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Deleted member 6949

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,786
South Park has been on way too long, and now Matt Stone and Trey Parker are these absurdly rich older dudes and basically everything comes off as punching down now. They should have cinched it up and moved on to new projects that don't require them to be permanently stuck in a 90's edgelord mindset.
 

Darryl M R

The Spectacular PlayStation-Man
Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,718
I mean i can but it doesn't really matter if you considered it ok or not, it wasn't meant in offense it was meant to shock. Compare it to someone like Jim Davidson who openly uses the n-word in a way explicity meant to offend black people, that i wouldnt consider ok.
So you are going to avoid addressing my post. Stop wasting my time talking in circle. It's not okay in either situation.
 

L Thammy

Spacenoid
Member
Oct 25, 2017
49,969
Why isn't it ok? Are you saying jokes now have to not make light of certain events or groups of people?

Lets have this little test
What if say, it was making fun of say...Trump supporters. Would you find it ok?
The show's humor is based off shock value and offensiveness. It's completely neutral, and takes a dig at everyone and anything relevant or not. If it were a show where it ONLY make fun of minorities or trans and not white or straight people THAN it would be a problem.

A joke often carries a message, like it or not, and if people believe that the message is harmful than people will evaluate the joke as harmful dependent on that.

I mean, sure, people are going to like jokes that agree with their politics more than jokes that disagree. But another difference between this and the situation that you outlined is that Trump supporters are straight white people are not particularly vulnerable, so making fun of them really doesn't have the effect that mocking people who are more likely to be victims of violence because of who they are will.
 

Inco

Member
Oct 27, 2017
59
Ok, I agree. However, the criticism I only see here is that it simply makes fun of transgendered people. I doubt your opinion would change it it were making fun of other types of people, like white christian poeple. If so, than it would kinda be double standards, no?

No, because white Christians aren't nearly as maligned by society as trans people are. White Christians aren't disowned by their parents or have trouble finding jobs or are killed because they're white Christians. Trans people face far more prejudice than white Christians do, and on a larger scale. No one is trying to regulate the bathroom habits of white Christians.
 

anyprophet

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
941
Ok, I agree. However, the criticism I only see here is that it simply makes fun of transgendered people. I doubt your opinion would change it it were making fun of other types of people, like white christian poeple. If so, than it would kinda be double standards, no?
no.

white cristian people aren't an oppressed and persecuted minority. they're they ones doing all of the oppression in this country.

the problem with every trans joke on south park ever is that the mere existence of the trans person is the punchline. there's no actual joke. no witty commentary. just "ew gross". it's offensive simply to be offensive. it's not clever or edgy or funny.
 

Kurri

Member
Oct 26, 2017
205
Ok, I agree. However, the criticism I only see here is that it simply makes fun of transgendered people. I doubt your opinion would change it it were making fun of other types of people, like white christian poeple. If so, than it would kinda be double standards, no?
>Transgendered

Transgender isn't a verb.

Anyways, no it wouldn't be a double standard.
 

Frozenprince

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
9,158
This is based on your perspective. There are others out there who find said caricature to be "wantonly hurtful" or whatever metric you want to use here.

The solution isn't to eliminate things that people happen to find offensive, it's for people to come to understand that being offended by things is a part of life and learning how to cope and manage those emotions is a skill essential for success and healthy development.
Being offended by things doesn't mean sit on your hands and do nothing to change them. Accepting that, essentially, "life is shitty get over it" really isn't healthy, or conducive to emotionally healthy living. As a queer dude with a hell of a lot of baggage in that department, "live is offensive that's just how it is" is probably the single worst life lesson I ever took to heart because it caused nothing but pain and self loathing to build for a long time before I realized it was BS.

Brushing aside offense and derogatory jokes as "just comedy, that's life" solves nothing and helps nothing move forward.

100 years ago this was comedy
black-and-white-2.jpg


Should black men and women have stayed silent and just accepted it's existence because "well it's just life, you're going to be offended by something"? Should they have allowed it's continued life because "well if you get rid of this, where does the slope end? Now you've white washed and sterilized all comedy"?

