Waypoint+ |OT| "Fuck Capitalism, Go Home"

[Holundrian]

Then spend the goddamn effort to not get spoiled. Like damn this is exactly why spoilerculture deserves to be ridiculed. People come up with dozens of hypotheticals about how it's unreasonable people talk about things before they take 1 step back and actually do all the easy things to not get spoiled.
I just don't understand how people complain so endlessly about this shit if they are part of a group that wants to maximize their enjoyment by not knowing anything and yet do nothing to actually maximize that outside of complaining about others.

Maybe I am a superhuman with the superpower to avoid spoilers in that case I truly apologize for my ignorance and having unrealistic standards.
But here are a few more things I've never been spoiled on that I probably plan to watch/get to at some point: The Wire, Stranger Things, West World,The Sopranos, Metal Gear, FF12, Detective Pikachu(I just skipped that discussion in the waypoint episode woaw), Shazam, etc etc etc the list goes on with examples of varying popularity and zeitgeist mind share. I didn't get spoiled on Game of Thrones Season 7 which I completely skipped until basically the week before Season 8.

I don't understand how I am apparently part of some weird outlier group that somehow finds no issue avoiding spoilers while others paint this reality of spoiler dodging being equivalent to real life parkour. Again if your job is in media I'm A LOT more empathetic to that but the average joe that doesn't have a professional reason why they can't check out of the online discourse has no goddamn excuse to be this whiney. Also I am on the internet A LOT but I know it may sound surprising but stack exchange post don't contain hidden unexpected spoilers for the new hot thing out of nowhere.(Basically my point here is that between getting off the internet entirely and just navigating like a smart person that actually cares there is GIGANTIC playroom between the two).
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To add though I have nothing against and support disclaimers like Cado did for podcast. And I also totally support people that want to have spoiler free discussion by actually making these type of threads for themselves. Like make the "FF7R E3 no unmarked spoiler thread" I respect that 100% but don't go into a FF7R thread and expect that rule to be the norm. But yes if someone is a jackass to the extent of purposely entering those threads and does spoil maliciously of course that's kinda shit and not acceptable.

 

[Brakke]

All of those premises are bunk, DeepFlaw. Caring about spoilers is a decision you make for yourself. "Feeling legimate suspense" is trivial to achieve. There are one infinity things you've never read and have never heard anything about. Just pick up one of those.

Seriously, get a hobby. Take up hiking or woodworking or baking or something. Those are great ways to get a thrill of discovery. Consuming media is inherently social ESPECIALLY when we're talking about pulpy mass media like video games.

 

[Patapuf]

I like detective novels, and finding out who dun it is gives a different kind of suspense than knowing beforehand.

I don't think wanting to avoid spoilers and people being considerate about it is bad.

I'm just surprised at the FF7 thing because we've had a lot of remakes these past few years. FF7 is the first game is see people arguing it shouldn't be spoiled and i'm not sure what makes it different to many others.

 

[GlassEmpires]

i have a cousin who ducked into a full theatre, opening weekend mind you, of folks watching Shutter Island and spoiled the ending. it's really on those people for not catching the opening night showings.

 

[Brass Body Dave]

In this case, hustle and play the ff7 remake that's not out yet?

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no, play the shitty old PS1/iPhone/Xbox One/Switch/PS4 game

 

[deepFlaw]

Then spend the goddamn effort to not get spoiled. Like damn this is exactly why spoilerculture deserves to be ridiculed. People come up with dozens of hypotheticals about how it's unreasonable people talk about things before they take 1 step back and actually do all the easy things to not get spoiled.
I just don't understand how people complain so endlessly about this shit if they are part of a group that wants to maximize their enjoyment by not knowing anything and yet do nothing to actually maximize that outside of complaining about others.

Maybe I am a superhuman with the superpower to avoid spoilers in that case I truly apologize for my ignorance and having unrealistic standards.
But here are a few more things I've never been spoiled on that I probably plan to watch/get to at some point: The Wire, Stranger Things, West World,The Sopranos, Metal Gear, FF12, Detective Pikachu(I just skipped that discussion in the waypoint episode woaw), Shazam, etc etc etc the list goes on with examples of varying popularity and zeitgeist mind share. I didn't get spoiled on Game of Thrones Season 7 which I completely skipped until basically the week before Season 8.

