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Darryl M R

The Spectacular PlayStation-Man
Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,721
Going into a game like South Park and expecting anything appropriate. The first quote reads as something ridiculous that Mr. Mackey has done as a school counselor. The same guy who was first introduced passing weed around to the students.
So if South Park had a scene where the joke was just to call Token the n-word would it be "faux rage" for someone to make an article on that scene?

Your post sounds like a defense for a bad joke. It wasn't clever and it wasn't a parody of anything. So why is it "faux rage" to call it out. Is South Park immune to critique on scripted lines that fail to be comedic?

Stand up comics get critiqued all the time for making jokes that punch down and come off as mean spirited.
 

Biggui4yew

Permanently banned for using a prohibited email.
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
91
White Christians aren't disowned by their parents or have trouble finding jobs or are killed because they're white Christians.
I might have to disagree on you with that. Many white countries around the world persecute Christians, Muslims, etc. Also, I've heard news reports of bosses intentionally not giving jobs to people because they were Christian.
 

Static

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
6,110
I don't see any real connective tissue for the inevitable "Stan and Kyle give a speech at the end about gender issues" thing here.
See that's the sort of thing that could potentially have sort of salvaged this. I remember the episode where Stan made friends with a Mormon but then was too much of a dick to stay friends with a Mormon and then at the end of the episode he learned his lesson and saw what an ass he'd been. But I didn't expect that to happen here. It seemed too incidental and like it wasn't going to get that sort of treatment. Too bad. Should've left it out or left it at Mackey's well meaning ignorance.
 

Frozenprince

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
9,158
If you read the thread you'll see that your character isn't derided and belittled for their gender or sex, the comments from the game that were in the article were all generic.
It ultimately doesn't matter if it's generic or not. If you're trans, and playing through the game as trans, you're going to identify and recognize these things, whether they were meant to be specific to that character or not.
 

Darryl M R

The Spectacular PlayStation-Man
Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,721
What is trans panic?
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=trans+panic

"Gay and trans "panic" defense tactics ask a jury to find that a victim's sexual orientation or gender identity is to blame for the defendant's excessively violent reaction. The perpetrator claims that the victim's sexual orientation or gender identity not only explain – but excuse – their loss of self-control and subsequent assault of an LGBT individual. By fully or partially acquitting the perpetrators of crimes against LGBT victims, these defenses imply that LGBT lives are worth less than others."

First link
 

mac

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,308
It ultimately doesn't matter if it's generic or not. If you're trans, and playing through the game as trans, you're going to identify and recognize these things, whether they were meant to be specific to that character or not.

The sounds like one reason why games have and will resist having trans be an option.
 

Darryl M R

The Spectacular PlayStation-Man
Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,721
Is there a fallacy to describe widening your discussion to include a global perspective?
 

Dynamite Cop

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,002
California
South Park defense force is strong with its everlasting, "But it's South Park."
Sorry, I should've made it clear that I'm not defending South Park or its creators. My point was that they've always had a shitty style of "humor". I'm also considering stuff like Basketball. I've never been a fan of South Park and its white frat bro style humor. I just don't understand how someone can take offense to this new game as if this type of insensitivity is new. Is it okay? No, it's annoying. But what you can do is not support the creators and publishers of the title.
 

Hecht

Blue light comes around
Administrator
Oct 24, 2017
9,735
All right, everyone. I don't know if you've noticed a couple red bars running around here, but this is a rather sensitive topic. Let's try to keep the discussions here intellectually honest. If you can't, there are plenty of other threads in which to talk about something else. Keep it civil.
 

L Thammy

Spacenoid
Member
Oct 25, 2017
50,046

See:

A joke often carries a message, like it or not, and if people believe that the message is harmful than people will evaluate the joke as harmful dependent on that.

I mean, sure, people are going to like jokes that agree with their politics more than jokes that disagree. But another difference between this and the situation that you outlined is that Trump supporters are straight white people are not particularly vulnerable, so making fun of them really doesn't have the effect that mocking people who are more likely to be victims of violence because of who they are will.