There has to be a line somewhere. Yes, that line changes from person, to person, because THAT is part of life. But yes, people can and should change things about what they do and how they act because of other people and their right to feel safe and respected, that is also part of life.
 

Ketkat

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,727

Brera

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
441
A lot of people miss the joke about South Park.

They're not taking the piss out of the subject...the joke is usually aimed at the ignorance of the characters if that makes sense.
 

JLP101

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,742
My opinion is going to be very unpopular here

If you know South Park is rude,crass humor that seeks to disrespect your gender/race/religion etc. which they are known to do almost every episode.....then you really should know what you are getting into. I never enjoyed South Park, my friends dragged me to see the movie and I may have been the only one who wasn't laughing. I did enjoy the first game but I know what South Park and I know what to expect. I feel like the person playing had widely unrealistic expectation from the South Park creators.
 

Frozenprince

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
9,158
If South Park episodes/games were written with the intention not to offend anybody, then it wouldn't be South Park at all. If you're particularly sensitive to their style of humor, which has been around 20+ years at this point, it seems like the logical thing to do would be to avoid the product.
I can avoid minstrelry as well.

And their "style" of humor has changed radically since the inception of their show, look at the earlier seasons and how farcical it all was compared to now. Sensitivity is not the same as outright hatred, wanting them to do better and finding fault in one or several aspects of their humor is not just wanting to brush it all aside.
 

Blyr

Member
Oct 27, 2017
272
Even if the comments are present for all genders that doesn't change the premise that every trans person playing this game for the first time would likely read those comments the same way the author did. It's not on them to play the game multiple times, the devs should be aware of how the jokes will be read.
Exactly this, context matters a lot.

What if say, it was making fun of say...Trump supporters. Would you find it ok?
Is making fun of the current president of the United States, and an someone who has been shown to be an incredibly disgusting individual, ok? Uh, yes, it is. Is it okay to make fun of people who have to deal with constant hate, trauma, and abuse on a daily basis, for simply existing?

Also, "you guys this is just south park!" isn't an excuse. If someone spent their entire life spouting hateful garbage, that doesn't suddenly make it okay because "well that's just how they are! Just don't talk to them if you don't want to hear it!" How about no, how about calling them out on their bullshit until they finally get the hint that it is not okay. If South Park wants to make commentary about the state of the US, or other political commentaries in a way that exposes these issues and provides insight as to why it's bad? More power to them. If they want to simply hate on minorities and continue to normalize their dehumanization all for the sake of ""jokes""? That is not okay. If they don't know how to handle this subject with the proper tact and respect that it deserves, then they should just stick to making their gradeschool poop jokes.

Also, for everyone who finds this kind of thing funny, you really need to take a step back and ask yourself WHY you think it's funny. What about these jokes tickles you? Why does this appeal to you? Do some digging and reflect on it.
 

Biggui4yew

Permanently banned for using a prohibited email.
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
91
How about you make a joke saying the n-word and ask me if it's okay.
It depends on the joke. There's dark/offensive humor, which is intentionally getting the person to be offended or shocked. It doesn't work to the overly sensitive, but it can crack a laugh to others.
 

Frozenprince

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
9,158
It's not just that trans people are the butt of the joke. Nobody is immune from being the butt of a joke.

The issue is that trans stereotypes are used, even if "you little abomination" is used if you're a cis-male in the game, the very fact that these very real, very painful slurs that happen in the real world permeate your experience. Being called an abomination isn't a joke, it's just hurtful.
 

Deleted member 15326

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,219
My opinion is going to be very unpopular here

If you know South Park is rude,crass humor that seeks to disrespect your gender/race/religion etc. which they are known to do almost every episode.....then you really should know what you are getting into. I never enjoyed South Park, my friends dragged me to see the movie and I may have been the only one who wasn't laughing. I did enjoy the first game but I know what South Park and I know what to expect. I feel like the person playing had widely unrealistic expectation from the South Park creators.

This is actually a very common opinion
 

Darryl M R

The Spectacular PlayStation-Man
Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,718
It depends on the joke. There's dark/offensive humor, which is intentionally getting the person to be offended or shocked. It doesn't work to the overly sensitive, but it can crack a laugh to others.