I don't understand how I am apparently part of some weird outlier group that somehow finds no issue avoiding spoilers while others paint this reality of spoiler dodging being equivalent to real life parkour. Again if your job is in media I'm A LOT more empathetic to that but the average joe that doesn't have a professional reason why they can't check out of the online discourse has no goddamn excuse to be this whiney.

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My job isn't in media, but my social circle on Twitter and on here sure is a lot of fucking people who talk about games and media in general, because they do work around games or because they're similarly adjacent to those that do. I'm naturally exposed to a lot of discussion and muting isn't perfect. Opting out of dealing with these problems is basically opting out of having any social life, personally. I do my best to deal with it as a result, and it's kinda shitty when that's dismissed.

Like there's definitely been stuff I just remain miraculously unspoiled for too, sure. I too have successfully skipped a GoT season for a year as well without even thinking about it. Not everything is a mess or stressful, and there's stuff I've accepted I'm just gonna see because I didn't keep up, especially for TV where what's considered "spoilers" can reasonably change every week. But sometimes just... fucking rot13 or tag when you're dropping big spoilers out in the open; it's not that hard, y'know? I'm not saying you can't write crit of an entire game anywhere, that's silly, but just put some effort in on the other side to make sure I can dodge it till I'm done too.

This also ignores stuff like... hey, sometimes I actually need to ask a question in an OT or look something up to progress. I do my best to navigate those minefields, but they're minefields. If Google fucks me over that's one thing, I'll blame myself, but meanwhile if people have gotten real lax about how they tag spoilers I reserve some right to be annoyed by it. And I can understand some level of needing to be able to openly discuss things - I readily accepted seeing Sekiro boss/area names and such, I just don't want to know how to fight things in advance - but at least think about what you're dropping on platforms where you know people don't have a warning.

And, well, we're talking about games here. Things that are 10s of hours long, sometimes 100+ hours. I can't always naturally get to the vital bits before people start making entirely obvious memes that they think they're being smart about. I do my best to keep up when I want to keep up, but sometimes a "drought" for AAA means people think everyone played a game through in 2 weeks when I was actually juggling a few things and that game is longer than I'd get through in 2 weeks anyway. And so on.

 

[Owlowiscious]

Then spend the goddamn effort to not get spoiled. Like damn this is exactly why spoilerculture deserves to be ridiculed. People come up with dozens of hypotheticals about how it's unreasonable people talk about things before they take 1 step back and actually do all the easy things to not get spoiled.
I just don't understand how people complain so endlessly about this shit if they are part of a group that wants to maximize their enjoyment by not knowing anything and yet do nothing to actually maximize that outside of complaining about others.

Maybe I am a superhuman with the superpower to avoid spoilers in that case I truly apologize for my ignorance and having unrealistic standards.
But here are a few more things I've never been spoiled on that I probably plan to watch/get to at some point: The Wire, Stranger Things, West World,The Sopranos, Metal Gear, FF12, Detective Pikachu(I just skipped that discussion in the waypoint episode woaw), Shazam, etc etc etc the list goes on with examples of varying popularity and zeitgeist mind share. I didn't get spoiled on Game of Thrones Season 7 which I completely skipped until basically the week before Season 8.

I don't understand how I am apparently part of some weird outlier group that somehow finds no issue avoiding spoilers while others paint this reality of spoiler dodging being equivalent to real life parkour. Again if your job is in media I'm A LOT more empathetic to that but the average joe that doesn't have a professional reason why they can't check out of the online discourse has no goddamn excuse to be this whiney. Also I am on the internet A LOT but I know it may sound surprising but stack exchange post don't contain hidden unexpected spoilers for the new hot thing out of nowhere.(Basically my point here is that between getting off the internet entirely and just navigating like a smart person that actually cares there is GIGANTIC playroom between the two).
------------
To add though I have nothing against and support disclaimers like Cado did for podcast. And I also totally support people that want to have spoiler free discussion by actually making these type of threads for themselves. Like make the "FF7R E3 no unmarked spoiler thread" I respect that 100% but don't go into a FF7R thread and expect that rule to be the norm. But yes if someone is a jackass to the extent of purposely entering those threads and does spoil maliciously of course that's kinda shit and not acceptable.

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You're saying the exact same thing I am but at the same time saying spoilerculture deserves to be ridiculed.

 

[deepFlaw]

All of those premises are bunk, DeepFlaw. Caring about spoilers is a decision you make for yourself. "Feeling legimate suspense" is trivial to achieve. There are one infinity things you've never read and have never heard anything about. Just pick up one of those.