No, because white Christians aren't nearly as maligned by society as trans people are. White Christians aren't disowned by their parents or have trouble finding jobs or are killed because they're white Christians. Trans people face far more prejudice than white Christians do, and on a larger scale. No one is trying to regulate the bathroom habits of white Christians.

no.

white cristian people aren't an oppressed and persecuted minority. they're they ones doing all of the oppression in this country.

the problem with every trans joke on south park ever is that the mere existence of the trans person is the punchline. there's no actual joke. no witty commentary. just "ew gross". it's offensive simply to be offensive. it's not clever or edgy or funny.

White people in general aren't a marginalized group though, not even dumb rednecks.

Take a minute - a full 60 seconds, no shortcuts - and think about if the mockery that your friend receives is actually on anywhere near the same level as having the very real possibility that you might be killed for what you are. Then respond to me with your thoughts.

Not even remotely. White, straight, cisgender men don't suffer the same slings and arrows that black people, trans people, gay people, or women do, and to claim otherwise is to be blind to the basic structures of Western society.

Did you know that trans panic is a legal defense in 48 states? I just thought you should know.

Man I sure do recall those Trump supporters committing suicide because of how society views them. Oh and those Trump supporters that are murdered for expressing themselves.

Wait. No I do not. Context matters. South Park punched down, way down, and people are defending this by saying, "Well they do it to everyone." That's not a good defense or argument. It's a non-argument.[/QUOTE

For the record, every single post I quoted here is directed at you. Did you receive alerts when you were quoted?
 
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Rackham

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
8,532
So if South Park had a scene where the joke was just to call Token the n-word would it be "faux rage" for someone to make an article on that scene?

Your post sounds like a defense for a bad joke. It wasn't clever and it wasn't a parody of anything. So why is it "faux rage" to call it out. Is South Park immune to critique on scripted lines that fail to be comedic?

Stand up comics get critiqued all the time for making jokes that punch down and come off as mean spirited.
Depends who's saying it and how's it's said honestly. Sometimes a lot of characters say really mean ignorant shit and it's funny because you end up thinking "man that's fucked up. Shouldn't be happening- especially with kids." And that's why I think the humor works sometimes, because these are supposed to be kids where fucked up shit keeps happening to them.

The joke isn't what they said but "that's fucked up they should not be saying that."

Just my opinion. I don't think South Park should be everywhere and sometimes it's not funny. I haven't even watched the last 3 seasons. I just don't think we should be looking at South Park for inclusiveness diversity.

And you brought up Tolkien, whose name is Tolkien because he's the Token black kid in the white town.
 

Static

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
6,110
Sorry, I should've made it clear that I'm not defending South Park or its creators. My point was that they've always had a shitty style of "humor". I'm also considering stuff like Basketball. I've never been a fan of South Park and its white frat bro style humor. I just don't understand how someone can take offense to this new game as if this type of insensitivity is new. Is it okay? No, it's annoying. But what you can do is not support the creators and publishers of the title.
Just because it's not surprising doesn't mean it's not disappointing. There's no reason why a writer shouldn't critique South Park.
 

kegkilla

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
106
Sorry, I should've made it clear that I'm not defending South Park or its creators. My point was that they've always had a shitty style of "humor". I'm also considering stuff like Basketball. I've never been a fan of South Park and its white frat bro style humor. I just don't understand how someone can take offense to this new game as if this type of insensitivity is new. Is it okay? No, it's annoying. But what you can do is not support the creators and publishers of the title.
What's your beef with Baseketball? Great movie.
 

Frozenprince

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
9,158
While it's true South Park has made a lot of trans jokes I don't think it's disproportionate to other offensive jokes like say Jewish or Black people. If you have self esteem or mental issues you should not be anywhere near anything South Park related because it can be quite hurtful.
I really don't think this poster was implying that trans people are mentally ill. Given their history.
 

Baji Boxer

Chicken Chaser
Member
Oct 27, 2017
11,380
Trans people are a disadvantaged heavily abused minority who were likely born trans. White Christians, in the U.S. at least, are the powerful advantaged majority. Also, religion is a philosophy open to criticism like any other idea. While I do think a line can be crossed in making fun of "white Christians", it's not a double standard because the occupy opposite ends of the power dynamic.
 

Biggui4yew

Permanently banned for using a prohibited email.
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
91
it is. Is it okay to make fun of people who have to deal with constant hate, trauma, and abuse on a daily basis, for simply existing?
No, that's terrible. But it doesn't mean that the show can't make a light hearted jokes of the people. Also, what you described can also be attached to a certain individual in the white house...But I digress, the point I'm trying to make is that South Park takes digs at everyone. To be honest, I heard worse from the show(also some that pertain to me) and I don't find them offensive at all. I feel people just need to take a step back and realize it's a cartoon meant to be offensive, and nothing more. It might be bad/unoriginal humor, but people find it funny for that exact reason.
 