So only someone that is overly sensitive would find issue with the n-word being used in a joke? Your posts come off as dense and disingenuous. The notion that I need to be a weeping, fragile heart to find issues with a joke is straight garbage.

And it seems that you won't take up my offer on asking me.
 

Frozenprince

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
9,158
It depends on the joke. There's dark/offensive humor, which is intentionally getting the person to be offended or shocked. It doesn't work to the overly sensitive, but it can crack a laugh to others.

I do find it odd that we're trying to use sensitivity as A) a sign of weakness and B) as if it has any bearing on this at all.

One does not need to be overly sensitive in order to not like the N-word being used as a joke. Shit I don't let anybody use that word in my presence, period.
 

Peacemillian

Member
Oct 25, 2017
635
Exactly this, context matters a lot.


Is making fun of the current president of the United States, and an someone who has been shown to be an incredibly disgusting individual, ok? Uh, yes, it is. Is it okay to make fun of people who have to deal with constant hate, trauma, and abuse on a daily basis, for simply existing?

Also, "you guys this is just south park!" isn't an excuse. If someone spent their entire life spouting hateful garbage, that doesn't suddenly make it okay because "well that's just how they are! Just don't talk to them if you don't want to hear it!" How about no, how about calling them out on their bullshit until they finally get the hint that it is not okay. If South Park wants to make commentary about the state of the US, or other political commentaries in a way that exposes these issues and provides insight as to why it's bad? More power to them. If they want to simply hate on minorities and continue to normalize their dehumanization all for the sake of ""jokes""? That is not okay. If they don't know how to handle this subject with the proper tact and respect that it deserves, then they should just stick to making their gradeschool poop jokes.

Also, for everyone who finds this kind of thing funny, you really need to take a step back and ask yourself WHY you think it's funny. What about these jokes tickles you? Why does this appeal to you? Do some digging and reflect on it.

What i find funny about South Park is the same thing i've always found funny about South Park, the way it highlights the absolute ignorance and absurdity of its characters. Its very rare a joke is made on South Park that isn't using the ignorance of a specific character or group of characters as the punchline. That's where the comedy comes from.
 

Darryl M R

The Spectacular PlayStation-Man
Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,718
What i find funny about South Park is the same thing i've always found funny about South Park, the way it highlights the absolute ignorance and absurdity of its characters. Its very rare a joke is made on South Park that isn't using the ignorance of a specific character or group of characters as the punchline. That's where the comedy comes from.
The ignorance of a character as the punchline and the attributes of marginalized individuals as the props.

Did I get that correct?
 

Lonewulfeus

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,075
I just want to say, I'm pretty sure you get the Liberace line if you mix and match costume sets, I get it on my cisgendered male character all the time. However, the abomination dialog line is pretty gross even for South Park. Seems like they hit a little to close to reality rather than satire.
 

Biggui4yew

Permanently banned for using a prohibited email.
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
91
Trump supporters are straight white people are not particularly vulnerable, so making fun of them really doesn't have the effect that mocking people
Well, don't trump supporters get constantly mocked for being either stupid or red neck? I have a friend who voted for trump, and she is a very intelligent individual. While most trump supporters are white(small few are black, latino, etc) South Park makes fun of white people for being stupid, racists, and redneck. White people are vulnerable to jokes the same way.
 

Maximo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,154
Usually love South Park humor (well...most of it) and sometimes don't agree with the certain topics they handle, but this one in particular was handled really poorly. Being a clear example of why im so middle of the road when it comes to the Fractured But Whole, the overall writing and pacing is just *off* its not as good as the Stick Of Truth, the gender quest/topic and the Kayne joke which I actively choose to ignore the quest were..to be frank *shit* not funny and shows the dip in quality from its prequel.

Well, don't trump supporters get constantly mocked for being either stupid or red neck? I have a friend who voted for trump, and she is a very intelligent individual. While most trump supporters are white(small few are black, latino, etc) South Park makes fun of white people for being stupid, racists, and redneck. White people are vulnerable to jokes the same way.

Oh sweet christmas..
 