Seriously, get a hobby. Take up hiking or woodworking or baking or something. Those are great ways to get a thrill of discovery. Consuming media is inherently social ESPECIALLY when we're talking about pulpy mass media like video games.

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Sure thing, boss. I'll deprive myself of the thing I already paid for and put time into, and just go buy something else and hope everyone who's talking about that is considerate enough to let me enjoy it instead, before this process repeats. It was totally unfair of me to expect myself to be allowed to enjoy this specific thing like everyone around me is.

Meanwhile, apparently I am in total charge of how my brain chemicals work, and can just rewrite them on a fly to not feel how I feel about things or have my thoughts work the way they do. Who knew? Wish I knew about this superpower earlier; can think of some things it might have helped with.

like that's definitely a reasonable take on this and not at all laughable

c'mon... nowhere am I saying you can't talk about a game, dude; my social circle wouldn't be what it was -and I wouldn't be on this website, in this thread! - if I didn't explicitly want to see people talking about games and to talk about them myself... just take like 5 seconds to make sure you're not dropping spoilers with no way to opt out, lol

EDIT:

like "spoiler culture" and the way it stifles critique and even just some normal discussion is indeed a bit of a mess

but needlessly being a dick about the fact that people might be bothered by spoilers, ever, at all, isn't great either

 

[Flipyap]

I mean, FF7 is available on phones and every current gaming system. It's not exactly hard to come by.

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People don't consume everything just because it's available. You're talking about a long game whose age is becoming a bigger barrier to entry with each passing year, while the constant flow of new stuff fights for our attention.
With the remake on the way (for four years and counting), a whole lot of people would rather just wait for the shiny new version.

I've owned Planescape: Torment for years and I would like to experience that story unspoiled, but it's tough to find the time and will to play old games sometimes. If there were a remake on the way, I'd immediately bolt my GOG fridge shut and wait for the thing to come out.
The main difference between my experience and that of the LTTPers who are curious about FF7 is that I don't have to dodge spoilers because the fanbase of my backlog unicorn didn't turn its twists into a punchline.

 

[Holundrian]

You're saying the exact same thing I am but at the same time saying spoilerculture deserves to be ridiculed.

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It is more a response to deepflaw and the recent ERAthread on calling for no open spoilers on FF7 in all FF7R discussions.
As in the attitude of people feeling entitled to impede on natural discussion deserves to be ridiculed in the face of how easy it is to actually curate for yourself to not get spoiled. Make a thread with your own rules 100% fine don't go into spaces that don't follow your preferred rules for discussion and demand them as law.
Basically I can't stand the underlying attitude of spoilerphobes that absolves themselves of all responsibility to remain spoiler free when it is often so clear that they basically willfully spoil themselves.


Someone that actually cared about not getting spoiled and did things to prevent it imagine that.

Or be the opposite of that and actually be the asshole hissing in the open streets at strangers for talking about the movie they just watched. xD

 

[Brass Body Dave]

Culture in general has shifted huuugely into consuming content and not creating anything.

Now that the world is in a state of frenzied and constant consumption, spoiling something takes on a much more important meaning even though we should fight it.

 

[Owlowiscious]

It is more a response to deepflaw and the recent ERAthread on calling for no open spoilers on FF7 in all FF7R discussions.

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I havent heard of that thread. That gives me context of the annoyed replies in the thread I just made lol whoops

 

[Brakke]

Go get a library card if the money's a problem. Or read fanfic.

Or read a forum of people discussing spoilers! The thrill of seeing a new idea from Holundrian is the same as the thrill of seeing a new idea from Kojima et al.

 

[Brakke]

i have a cousin who ducked into a full theatre, opening weekend mind you, of folks watching Shutter Island and spoiled the ending. it's really on those people for not catching the opening night showings.

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Honestly I would rather live in a world where I can tell a true story about a petty dweeb doing this dumb thing to me than in a world where I saw Shutter Island at all.

 

[Actinium]

During the original ff7's prime it was never a taboo topic of discussion, no one was even using the word spoiler yet unless they were talking about a car accessory. The big talking point at the time was just whether or not it made you cry and if that meant it was an important milestone in game storytelling, or if that meant you were just a huge crybaby weeb.

