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Waypoint: When I Visited South Park As A Trans Woman, The Joke Was On Me
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OP
OP
People who keep saying this keep missing the point.
South Park is a very popular series and this is the FIRST video game of note on consoles where you can choose trans as the option. And it's not "poking fun". This is very seriously, debilitating stuff in the real world. And we have to stop letting people get away with this stuff.
There's also probably a discussion worth having over how South Park has been around for so long that it's gone from being anti-establishment to being the establishment, with its viewership taking a show that now spent over twenty years railing against the idea of sacred cows and turning it into a sacred cow in its own right.
But those jokes get repeated by their fans, often missing the context of what the joke may or may not be trying to tell people. Once that 'joke' is out there, there's no taking it back. It doesn't actually go away just because a week passed. As grandwizorb put it, South Park's humor straddles a very uncomfortable line where the joke and the message are blurred enough that even if something isn't intended to be mean spirited, it can be taken that way because of how flatly the content is presented. When that happens, is the joke really all that funny? We should not excuse things that can be extremely harmful and perpetuate bigotry, even if it is an accident. Humor is not, and never has been, exempt from criticism.
Funny you'd mention a transphobe comic like gervais in a thread like this
The point that a lot of people seem to be missing is that the humor here at the expense of trans people didn't come off as satire, didn't come off as a silly exaggeration, because it's just a repeat of what trans people go through on a daily basis. It's possible to satirize these kinds of scenarios, but to the author of this piece, the "jokes" here hit too close to home and unfortunately missed the mark of humor that South Park is able to nail for other demographics. It's the difference between "Hey look at this shitty thing that happened to you. Isn't it hilarious?" and "Look at how ridiculous this is that stuff like this happens" that South Park failed to get to here.
If the reception to this is anything like what happened when the pre-release trailer represented a dead woman as a racist caricature fish in an attempt to mock her son, prepare to have every great point made in the OP ignored in favor of "But they make fun of everyone" repeated again and again.
As if that somehow is an actual argument against criticizing the jokes they make.
As if that somehow is an actual argument against criticizing the jokes they make.
She addressed this point clearly in the article, noting that this excuse is insufficient in light of the disproportionate way transgender individuals are targeted. That's to say nothing about the subtext of the article, which is that from the perspective of someone who is trans, playing this game is an extremely uncomfortable experience.
If your goal as a South Park writer is to expose the many ways our culture is transphobic, shouldn't your game be more uplifting if you're trans?
Just because something is purposely shitty doesn't mean you can't call it out for being shitty. The worst part about South Park is that any time you try and have a critical conversation about something within it people will just dismiss it as missing the point. I get the point, but that doesn't mean their point can't still be bad
I 100% endorse this reply. I was listening to the same episode and felt that they (Kotaku) nailed it.
That and "coon" is very mordern still. I havent really watched South Park much since middle school, so when I heard that Cartman's character in the game's name was "Coon", my immediate thought was that the game was probably made by white people who only associate with other white people.
Can you name indie games in which you can? Maybe don't if it is going to spoil it.
I can't speak for Parker and Stone but I would've thought the idea was they want to show a potentially trans player that they're acutely aware of the shit they go through in their lives, not necessarily that they're joining in with the pointing and laughing. You have to remember, the actual town of South Park is depicted (especially in this game) as a debaucherous shithole full of assholes. Having an openly trans character walk down the street and not cop harassment wouldn't fit the setting, frankly.
I mean it seems you more have a problem with the industry here. It isn't South Park's fault no other game maker has made trans an option in character creation.
Yeah this does seem like SP absurdist style humor that just missed the mark/didn't realize how real it is. Which is bad. I don't think Matt and Trey have any contempt towards trans people. They are probably just widely ignorant to their day to day lives.
These feel like pretty important factors as well. One of the problems with satire is that people may take the subjects as what make the gag 'funny', rather than the context or the actual intent of the joke. Hence so many people have come to believe that Blazing Saddles is a film that 'couldn't be made today' because it offends everyone, when in reality the vast bulk of the 'offensive' humour is aimed squarely at making the bigots the butt of the joke. It doesn't change that Blazing Saddles itself has little sympathy for such people, but but that simply isn't the extent of its influence.