Kurri

Member
Oct 26, 2017
205
Gotta love being called overly sensitive by people offended by criticism of their favorite show/game
 

mac

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,308
It's not just that trans people are the butt of the joke. Nobody is immune from being the butt of a joke.

The issue is that trans stereotypes are used, even if "you little abomination" is used if you're a cis-male in the game, the very fact that these very real, very painful slurs that happen in the real world permeate your experience. Being called an abomination isn't a joke, it's just hurtful.

A lot of humor comes from truth. And it genuinely seems like it was used as a joke.
 

Lonewulfeus

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,075
Well, don't trump supporters get constantly mocked for being either stupid or red neck? I have a friend who voted for trump, and she is a very intelligent individual. While most trump supporters are white(small few are black, latino, etc) South Park makes fun of white people for being stupid, racists, and redneck. White people are vulnerable to jokes the same way.

White people in general aren't a marginalized group though, not even dumb rednecks.
 

Rackham

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,532
The author seems misinformed (especially with the "thing" comment being applied to anyone) and naive. I feel for trans people but an article like this feels like it's seething with faux rage. Someone on the first page even called this a BIG SUPERHERO RPG that makes fun of trans people. What?? Take a step back people.
 

Peacemillian

Member
Oct 25, 2017
635
The ignorance of a character as the punchline and the attributes of marginalized individuals as the props.

Did I get that correct?

Not especially, pretty much everything has been used a prop during South Parks life, and its usually the props that come off in a good light as the characters are shown to be in the wrong.
 

L Thammy

Spacenoid
Member
Oct 25, 2017
49,969
Well, don't trump supporters get constantly mocked for being either stupid or red neck? I have a friend who voted for trump, and she is a very intelligent individual. While most trump supporters are white(small few are black, latino, etc) South Park makes fun of white people for being stupid, racists, and redneck. White people are vulnerable to jokes the same way.

Take a minute - a full 60 seconds, no shortcuts - and think about if the mockery that your friend receives is actually on anywhere near the same level as having the very real possibility that you might be killed for what you are. Then respond to me with your thoughts.
 

Blyr

Member
Oct 27, 2017
272
What i find funny about South Park is the same thing i've always found funny about South Park, the way it highlights the absolute ignorance and absurdity of its characters. Its very rare a joke is made on South Park that isn't using the ignorance of a specific character or group of characters as the punchline. That's where the comedy comes from.
That would be fine and well if that's how it was handled in this game, but it isn't. Your character is derided and belittled for their identity, and the kids, who are supposed to be the contrast and point out the idiocy and guide the viewer towards a positive viewpoint, and to emphasize the ridiculous nature of the adults (who typically make these claims) simply ignore it for the most part, or are active participants (if I read correctly, they still call you he/him?)

It was a joke for the sake of belittling others, and instead of shining light on the issue, they simply brush it off because they got to make their joke and then it's relegated to the wayside. It feels like it was included simply for cheap shots, and wasn't well meaning or thought out beyond "hey wouldn't it be funny if you could be trans?" as if there's something inherently humorous about it.
 

Frozenprince

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
9,158
The scene where they even introduce your characters gender isn't even a joke based on the gender, it's meant to be "oh yeah in the last game we didn't give you that option so haha, sorry gang" but... not everybody played the last game.

Remove that context, and there's no "joke" there, it's just a 9 year old kid sitting in a guidance counselors office having to explain their gender then having that counselor call their parents and go "Oh yeah, huh, okay, weird, sorry". It's really not a gag unless you have the context, which a lot of people won't, and is compounded when you return back to your house AFTER that quest to see your parents argue about your gender issues.

The writing really, really needed another pass through.
 

Darryl M R

The Spectacular PlayStation-Man
Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,718
The author seems misinformed (especially with the "thing" comment being applied to anyone) and naive. I feel for trans people but an article like this feels like it's seething with faux rage. Someone on the first page even called this a BIG SUPERHERO RPG that makes fun of trans people. What?? Take a step back people.
Can you do me a favor and define what the phrase "faux rage" means?

Not especially, pretty much everything has been used a prop during South Parks life, and its usually the props that come off in a good light as the characters are shown to be in the wrong.