It also just hasn't been that long I guess? Like if they remake the sixth sense in 2025 are we all supposed to talk around that just in case there is a 15 year old that for some reason missed every reference to it and still could be really blown away by that reveal yet didn't care enough about the genre to watch the original at any point? At some point when you're talking about a remake specifically, you're talking about something that's already been done, where we know the broad strokes of plot and action and the new important questions are about how it's going to be changed or reinterpreted.

 

[ArjanN]

During FF7's prime most people probably weren't even online yet.

Yeah, some people overreact to spoilers, but It really doesn't cost people anything to just be a bit considerate and talk around spoilers or give a heads up.

 

[Hella]

I think it's really a matter of context, re: spoilers. If you're in a space where people are going through a thing for the first time, of course don't spoil it; going into games unspoiled can completely change--and enhance--the experience overall. Something like Life is Strange or Nier: Automata, or even Knights of the Old Republic are all fundamentally different experiences when you know what happens. But if it's been years and it's a casual conversation with people you know don't care, then spoil away.

The real issue I have with spoilers is the notion of mechanical spoilers. The way mechanics work can be just as critical to the experience as the story is; a game like XCOM is entirely different when you know what's coming--and I would say, a lesser game. I know Rob has never agreed with the ironman approach to games like that, but going in "unspoiled" is a key part of the appeal. And here I'd go further and say they should never be spoiled--except in situations where you're explicitly discussing them (say, behind spoiler tags). Mechanical spoilers existence should be more widely acknowledged.

Nier: Automata is probably the best representation of both angles of spoilers. Knowing what happens will alter your experience with the game significantly. And maybe there's a third angle to this where games hinging on spoilers should only ever be discussed with extreme care no matter what.

 

[Brakke]

How can you even create any workable standard for what's a "mechanical spoiler" and what's just describing what the game *is*?

 

[deepFlaw]

During the original ff7's prime it was never a taboo topic of discussion, no one was even using the word spoiler yet unless they were talking about a car accessory. The big talking point at the time was just whether or not it made you cry and if that meant it was an important milestone in game storytelling, or if that meant you were just a huge crybaby weeb.

It also just hasn't been that long I guess? Like if they remake the sixth sense in 2025 are we all supposed to talk around that just in case there is a 15 year old that for some reason missed every reference to it and still could be really blown away by that reveal yet didn't care enough about the genre to watch the original at any point? At some point when you're talking about a remake specifically, you're talking about something that's already been done, where we know the broad strokes of plot and action and the new important questions are about how it's going to be changed or reinterpreted.

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You're saying this as if they didn't literally not spoil the Sixth Sense in some podcast episodes, because Natalie didn't know the twist and wanted to see it, lol.

The FF7 thing, to actually talk about that (though not having heard the podcast yet) and not spoilers in general, is interesting. Because that it is such a commonly discussed and iconic/significant thing, and you would reasonably expect them to play off of that in whatever the remake goes for. But at the same time, it has indeed been 20+ years, and it's not quite Vader level in terms of being something people who didn't grow up with games also necessarily know about? So I do think a ton of people are gonna want to play that game who don't know about the twists, whether they're just not part of gaming communities or because it's just not actually talked about that much these days (or at least till recently). And it's gonna be weird to have to handle both audiences, for both people writing about it and SE - I do wonder if they'll just outright show it in marketing stuff, or if they'll also consider it something to obscure still.

I guess, thinking about it, the length of time also brings to mind expectations around adaptations? Because thinking about GoT... it's obviously not like the book was the same level of common knowledge. But still, people didn't exactly treat book spoilers as things everyone was expected to know just because it'd been 10-20 years since the relevant book came out? It's a remake, yeah, but it's also not just a touched up remaster. It's clearly gonna be effectively a new thing, released in a weird way over a long period of time. So, as I work through this... it does provoke some of that feeling for me, where maybe there's merit to the idea of experiencing this new thing without being expected to know all of the original, especially given the episodic nature of it. But that doesn't mean it should silence those who wants to talk about the original, or compare the new to the old; just means there should be some reasonable expectation that people actually don't all know what happens anymore.

 

[Hella]

How can you even create any workable standard for what's a "mechanical spoiler" and what's just describing what the game *is*?

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It's tricksy, but... does that knowledge destroy the game?

Rock, Paper, Shotgun has had a few good articles on the concept over the years.

 

[Tygre]

Can we not have a 17th thread turn into a FF7 spoiler war?

