve implied or explicit sexual content a mirror to view both characters rather than simple fanserive.

Moe at its worst is a sort of fetishisation of girls who haven’t even hit puberty.
 

Flipyap

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Oct 25, 2017
1,207
Objectification we can argue about and anime in general has plenty of it (I’d argue even the movies are far more restrained than many of their peers) but Asuka is largely played and designed to appear older than her age, indeed her entire sense of self is tied up in being in control and mature. Which is actually what makes many of scenes between her and Shinji that involve implied or explicit sexual content a mirror to view both characters rather than simple fanserive.
Well, that's the thing, the shots that most aggressively objectify Asuka in 2.0 don't involve her interactions with anyone. It couldn't be more different than the original show's treatment of the character.
They made her wear a transparent fetish gear plugsuit, for Christ's sake.

God I hope they just do an Eva watch
They will, in the spring. They might also watch Shin Godzilla before the show pops up on Netflix.
 

hat_hair

Member
Oct 26, 2017
297
Evangelion and Waypoint discussion thereof spoilers:
Rob: "There's something oddly alive about the Eva."
Austin: "Mmm-hmm"

I am fucking dying of laughter.
 

Patapuf

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Oct 26, 2017
3,414
Eva discussion was fun. Both, because it's a fun show to dicsuss and because Austin wanted to discuss all of it very much.
 

convo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,542
Yeah we need a Eva cast.

All Systems Shinji.
There is much to discuss.
Patrick is usually manifesting way too much of a college frat boy when the jokes about the general topic of anime keep on coming than i'd want to hear about. Bringing up new anime topics to these types of jokers would be too much for me in real life situations, and i commend Austin for having what it takes to do so.
 

Joeku

Member
Oct 26, 2017
12,374
Like I may harp on this anime because I'm into so few of them, but I could do with Waypoint talking about Devilman Crybaby. That thing goes places. And like Eva it's on Netflix so it's easily accessible.

(With the Netflix appearance I'm finally gonna watch Eva and find a new hate for the origins of waifu culture)

Also not surprised the ESA used a creepshot of Natalie for E3. She's photogenic as hell. I remember her posting a string of pictures of her with a large pan she drunkenly ordered from Amazon that was weirdly captivating.
 

Hella

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,651
I'm a few pods behind, but Danielle looking up how to best cure Agent 47's nonlethal takedowns (in Hitman 2) is the most Danielle thing ever. I can't believe she one-upped the Dishonored recovery position stuff, but she did it!
 

convo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,542
If Danika was still here she would know how to have fun with the dumbest bullshit which Austin generaly doesn't care about. Not having fun with G Gundam is a stance to take and i can respect that resolve.
 

Stolen Sheep

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,971
As someone who has basically never watched any anime, I think I might have to watch Eva when it comes to Netflix if Waypoint does a rewatch.
I think only Devilman might be a more incomprehensible entry point to anime. So much of Eva is about how it subverts anime tropes and mech stories and that’s kind of lost on a first time anime viewer.

I’d heavily recommend something more coherent like Full Metal Alchemist Brotherhood be your first entry point, or something mellow-dramatic but incredibly fun like Code Geass if you want an anime that has a mech flavouring to it. It would make Eva more rewarding when you do get around to it.
 
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Brakke

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,967
Nah. Eva was one of the first animes I watched after like Cowboy Bebop and DBZ. I’ve never watched a mech show since except Gurren Lagann unless Attack on Titan counts (it sort of does).

If Eva was just a reaction to mecha, then it would be vapid. If only the character study and the fight choreography and the whacky JRPG Christian apocrypha mysticism and understanding a dozen memes, dayenu.
 

Stolen Sheep

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,971
Nah. Eva was one of the first animes I watched after like Cowboy Bebop and DBZ. I’ve never watched a mech show since except Gurren Lagann unless Attack on Titan counts (it sort of does).

If Eva was just a reaction to mecha, then it would be vapid. If only the character study and the fight choreography and the whacky JRPG Christian apocrypha mysticism and understanding a dozen memes, dayenu.
I’m sorry, but the idea Eva should be anyone’s first anime is absurd.
 
Oct 27, 2017
4,483
"I watched this show when I was 14.........14, 15..."

I see you Austin. You can't hid your instinctive self referential nature.
 

Stolen Sheep

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Oct 28, 2017
4,971
I loooooove Austin’s passion for Eva. You can tell his eyes light up when he starts talking about it. I also enjoyed Danielle’s passion for MMA flowing inbetween Austin and Rob’s tut-tuting about the imperfect state of the sport. Maybe I just love hearing people love things but Waypoint is so much better when they’re talking about something they have a connection with.