So you are answering yes to my question.
 

kegkilla

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
106
Being offended by things doesn't mean sit on your hands and do nothing to change them. Accepting that, essentially, "life is shitty get over it" really isn't healthy, or conducive to emotionally healthy living. As a queer dude with a hell of a lot of baggage in that department, "live is offensive that's just how it is" is probably the single worst life lesson I ever took to heart because it caused nothing but pain and self loathing to build for a long time before I realized it was BS.

Brushing aside offense and derogatory jokes as "just comedy, that's life" solves nothing and helps nothing move forward.

100 years ago this was comedy
black-and-white-2.jpg


Should black men and women have stayed silent and just accepted it's existence because "well it's just life, you're going to be offended by something"? Should they have allowed it's continued life because "well if you get rid of this, where does the slope end? Now you've white washed and sterilized all comedy"?

There has to be a line somewhere. Yes, that line changes from person, to person, because THAT is part of life. But yes, people can and should change things about what they do and how they act because of other people and their right to feel safe and respected, that is also part of life.
The message isn't "life sucks get over it" it's "the world is full of people with their own unique experiences, beliefs and perspectives and they're often going to conflict with yours." The problem with your example is that it's a direct attack on a specific group of people whereas South Park has been lampooning all comers since the 90s. One has malicious intent, the other does not.
 

edungeon

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4
Brazil
Modern discourse is in a pretty shitty place when things like this are called 'extreme centrism'. This is plain old conservative humor: people with power seeing themselves as the default and making fun of everybody else (normally people historically without access to power). Tactless and humorless: best place for it is in the trash can.
 

Kurri

Member
Oct 26, 2017
205
Well, don't trump supporters get constantly mocked for being either stupid or red neck? I have a friend who voted for trump, and she is a very intelligent individual. While most trump supporters are white(small few are black, latino, etc) South Park makes fun of white people for being stupid, racists, and redneck. White people are vulnerable to jokes the same way.
Did you know that trans panic is a legal defense in 48 states? I just thought you should know.
 

Static

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
6,107
A lot of people miss the joke about South Park.

They're not taking the piss out of the subject...the joke is usually aimed at the ignorance of the characters if that makes sense.

From what I've seen though it doesn't do a good job of being parody. It just repeats at trans people the sort of thing they already experience, without doing anything with that. There's no moral of the story, no message, and unless I've missed it, no actual joke to speak of. It's like they wanted to write an edgy joke about how transphobia is bad but then forgot to write the actual joke. So all you're left with is the first part.

The fact that it gets pitched at all characters regardless of whether you choose boy or girl, trans or cis, doesn't really change the fact that it still gets pitched at trans characters. Treating a cis person with bizarro world transphobia doesn't make it okay to treat trans people with regular transphobia, because it doesn't do anything to change how that treatment affects the trans person.

I think. I don't know. I don't really know shit about this I just know I wasn't impressed by the South Park gender/trans choice thing when we saw it pre-release.
 

Jazz

Member
Oct 25, 2017
147
Canada
This is not okay. There is no place for "jokes" that make people like me feel shit about themselves. If they had portrayed those lines in a bad light it would probably be okay (for me), but (and correct me if I'm wrong, I am fairly ignorant of South Park) it seems to me that they are just being played off as jokes. But my right to be treated respectfully isn't a joke and I don't take very kindly to it being made fun of.
 

mac

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,308
It feels like it was included simply for cheap shots, and wasn't well meaning or thought out beyond "hey wouldn't it be funny if you could be trans?" as if there's something inherently humorous about it.

Does the author even suggest the trans option was out of malice? That seems like some serious reaching to say they only allowed the option to mock trans people.

This is not okay. There is no place for "jokes" that make people like me feel shit about themselves. If they had portrayed those lines in a bad light it would probably be okay (for me), but (and correct me if I'm wrong, I am fairly ignorant of South Park) it seems to me that they are just being played off as jokes. But my right to be treated respectfully isn't a joke and I don't take very kindly to it being made fun of.

That's largely the entire point of south park.
 