Aeris dying is not even a big FF7 spoiler! Unless you're talking about Zack or Clones you are not spoiling FF7 (of course spoilers are bunk in their entirety, but this specific argument is made all the worse by focusing on the wrong part of the story).

 

[deepFlaw]

Well, yeah, that's the other thing which does get to the issues I can actually agree with regarding "spoiler culture". Those other things would be much more along the lines of what I actually would wish I didn't know and would be bothered by learning if I cared more about playing FF7 unspoiled, vs a shocking (though meaningful) moment.

...though that's also being said with that context that the moment isn't as vital, I guess? I dunno.

 

[Hella]

Only Patrick Klepek can get to the bottom of Splinter Cell: Just A Joke.

 

[Jintor]

Is it spoiler culture or is it just being a nice person

 

[Brakke]

It's tricksy, but... does that knowledge destroy the game?

Rock, Paper, Shotgun has had a few good articles on the concept over the years.

Click to shrink...

The one piece,

Reviews as a buying guide are, at their best, about giving you the information you need to decide whether you want to buy the game or not.

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Is about reflecting on how to write buyers' guide reviews. Which is premised on like... how to be a good PR hype man? Maybe that's worth caring about if you're writing buyers' guide reviews for an audience that expects that, but it's not really a useful way to think about any other kind of communication.

The other is nonsense,

If I told you how my favourite Kompendium game plays, I would be robbing you of the joy of unravelling Kompendium's rules with a friend. That's

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"Joy of unravelling" isn't something that can be robbed. There's no property right there. There's no entitlement. By not explaining how this game works, my dude is robbing me of the joy of learning about something clever I won't ever learn about otherwise. The whole concept just collapses on itself.

If you're going to be precious about spoilers, recognize that you're privileging one set of people's priority over another's and don't act like it's somehow curtesy.

Meanwhile, people bungle talking around spoilers so often it's exhausting. Did anyone in the world thread the needle of Waypoint's Detective Pikachu discussion this week? I'd be shocked. But in any case, Patrick actually realized the truth that "spoiling" the "big twist" in a children's movie that constantly explains itself directly to the camera is better for a "buyers' guide" interest-building kind of coverage anyway!

 

[Owlowiscious]

During the original ff7's prime it was never a taboo topic of discussion, no one was even using the word spoiler yet unless they were talking about a car accessory. The big talking point at the time was just whether or not it made you cry and if that meant it was an important milestone in game storytelling, or if that meant you were just a huge crybaby weeb.

It also just hasn't been that long I guess? Like if they remake the sixth sense in 2025 are we all supposed to talk around that just in case there is a 15 year old that for some reason missed every reference to it and still could be really blown away by that reveal yet didn't care enough about the genre to watch the original at any point? At some point when you're talking about a remake specifically, you're talking about something that's already been done, where we know the broad strokes of plot and action and the new important questions are about how it's going to be changed or reinterpreted.

Click to shrink...

When I played I was thinking how dumb it was that the whole thing was ruined in some magazine disc months before release and how it was being played in commercials

And if sixth sense is rereleased i wont talk around it. I'll ask if the group I'm with cares about spoilers then talk about it openly if they're ok with it or i wont talk about it if they're not. It's not hard

 

[Hella]

If you're going to be precious about spoilers, recognize that you're privileging one set of people's priority over another's and don't act like it's somehow curtesy.

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But seriously, it's not doing a disservice to readers (or performing PR, what) to recognise the value in playing a video game--and thus experiencing its mechanics--for yourself. I'd say recognising this is one of the larger hurdles facing games criticism right now. There are reviewers (or, heck, just players) that see value in the way a game is played, but kinda stumble in explaining why or how; and I'd say that is concerning mechanical spoilers.

Like, you openly mock the idea of spoiler culture, but also go out of your way to avoid spoiling anything. Like... which is it--do spoilers harm the discourse, or do they not?

 

[Jintor]

i think its just kind of more of a deal with the blurred boundary of what is private and what is broadcasting nowadays. A 'private' conversation between two friends on twitter isn't really that even if its thought of that way. it was easier to handle when all you had to worry about was watercooler talk or whatever.

 

[Hella]

Literally heard someone talking about GoT over the phone while waiting in a lobby today, lol.

I'm just waiting to get ambushed by someone casually mentioning Endgame stuff. I work in a public space so there's a lot of people going through... and some of them are dangerously idle.