If Waypoints was more that than a grab bag of things that appeared in their RSS feeds the last seven days I’d listen every week.
 

Sabas

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,389
Austin describing cowboy bebop as being on his top 5 but also calling it good, not great. I really want to hear them talk about that more, actually
 

Joeku

Member
Oct 26, 2017
12,374
I think only Devilman might be a more incomprehensible entry point to anime. So much of Eva is about how it subverts anime tropes and mech stories and that’s kind of lost on a first time anime viewer.

I’d heavily recommend something more coherent like Full Metal Alchemist Brotherhood be your first entry point, or something mellow-dramatic but incredibly fun like Code Geass if you want an anime that has a mech flavouring to it. It would make Eva more rewarding when you do get around to it.
Why's Devilman a weird starting point? Just cuz it's (either OVAs or Crybaby) so much better than everything else and can't be topped?
 

Stolen Sheep

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Oct 28, 2017
4,971
Why's Devilman a weird starting point? Just cuz it's (either OVAs or Crybaby) so much better than everything else and can't be topped?
I loved Crybaby but it’s weird as fuck even for me and I’m someone who at least has some context for it and what to expect. I can only imagine some poor kid who likes Avatar or MCU films watching it and having their mind blown. I assume that’s exactly what’s going to happen when the hype around Eva hitting Netflix ramps up. I’d be the sort of person who would probably react positively to that sort of insanity but I’d wager that a negative reaction is much more likely if you’re unprepared.

I actually think FMA Brotherhood is probably the most perfect anime I’ve ever watched in terms of gorgeous design, themes that compliment each other and follow through to satisfying conclusions, as well as some fantastically engaging characters, so it’s not like I’m recommending some simple show as a starting point. But it’s a hell of a lot more accessible than Eva or Crybaby and the ramp up to the crazy stuff is far more gradual.

Actually, even though it has some fanservice Gurren Lagan is an absolutely incredible starting point too. It has so much heart and style that I can’t imagine it not winning over many first timers. That mid-season turn still gets me.
 
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Brakke

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,967
I’m sorry, but the idea Eva should be anyone’s first anime is absurd.
Don’t be precious about anime. It’s not some wild, inaccessible media that stands apart. It’s ten hours of a story. People can figure it out. The idea that “first anime” means anything is the silly attitude.

I also read Watchmen as basically my first comic. It’s fine.

The tropes Eva subverts are the tropes I'm generally trying to avoid in the first place. I'll let Waypoint and other analysis provide the context I miss.
Yeah. “Puerile chosen one power fantasies are dishonest” is something you can figure out on your own.
 

Stolen Sheep

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Oct 28, 2017
4,971
Don’t be precious about anime. It’s not some wild, inaccessible media that stands apart. It’s ten hours of a story. People can figure it out. The idea that “first anime” means anything is the silly attitude.

I also read Watchmen as basically my first comic. It’s fine.
I’m anything but precious. You do you but if you think Evagelion is a good entry point for most people I’m still adamant on ‘hell no’.

There’s dozens of better starting shows. I’ve named a few, none of which are even that simple but are far easier to enjoy than a depression-laden trip down not-gonna-explain-that avenue. And this is from someone who’d rank Eva top five easily in my all-time favourite anime shows. I’d only ever recommend it for that purpose if I knew the person was really into something in another medium that’s analogous to it in some way.
 

Brakke

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Oct 27, 2017
2,967
I’m saying you don’t need an “entry point” to anime. That’s the precious part.

It’s not like “play Super Mario World before Red Dead Redemption so you get use to using a controller.” Anime is just tv shows.
 

Stolen Sheep

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Oct 28, 2017
4,971
I’m saying you don’t need an “entry point” to anime. That’s the precious part.

It’s not like “play Super Mario World before Red Dead Redemption so you get use to using a controller.” Anime is just tv shows.
I’m 100% not on board with your premise.

So someone who wants to get into strategy games should start on Crusader Kings and not Civ? What? The first of anything is very important as it can colour your perception of a genre. If someone bounces off Crusader Kings because it’s too impenetrable and never tries Civ even if they’d actually love it, a pretty plausible scenario, that leaves the person poorer for that first experience. First experiences are expectation setters by their very nature.

Christ, look at Dan and Jeff’s 180 on anime this year alone to see how one show can change a perspective. Anime is a cousin to western tv shows. At times a distant one.