Peacemillian

Member
Oct 25, 2017
635
That would be fine and well if that's how it was handled in this game, but it isn't. Your character is derided and belittled for their identity, and the kids, who are supposed to be the contrast and point out the idiocy and guide the viewer towards a positive viewpoint, and to emphasize the ridiculous nature of the adults (who typically make these claims) simply ignore it for the most part, or are active participants (if I read correctly, they still call you he/him?)

It was a joke for the sake of belittling others, and instead of shining light on the issue, they simply brush it off because they got to make their joke and then it's relegated to the wayside. It feels like it was included simply for cheap shots, and wasn't well meaning or thought out beyond "hey wouldn't it be funny if you could be trans?" as if there's something inherently humorous about it.

If you read the thread you'll see that your character isn't derided and belittled for their gender or sex, the comments from the game that were in the article were all generic.
 

Darryl M R

The Spectacular PlayStation-Man
Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,718
Well, don't trump supporters get constantly mocked for being either stupid or red neck? I have a friend who voted for trump, and she is a very intelligent individual. While most trump supporters are white(small few are black, latino, etc) South Park makes fun of white people for being stupid, racists, and redneck. White people are vulnerable to jokes the same way.
Man I sure do recall those Trump supporters committing suicide because of how society views them. Oh and those Trump supporters that are murdered for expressing themselves.

Wait. No I do not. Context matters. South Park punched down, way down, and people are defending this by saying, "Well they do it to everyone." That's not a good defense or argument. It's a non-argument.
 

Rackham

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,532
Can you do me a favor and define what the phrase "faux rage" means?



So you are answering yes to my question.
Going into a game like South Park and expecting anything appropriate. The first quote reads as something ridiculous that Mr. Mackey has done as a school counselor. The same guy who was first introduced passing weed around to the students.
 

Frozenprince

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
9,158
From what I've seen though it doesn't do a good job of being parody. It just repeats at trans people the sort of thing they already experience, without doing anything with that. There's no moral of the story, no message, and unless I've missed it, no actual joke to speak of. It's like they wanted to write an edgy joke about how transphobia is bad but then forgot to write the actual joke. So all you're left with is the first part.

The fact that it gets pitched at all characters regardless of whether you choose boy or girl, trans or cis, doesn't really change the fact that it still gets pitched at trans characters. Treating a cis person with bizarro world transphobia doesn't make it okay to treat trans people with regular transphobia, because it doesn't do anything to change how that treatment affects the trans person.

I think. I don't know. I don't really know shit about this I just know I wasn't impressed by the South Park gender/trans choice thing when we saw it pre-release.
I've played about 8 hours so far and unless there's a biiiiiiig swerve coming soon, there isn't any message behind these peoples shit behavior other than 'well they're shit people what do you expect them to not call you names'? And these aren't the named characters, it's just random generic NPC's calling you hurtful shit. These are props, they exist solely to call you hurtful shit, and receive no comeuppance or lesson.

Reminds me of Blazing Saddles, where the lesson is "the old timey racist people are idiots who learn that being racist is wrong", they use people saying hurtful shit over and over to subvert expectations, that doesn't happen here (so far as I've seen). I don't see any real connective tissue for the inevitable "Stan and Kyle give a speech at the end about gender issues" thing here.
 

Blyr

Member
Oct 27, 2017
272
Does the author even suggest the trans option was out of malice? That seems like some serious reaching to say they only allowed the option to mock trans people.
Given the context I've seen, that's certainly how it feels, to me, at least. I won't speak on behalf of the author, but as a trans person it definitely feels like it's little more than a repeat of the same joke I hear regularly, about how "funny" it is to be trans. I can't speak to the creators intent behind the joke, but that is most certainly how it read to me.

If you read the thread you'll see that your character isn't derided and belittled for their gender or sex, the comments from the game that were in the article were all generic.
As I said before, context matters. Had I played the game as intended, I would have never known it was generic, I would simply feel I was being insulted because of my identity, and my feelings wouldn't change. This is a very sensitive subject that was handled incredibly poorly, and it's frustrating that one of the few times you're allowed to be trans in a videogame, you have to allow yourself to be called an "abomination", have uncomfortable interactions with your parents, etc.
 
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