 

[Tzarscream]

Final Fantasy 7 came out in 1997.

Yo, the statute of limitations on spoilers for that game has expired.

 

[Jintor]

Final Fantasy 7 came out in 1997.

Yo, the statute of limitations on spoilers on that game has expired.

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i like the question of whether statue of limitations are reupped with remakes though

also its funny cos like we don't really give a shit about spoilers for, say, aladdin or lion king, but endgame is kind of a thing? I dunno this thing where creators are like "Okay in three weeks it will really fuck with our marketing plan for the next movie if you can't talk about shit so the limitations is up then!" is kinda interesting too

 

[Tzarscream]

i like the question of whether statue of limitations are reupped with remakes though

also its funny cos like we don't really give a shit about spoilers for, say, aladdin or lion king, but endgame is kind of a thing? I dunno this thing where creators are like "Okay in three weeks it will really fuck with our marketing plan for the next movie if you can't talk about shit so the limitations is up then!" is kinda interesting too

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Yes but if they remade the Sixth Sense next year, what, are we all going to pretend that "Bruce Willis Is Dead" hasn't been in the public consciousness for years?

It's ridiculous.

I think you should be courteous to people on spoilers for things that have released recently and are generally original, but remakes on cult classics 20 years on? Come on, this is where the line is drawn, even I know Aeris dies through cultural osmosis and I am actually interested in playing this FF7 remake because I know there's more to it than just that.

 

[Salarians]

o this detective pikachu spoiler segment is lovely

anyway re: ffvii spoilers: the "thing" that most people are referring to was a meme about spoilers for years so the idea that there are people unaware of this is weird to me but also
this

Spoiler

hewwo

isn't that hard to do so I'll just do it

 

[Jintor]

Yes but if they remade the Sixth Sense next year, what, are we all going to pretend that "Bruce Willis Is Dead" hasn't been in the public consciousness for years?

It's ridiculous.

I think you should be courteous to people on spoilers for things that have released recently and are generally original, but remakes on cult classics 20 years on? Come on, this is where the line is drawn, even I know Aeris dies through cultural osmosis and I am actually interested in playing this FF7 remake because I know there's more to it than just that.

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Everyone always uses Rosebud as the thing but i think it's funnier that it's actually the first half of that that is now missing from the public consciousness, because who else other than big nerds would even know that that's from Citizen Kane, because who the fuck is watching or cares about citizen kane in a surprise context anyway these days

Anyway honestly its like seconds of your time to tag stuff and people complaining about it are butts

 

[Hella]

Everything I know about Rosebud comes from a Real Ghostbusters episode.

 

[Owlowiscious]

I give shits about spoilers for Aladdin and the Lion King

Yes but if they remade the Sixth Sense next year, what, are we all going to pretend that "Bruce Willis Is Dead" hasn't been in the public consciousness for years?

It's ridiculous.

I think you should be courteous to people on spoilers for things that have released recently and are generally original, but remakes on cult classics 20 years on? Come on, this is where the line is drawn, even I know Aeris dies through cultural osmosis and I am actually interested in playing this FF7 remake because I know there's more to it than just that.

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if someone tells you they are interested in seeing 6th sense and dont know anything about it do you still tell them things unpromted?

While it has been in public consciousness for years you also understand that there are many that never heard it?

 

[Brakke]

but also go out of your way to avoid spoiling anything

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That's not true. I barely ever mark spoilers. But if I know sensitive people are around I'll usually avoid "spoiling" because it's not worth the derail they'll start.

Like... which is it--do spoilers harm the discourse, or do they not?

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Discussing things openly and directly improves the discourse. Caring about spoilers and complaining about them harms the discourse.

 

[Owlowiscious]

That's not true. I barely ever mark spoilers. But if I know sensitive people are around I'll usually avoid "spoiling" because it's not worth the derail they'll start.



Discussing things openly and directly improves the discourse. Caring about spoilers and complaining about them harms the discourse.

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and if people dont want that discourse? If the topic isnt about the things you want to talk about? Talking openly and directly harms the current discourse and changes the discourse that harms it.

 

[Hella]

and if people dont want that discourse? If the topic isnt about the things you want to talk about? Talking openly and directly harms the current discourse and changes the discourse that harms it.

Click to shrink...

This is where I am too.

In a focused discussion (say, a spoiler thread, pod segment, or article) then sure! Not blocking out spoilers improves the flow of discussion, just in general. But in, say, a rando forum thread or off-hand remark or whatever, opon spoilers can only harm a person's enjoyment of said thing.