The idea all shows, games, music, drinks are good to start people off on something new is absolutely crazy to me. I cannot overstate how strongly I disagree with you on this one.
 

convo

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Oct 25, 2017
1,542
I'd find it racist at this point to call every animation coming out of japan bad when your own childhood cartoons like transformers and the real ghostbusters and Ducktales were animated there.
It usually takes someone unfamiliar with the diverse nature of anime or manga to get them into a topic or theme that reasonates with them and overcome pre-conceived notions of this media being something in their head when it actually is just animation but from a different culture than you're used to. I'd call playing Zelda breath of the wild for the story just playing an anime with an average english dub with the many studio Ghibli movie inspirations.

Dragonball Z has been and has become even more of a Wrestling Show with Super, the dumb callouts and dumb reasons to fight and pure displays of arrogance have really easy wrestling equivalents for Jeff and Dan to dig right in.
 

Brakke

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Oct 27, 2017
2,967
DBZ didn't get Dan into anime. Wrestling and MGS got Dan into DBZ. SpartyCrunch didn't say he's opposed to anime as a form. He already got over the hump of "what if I watch a subtitled cartoon." He'll be fine. He doesn't need the 20-hour homework assignment you gave him.

The idea all shows, games, music, drinks are good to start people off on something new is absolutely crazy to me.
I didn't say this. My example was a case of where ramping up might be helpful. Probably you should also have some mixed drinks a few times before you crack open an $80 bottle of peaty scotch.

But Eva is accessible. It's pop culture. Even when the animation gets abstract for like twenty minutes... If you can handle Donald Duck in Mathemagic Land, you can handle Eva. Abstract imagery isn't the exclusive province of anime. If you've played a JRPG or seen 2001 or anything by David Lynch or Terrence Malick or Darren Aronofsky or any one of a dozen other main-ish-stream directors, you'll be fine.
 

convo

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Oct 25, 2017
1,542
If you've played a JRPG or seen 2001 or anything by David Lynch or Terrence Malick or Darren Aronofsky or any one of a dozen other main-ish-stream directors, you'll be fine.
Especially for the former gamer side.I know a lot of peope have played FF7 or FFX during their childhoods and that means you've seen the bad anime tropes and structure of stereotypical anime stories.
People who have quit games at this point in their lives but are still excited for Kingdom Hearts aren't because it's a bad anime plot but because it's their childhood with Disney and FF characters they love.
 

Jintor

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Oct 25, 2017
13,555
i'm going to test this eva first time theory by introducing it to my housemate who to my knowledge hasn't finished an anime series before. maybe aggretsuko.
 

convo

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Oct 25, 2017
1,542
Introducing anime to first timers is like explaining technology like smartphones to my parents for the last decade for me personally, i refused to do it at some point and they came around to it by themselves without my influence by way of their own peers explaining stuff to them and getting into it because it's part of normal everyday life now.
 

Stolen Sheep

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,971
Introducing anime to first timers is like explaining technology like smartphones to my parents for the last decade for me personally, i refused to do it at some point and they came around to it by themselves without my influence by way of their own peers explaining stuff to them and getting into it because it's part of normal everyday life now.
A world where anime is a part of everyday life is foreign to me. One person I know in the real non cycber surfing world watches anime
 

convo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,542
A world where anime is a part of everyday life is foreign to me. One person I know in the real non cycber surfing world watches anime
I don't usually pay attention outside my purview, but when i do meet younger people who just start with college and will become the new adults influencing the world, they have already seen some obscure shit when it comes to anime. They activeley follow along series they have followed since middle school and there isn't some judgemental issues present that would stop them from doing so what with Popstars admitting their love for anime.
 

shoptroll

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May 29, 2018
872

Bigkrev

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Oct 25, 2017
3,727
A world where anime is a part of everyday life is foreign to me. One person I know in the real non cycber surfing world watches anime
I got asked the dreaded "so, have you watched any anime lately" from a friend I see once a year over thanksgiving break last week. I didn't even realize he watched anime, he just remembered that I did back in High School.
And then, when I'm at Wawa getting gas yesterday, the 3 people working the sandwhich line were all talking about Cowboy Bebop
You also have guys in the NFL like Juju Smith-Schuster doing a Naruto Rasengan when he scored a TD earlier this year.

Wayyyyy more people watch anime than you think. It's just that most of the people who are willing to talk about anime on the internet are either deep in the hobby or the worst humans imaginable
 

convo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,542
Wayyyyy more people watch anime than you think. It's just that most of the people who are willing to talk about anime on the internet are either deep in the hobby or the worst humans imaginable
Exactly. Even fellow students i know who read manga on their tablet usually put it away and not talk about it when others come into the mix because they would find it too awkward to talk about because of some inherent fears about social interactions.
 

Hella

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,651
Should I listen to or skip the Eva section if I haven't seen Eva yet?

I wanna see it on Netflix next year.