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Waypoint |OT| video games...are good

Master_Funk

Member
Oct 25, 2017
630
I been meaning to ask, what has Waypoint's general opinion on Red Dead Redemption 2 been

what has Austin's opinion been on it, i know he was somewhat of a big RDR fan. Did he not like RDR 2?
Austin was easily the highest on that game out of the waypoint crew. I think he stopped at chapter 4 when you enter the city though. The other either didnt like it at all or didn't play it.
 

Mafro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,374
Yeah they dropped off that pretty fast. I remember Austin gushing about it after one of the preview events but other than that I don't think they discussed it much other than the show the week it was out.
 

Rekcut

Member
Nov 4, 2017
21
It is pretty interesting that this conversation never comes up in concerning, say, Baba is You
I mean, the difficulty in baba is you comes from figuring out what your supposed to do to pass a puzzle, not inputting the solution. You can just Google what to do. In a FromSoft game, the difficulty comes from actually having to fight an enemy, which can still be difficult even if you know what your doing. I don't know what the acessability options are like in BiY, but I think it's just a different situation than something like a Souls game.
 

Deputy Dangle

Member
Oct 25, 2017
128
Various members of the crew seemingly bailing on The Missing and RDR2 half way through, at least as pod discussion material, were big bummers for me last year. I so badly want to hear them talk through the final stretches of those games.
 

Joeku

Member
Oct 26, 2017
17,375
Various members of the crew seemingly bailing on The Missing and RDR2 half way through, at least as pod discussion material, were big bummers for me last year. I so badly want to hear them talk through the final stretches of those games.
While RDR2 was a massive game with a large response, the latter parts of the game, the parts where it becomes what it really is, is like 60 hours into the game. That's a lot to ask of people, games press or otherwise. Like, it's the best part of it, and proves the Housers, but still.
 

Deputy Dangle

Member
Oct 25, 2017
128
While RDR2 was a massive game with a large response, the latter parts of the game, the parts where it becomes what it really is, is like 60 hours into the game. That's a lot to ask of people, games press or otherwise. Like, it's the best part of it, and proves the Housers, but still.
Yeah, I can't blame 'em and probably should have expected it with RDR2 after years of hearing them talk about making hard choices based on game length. Even I took a break from it for like a month.
 

Zocano

Member
Oct 26, 2017
974
It might come off as derogatory, but I wish, if they were to discuss a game holistically, that more of them would put the time to actually play through it. I can't (and don't) expect them all to invest 60+ hours to finish RDR to discuss it in its entirety, or all 200 whatever hours of all the Kingdom Hearts games to discuss the series as a whole, but it is kinda frustrating when their default course of action is to just watch a bunch of edited together cutscenes rather than play through the games for these podcasts devoted to each game(s). I don't think any one of them even played the back half of Red Dead Redemption for the 101 podcast.

Which reminds me, I wonder when they are gonna do another 101. They haven't really had any convo about future podcasts at all, especially with the last "just talk about games we've been playing and stuff" podcast being basically 2 weeks ago.
 

Patapuf

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,276
I think "lore reasons" took up the time where they'd do a 101 pod, usually. I'd guess they'll do that next before they tackle another big series to play/watch through for a lore reasons.

I agree with the playing through part though, It kinda worked for RDR because people are familiar with that game but i noticed it most with "shadowrun: dragonfall". Sadly with them doing so many other media podcast on top of keeping up with current stuff, playing through an old, 30+ hour game on top of that is just not going to happen often.
 

Hella

Member
Oct 27, 2017
16,125
i need to rewatch this

so i can shake my head at the poll results for reasons beyond the obvious fascistic overtones


like ~microrant~, lucas makes a series about overthrowing fascists and now wtf is disney doing jfc
 

Joeku

Member
Oct 26, 2017
17,375
The fanfilms were always bad lightsaber fights in the woods instead of political drudgery. Someone in the trailer topic framed it perfectly and I can't find the post now but they said "Star Wars is the most wow_cool_robot.jpg of all" and they were totally right.

 

Rez

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,624
Man, between Lore Reasons and Be Good, Waypoint has been on a roll recently. Really fantastic stuff.

My only complaint is that I wish Danielle was on more of the niche casts.

I worry that this stuff is all so specifically for me that it isn’t going to last long and I’m going to look back on this as the golden days. Maybe a little morbid, but hey... it’s really good!
 

spiritfox

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,794
In regards to Pathway and how problematic it is, I feel like it would have been more interesting if there was a notice or story beat that reveals that the player team was not exactly "good guys".
 

Nora

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,263
Finally got around to listening to the Difficulty Discourse pod the other day. I agree with a lot of it but still find a lot of the framing annoying. It's almost like people talk about it like FromSoft fans are the ones preventing there from being more difficulty/accessibility options or something.