I categorically disagree with the notion that minding spoilers (at all) is harmful to The Discourse.

 

[Brakke]

opon spoilers can only harm a person's enjoyment of said thing

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But that's obviously not true. Even on this pod, Patrick is delighted to learn the Detective Pikachu "twist" ahead of time.

I like learning about games and I'm obviously never going to play them all. So I appreciate full discussion of games in all cases.

 

[Actinium]

At a certain point it gets to be like a legal definition of porn thing where 'i'll know it when i see it', or in this case hear it. There is a time element to most of it, at a certain point if the thing has existed for years and you never got around to it then the onus of responsibility shifts to the listener instead of the speaker. Especially in the context of a video game podcast where the more knowledgeable about the medium as a whole the better the conversations get as you get more examples and counterpoints from previous games to filter thoughts and critiques through and if the waypoint crew was having a great conversation around deaths in games done well and poorly like the best they could do was a single sentence warning up front that they were gonna spoil some 30+ games as they rattle off examples from across time and genre along the whole segment. In cases of full on mystery genres though it can sometimes be timeless, or at least recontextualized often. I saw the remake of murder on the orient express that came out not too long ago and i had read that book at my grandma's back when i was like 10 and it had been published back in uh 1934 according to google, so where is the line there exactly? A 80 year old spoiler was suddenly applicable again in 2017 because only me and half a dozen old agatha christie fan grandmas in the theater knew what was coming.

 

[Tzarscream]

I give shits about spoilers for Aladdin and the Lion King
if someone tells you they are interested in seeing 6th sense and dont know anything about it do you still tell them things unpromted?

While it has been in public consciousness for years you also understand that there are many that never heard it?

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Counterpoint, if somebody is listening to a podcast and hears somebody refer to something as "Like when Bruce Willis realised he was dead in the Sixth Sense" does that person have a legitimate reason to complain about spoilers?

 

[Jintor]

But that's obviously not true. Even on this pod, Patrick is delighted to learn the Detective Pikachu "twist" ahead of time.

I like learning about games and I'm obviously never going to play them all. So I appreciate full discussion of games in all cases.

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yeah but cato prefaced it with like five warnings and gave patrick ample time to jump out if he wanted. that's a different scenario to just starting to talk about the end of detective pikachu.

i just feel like its up to the individual to decide on what terms they want to engage with media. theres people who fuckin love spoilers and theres people that dont and the warning approach i think is just fairly easy for everybody involved

 

[Jintor]

this isn't strictly related but i find it fascinating how little i really want to discuss a movie after its over versus a series or a game. Like theres pages of endgame or even detective pikachu discussion but I tend to find after I've vomited out a review or summation of my thoughts I don't tend to want to watch more or think about it or anything

 

[Owlowiscious]

Counterpoint, if somebody is listening to a podcast and hears somebody refer to something as "Like when Bruce Willis realised he was dead in the Sixth Sense" does that person have a legitimate reason to complain about spoilers?

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Personally I would be upset, but I don't have an answer for that situation, so I personally wouldn't mention it. And I don't think my being upset about it as a legitimate reason to complain about it; it's how I'd feel.
Like for example, I'm upset about hearing about Get Out, but I don't have an answer for that situation, so I don't mention it. And I'm only mentioning it here as an example to this completely different question.

At a certain point it gets to be like a legal definition of porn thing where 'i'll know it when i see it', or in this case hear it. There is a time element to most of it, at a certain point if the thing has existed for years and you never got around to it then the onus of responsibility shifts to the listener instead of the speaker. Especially in the context of a video game podcast where the more knowledgeable about the medium as a whole the better the conversations get as you get more examples and counterpoints from previous games to filter thoughts and critiques through and if the waypoint crew was having a great conversation around deaths in games done well and poorly like the best they could do was a single sentence warning up front that they were gonna spoil some 30+ games as they rattle off examples from across time and genre along the whole segment. In cases of full on mystery genres though it can sometimes be timeless, or at least recontextualized often. I saw the remake of murder on the orient express that came out not too long ago and i had read that book at my grandma's back when i was like 10 and it had been published back in uh 1934 according to google, so where is the line there exactly? A 80 year old spoiler was suddenly applicable again in 2017 because only me and half a dozen old agatha christie fan grandmas in the theater knew what was coming.

