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Cream

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,316
https://waypoint.vice.com/en_us/art...k-fractured-but-whole-transphobia-trans-woman

Long article, but worth the read. It's by Jennifer Unkle, btw. Couldn't figure out how to put the name in the quote.

After spending several hours jumping through quasi-superhero misadventures in South Park: The Fractured But Whole, my elementary school counselor called me into his office. He understood that I wanted to talk about my gender, and started with a simple prompt: Was I a boy, a girl, or "other"?

...

As Mr. Mackay rushed to the phone and incredulously repeated what I had revealed in the privacy of his room, I stared on in disbelief. This is a nightmare scenario for many queer children: parents aren't always sympathetic to their own kid's identity, and have been known to throw them out of the house permanently, regardless of age. Yet here Mr. Mackay was, reconstructing a worst-case scenario for a weak "wait, is this for real?" joke we've seen a million times before. Of all the franchises that could have handled this emotionally significant moment with care, why did we have to settle for South Park?

Despite its reputation as a satirical stalwart that treats everything and everyone as "fair game," South Park has a particular taste for transphobic humor. The homeroom teacher went through a several-year transition arc, treating her surgeries and sex life as dehumanizing, gross-out gags.

When I came out to someone I trusted, they used the episode where Kyle (a small, white kid) becomes a tall, black basketball player to paint me as deluded. Trey Parker and Matt Stone even went as far as recreating the wild fantasy Republicans peddle to strip our rights away: When Cartman is tired of using the men's room, he declares himself "transginger" for the sole purpose of accessing the girls' room instead. Rather than use its position as a cultural touchstone to advocate for our rights, the comedic duo has always preferred to use us as cheap, hateful gags.

I did my best to ignore the loud contempt South Park had toward people like me, but Ubisoft went and announced that The Fractured But Whole would let players create trans characters. South Park aside, this would be a historic release: For once, a monolithic publisher was willing to give us the spotlight. We wouldn't be a throwaway camp villain, a recurring gag or an ally with implied queerness. We would be stars, and that alone grabbed my attention.

After Mr. Mackay called my parents twice(!), he messed up my pronouns, said a few empty words of encouragement and shuffled me out of his room. As soon as I left the school, a gang of rednecks drove up in a truck, stating they didn't take kindly to "this thing" before tossing me into a fight. It's tempting to credit the writers for one rare moment of awareness: transphobic violence is rarely discussed in media, and in games, it's mostly dished out for the player's amusement. How would a cis player react if they saw their trans character face discrimination?

I cross-referenced my playthrough with other reports and discovered something far more upsetting: No matter what gender you choose in the counselor's office, the rednecks will always find an excuse to start trouble: "Hey, it's that boy," they'll shout. "They're cisgendered too!" "We don't take kindly to your types around here." Rather than commenting on the danger we face when we choose to live publicly, the writers turned our fear into a cheap gag, rendering the confrontation toothless. Despite what their framing might suggest, we're bullied, harassed and physically attacked at a disproportionate rate, often by folks who look nothing like a cartoon bigot. When over 20 of us have been murdered in this year alone, tongue-in-cheek attempts at downplaying the violence against our community are more than a little frustrating.

The locals weren't too thrilled with my recent revelation, either. Aside from the occasional "little miss," talking to anyone who wasn't offering a quest resulted in lines like this:

"Aren't you a cute little abomination?"
"That's an interesting look you got going on, boy and/or girl. I don't see gender."
"Aren't you a brave little… whatever you are!"
"Who are you supposed to be, tiny Liberace?"

Several of your teammates fill their character sheets with terms like "Asexual Gender-Neutral Kite Alien," mimicking the same "I identify as___" jokes transphobes make to delegitimize our existence. "PC Principal" also trains you to point out microaggressions for free hits: By offering a strategic incentive for an otherwise sensible action, the writers frame it as a cheap shot we're always waiting to make, rather than a genuine reaction to hurtful language ("...people use microaggressions every day. I'm counting on you to make them pay for doing so!"). When one of the heroes turned to me and said "You kinda have big raisins for a boy, New Kid"— raisins is their code word for breasts—it became clear I was only there to be laughed at.