Darryl M R

The Spectacular PlayStation-Man
Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,721
No, that's terrible. But it doesn't mean that the show can't make a light hearted jokes of the people. Also, what you described can also be attached to a certain individual in the white house...But I digress, the point I'm trying to make is that South Park takes digs at everyone. To be honest, I heard worse from the show(also some that pertain to me) and I don't find them offensive at all. I feel people just need to take a step back and realize it's a cartoon meant to be offensive, and nothing more. It might be bad/unoriginal humor, but people find it funny for that exact reason.
Light hearted you say. What's light hearted about the scripted line in the game?
 

Inco

Member
Oct 27, 2017
59
I feel people just need to take a step back and realize it's a cartoon meant to be offensive, and nothing more.

So, like, do you have anything new to say, because you've been beating this "south park is supposed to be offensive so it can't be criticised" drum for a while now and i'm wondering if your arms hurt yet
 

L Thammy

Spacenoid
Member
Oct 25, 2017
50,046
No, that's terrible. But it doesn't mean that the show can't make a light hearted jokes of the people. Also, what you described can also be attached to a certain individual in the white house...But I digress, the point I'm trying to make is that South Park takes digs at everyone. To be honest, I heard worse from the show(also some that pertain to me) and I don't find them offensive at all. I feel people just need to take a step back and realize it's a cartoon meant to be offensive, and nothing more. It might be bad/unoriginal humor, but people find it funny for that exact reason.

The President of the United States has been a celebrity for decades, has campaigned on particular platforms, and has various actions, inactions, and statements in office. It is absolutely bizarre to frame hatred of him as hatred for existing, rather than of his long and public history - something the average trans person does not have.

Speak honestly now. Do you think that if Donald Trump had not made the "grab them by the pussy" statement, had not platformed on xenophobia, had not been pointedly quiet when asked about his support by white supremacists, had not described Neo-Nazis as "very fine people", had not demonized people who oppose Neo-Nazis, that he would receive the exact same amount of hatred that he does now? That's a difference between the hatred Trump receives and the hatred trans people receive, which you are trying to equate.
 

Inco

Member
Oct 27, 2017
59
This is a breakdown of religious demographics. I'm looking for some sort of evidence that white Christians are indeed more advantaged than other groups.

Are you implying that having the vast majority of the legislative wing of the United States Government be part of a demographic isn't an advantage to the citizenry also within that demographic?
 

Kurri

Member
Oct 26, 2017
205
You could show someone a mountain of evidence, and they'll still claim you're wrong and that it's not real. No point wasting your time
 

PaulloDEC

Visited by Knack
Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,423
Australia
If you're arguing against this, you're really arguing against South Park in general, which is totally reasonable. People being either ignorant or bigoted assholes (or both) is a core part of the fabric of that world. When you take that away, it stops being South Park.
 

Chaeotic

Member
Oct 25, 2017
388
Now this is eye opening - I certainly had not considered how a trans associating person would feel in that exact moment, nor the circumstances around if. While Matt and Trey are often on the bleeding edge of what's right and wrong politically, it does seem this was a step too far in the wrong direction. My apologies to those here who feel the same way also, a game of all things should not bring feelings of anxiety up when our every day life surely does that enough :(
 

kegkilla

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
106
Are you implying that having the vast majority of the legislative wing of the United States Government be part of a demographic isn't an advantage to the citizenry also within that demographic?
No, I'm suggesting I would like to see some sort of statistical basis for such a declarative statement so I can reconcile my beliefs to the facts.
 

Darryl M R

The Spectacular PlayStation-Man
Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,721
This is a breakdown of religious demographics. I'm looking for some sort of evidence that white Christians are indeed more advantaged than other groups.

I think you should think to yourself why it would be extremely beneficial for policymakers to identify with you.

I could have provided you with links of white privilege, christian privilege, and other complex topics. But I kept it real basic with census information and the breakdown of Congress.
 