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In this theater of people interested in the movie, who may or may not know the prior works, did you yell out plot points of the book?

There are many cases where it's not hard to notice that there are people interested but don't know the work, where you can just not say stuff.

 

[Tzarscream]

Personally I would be upset, but I don't have an answer for that situation, so I personally wouldn't mention it. And I don't think my being upset about it as a legitimate reason to complain about it; it's how I'd feel.
Like for example, I'm upset about hearing about Get Out, but I don't have an answer for that situation, so I don't mention it. And I'm only mentioning it here as an example to this completely different question.

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Right, so with regards to FF7, that's how I believe it should be.

You don't feel justified to complain because you understand there's a certain statute of limitations.

Of course if somebody was going to play the FF7 remake and knew nothing about it, I wouldn't spoil it, but I would also hope that if somebody referred to Aeris dying on a podcast they wouldn't go ape shit.

 

[Owlowiscious]

Right, so with regards to FF7, that's how I believe it should be.

You don't feel justified to complain because you understand there's a certain statute of limitations.

Of course if somebody was going to play the FF7 remake and knew nothing about it, I wouldn't spoil it, but I would also hope that if somebody referred to Aeris dying on a podcast they wouldn't go ape shit.

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no the situation presented was "spoiler then title name" as a response to different discussion. You can't say "hey can I talk about sixth sense here?" because just associating it with the current conversation is already too much information. In my situation, I just wouldn't mention 6th sense in relation to another conversation, if I wasn't sure the audience all already know it. But others decide it's public knowledge and openly add it to the conversation. In that sense, the sense where it's easy to go either way, I currently don't have an answer for that situation.

So yeah in a podcast I would hope people don't randomly throw out things like that, especially people with knowledge that a remake is coming that people new to the game want to play and are listening to that podcast

so in a thread about some new announcement or development about FF7 remake, I don't think you shold discuss plot points from the original FF7

 

[Tzarscream]

no the situation presented was "spoiler then title name" as a response to different discussion. You can't say "hey can I talk about sixth sense here?" because just associating it with the current conversation is already too much information. In my situation, I just wouldn't mention 6th sense in relation to another conversation, if I wasn't sure the audience all already know it. But others decide it's public knowledge and openly add it to the conversation. In that sense, the sense where it's easy to go either way, I currently don't have an answer for that situation.

So yeah in a podcast I would hope people don't randomly throw out things like that, especially people with knowledge that a remake is coming that people new to the game want to play and are listening to that podcast

so in a thread about some new announcement or development about FF7 remake, I don't think you shold discuss plot points from the original FF7

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I disagree, I believe that after a certain amount of time, especially a classic like FF7, at some point the plot points aren't just plot points, they are cultural touchstones that graduate beyond just plot spoilers.

Like where does it end, when Ken Levine comes out with his Logan's Run screenplay, are we all supposed to pretend we don't know what happens in Logan's Run? When I watched Logans Run I knew what happened at the end, but it's place as a early cult classic scifi is what drew me in and I really enjoyed that film despite knowing what happened at the end.

At some point, with some cultural artefacts, they become immune to the rules of spoiler culture.

 

[Tygre]

I'm just waiting to get ambushed by someone casually mentioning Endgame stuff. I work in a public space so there's a lot of people going through... and some of them are dangerously idle.

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Marvel Studios are now releasing TV adverts and trailers showing everything up to and including the end of Endgame.

It's not an ambush if the other side are a 24/7 Mariachi band.

 

[Owlowiscious]

I disagree, I believe that after a certain amount of time, especially a classic like FF7, at some point the plot points aren't just plot points, they are cultural touchstones that graduate beyond just plot spoilers.

Like where does it end, when Ken Levine comes out with his Logan's Run screenplay, are we all supposed to pretend we don't know what happens in Logan's Run? When I watched Logans Run I knew what happened at the end, but it's place as a early cult classic scifi is what drew me in and I really enjoyed that film despite knowing what happened at the end.

At some point, with some cultural artefacts, they become immune to the rules of spoiler culture.

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I don't know what happens in Logan's run

Marvel Studios are now releasing TV adverts and trailers showing everything up to and including the end of Endgame.

It's not an ambush if the other side are a 24/7 Mariachi band.

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it's labeled and people can choose whether or not to participate. oh. tv. thought you meant youtube. commercials have always been an issue and if you're that type of person you have to avoid them.