One thing that did stick out to me, which sounded wrong, was when Austin said that it's probably easier for a big studio like From to implement difficulty/accessibility options than for a single dev or a small team. I think it's the opposite. If you're a single dev or small team where there is only one or two gameplay designers, you have your hand in every single system in the game, so you know intuitively how changing one mechanic or system will affect other systems in the game. That's much harder to do when the responsibility for the game's design is stretched across dozens of people, I think.

Towards the end Austin also contradicted himself I think when he said that he thinks it's fine to bounce off a game like Hollow Knight and not view that as a failure. Why isn't that fine for a game like Sekiro then, if people can't or don't want to engage with the game as it is? It's totally fine! Not all art is for everyone. I didn't really like Us because I'm not into horror. Horror is difficult art to engage with for a lot of people, myself included. Doesn't mean I think Jordan Peele should've made it easier to watch for the faint of heart like me.

One thing I wish they'd talked about is that ALL games are ableist to some degree. When does a game offer *enough* accessibility options? When is it not enough? Like, they talked about how every body is different, and how a lot of what disability is is framed by society. But then they didn't make that connection. No matter how many options a dev puts in, any game will always be too hard or impossible for certain people. There's no cure-all. That doesn't mean I don't think devs should try. But certain genres are more ableist than other by definition. Real-time games will always be less accessible than turn-based games, for example. I don't know, I think that's a thing to consider when having this discussion.

At the end of the day I'm all for FromSoft finding clever ways to integrate more accessibility and/or difficulty options in their games, if that's what they choose to do (and as they have done in many ways in Souls games). But I'm also fine with them putting out a game like Sekiro and saying "here's what this thing it, take it or leave it", as a privileged able-bodied person.
 

Minishdriveby

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,795
Finally got around to listening to the Difficulty Discourse pod the other day. I agree with a lot of it but still find a lot of the framing annoying. It's almost like people talk about it like FromSoft fans are the ones preventing there from being more difficulty/accessibility options or something.

One thing that did stick out to me, which sounded wrong, was when Austin said that it's probably easier for a big studio like From to implement difficulty/accessibility options than for a single dev or a small team. I think it's the opposite. If you're a single dev or small team where there is only one or two gameplay designers, you have your hand in every single system in the game, so you know intuitively how changing one mechanic or system will affect other systems in the game. That's much harder to do when the responsibility for the game's design is stretched across dozens of people, I think.

Towards the end Austin also contradicted himself I think when he said that he thinks it's fine to bounce off a game like Hollow Knight and not view that as a failure. Why isn't that fine for a game like Sekiro then, if people can't or don't want to engage with the game as it is? It's totally fine! Not all art is for everyone. I didn't really like Us because I'm not into horror. Horror is difficult art to engage with for a lot of people, myself included. Doesn't mean I think Jordan Peele should've made it easier to watch for the faint of heart like me.

One thing I wish they'd talked about is that ALL games are ableist to some degree. When does a game offer *enough* accessibility options? When is it not enough? Like, they talked about how every body is different, and how a lot of what disability is is framed by society. But then they didn't make that connection. No matter how many options a dev puts in, any game will always be too hard or impossible for certain people. There's no cure-all. That doesn't mean I don't think devs should try. But certain genres are more ableist than other by definition. Real-time games will always be less accessible than turn-based games, for example. I don't know, I think that's a thing to consider when having this discussion.

At the end of the day I'm all for FromSoft finding clever ways to integrate more accessibility and/or difficulty options in their games, if that's what they choose to do (and as they have done in many ways in Souls games). But I'm also fine with them putting out a game like Sekiro and saying "here's what this thing it, take it or leave it", as a privileged able-bodied person.
Yeah I also found the discussion a little confusing at times like when Patrick stated it was fine for Demon's Souls to be unwavering in its difficultly because it was a niche cult classic, but because From Software's notoriety has increased and the Souls series (or their games in general) has entered pop-culture they must compromise because it's now a commodity.

Edit: I think my main take away from that entire conversation is that it's good to be mindful of accessibility and brainstorm, but ultimately I'm not going to fault a developer for having a vision and not wanting to compromise their visions.
 

Minishdriveby

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,795
Also very strange conversation around the sinking city and the white apes... like they even call out the short story that the idea was from and kinda laugh about a lovecraft quote... but that short story is.... something else... and was my first introduction to "Yo this dude [lovecraft] fucking sucks and is blatantly racist as shit."
 

Unidentified

Member
Nov 11, 2017
26
Also very strange conversation around the sinking city and the white apes... like they even call out the short story that the idea was from and kinda laugh about a lovecraft quote... but that short story is.... something else... and was my first introduction to "Yo this dude [lovecraft] fucking sucks and is blatantly racist as shit."
Despite being heavily critical of Lovecraft, their podcast discussing Lovecraft and racism was sort of veering in a similar direction after a while until Natalie stepped in at one point.