StoveOven

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
1,234
Okay, so you have no evidence, got it.
How about the fact that it's a country that was founded entirely by white Christians, has always (with one exception) been led by a white Christian, and a vast majority of the people who have served in public office throughout the years have been white Christians? This means that the people who set the laws of the nation and have some of the loudest megaphones have way more often than not done so from a white Christian perspective. People like me (a white Christian) naturally benefit from that fact.
 

Ms. Virion

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
186
Frozen Hoosier Wasteland
Damn. =/ I'd been looking forward to playing this due to being allowed to be trans in game, but I'm really not sure how comfortable I'd be playing a game where after making that distinction I'm called an 'abomination.' Even if it is uniform across playthroughs, that hits a bit too close to home for me.
 

Munti

Member
Oct 26, 2017
891
I'm watching casually sp and find it sometimes funny. And sometimes because of the shock humor that was already mentioned here (but not only because of it). I also don't get the feeling that the show is not always so primitive as I read in internet. However, I watched some videos on YouTube about the games and they're definitely more primitive.
I really feel sorry for the minorities (I'm also one) that feel being attacked by the jokes, but hope that people that like the show aren't seen as less valuable.

I really don't think this poster was implying that trans people are mentally ill. Given their history.
I also checked the red banners and I also have the sentiment that both posters weren't referencing the "mental illness" to trans people. Sorry for them if that would be the case :/.
 
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kegkilla

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
106
How about the fact that it's a country that was founded entirely by white Christians, has always (with one exception) been led by a white Christian, and a vast majority of the people who have served in public office throughout the years have been white Christians? This means that the people who set the laws of the nation and have some of the loudest megaphones have way more often than not done so from a white Christian perspective. People like me (a white Christian) naturally benefit from that fact.
You could look at how many presidents have been white Christians.

I think you should think to yourself why it would be extremely beneficial for policymakers to identify with you.

I could have provided you with links of white privilege, christian privilege, and other complex topics. But I kept it real basic with census information and the breakdown of Congress.

None of these historical anecdotes provide evidence for the claim. Show me something along the lines of a study concluding "white Christian households earn xx% more than nonreligious white households"
 

Frozenprince

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
9,158
None of these historical anecdotes provide evidence for the claim. Show me something along the lines of a study concluding "white Christian households earn xx% more than nonreligious white households"
Not that this has anything to do with the thread's issue but hey

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/10/11/how-income-varies-among-u-s-religious-groups/

And for fun

Among those denominations with the lowest household income are two historically black churches, the National Baptist Convention (9% live in households with incomes of at least $100,000) and the Church of God in Christ (9%). Jehovah's Witnesses also have low household income (4%). In all three of these groups, nearly half of all members have household incomes of less than $30,000 per year.
 

L Thammy

Spacenoid
Member
Oct 25, 2017
50,046
None of these historical anecdotes provide evidence for the claim. Show me something along the lines of a study concluding "white Christian households earn xx% more than nonreligious white households"

The President of the United States isn't an anecdote, it's literally the most powerful person in the damn country.
 

kegkilla

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
106
I'll pull links soon if someone doesn't beat me to it but:

  • White households earn more than their minority counterpart
  • Based on the US Census Pew Research says 70% of the US is Christian
So what is the logical conclusion?
That's where you're wrong kiddo:

https://www.statista.com/statistics...in-the-united-states-by-race-or-ethnic-group/

Asian households earn the most, by a wide margin.

So, by your backwards logic, let's starts mocking the Asian ethnicities.
 

Baji Boxer

Chicken Chaser
Member
Oct 27, 2017
11,380
Quick addendum to my previous comment: White Christians actually lost their majority status this year, though they are still the largest group (relative majority?). And of course they have a HUGE majority when it comes to political power.
 

Darryl M R

The Spectacular PlayStation-Man
Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,721
That's where you're wrong kiddo:

https://www.statista.com/statistics...in-the-united-states-by-race-or-ethnic-group/

Asian households earn the most, by a wide margin.

So, by your backwards logic, let's starts mocking the Asian ethnicities.
First, respond to this post: https://www.resetera.com/threads/wa...an-the-joke-was-on-me.1879/page-7#post-137566

Second, lol and now I can tell you are disingenuous kiddo. So let's back track to the original claim. "White Christians, in the U.S. at least, are the powerful advantaged majority."

You have yet to prove this false. Instead you ignored multiple links. So while you attempted to move the goal post, we are addressing the original claim now.