The South Park creative team is far from the "equal opportunity offender" its ardent defenders make it out to be. The writers remain blind to the abuse and violence marginalized groups receive. They dish out judgment from a scale that was already tipped. From their perspective, our insistence on fair treatment is just as contemptible as the folks mistreating us: We're a nuisance preventing them from getting on with their lives. In the world of South Park, nothing is worse than the disruption of their status quo. There may not be hard limits to comedy, but why waste your admiration on tired, hateful statements that masquerade as jokes?

Aside from a few enthusiastic nods from Wendy, the story all but discarded my choices. My fellow superheroes exclusively used he/him pronouns in and out of cutscenes. They'd occasionally remark that I was a feminine boy, but never made so much as a nod toward my trans identity. It felt like the writers grew tired of their punching bag and moved to the next target, leaving me out to dry. The trans option was window dressing to them, but it meant a great deal more to me.

Then again, maybe I should be glad South Park: The Fractured But Whole forgot I was there. When their concept of inclusion involves mocking the trans, nonbinary and queer communities, being the first game isn't worth any kudos. The fault doesn't rest entirely on Ubisoft's shoulders, either: When being seen is the status quo for queer representation, being heard falls by the wayside. The industry should bring us into the fold, let us write our own stories. Otherwise, we'll see more South Parks treating us like goofy, alternate costumes worthy of their derision.

I thought this was an interesting article, and I wanted to get era's thoughts on it.

In my opinion, the last quote pretty much sums it up. People always say "But South Park makes fun of everyone!" Okay, yeah, is that supposed to make it okay? They do seem to go out of their way in this game to really mock trans characters, and in a time where trans discrimination is an INCREDIBLY seriously problem that is not getting 1% of the attention it deserves, I don't really see how criticizing the game could be seen as baffling.
 
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Darryl M R

The Spectacular PlayStation-Man
Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,720
Kotaku Splitscreen had an episode on this last week. Kirk brought up that South Park is very much still "white bro" humor and often when they are throwing grenades everywhere they miss and make marginalized groups the butt of their jokes.

Also Jason if you are reading this the word coon is modern and prevalent and South Park is gas lighting with that low hanging non-joke. It is not an outdated word.
 
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Sea

Member
Oct 27, 2017
38
pennsylvania
I thought this was a great article. not surprising coming from the south park crew, but disappointing regardless and I'm glad their poor treatment of trans characters is being talked about
 

Fireblend

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,454
Costa Rica
I know you can just click the link, but it might be a good idea to mention who the article's author is, OP. Just a good attribution practice. I had no interest in the game as someone who really hasn't ever been into South Park, but man, this seems pretty disgusting and tasteless.
 

code

Member
Oct 25, 2017
161
Good article thanks, and yeah nothing new coming from south park, its really shitty.
 

Pencil Head

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
18
I'm having a difficult time believing that the person writing this article genuinely thought a South Park game was going to portray the trans experience in a positive light. I feel like people who've never even seen the show should have had a certain expectation going into this game.
 

ClickyCal'

Member
Oct 25, 2017
59,487
I'm having a difficult time believing that the person writing this article genuinely thought a South Park game was going to portray the trans experience in a positive light. I feel like people who've never even seen the show should have had a certain expectation going into this game.
To be fair, south park doesn't really portray anything in a positive light, but they are the ultimate centrists.
 
OP
OP
Cream

Cream

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,316
I'm having a difficult time believing that the person writing this article genuinely thought a South Park game was going to portray the trans experience in a positive light. I feel like people who've never even seen the show should have had a certain expectation going into this game.
She didn't if you read the article, She has long since known about their representations of trans people. She was just, possibly naively, hoping it would be different this time.
 

Mezentine

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,969
The locals weren't too thrilled with my recent revelation, either. Aside from the occasional "little miss," talking to anyone who wasn't offering a quest resulted in lines like this:

"Aren't you a cute little abomination?"
"That's an interesting look you got going on, boy and/or girl. I don't see gender."
"Aren't you a brave little… whatever you are!"
"Who are you supposed to be, tiny Liberace?"