Though honestly, outside of the articles from freelancers (which tend to be fantastic), I generally find discussions about race on Waypoint to be lacking. There are of course a few exceptions like Cado on the Life is Strange 2 podcast.
 

Antiwhippy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,951
Hmm, disappointed that waypoint didn't see my email regarding the difficulty discourse. I would have liked to hear their take on it.
 

Brakke

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,472
My man Patrick is teetering on the edge of epiphany.

https://waypoint.vice.com/en_us/article/d3nzwj/sekiros-spirit-emblems-force-me-to-play-with-a-hand-tied-behind-my-back

(Since originally writing this piece last week, I've reached the endgame of Sekiro, a point where I'm able to afford way more spirit emblems than I could ever hope to use, but it comes at a point where my approach to combat involves almost never using prosthetics, singularly relying on blocking and parrying, and only occasionally using a firework when I'm trying to finish off a boss. Tools are an afterthought.)

It is super weird though, how From can't make up on their mind on whether to require or encourage or abandon consumable grinds.
 

Stoze

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,476
My man Patrick is teetering on the edge of epiphany.

https://waypoint.vice.com/en_us/article/d3nzwj/sekiros-spirit-emblems-force-me-to-play-with-a-hand-tied-behind-my-back



It is super weird though, how From can't make up on their mind on whether to require or encourage or abandon consumable grinds.
I love Sekiro, but yeah, I do wonder if they just should've not made them a consumable and just recharge at idols like Estus. They could've even done something like starting you out at a cap of 10 or whatever, then have you find items around the world to increase that capacity as you go.

Or for a simpler solution they could've just given you the Tanto knife after a critical path boss early on in the game. I got it pretty damn late in my playthrough unfortunately.
 

Jintor

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,403
re diffulty, i guess one factor i'd say is a question of whether or not i feel like something is achievable and i'm just failing to execute on that potential. Like with puzzles especially, picross or hell even logic stuff like in phoenix wright or other ADVs (hell even shrines in BOTW), sometimes I feel like something just isn't fitting into my head and I'll never get it without a hint or some other 'external' difficulty modifier. Whereas often in Souls, character-action, SHMUPs or action games where it's just a matter of inputs and execution, I don't mind throwing myself at something a bajillion times because there's a more tangible sense of 'improvement' in terms of syncing between what my brain wants the character to do and my internalisation of the control mechanisms to make that actually happen.
 

Jintor

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,403
also, had some weird thoughts about BOTW re the colonialism discourse given that most of what I'm doing is looking for ancient shrines and looting the shit out of them but it's okay because of reasons (fairly good reasons too). i'll have to find a moment to sit down and type it up but it definitely helps when you're the Hero of Time or whatever
 

Brakke

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,472
also, had some weird thoughts about BOTW re the colonialism discourse given that most of what I'm doing is looking for ancient shrines and looting the shit out of them but it's okay because of reasons (fairly good reasons too). i'll have to find a moment to sit down and type it up but it definitely helps when you're the Hero of Time or whatever
The funny thing is Link is uhh “indigenously ancient.”

I forget the lore — were the shrines contemporary to Link before the Calamity? Or do they predate it?
 

Jintor

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,403
pretty sure they're from the previous previous calamity so from 10,000 years ago, not 100 years ago
 

benj

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,550

Tzarscream

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
2,945
My hot Waypoint criticism take that I can't keep in anymore.

That god damn intro song by Boen is too fucking twee.
 

Hella

Member
Oct 27, 2017
16,125
oh my god is it's not spelled bowen?! my mind's been autocorrecting it this entire time

i'm so sorry...
 

mnz

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,286
Listened to it twice now and I don't get their problem with the The Sinking City (I think they used the wrong name on the podcast and/or description) dev statement. It's like Austin argues three different points of view in his monologue and two of them don't have a problem with it.

I actually think Patrick's idea sucks. He would rather have them ignore the problematic aspects of Lovecraft than try to engage it and fail.
 
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mnz

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,286
That last podcast was pretty good, finally a guest with some wildly different opinions on games lol

It did end mid-sentence, though!?
 

Hella

Member
Oct 27, 2017
16,125
open mike was a fantastic guest. really cool to hear the behind-the-scenes business stuff, and open mike's experiences with games. his philosophy towards gaming is wonderfully chill.

the thing about dark souls standing out to him vs. other top-rated games was really intriguing. sorta goes into the whole difficulty conversation from before. like, it is a gateway to demanding games in a way i didn't realise existed. i've, uh, never really followed "best game" guides for a platform, instead going by genre or developer/publisher. or just being aware via osmosis thanks to era.

so i guess i see why folks are so defensive over soulsian design. it's a gateway they haven't opened yet.
It did end mid-sentence, though!?
main pod ended with "peace," as usual.

i forgot to keep listening for bonus bits, though.