So in the case of South Park, even if the intent of the joke here is read as 'Rednecks are bigoted idiots looking for any reason to hate on people', it's not hard to see how some might read it simply as 'jokes about trans people are funny', which is a whole other can of worms and one they could have taken greater care about.
I don't think it's about being "morally superior". I think they just do it because it's funny and successful. By targeting every group they can, someone somewhere will find it funny. It's no surprise that the show is still massively successful after 20 years.
It's ironic, indeed. At some point it stops being transgressive and becomes the norm, and I think South Park crossed that line long ago.
OP
OP
But it IS South Park and Ubisoft's fault that they decided "we're going to be the first studio to let you play as a trans character....and you are going to have to face ALL the discrimination you face in the real world! and it'll be HILARIOUS"
AGAIN. The lines let's welcome this "thing" to our town happen NO MATTER WHICH CHOICE YOU MAKE.
The lines "You've got big raisins for a boy" and "You're pretty for a boy" happen if you choose cisgendered female as well, implying that due to the events of SoT (and the lack of a gender option) the guys thought you were a girl the whole time. Mr.Mackey's reactions confirm this.
Explain to me how a dialogue tree that doesn't consider trans or cis options and treats you for who you declare to be is discriminatory.
I'm a cis dude who played the game as a trans girl. I'd say it actually gave me a bit of perspective on how annoying it is to be misgendered. I couldn't imagine how infuriating it would be in real life.
I totally get why trans people would have problems with this though.
I totally get why trans people would have problems with this though.
On that note, I doubt the majority of people who bought SP are trans, so maybe it will be eye opening for them? I don't know, I already said I can see how this is absurdism that missed the mark. Do you think they shouldn't have included the option since they are the first ones to do so?
OP
OP
You're completely missing the point! Any person that plays the game and chooses trans is going to think they are being discriminated against because of what the ARE. It's not equivalent!
How about the fact that the game still calls you he/him in cutscenes despite playing a trans girl?
Not at all. I'm more commenting on the premise of the article. Any oppressed group is going to have a bad time with South Park.
OP
OP
Which is why we are criticizing it, and it's position as a beloved game series that is known for having the first and last word on many social issues for many of its fans, and doing this shit, in 2017, when many much better properties have shown you don't have to resort to this BS to make comedy.
How about the fact that it's the same if you play a cisgendered girl? They refer you as dude and him. Don't believe me?
18:55
OP
OP
...is this supposed to be a rebuttal in your favor? That's bad too.
I wonder if it's even possible to have a positive representation of transgender people when it's a character customization choice. I feel like it would always at best be neutral and at worst incredibly offensive. I can definitely see many stories worth telling with a preset protagonist that is trans, but I really have no idea how a game could handle that as a choice positively.
Not making excuses for South Park, btw, never gave a shit about it, just curious about this part of the discussion that came up, about it being probably the first game that allows you to choose to be a transgender character.
Not making excuses for South Park, btw, never gave a shit about it, just curious about this part of the discussion that came up, about it being probably the first game that allows you to choose to be a transgender character.
1. Yes
2. No
Humor is subjective. Just because you don't find it funny doesn't mean you "have a stick up your butt." Don't put yourself down like that. All it means is that South Park (or maybe just a portion of South Park's jokes), aren't for you. Nothing wrong with that.
Hey, there's tons of popular comedies (looking at you Rick & Morty) that I don't find funny. I find South Park hysterical though.
OP
OP
If this post doesn't sum up the entire problem, then I don't know what does.
It's very sad that a POSITIVE portrayal of trans characters, is unrealistic.
So are you getting upset that two groups would have different reactions to the same line? Dehumanising a man doesn't have the same impact as dehumanising a woman or trans person because women and trans people already are the brunt of a lot of dehumanising comments. It's the same thing as presenting a watermelon and bucket of fried chicken as a housewarming gift to new neighbours, which would be overwhelmingly received more critically if the new neighbours were black, while doing so for white neighbours wouldn't be as much of an issue.