Jesus fucking christ
 

SweetNicole

The Old Guard
Member
Oct 24, 2017
6,542
This is a good article. It makes me sad to see that one of the first games which such "inclusion" does so in such a poor manner.
 

Mondy

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,456
The Author clearly missed the point of the attacks of the rednecks outside the school. Regardless of what you choose, cisgender or otherwise, the rednecks are quite clearly portrayed as petty assholes who are looking for literally any excuse to be assholes. That seems pretty on point as far as I'm concerned.
 
Oct 24, 2017
2,420
As much as I really did like Stick of Truth, I don't think I'll be picking up Fractured but Whole. As much as I think the combat looks about five thousand times better, the trans stuff turned me off of the game. Also the length apparently stretching the game too thin, but that's another issue entirely. I'm glad that some people enjoyed the game but I'll be avoiding it, personally.
 

Linkura

Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,943
Was hoping someone would post this here. What a heartwrenching article. As a cis woman, I appreciated the details on just why it was so offensive to her. I thought the stuff was offensive myself, but she really puts into perspective just WHY it's so awful.
 

Sea

Member
Oct 27, 2017
38
pennsylvania
She didn't if you read the article, She has long since known about their representations of trans people. She was just, possibly naively, hoping it would be different this time.

not only this, but they don't get a pass for being transphobic just because "it's south park", this type of thing should be called out every time as unacceptable.
 
Oct 27, 2017
5,618
Spain
Damn, it sucks that she had her hopes crushed once again, and of course it had to be by South Park. That franchise is the scourge of the Earth, and it's shameful that they tried to pass their game as progressive. I also bought into their publicity, and here is this shit. :/
 

L Thammy

Spacenoid
Member
Oct 25, 2017
49,974
The Author clearly missed the point of the attacks of the rednecks outside the school. Regardless of what you choose, cisgender or otherwise, the rednecks are quite clearly portrayed as petty assholes who are looking for literally any excuse to be assholes. That seems pretty on point as far as I'm concerned.

I could easily be missing something - I'm going solely off your post - but that sounds like it would be trivializing the issue. It's like when you referred to target harassment against members of a vulnerable group as "trolling": you're implying that it's just a matter of people being jerks for fun, as opposed to being aimed at someone specifically and purposefully.
 

Inco

Member
Oct 27, 2017
59
The Author clearly missed the point of the attacks of the rednecks outside the school. Regardless of what you choose, cisgender or otherwise, the rednecks are quite clearly portrayed as petty assholes who are looking for literally any excuse to be assholes. That seems pretty on point as far as I'm concerned.

It's not equivalent in the slightest, though. Cisgender characters are still mentioned as people, while trans characters are literally referred to as "that thing". It's dehumanising and shitty, far more than the other options get.
 

viral

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,617
That sounds just like South Park, they exaggerate real-life issues (in this case the treatment of trans people) to show how shitty the world is. I don't think people should take offense, but then again I'm not trans, and don't personally know anyone who is.
 
Oct 25, 2017
1,146
SP clearly took a swing and missed, but the article made me think about some of the limitations in handling these topics via a video game. Both my gf and I have been playing through the game and received the exact same comments from townspeople. As a result, we attributed the comments to the fact we're running around in a weird costume that makes gender, identity, etc. not very obvious. Secondly, should the red neck battle be only accessible to players who made their characters a particular race or transgender?

Do I think these things could be handled better? Sure, of course. But I do think it's a learning moment for the SP guys and other developers to identify where there are still gaps as they try to be more inclusive. Overall, I don't think the game was trying to be overly malicious, beyond the usual insensitivity of South Park.
 

OrdinaryPrime

Self-requested ban
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
11,042
I've never really understood South Park so I guess I'm perplexed at its longevity and popularity. But I was taught when I was younger that humor should punch up and not down. And I feel like the few times I've watched South Park, it thinks that by making fun of everyone that it's unbiased. But not everyone is in the same situation. People are becoming more and more educated on this particular subject. However, all it takes is a quick glance at the popular Twitch streamers and their chat for me to lose hope that gamers in particular will ever have the sensitivity to do anything but spam ignorant memes like "I identify as an attack helicopter" when confronted with trans characters.
 

Hollywood Duo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
41,792
After some discussion, we determined that this post could have been taken several ways, so it has been reduced to a one-month ban.
While it's true South Park has made a lot of trans jokes I don't think it's disproportionate to other offensive jokes like say Jewish or Black people. If you have self esteem or mental issues you should not be anywhere near anything South Park related because it can be quite hurtful.
 

Coi

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,808
Good article, but I think that it's a little naive to expect something different from South Park.
I haven't played the game, but is this kind of things what I'm expecting from this game and I'm tottally ok with that, can't wait to buy it.
It's South Park, a funny/disgusting/laughably/incorrect experience.
 

medyej

Member
Oct 26, 2017
6,422
South Park for me always straddled that uncomfortable line with humor where it seems like it's written to make fun and put on blast assholes that are bigoted or intolerant but you know that a certain portion of the audience doesn't get that and instead identifies with that asshole and the jokes play an entirely different way. It's hard to really get into a game when you know all the jokes about minorites will have some people nodding along and laughing.
 

RionaaM

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,852
It's sad to see this. There's a difference between making one joke at a minority's expense, and constantly making a mockery of them. This seems to be in really poor taste.

I'm having a difficult time believing that the person writing this article genuinely thought a South Park game was going to portray the trans experience in a positive light. I feel like people who've never even seen the show should have had a certain expectation going into this game.
It's true that South Park makes fun of everything, but they seem particularly aggressive on some topics. Going from this article, it seems that trans representation and identity is one of those.
 

Inco

Member
Oct 27, 2017
59
That sounds just like South Park, they exaggerate real-life issues (in this case the treatment of trans people) to show how shitty the world is. I don't think people should take offense, but then again I'm not trans, and don't personally know anyone who is.

As the author said, the experiences they're "exaggerating" are experiences that she (and other trans people) have lived through. Exaggerating issues for the purpose of satire requires actual exaggeration, not just repeating issues for chuckles. This, along with the television series' repeated treatment of trans people, clearly shows a pattern of Matt and Trey being transphobic cockbags.
 

Mondy

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,456
South Park for me always straddled that uncomfortable line with humor where it seems like it's written to make fun and put on blast assholes that are bigoted or intolerant but you know that a certain portion of the audience doesn't get that and instead identifies with that asshole and the jokes play an entirely different way. It's hard to really get into a game when you know all the jokes about minorites will have some people nodding along and laughing.

That sounds more like a commentary in and of itself about the stupidity of that audience. They're laughing along with being laughed at and they don't even notice.
 

anexanhume

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,913
Maryland
That sounds just like South Park, they exaggerate real-life issues (in this case the treatment of trans people) to show how shitty the world is. I don't think people should take offense, but then again I'm not trans, and don't personally know anyone who is.

It's different in execution and effect when placed in context. In this case, the trans status is the butt of the joke. The author/character's existence as a trans individual is made light of. This is in contrast to the difficulty slider, which pokes fun at the socioeconomic disadanvantages that black people face.

It's difficult to be disparaging to white people when making fun of them because you're not reeforcing any systemic disadvantage or prejudice against them.
 
OP
OP
Cream

Cream

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,316
While it's true South Park has made a lot of trans jokes I don't think it's disproportionate to other offensive jokes like say Jewish or Black people. If you have self esteem or mental issues you should not be anywhere near anything South Park related because it can be quite hurtful.
Yes, and we're criticizing south park for making all these jokes and being held up like it's some amazing thing, and all of it's very rabid defenders that just call our side babies or something.

There is so much better comedy deserving of a video game, that actually has the ability to be hilarious without shitting on marginalized groups. Like Bojack Horseman and Bob's Burgers, and even Archer who plays with this kind of punchy humor much more tactfully and intelligently.

This is the first game with this kind of ability to play as a trans character. Thats a bad thing.
 