It's called "knowing your audience", and it's clear that the devs and writers didn't know their audience when they made this option available.
OP
OP
Exactly.
You could have a tradition of giving all of your friends a watermelon at Christmas, because of an inside joke from years ago that everyone loved. But if you gave it to a black friend, would they be wrong to feel incredibly offended? Hell no! You'd be an ass for not having more tact.
Ok, so you're saying that despite the developers understanding the continuity issues of Stick of Truth's lack of gender choices, thus forcing characters to continue believing that you're a guy/king, giving players a way to circumvent this issue by being able to choose their gender in the new game, using Mr.Mackey's call to your parents as an aside to the player about this whole issue, then making the dialogue tree not discriminate between the choices between cis and trans is problematic?
this is a great article, thanks to jennifer for taking the time to dissect this tiring bullshit.
if y'all aren't happy with the article for actually addressing the game's failure in representing trans women, you can read literally every other review of this game.
it sucks so much that south park gets constantly gets a pass on this stuff because they've been doing it so long.
if y'all aren't happy with the article for actually addressing the game's failure in representing trans women, you can read literally every other review of this game.
it sucks so much that south park gets constantly gets a pass on this stuff because they've been doing it so long.
A positive portrayal by South Park is unrealistic. Other devs will have to take the lead on this issue:
Poor example.
Providing every friend receives a watermelon. However, if only the "black" friend receives said watermelon...different story.
I applaud the fact that no matter what gender or race you choose, the game treats you equally shitty. Its probably not the best idea to come into a game like South Park looking for positive depictions of virtually ANYTHING.
What do you think of Miranda in Watch_Dogs 2? i thought she was a positive trans character
Ok let me ask this for an example then, if the dehumanizing dialogue/redneck boss fight only happened in the specific instance that players selected trans and the developers outright came and said "This is to capture the prejudice that these people feel in their lives" and basically included these extra hardmode battles for that gender choice only, would this reflect better or worse?
Because I am becoming impossibly confused about if developers should attempt to address these issues by treating choices equally or doing stuff like the above.
Because I am becoming impossibly confused about if developers should attempt to address these issues by treating choices equally or doing stuff like the above.
My thinking with the "it's not discrimination if it's the same for everyone" is that it's a really weird veneer of progressiveness that isn't actually all that progressive. You could have gone with the options of:
1. Depicting the discrimination honestly to highlight that it happens in real life
2. Not including the discrimination at all
Instead you turn it into some "but it happens for everyone" thing, which belittles that this is an issue that trans people face specifically. Okay, you treated everyone equally, good for you, but you did so in a way that mocks people who aren't treated equally in real life.
1. Depicting the discrimination honestly to highlight that it happens in real life
2. Not including the discrimination at all
Instead you turn it into some "but it happens for everyone" thing, which belittles that this is an issue that trans people face specifically. Okay, you treated everyone equally, good for you, but you did so in a way that mocks people who aren't treated equally in real life.
I'm gonna have to agree with this and Patrice O Neil on this subject. Humor is very subjective and its not funny to everyone. These jokes might be terrible but I support their right to try their hand at such jokes. Mind you I also fully support anyone who wants to condemn Southparks Matt Stone & Trey Parker for making these jokes.
I would advice anyone to watch this video below ( and ignore the inflammatory title ) :
Patrice not only says that funny people should just be left to try to be funny, but also that not every joke works. In this case I'm sure there are plenty of people who find these specific jokes very distasteful. Yet I do support their rights to make these jokes.
By the way I fully support trans persons or anyone of a non binary gender.
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Yes, exactly this.
South Park is basically extremist-centrism.
OP
OP
As someone with a non-binary gender, for myself, yes, that would reflect better. And about the "being called a boy" thing, just because the last game did it, it doesn't make it okay that the sequel does it too! The entire point of being a girl is that you want to be, you know, seen as a girl.