Deleted member 6263

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
9,387
That sounds just like South Park, they exaggerate real-life issues (in this case the treatment of trans people) to show how shitty the world is. I don't think people should take offense, but then again I'm not trans, and don't personally know anyone who is.

This was how I interpreted those bits of the game as well. SP is full of ignorant people and it felt like they were making a point at how ignorant people could be. Now, whether that was Matt and Trey's intentions is debatable, but that's just how I saw it. I'm also not trans so maybe I just don't get it.
 
OP
OP
Cream

Cream

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,316
SP clearly took a swing and missed, but the article made me think about some of the limitations in handling these topics via a video game. Both my gf and I have been playing through the game and received the exact same comments from townspeople. As a result, we attributed the comments to the fact we're running around in a weird costume that makes gender, identity, etc. not very obvious. Secondly, should the red neck battle be only accessible to players who made their characters a particular race or transgender?

Do I think these things could be handled better? Sure, of course. But I do think it's a learning moment for the SP guys and other developers to identify where there are still gaps as they try to be more inclusive. Overall, I don't think the game was trying to be overly malicious, beyond the usual insensitivity of South Park.

So if you play as anyone but trans, you will be led to believe those insults are coming from the way your character chooses to express themselves and dress and act. But if they are trans, it's implied to be because of what they ARE. See the difference?
 

OrdinaryPrime

Self-requested ban
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
11,042
While it's true South Park has made a lot of trans jokes I don't think it's disproportionate to other offensive jokes like say Jewish or Black people. If you have self esteem or mental issues you should not be anywhere near anything South Park related because it can be quite hurtful.

Do people find such jokes funny? Do I just have a stick up my butt? Kinda scratching my head here.
 
OP
OP
Cream

Cream

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,316
This was how I interpreted those bits of the game as well. SP is full of ignorant people and it felt like they were making a point at how ignorant people could be. Now, whether that was Matt and Trey's intentions is debatable, but that's just how I saw it. I'm also not trans so maybe I just don't get it.
Okay so let's say that who you were, your identity and one of the defining qualities of you, whether it was being a man, your race, anything. Something you can't control, was HEAVILY discriminated against in the real world, to sometimes traumatizing level. You're called an abomination by many, your kind is killed just for existing all over the world and it's ignored. And there has NEVER been a video game where you can play as someone with your identity. And in the FIRST game that allows you to finally play as someone with your identity, and in a big superhero RPG no less, the discrimination is continued, many times over. For cheap jokes. You wouldn't be upset?
 

Mzril

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
435
The "thing" dialogue happens no matter what.

Here the player chooses cisgender male and the dialogue still happens at 2:50
 

JonnyDBrit

God and Anime
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,015
Okay so let's say that who you were, your identity and one of the defining qualities of you, whether it was being a man, your race, anything. Something you can't control, was HEAVILY discriminated against in the real world, to sometimes traumatizing level. You're called an abomination by many, your kind is killed just for existing all over the world and it's ignored. And there has NEVER been a video game where you can play as someone with your identity. And in the FIRST game that allows you to finally play as someone with your identity, and in a big superhero RPG no less, the discrimination is continued, many times over. You wouldn't be upset?

Or to put it another way, it's not just that it may or may not be satire in poor taste, but that such is going to be one of the few major, deliberately intended and commented on (compared to say, Saints Row) examples of a transgender protagonist... and it chose to integrate the frustrating aspects of that identity as the first thing it did with that. It would be another thing entirely if there were already a range of alternatives in contrast.
 

Imran

Member
Oct 24, 2017
6,559
I was made pretty uncomfortable with the PC principal thing and told the Ubi rep when I played it.

The game, and South Park in general, are lauded for being shock humor and you're the fool for not appreciating and loving it. It has an inborn defense for anything it may handle poorly and I felt like that would be true if I wrote about that in my preview.

It's not sick, it's just bad, and I wish we could have a larger discussion about South Park and stuff like this without people going "That's just South Park, man! You know what you're getting into!"
 

jph139

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,366
The Author clearly missed the point of the attacks of the rednecks outside the school. Regardless of what you choose, cisgender or otherwise, the rednecks are quite clearly portrayed as petty assholes who are looking for literally any excuse to be assholes. That seems pretty on point as far as I'm concerned.
That's the thing though - in the real world, "rednecks" driving around town looking for trouble aren't going to react identically to a white cis boy and to a black trans girl. Yeah, they're assholes. And we all know assholes. But the way a transwoman is treated by an asshole on the street isn't equivalent to the way a cisman (which I am) is treated, in severity or regularity. The game seems to be putting it all in one bucket.

The only meaningful difference South Park seems to have put into those experiences is how the townspeople treat you, which is, uhh... not kindly. I mean, the author is definitely a bit naive for thinking they'd be getting anything different from a South Park game, but she's welcome to complain about it all the same.
 

Falconbox

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,600
Buffalo, NY
I mean, this is South Park in a nutshell. For 20+ years now, they've made jokes about literally every demographic they can think of. Doesn't matter if it's race, religion, nationality, location (ie: Southerners), gender, political leaning, etc.

I think it's kind of missing the point if you're getting upset over South Park, since that's exactly what they're aiming to do. Make crass jokes. The good thing is that they never really stick with one target. If you feel like you're the target of a set of jokes and don't find it funny, wait a week or two and an episode will be poking fun at an entirely new group which you will find funny.
 

newmoneytrash

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
8,981
Melbourne, Australia
While it's true South Park has made a lot of trans jokes I don't think it's disproportionate to other offensive jokes like say Jewish or Black people. If you have self esteem or mental issues you should not be anywhere near anything South Park related because it can be quite hurtful.
I think the difference is that within that world there are still positive representations of Jewish and Black people. The same cannot be said for trans people
 
Oct 25, 2017
972
I was made pretty uncomfortable with the PC principal thing and told the Ubi rep when I played it.

The game, and South Park in general, are lauded for being shock humor and you're the fool for not appreciating and loving it. It has an inborn defense for anything it may handle poorly and I felt like that would be true if I wrote about that in my preview.

It's not sick, it's just bad, and I wish we could have a larger discussion about South Park and stuff like this without people going "That's just South Park, man! You know what you're getting into!"
I agree 100%.

I make terrible jokes too. I don't focus them on a minority of a minority.

That's just... being a bad person.
 

Deleted member 6263

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
9,387
Okay so let's say that who you were, your identity and one of the defining qualities of you, whether it was being a man, your race, anything. Something you can't control, was HEAVILY discriminated against in the real world, to sometimes traumatizing level. You're called an abomination by many, your kind is killed just for existing all over the world and it's ignored. And there has NEVER been a video game where you can play as someone with your identity. And in the FIRST game that allows you to finally play as someone with your identity, and in a big superhero RPG no less, the discrimination is continued, many times over. For cheap jokes. You wouldn't be upset?

Cream, please don't get me wrong. I totally understand why people would be upset. I'm a brown kid who was heavily discriminated against after 9/11. Plenty of bullying (physical and mental) for years. Even in my career people have made jokes about my skin color. Like full on managers of multi-million dollar corporations. And South Park made plenty of fun of people like me. So I get it, for sure!

All I was saying was that this was my interpretation of how the game had set transgender people up. I doubt I'm right about their intentions but I was looking at it in a way that other people might see it.
 

TheWickedSoul

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,156
It sucks that this was a terrible "inclusion", but coming from South Park and Ubisoft, there wasn't alot of faith of it being good to begin with. Hopefully down the line there be games that include everyone and it is dealt with passion and not just trying to shoehorn anything in. Video games are fantastic and everyone should be able to see themselves in a protag.
 

Mzril

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
435
Also if I'm not mistaken the lines

"You've got big raisins for a boy" and "You're pretty for a boy" happen if you choose cisgendered female as well (So the kids just assume you're a boy because of Stick of Truth continuity). Doesn't that mean the dialogue tree doesn't take into account rather you chose trans or cis but rather only the gender you declare you are? Isn't this what the community wants? To be treated equally?